Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
Newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr Instagram
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 21, 2014, 01:02:53 AM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 642843
  • Total Topics: 48904
  • Online Today: 213
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Innocent victims?  (Read 5481 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cliff

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,645
Innocent victims?
« on: June 13, 2007, 02:13:56 PM »
As I read a thread yesterday, one particular comment stood out.  The comment was...

Quote
So you are saying that since you didn't find solace in God, then he punished you by infecting you with HIV.  Why is he punishing the women who have become innocently infected by their spouses?  Why is he punishing children who become infected due to it being passed on to them by their parent(s).?  Doesn't hold water for me.

Also, about a week ago a (gay) colleague of mine, made a comment that 'most gay men with HIV are whores, unlike women who have it.'

I wonder how many of us, (gay men in particular), buy into the notion that there are innocent victims and as gay men, we are excluded from that group (unlike children, hemophiliacs and heterosexual spouses)?


Offline Bucko

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,947
  • You need a shine, missy!
    • The Spin Cycle
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2007, 02:27:27 PM »
Good to see you around, Cliff-

It took me many years to come around the the viewpoint I have now, and it necessitated letting go of a lot of baggage regarding sex, mortality and the virus.

Quite simply, none of us here is any more or less guilty than anybody else, therefore no one is more innocent. We contracted HIV by the same mechanics by which we were conceived. It is the most natural and instinctive act we can do and the one most hardwired into the deepest reptilian part of our brain.

It is one of the most horrifying parts of the pandemic that in the Western world it is associated with society's "lesser desirables" and cruel and unreasonable value judgments have been attached to what is, after all, a medical issue. If it had started amongst blue-eyed blonde white women there would be none of the stigma we all live with.

Brent
(Who does not feel innocent, nor guilty, nor stupid: merely infected)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Dachshund

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,968
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2007, 02:42:19 PM »
Mixing morality with illness produces the attitude posted in other threads today. The ability to wish the demise of others...devaluing human life...creating a caste system of misery.

Guilt about gayness might be more devastating than the disease itself.

Offline Buckmark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,531
  • Would you like to tie me up with your ties, Ty?
    • Henry's Home Page
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2007, 02:56:36 PM »
Cliff,

I do believe there is a prevalent view that there are "innocent" victims of HIV/AIDS,
namely, those who were infected by any means other than sexual activity (or who
who were infected via sexual assault / rape).  The (usually) tacit implication
is that those who contracted HIV through sexual activity are somehow "guilty", and
by extension, less deserving of assistance or compassion.

I am certainly "guilty" of engaging in unsafe sex which led to my contracting HIV,
and I have to accept responsibility for that.  But less deserving of assistance or
compassion?  I believe some people's reasoning behind this is that we could have
prevented our infection with HIV if we had just "controlled" and "restrained" our
sexual behavior.  In other words, as Cliff's friend phrased it, people who contract
HIV via sex are just whores or sluts -- and some people believe they deserve to
suffer the consequences.

Yes, I absolutely could have prevented infection if I had made better decisions
when engaging in sexual activity.  But if everyone always acted rationally, there
would be *many* other diseases that could be prevented.  For example, diseases
often associated with obesity or smoking such as diabetes or cardiovascular disease
or emphysema or lung cancer. 

While it is a common enough view that folks should have controlled their eating or
smoking behavior to prevent these diseases, I think most people don't withhold
assistance or compassion to these folks.  I see that as an (arguably) more prevalent
with folks having HIV, because of our society's puritanical views on sex -- especially
gay sex. 

That may account for your friends' view that "gay men with HIV are whores".
I find it interesting that your friend, a gay man, makes that statement.  I sense
a bit of internalized self-loathing in such a statement.  I know some gays who
think that they would be more accepted by society if it weren't for HIV/AIDS
(I think they are fooling themselves).  Or perhaps your friend just isn't getting
any. ;)

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline jack

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,578
  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2007, 02:59:25 PM »
Never,ever thought of HIV in terms of innocent or guilty.  I guess I would feel terrible guilt if I infected someone,so now I am really confused.  I did feel like an incredible idiot when I discovered I was infected.

Offline xtente

  • Member
  • Posts: 52
Lets be real about this "innocent" thing
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2007, 03:12:07 PM »
first of all, although we are creatures of the flesh, we are creatures of the MIND as well. When we were young we were taught that if you touch the stove you get burned. AIDS have been out long enough that anyone having unprotected sex since we became aware of what AIDS is has no excuse to cry "innocent" when they are diagnosed HIV+.

