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Author Topic: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV  (Read 6960 times)

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Offline zeb

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Today in Dutch newspapers and on Dutch television:

The police has arrested four men and one woman and has stopped in this way illegal and dangerous sex practices during gay sex party's in the city of Groningen.

Two 48 yo men from the village of Slochteren and a 33yo man from groningen are suspected to have sedated at least five men so that they could be sexually abused.
A 34yo men and a 37yo woman, both from Groningen, were arrested for dealing drugs. After interrogation the woman was released, the man is still suspected to have delivered a huge amount of drugs (GHB & XTC) to one of the 48yo men.

Last months, several times the police had received several signals (also from the dutch HIV society) about illegal practices during party's in the gay scene. Besides that 4 men have declared to the police that they are raped and severely maltreated. They said that they were sedated by drugs and while sedated were abused. While they were unconscious they have had unsafe and involuntary sex with one or more of the hiv infected suspects.
All the victims suspect that because of this they re infected with HIV.

The suspects have declared that they have infected the men, also by injecting their own infected blood, for their own kick. Besides that they claim that unprotected sex is pure.

when the suspects are found guilty by trial they can be sentenced to a maximum punishment of 16 years jail for maltreatment. According to Dutch standards that means that effectively they will spend 10.5 years in jail.

The Dutch HIV specialist and researcher prof. S. Danner has declared that he regards this as an act of murder. According to his opinion in most of the cases HIV leads to death. He claims that people think way too easy about treatment and medicines. As long as we don't know the long term effects of the meds and as long as people still are dying of aids (even though they have access to treatment) HIV must be regarded as a deadly disease.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 07:49:23 PM by zeb »

Offline Grasshopper

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2007, 01:02:18 AM »
.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 01:12:17 AM by Grasshopper »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2007, 01:49:40 AM »
Hey Zeb,

Do you have links to the media reports about this?

MtD

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 02:29:46 AM »
Here are the links to these reports.

The copy is in Dutch, It's published in the online version of the major Dutch newspapers. So it can be that after a while (week) they won't be available anymore.

http://www.nieuwnieuws.nl/archives/2007/05/mannen_opzettelijk_besmet_met.html

http://www.nieuwnieuws.nl/archives/2007/05/nieuwe_meldingen_hivzaak_groni.html#more

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64565131/Zeker_vijf_mannen_expres_met_hiv_besmet.html?p=2,1

http://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland/article430611.ece/Bizar_seksschandaal_in_Groningen

http://www.trouw.nl/hetnieuws/nederland/article721239.ece/Hiv-besmettingen_op_seksfeesten_Groningen

http://www.bnr.nl/ShowNieuwsArtikel.asp?Context=N%7C2%2C0%7CS%7Cce7cc391f66289a8&src=redactie&id=7016

http://www.nrc.nl/binnenland/article716231.ece/Mannen_opzettelijk_besmet_met_hiv_op_seksfeesten

http://www.nu.nl/news.jsp?n=1095043&c=19

http://www.nu.nl/news.jsp?n=1095175&c=10

http://www.gelderlander.nl/dgbinnenland/article1466738.ece

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/article1405891.ece

http://www.ad.nl/binnenland/article1405881.ece

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64584261/Burgemeester:_Seksfeesten_niet_te_verbieden.html?p=6,1

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64584461/GGD_roept_slachtoffers_HIV-besmetting_zich_te_melden.html?p=6,2

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64591341/Politie_nam_seksfeestverhalen_niet_serieus.html?p=13,1

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64587921/Organisator:_Op_seksfeesten_kan_alles.html?p=13,2

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64585131/COC:_Excessen_met_kracht_bestrijden.html?p=15,1

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64585391/Verdachten_hiv-besmetting_krijgen_maximaal_16_jaar.html?p=15,2

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64584361/Opzettelijk_verspreiden_van_hiv_geen_incident.html?p=16,1

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64585141/Krol:_Dit_heeft_niets_met_homoseksualiteit_te_maken.html?p=16,2

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/64596071/Kans_op_aids_is_vrijwel_100_.html?p=19,1
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 07:38:41 AM by zeb »

Offline LT

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 02:43:38 AM »
Sensationalist media drivel, if you ask me.  Shock TV loves the "People with HIV are irresponsible and Murderers!" angle.

In Canada it was the poz CFL football player who had unprotected sex with several women.

Gays using "date rape drugs" to have their way with some unsuspecting individual - how sick and shocking.  And it was in a sex club - doubly perverted!  But of course the same thing has happened to hundreds of women on college/university campuses and in bars.