Sure, when aids first came out and ppl didnt know what it was there WERE innocent victims. They had NO idea they were indulging in risky behavior. And there are STILL innocent victims like women who are lied to, and children who are born + and ppl who are raped. But when you do a thing that you KNOW is risky, such as unprotected sex, you cant blame that on "instinct" and your sex drive because the first law of nature is self preservation. Unprotected sex is NOT self preservation. It has equaled DEATH in times past.

So if ppl are still running around having unprotected sex, they probably have low self esteem and have yielded their mental wherewithall to sexual desire. They have become slaves to their flesh.  Those ppl are in no way "innocent" victims.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,314
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2007, 03:17:09 PM »
So you are essentially saying we "guilty" people have gotten what we deserve?


(Could have sworn you had written that you were outta here.  How shocked I am to find that isn't so.)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Lets be real about this "innocent" thing
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2007, 03:18:04 PM »
So if ppl are still running around having unprotected sex, they probably have low self esteem and have yielded their mental wherewithall to sexual desire. They have become slaves to their flesh.  Those ppl are in no way "innocent" victims.

I was liking your post until that sentence. I don't have low self esteem at all, yet I have been infected. I often yield to sexual desire, and that's my human nature. I was not angry nor desperate when I had unprotected sex, I knew the risks and I am not surprised to be infected. It was a stupid decision based on many different factors, the highest one getting convinced that I was immune to HIV.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,314
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2007, 03:25:03 PM »
I didn't like it start to finish.  I find it highly offensive to imply that anyone is "guilty" and therefore "deserving" of HIV.  This spiteful person should have been shown the door earlier today (in my opinion).
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline jack

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,578
  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2007, 03:30:22 PM »
Innocent of what? Guilty of what? Maybe stupidity but thats it.

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,314
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Let's see how many different subject lines we can create here!
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2007, 03:34:02 PM »
I love it when people heavily steeped in religious beliefs start telling others to "be real".
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 03:55:52 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Buckmark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,531
  • Would you like to tie me up with your ties, Ty?
    • Henry's Home Page
Re: Lets be real about this "innocent" thing
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2007, 03:43:14 PM »
I thought you had left.  Why have you returned?

But when you do a thing that you KNOW is risky, such as unprotected sex, you cant blame that on "instinct" and your sex drive because the first law of nature is self preservation. Unprotected sex is NOT self preservation. It has equaled DEATH in times past.

What about people who overeat, or smoke?  Are they "guilty" too?
They know it's bad for them and they do it anyway.

I guess what disturbs me here is your expectation of rational and perfect behavior.

Quote
So if ppl are still running around having unprotected sex, they probably have low self esteem and have yielded their mental wherewithall to sexual desire. They have become slaves to their flesh.  Those ppl are in no way "innocent" victims.

So if you were to establish that there are "guilty" victims, then what would you do with them?
Lock them up and throw away the key?  Deny them treatment? 
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline xtente

  • Member
  • Posts: 52
OK miker
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2007, 03:46:18 PM »
and buck, i am not saying that ppl are and need to be "perfect" I am simply saying that if you put yourself in a position to "get" something, then you have to deal with it. A person who overeats, KNOWING that it is bad for them, can expect to have health problems, be called names and be viewed by society in a certain way. Not saying that I condone that, but that is how it is.


To Miker: sorry if I offended you. I suppose maybe i have hidden rage because the person who gave it to me KNEW they frickin had it and told me they tested negative and whatnot. Hmmm. Maybe I should work on that!


And to the others, ALL people deserve compassion. NO ONE "deserves" this disease. Maybe at one time someone had a lapse in judgment (and i known PLENTY of ppl who had lapses and luckily came up hiv -) and one cant be faulted for that. We are all human.

I am going to try and tone "it" down and be more loving and compassionate in my assessments. We are all brothers and sisters in this.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2007, 03:51:01 PM by xtente »

Offline BKNYLivin

  • Member
  • Posts: 76
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2007, 03:51:38 PM »
I think people make mistakes(gay or straight), but society's attitude towards sexuality(and by that I don't mean homosexuality) affects the way people view those who contract HIV through sexual contact. Of course, some gay men have low self-esteem(whether they admit it or not) and this might influence the decisions they make, but so do some heterosexuals(male and female).
I've always thought most men where whores(or would be given the chance), regardless of sexuality. It just seems more pronounced with gay men for obvious reasons, but I would think that anyone consistently ''running around having unprotected sex', might have some issues.........
Don't subscribe to the ''guilty" school of thought, though - stupid and/or too trusting, maybe. I think it's important for those of use living with the virus, to try and learn to forgive(and that often means forgiving yourself too), in order to move on and deal with the journey ahead.
Diagnosed 9/18/06
10/13/06 - CD4:449, 33%,  VL:>500,000
11/20/06 - CD4: 392  VL:425,000
02/08/07 - CD4: 361, 16.9% VL:133,000
02/13/07 - Started HAART: Atripla
03/08/07 - CD4:401, 23.8% VL:643
06/05/07 - CD4:614, 33.6% VL:225
09/14/07 - CD4:612, 37%  VL: <50
12/14/07 - CD4:582, 38.5% VL:<50
4/11/08 - CD4: 658, VL: <50
3/5/09 - CD4: 847, 49% VL: <50
7/29/09 - CD4: 965, 50.1% VL: <50
12/28/09 - CD4: 925, 49.2% vl <50
9/16/10 - CD4: 1011 vl: <50

Offline Cliff

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,645
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2007, 04:08:44 PM »
I agree that because HIV is a sexually transmitted disease, it's only natural that there is a stima associated with it.  But I do get the impression that the stigma associated with other STD's seems to be equally applied.  Someone with Genital Herpes is likely to receive the same negative judgment, regardless of their sex or sexual orientation.  But judgment against gays with HIV seems to be worse than for other groups, (except for maybe injecting drug users).  I understand that this is because of the demographics and history of the disease (in the West).  But it just seems odd that so many gay men still buy into it.

Offline DanielMark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,475
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2007, 04:10:26 PM »
If anyone is going to judge me of being guilty of anything, then they better make sure they are perfect themselves (which of course no one is). They also better make sure they know every aspect of my life and heart and mind. To claim that “most gay men with HIV are whores” is not only being ill informed, but also impossible to know. I should think that Henry (Buckmark) got it right – there seems to be some internalized homo hatred going on with your colleague.

Daniel
MEDS: REYATAZ & KIVEXA (SINCE AUG 2008)

MAY 2000 LAB RESULTS: CD4 678
VL STILL UNDETECTABLE

DIAGNOSED IN 1988

Offline JPinLA

  • Member
  • Posts: 148
  • Cheers!
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2007, 04:18:44 PM »
This is absolute crap.  Not a single person deserves this disease.

Innocent, guilty, deserving, nondeserving - absurd.  The social stigma and association of sex (specifically GAY sex), as well as drug use, with HIV has made it easier for already intolerant people to further marginalize and oppress people deeming their lifestyles as dirty and unworthy.    

Sure,  I accept responsibility for the actions that resulted in me getting HIV.  Did I make the best choices? Obviously not.  Do I deserve it? Absolutely not.  

I'm human, I'm not perfect and I have HIV.
11/06 - Diagnosed - VL/5784 & CD4 326
2/07 - VL/6000 & CD4 290 2/07
3//07 -Began Truvada/Viramune 
4/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 320 22%
7/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 286 22%
11/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 302 26%

Offline anniebc

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,942
  • AM member since 2003
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2007, 04:22:33 PM »
Quote
I am going to try and tone "it" down

Xtente

If you don't then you will be given a "Time Out", you have been given fair warning and this is your last warning...flamebaiting is not acceptable nor tolerated in the forums and never will be.

Jan
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Never knock on deaths door..ring the bell and run..he really hates that.

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2007, 04:22:42 PM »
This is absolute crap.  

Indeed, it is
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline fondeveau

  • Member
  • Posts: 425
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2007, 04:32:52 PM »
So you are saying that since you didn't find solace in God, then he punished you by infecting you with HIV.  Why is he punishing the women who have become innocently infected by their spouses?  Why is he punishing children who become infected due to it being passed on to them by their parent(s).?  Doesn't hold water for me

Christianity 101: In the Old Testament we often are faced with an angry God who delivers divine retribution to those who did not follow the Law in the form of plagues, floods, fire and brimstone, etc.  In the New Testament, we learn that Jesus Christ died for our sins.  To attribute HIV/AIDS to be the divine hand of God delivering punishment is to deny the sacrifice made by Christ.  