Some, probably newly diagnosed psychopath decides he's mad at the world, and going to takes as many others with him as he can.  Yea - seen it before.  Once every few years it crops up in the news.

When these trash stories air, or are in print, we need to complain.  They plant the impression that all HIV+ people are slobbering, sub-human, nut cases bent on destroying the world.  Unacceptable.

Offline goatwriter

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2007, 04:15:04 AM »
I agree with L.T. on this. The media, and public, really love these stories. Truth is that most people still equate hiv with something evil.
 Remember one of the silence of the lambs movies, cant remember , second or third one, and the tone of the movie was set with this opening scene of the evil hiv poz character.
 It says more about what people fear would be there responses if they were diagnosed. That they themsleves would become murderous.

Offline Dragonette

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2007, 05:52:40 AM »
I am really sorry to write this guys, but this story is true i know of it from before it was published and it took a long time to investigate.

I wish it wasn't true. It makes me sick to my stomach. Because it can plant this impression you mention LT

out of the 45 million people with HIV/AIDS there will be a certain amount of psycopaths just like in any country with a similar number of people.

corrected: they are not convicted. but i know about it from people involved in treating the victims. i don't know about the blood i know about the purposful infection, the abuse, the drugs etc
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 05:57:56 AM by Dragonette »
"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2007, 07:09:50 AM »
Sorry to say, but this story seems to be true. This is not about people living with the virus. this is about - as Dragonette says - a few psycho's who organized conversion party's! These party's were organized with a certain frequency with the intention to abuse and infect other men.

One of the motives was that the suspects wanted to enlarge the circle of poz men because then there's is no need to play safe anymore. The suspects regard bare sex as pure.

Some of the victims are at this moment in a very difficult position because some of them have a wife and children. The Dutch health authorities have made a special phone number available to make it possible for men, who attended these party's, to call anonymous and to make appointments to get tested.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 08:18:32 AM by zeb »

Offline J.R.E.

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Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
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http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

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 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

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Offline zeb

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About the suspects
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2007, 08:00:12 AM »
About the suspects:

Source: geenstijl.nl

HIV gaycouple enjoyed the silence
Neighbours can't understand that the 48yo Peter Mulder and Wim Dekker from Scharmer injected other gay men with hiv. "They were a very social en nice couple, They live here since 1999 and the have a really nice and cosy renovated house. We saw them often walking with their dog, a golden retriever. It was remarkable that always other men were walking along with them. But we weren't much involved with them. I'm convinced that this is a very big mistake.", this says the neighbour of the barebackers who were arrested last week under suspicion of deliberately infecting other gays. In daytime Peter worked as location manager of the St Jozef Nursing Home in Sappemeer. During the evenings he was online on barebackchat.net to make new friends. Later the victims were drugged and abused in their second house at the Damsterkade in Groningen, or just on the cosy countryside of Groningen.
http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&q=borgweg+50,+scharmer&sll=53.179531,6.709479&sspn=0.006816,0.023518&ie=UTF8&ll=53.189675,6.697347&spn=0.003407,0.011759&t=k&z=17&om=1

Original article in Dutch:

HIV Homostel genoot van de stilte
Buren kunnen maar niet begrijpen dat de 48-jarige Peter Mulder en Wim Dekker uit Scharmer andere heaumeaux met hiv injecteerden. "Het was een ontzettend sociaal en aardig stel. Ze wonen hier sinds 1999 en hebben een allerleukst opgeknapt huis. We zagen ze vaak met de hond lopen, een golden retriever. Wat wel opviel is dat er altijd weer andere mannen meeliepen. Maar we bemoeien ons niet zoveel met elkaar. Ik ben ervan overtuigd dat het een grote, hele grote vergissing is.", zo zegt een buuv van de barebackers die vorige week werden opgepakt op verdenking van besmetting van gays. Overdag was Peter locatiemanager van het St. Jozef verpleeghuis in Sappemeer, 's avonds zat hij steevast op barebackchat.net om nieuwe vrienden te maken. Vervolgens werden de slachtoffers gedrogeerd en uitgewoond in hun tweede huis aan de Damsterkade te Groningen, of gewoon gezellig op het Groningse platteland.
http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&hl=nl&q=borgweg+50,+scharmer&sll=53.179531,6.709479&sspn=0.006816,0.023518&ie=UTF8&ll=53.189675,6.697347&spn=0.003407,0.011759&t=k&z=17&om=1
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 08:07:30 AM by zeb »

Offline carousel

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 08:34:23 AM »
So another titillating story of some people who've clearly lost the plot. 