Therefore, it is oxymoronic for anyone to claim a belief in Christ while denying his redemptive sacrifice.  Just as it silly to claim that you can kill an abortion doctor or a homo (Thou shalt not kill) and do so in the name of God.  If you gave the money to a church, would it be all right to rob a bank? (Thou shalt not steal).  I'm not gonna get into coveting your neighbor's fine ass.

The most that can be said is that bad things do happen to good (should we say innocent?) people.  






Offline bear60

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,104
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2007, 04:42:14 PM »
The Bear subscribes to the notion that all people are innocent....and that HIV is a virus which does not discriminate at all.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline englishgirl

  • Member
  • Posts: 387
  • ACT NOW TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TRAVEL BAN
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2007, 04:43:46 PM »
personally i cannot abide this whole 'guilt' and 'innocence' thing. i find it extremely offensive.

while i tell my story (only one partner in a year, i thought i loved him, we had a conversation before having unprotected sex in which he assured me he had no stds, he was wrong) to schoolkids to make them understand that anyone can contract regardless of whether we fit the stereotype, i do not like the inference that this scenario makes me somehow better than if i had had a massive orgy with a ton of strangers. and i make it quite clear to them that no-one should ever be judged because they are poz and you should never make assumptions about anything in relation to their status, cos we are all equal with this disease.

none of us here has anything to be ashamed of, and to say otherwise puts our common cause back no end. i believe that this is the only way to fight prejudice. if we cant stick together then what hope have we got to change the world?

yes, ok, some of us made more of a 'decision' than others -  the example was mentioned of a child infected at birth - but i believe that ultimately life deals you the cards regardless (kinda like the premise behind 'final destination') and you have to deal with it.

cliff: i agree with much of what you said, but re the issue of whether the judgments made of gay men are harsher or not than on others who are positive, while i agree that in the past the attitude of many was absolutely shameful and doubtless meant that the medical community was slower in responding than it might otherwise have been, i cannot say that i agree that nowadays people judge poz gays harsher than other poz groups. that has not been my experience. i think that we are all equally stigmatised by people who make judgements about what our behaviour must have been to contract this particular sexually transmitted disease. i even get looked down on by people with chlamydia or who are 'accidentally' pregnant. what's that about??!!

im gonna refrain from commenting on anything to do with religion, i think it is a topic best avoided!

all the best
ACT NOW TO CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TRAVEL BAN:
http://campaigning.tht.org.uk/cms/cmsloader?WfJVLp&view=11,301,1385,0,-html

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=17352.0


"I'm not keen on the idea of the afterlife - not without knowing who else will be there and what the entertainment will be. Personally I'd rather just take a rest." Oscar Berger, PWA: Looking AIDS in the Face, 1996. RIP.

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Lets be real about this "innocent" thing
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2007, 04:52:43 PM »
So if ppl are still running around having unprotected sex, they probably have low self esteem and have yielded their mental wherewithall to sexual desire.

I may have had unprotected sex, but I'm now paying the price.  I certainly don't have low self esteem (just ask my husband).  In fact, I'm kinda cocky some of the time.  I wonder how YOU became infected.  Did you yield your 'menal wherewithall to sexual desire'?  I didn't.  I just made a mistake.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline pozniceguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,181
  • Niceguy Dallas
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2007, 06:22:50 PM »
It seems to me that this   "guilty", sinful, undeserving, and other negatives seem to pop up in various places here on the forum.... what gives.....????  several people have already said and I believe correctly so...that we are all dealing with a virus....a pretty serious one..why the constant fall back to guilt..judgment..and other comments about gays or anyone with a virus for that matter.....???
I certainly don't feel "guilty"about  how I got it and that subject  is a nonstarter for any conversation...who I am , have been, or will be can be open discussion at any time...I , like many of you, have been in Hospital ( very sick) and seen/met all types of people with all types of disease..including children,older folks, mothers   etc..many of them were HIV+  and all needed treatment.  I don't know how many ,if any, were gay..straight..bi..stupid..unconcerned or whatever other condition may have allowed them to be infected but all needed understanding and treatment...can't we just accept that?????

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
Le stelle la notte sono grandie luminose, nel cuore profondo del Texas

Offline joemutt

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,042
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2007, 06:34:34 PM »
I m glad to see you back Cliff. I think everybody who got hiv is innocent ,
though the ways we get infected vary, we are all innocent.
I might have cared more for myself, or not get carried away, or maybe I was distracted,
but that makes me guilty of what precisely? Cheers! JoeM.

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,885
  • the one and original newt
Re: Lets be real about this "innocent" thing
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2007, 06:47:59 PM »
So if ppl are still running around having unprotected sex, they probably have low self esteem and have yielded their mental wherewithall to sexual desire. They have become slaves to their flesh.  Those ppl are in no way "innocent" victims.

Show me the study. 

1. Most people I know who are HIV-negative (at their last test) or have never been tested sometimes have unprotected anal sex, they know the risk on paper but to really think about is "too real" or they judge the people they are having sex with are not a risk (rightly in many cases, probably but hoho, there you go). So do they really know the risk?

2. Like many gay people, I acquired my HIV in a long-term relationship from someone I knew was HIV-positive. I accepted the risk. I'm not sore about the whole thing. Or pleased.

But the boys in 1 (a sample of my queer friends) and 2 (a sample of me) have neither low self-esteem nor enslavement to our penises. Not innocent.  Not guilty. If anything, we are human.

- matt

Now playing: Radio 4, Today in Parliament
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline otherplaces

  • Member
  • Posts: 398
  • Mutant Super Hero
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2007, 07:01:23 PM »
One month after I was diagnosed my former best friend had unprotected sex with his new girlfriend...I know because he told me.   I don't think he needs forgiveness for this action, but by his standards he does.  He later told me that I need to "forgive" myself for becoming HIV+.  All my old friends were way more promiscuous and reckless than me, and also expressed a feeling that I had done something wrong to get infected with HIV.  I don't think they deserve to become infected with HIV anymore than I believe I deserve to be infected.

It's absolutely ridiculous.  It's a double standard.  No doubt most of us were infected in the pursuit of love in some form or fashion.  If that is the bar to reach to "deserve" a disease, then I am of complete certainty that the whole world is guilty.

So lay down the blame game, and don't be ashamed.  My only regret is that I was so beaten down at the time that I didn't stand up to my "friend" and tell his ass off. 

brian

Offline Iggy

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,435
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2007, 08:47:05 PM »
  • Did I have low self esteem at the time of my conversion?  Yep
  • Did I know better than to engage in unsafe sex?  Yes.
  • Are there people out there who contradicted HIV through being lied to, manipulation on the part of another or medical accident (not to mention those who contracted before it was known about HIV?)  Yep.
  • Am I in any of those categories? No.
  • Am I "innocent"?  No.

I'm going to go against the grain a little here and accept the judgment of guilty, but not because I need to kneel before some deity -whether that of a fictitious God or the opinion of the morality police (on either side of the aisle).

I accept that I am not an innocent victim of my contracting of HIV because I knew better and no reason I, or anyone else, can come up with is a legitimate defense of me purposefully putting myself in the position that I find myself inin today.    I hope all appreciate that I'm not trying to put forth some enlightened viewpoint full of Deepak Chopra statements as to my viewpoint.  I am simply stating what has helped me come to terms with both my status and as a result is my guide for going forward in life with eyes wide open to being in charge of my destiny (as much as as blind chance and the chaos of the universe allows us).

Personally I don't see anything wrong in saying that I am not innocent  - only in those who decide to make a value judgment about me for not being  a victim.

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: OK miker
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2007, 09:19:26 PM »
To Miker: sorry if I offended you. I suppose maybe i have hidden rage because the person who gave it to me KNEW they frickin had it and told me they tested negative and whatnot. Hmmm. Maybe I should work on that!

I don't care if the person knew or didn't know. I tried to find him to let him know, just in case he was not aware of his status, but never found him. Every day I find people on poz.com or other poz sites that had unprotected sex with me as tops and never told me shit. Am I going to yell and cry or call the police? Nah, my job is to take care of myself and do my best not to infect others.

I tell my ex-bf I'm positive and a week later he tells me he had unprotected sex with a stranger. What can I say. I slapped him, but he will do it again. I had hope that me being HIV+ would be close enough to him so he would start being careful, but no.

You don't have hidden rage, you have rage, and yes, you should work on it. A lot of people have anger about this, i'm lucky not to be angry, but I can certainly understand your situation.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,207
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2007, 09:24:29 PM »
I'm not sure one can really use the words "innocent" or "guilty" WITHOUT a value judgement so I reject the entire exercise.  It serves absolutely no purpose.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline appleboy

  • Member
  • Posts: 344
  • Just me!
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2007, 09:24:49 PM »
Deep Thread!  Here is my 10 cents:
1.  I have HIV I got it myself.  I was not depressed or down I just made a dumb decision.
2.  For those that think that HIV is a curse from God, I don't think so.  I strongly believe that God will never give you more than you can handle.  So I always say I must can handle it.
AppleBoy
If you are walking down the street and your pants drop to your ankles bend over pick them up and keep on walking!
My Blog

Offline Ulong

  • Member
  • Posts: 43
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2007, 09:02:59 AM »
Goodness, I wander off for a day and you people dig up the most interesting stuff...

The innocent vs. deserving categorization is so way, way toxic for everyone. I've received a lot of "oh, you poor innocent dear" treatment and sobbing from people since I'm a woman and for some reason don't appear as evil as I really am. If they only knew...  ;)

 Anyway, I hate to admit it, but when I was younger (and probably got more of that treatment, plus I was young and stupid) I couldn't help but buy into it; I'm not saying I demonized the "guilty", just that I soaked it up on some level, and felt like I was better in some way. Entitled. The awful man who infected me--I was married---was all to blame, like the rest of the "guilty" AIDS people. Me? I was an innocent victim.

 Being an innocent victim is attractive in a dysfunctional way. But after a while, I began to think about why I was treated differently. The people who patted my head and were soooo sympathetic didn't really give a crap about me. It made them feel better to have a reason why a young white girl would have HIV, it allowed them to bash "nasty folks" in a socially acceptable way, and it made them feel like they were wonderful and compassionate human beings while still being stupid and ignorant bigots.

The sad thing is that it really encouraged me to blame others, and to be bitter and a martyr and so forth. Once I decided that it didn't really matter how I (or anyone else) ended up positive, life for me made a lot more sense. I could stop thinking about how everyone else "should" act or "should" run their lives or "should" follow some kind of me-approved rules. The downside: I had to start thinking about how I should run my life. That's a lot more work. None of those cooing and clucking wingnuts was gonna help me, my sole purpose in their life was to support their worldview and agenda. They didn't care about me personally any more than they cared about the "guilty". I hope I am a better, and wiser, woman for it all today.

Quote
i do not like the inference that this scenario makes me somehow better than if i had had a massive orgy with a ton of strangers. and i make it quite clear to them that no-one should ever be judged because they are poz and you should never make assumptions about anything in relation to their status, cos we are all equal with this disease.

Why oh why didn't someone like englishgirl slap me upside the head sooner in my life?!?!

Offline o

  • Member
  • Posts: 52
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2007, 12:11:23 PM »
:-) this thread is really interesting.
Cause it contains so much of subjectivity, so many different thoughts have been spoken out.

about God and punishment...
No one has a right to say: God is punishing you for this or that. Belief is only between God and the believer. And He has his ways to teach his lessons. I am getting my share. And i think i am learning in the most difficult way, but wont complain.

about innocence and guilt...
What does it matter? if one is infected, he is infected. Can not blame anyone really if crime is not involved.
At he end, if there has been any crime, what kind of a consolation is in there?

Peace out.
o

Offline Dragonette

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,190
  • Spring symptoms
    • NotPerfectAtAll
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2007, 12:25:00 PM »
Quite simply, none of us here is any more or less guilty than anybody else, therefore no one is more innocent. We contracted HIV by the same mechanics by which we were conceived. It is the most natural and instinctive act we can do and the one most hardwired into the deepest reptilian part of our brain.

It is one of the most horrifying parts of the pandemic that in the Western world it is associated with society's "lesser desirables" and cruel and unreasonable value judgments have been attached to what is, after all, a medical issue. If it had started amongst blue-eyed blonde white women there would be none of the stigma we all live with.

Brent
(Who does not feel innocent, nor guilty, nor stupid: merely infected)

i couldnt agree with u more.

PS I wrote something about this the other day in my blog:

HIV is still the disease of the "others", and so it was to me, until I found out that I had it. And even though I am still not sure how I got it, and even though I consider myself to have been sexually responsible, I don't want to have an "immaculate infection" [as someone here said once]. I can't say that I identify with double penetration and fisting stories, but I am not the Virgin Mary. I love sex, and I don't obssess about it as long as I get it regularly, and this is not a contradiction in terms. I am not dirty, nor clean. I don't have an infection story to tell, I just have shreds and suspicions, but in this sweeping epidemic, aren't all stories the same? Instead of focusing on isolating HIV people and insinuating our seperation from society, in a way that no other - infectious or not - sickness was isolated in the modern era, we should be getting a narrative that emphasizes that we are the very fabric of society, and we are not going anywhere because a virus has entered our bloodstream, whether it happened in a mass orgy or in a blood transfusion is completely irrelevant, what is insanely relevant is the enforcement of abstinence, the lack of affordable medication and treatment, and the lack of acceptance of the fact that poz people are part of society, just like people with cancer, Parkinson's or gingivitis are.

Dragonette [who is not supposed to write but sometimes just can't help herself. when i don't write i binge eat]
« Last Edit: June 14, 2007, 12:31:22 PM by Dragonette »
"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2007, 01:05:23 PM »
Being an innocent victim is attractive in a dysfunctional way. But after a while, I began to think about why I was treated differently. The people who patted my head and were soooo sympathetic didn't really give a crap about me. It made them feel better to have a reason why a young white girl would have HIV, it allowed them to bash "nasty folks" in a socially acceptable way, and it made them feel like they were wonderful and compassionate human beings while still being stupid and ignorant bigots.

I think that sort of informed thinking (referred to in the quote above) is what got some of us into this situation (HIV+) in the first place... me, anyway.  Afterall, I don't fit the current local demographics of a newly infected individual.  I'm educated, employed above some stated income level, white, don't use IV drugs, and I'm over whatever the stated age is.  Therefore, people like me don't / won't get infected these days because we're all these things that somehow make us 'better' or immune to HIV.  It sure didn't work, at least not for me.  I'm not saying that I looked down on those who are HIV+ prior my diagnosis.  I didn't.  I felt for them like I would for anybody with an incurable disease with a nasty stigma.  I generally played by the rules (safe sex).  To show how removed from HIV reality a lot of people are, I didn't know any HIV+ heterosexuals, especially women, but I met several in Montreal last year.  There's nothing like a disease with a 'slutty' stigma to humble one a bit and hopefully open ones eyes!

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline woodshere

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,477
  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2007, 01:15:01 PM »
Since the quote that started this discussion was mine I thought I would throw my two cents in the ring.  If you looked at the entire thread that the quote came from you can see reading it by itself is really not in the context of what was going on in that particular thread.

As far as this thread goes, in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter how individuals got infected.  Philly really hits the nail on the head  
I'm not sure one can really use the words "innocent" or "guilty" WITHOUT a value judgement so I reject the entire exercise.  It serves absolutely no purpose.
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline camille07

  • Member
  • Posts: 570
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2007, 10:47:19 AM »
Hey everyone-

I'm new to this forum.  I'm a christian (who's not perfect), heterosexual woman who finds it offensive that people who claim that HIV is deserved by sinners.   Tell that to all of the children in the world who have been affected by the disease that they deserved this...a concept they're surely grasp.

(below is just a brief and bewildering snippet of my situation.  So stop here if you're not interested)

I was infected by a guy that I am in love with.  We did use condoms and one time we had an accident we kind of wrote it off as a "whoa".  I am well educated about Aids since I lost a lot of friends early on and I volunteer at THE Center in NJ.  I wanted my guy to get some blood work because he had done some drugs in past.  We get a notice on the door from the health department saying that jack needs to call the Health department.  Jack is told he's got hep c and has to follow up with dr.  We go the doctors and he's flipping through the files and said, "so what brings you folks here today"....and Jack replies I have HepC and would like to start treatment.   The doctor, puzzled, looks at him and says what about the HIV.  Jack's flummoxed face followed his body to the floor.  Never did I see such despair and pain in my entire life in a single moment.  (He had full blown AIDS, cd4 19 and asymptomatic)  It would have been nice if the health department told us about the hiv .  I knew then and there I was probably infected, that gut feeling.  Long story short, I got tested it was negative until the very end and then wham the little pink stripe appeared from nowhere.  I took it really well, left and told Jack.  Jack was horrified that he "did" this to me.  He didn't do anything to me.   It happened.  I believe (notice the I) the grace of God has gotten me through this and that works for me.  Meds, friends, gyms and attitudes work for others. 

So here I am at this place on the internet talking to a bunch of strangers which will all have something in common.  Pleased to meet you all!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 11:26:17 AM by camille07 »

Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,399
  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2007, 12:16:06 PM »
Leave it to Cliff to start a thread with so much meat in it.

Glad you're back, youngun.

Regarding guilt - POSH! For the record, I probably have had more sex than anyone who has yet posted in this thread - with the possible exception of Bucko  ;) - with more partners.

That said, I assign neither guilt nor innocence to the fact that I am living with the bug. It is, that's all. I could no more assign guilt or innocence to having HIV than I could to catching the flu.

If people don't like my sex life, or at least what it was in its day, tough gahoogies. They weren't invited.

Cliff asked whether Gay men are tougher on each other regarding being positive. Yes, sometimes I think they are. Is it internalized homophobia? Perhaps, but that's no excuse.

If straight people were as condescending regarding unsafe sex, every pregnant woman now waddling down the street would be chastised for barebacking.

The bottom line is, HIV is non-judgemental. It doesn't care who you are, what you do, what god you pray to, etc. It is a protein sack filled with RNA. That's all. Only the perversity of our culture would assign a judgement to something that cannot think.

HUGS,

Mark

Oh, welcome Camille. Glad you're here. You may want to start a thread introducing yourself so you don't get lost in the shuffle.
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline planonstaying

  • Member
  • Posts: 169
  • Hiv is the FOX,tcells the rabbit, CALL the HOUNDS!
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2007, 12:20:17 PM »
   I am not innocent or guilty  i am just infected. A virus isnt alive. It has no prejudices. it  is not on a divine mission.  It's some rna in a protein shell that   through whatever mechanism you believe in  needs  a living being's cells to replicate

i mean really if it's about sin then any parretto  God made to do a sin  analysis would of had hetero sexual  out of wedlock sex and  loathing thy neighbor  far above  homosexual acts for numbers of occurences and  14 yr olds, traveling salesmen, ignorant bigots on message boards, and  TV Evangelists would of been swept away in the 80s

Lets not forget the same  pious people who  said HIV was punishment  were the same ones  defending segration in the 6os and  are the cultural descendants  of the same baptist denominations which used   the bible to justify slavery.  i don't hate them, I pity them.  They are far to quick to pick up stones  and let them fly as they did after 9/11  to find any happiness in life.    
 
If someone tells you  potential consequences of a behavior  it  doesn't  mean they jude you or mit    they may just give a shit about you

Offline newbernswiss

  • Member
  • Posts: 260
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2007, 01:17:23 PM »
I also believe there are people who contracted HIV thru not fault of their own. I don't like  using the words INNOCENT OR VICTUM  :'(  This could be due to unconsentual sex, sexual partner not disclosing HIV status, blood/blood product transfusions, organ donation, lack of education pertaining to HIV,  whatever. This same thinking goes on my belief that people have been diagnosed with cancer, hep., STD's ( many different kinds), and many other diseases thru no fault of their own. We all have a responsibility to protect, educate, and care for our own body. (Our children are a exception which we must do the same for) We can answer to no one but ourselves. If we do not protect, care for and educatie ourselves we can contract many different illnesses. Stay safe eveyone.

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,140
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2007, 07:01:10 PM »
If straight people were as condescending regarding unsafe sex, every pregnant woman now waddling down the street would be chastised for barebacking.


That's pretty much what I told Stephen Fry when he interviewed me for the upcoming BBC documentary on hiv. Not in quite those words, but the same meaning behind them. I hope that bit doesn't end up on the cutting room floor. I think it's a connection people need to make.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline pozguy75

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,239
    • POZitively Speaking
Re: Innocent victims?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2007, 01:17:34 AM »
Here again we are focusing on the person and not the behaviors...

Look, I got it the good old fashioned way...sex! I am neither innocent nor guilty...this just goes to show you how far people are willing to go, not accept accountability!

If you make choices there will be consequences good or bad...the real crux of this issue, is that extreme right wing zealots want us to believe that we are being punished by some God that seems to think that punishing its creation is fun...

Well, I for one do not have low self-esteem nor am enslaved to my penis...(that is funny to think about though...)


For Pete's sake people, let us accept our gains and our losses and work with them...laying blame only hurts everyone...

And I refuse to think of myself as a victim, innocent or otherwise!
Dx 2005
ATRIPLA

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.