There are plenty of people who wish we were locked up or culled and I'm sure this story reinforces their opinions.

You can't make generalisations from one incident involving a couple of fruit loops.

Having said that, gotta love a gay psychopath to take it to the next level.

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 08:58:15 AM »
Well yesterday on Dutch television also the Director of the hiv association (he's poz himself) and the editor in chief of the Gay Newspaper were invited to respond on this issue.

First off all they stressed very clear that this happened in a part of the gay scene but the crime itself has nothing to do with being gay or poz. This is also a shared opinion in the Netherlands among straight folks.
On the other hand there are some lunatics who are shouting out on bulletin boards: It's great to hear that these fags are very busy with killing themselves! But these noises are minority.

The public in general feels very sorry for the victims and are really mad at the suspects. Not because they're gay or poz. They're very upset about the way how they have infected other innocent men.

Offline Strayboy74

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 10:02:29 AM »
injecting blood???   DANGEROUS!  the wrong blood type could be absolutely disasterous.  Very fortunate that they didn't kill anyone by doing that ALONE.

There will always be sick people out there. :(

-joseph

Offline LT

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 10:05:33 AM »
I never meant to imply that the stories weren't true.  I believed they were.

I was just commenting on how the media will sensationalize a story that is actually about two or three people.  The tone starts to imply that all HIV+ people are just as crazy as the ones who committed these crimes.

After the Virginia Tech shootings, was the sense that all V Tech students where mass murderers?  Did they imply that all South Korean men where seething bags or rage, primed to go on a killing spree?  No - of course not.  The tone was, "How did this mentally ill individual fall through the cracks of the system."

But whenever HIV is involved, there is far more discussion about the seropositive status, than their mental health.  And it always adds to the idea that HIV is 100% deadly.  As I said before, it paints us all with the same stench as the criminals.

After V Tech, or Columbine, or Montreal's Dawson College shootings where there posters suggesting that it was a good thing that Korean men, or Goths, or South Asian men were killing themselves?  Of course not!  And if any had, they would have been swiftly denounced by police, political figures, and religious leaders.

But the tone of these stories allows the homophobes, and those that demonize poz people as sinful and evil to get away with it.  There is no public outcry against those purveyors of hate.  It just adds another days coverage to the already over played sensationalization.

Another point - how many newly infected people, or those in the near future, will remember this story, and be absolutely certain they are going to die?  Will they fear turning into lunatic mass murderers too?

Zeb, who started this thread is newly infected, and scared as hell that his life is shortened by HIV.  His mental hurdle is no different than any of us here, just an earlier point in the path.  This scene is playing out in his home country, in his native language, probably with it being the leading story at every news break on radio and TV.  That certainly has to be adding the his difficulty, accepting his status.  Should friends, family, and neighbors learn of his status, will they fear him because of this story?  Will it delay him from  believing that he can still make positive contributions to society, despite HIV.

As I said in the beginning, sensationalist media drivel, totally devoid of even, balanced reporting.  It cannot be tolerated.

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2007, 10:06:59 AM »
Well what they actually did was that they made a cocktail of blood from 3 hiv positive men. Besides the risk of wrong type of blood I also wonder hat might happen if you get different strains of the virus injected.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2007, 10:07:38 AM »
I read this thread yesterday and for the life of me I can't understand why it belongs in Living With.

I would like to thank Zeb for being able to ascribe the motives of psychopaths. I've often wondered why sex-crazed gangs of positive gay guys do the things they do...now I know. I hope they had the decency to come up with a cool gang name and gang sign...I'm sure their colours are pink, lavender and puce.

Dragonette no need to apologize to the "guys." We're not wilting little flowers as many of you might believe. We know that saints and sinners abound, no matter what the sexuality. I would have to spend all day apologizing to you guys every time another report of a straight guy raping a little girl was reported in the news. I'll leave their motives to others.

When I read this thread yesterday I was hoping it would quietly drop off the page...but no such luck. If someone can convince me of the value of this story to people living with HIV I am all ears.

That said, I suggest that you post this news item in Positive Women Zeb.

A transient woman faces serious charges for knowingly infecting four people with HIV. Officials arrested 21-year-old Melissa A. Treadway in Box Elder South Dakota. Police say Treadway had sex with at least four men, one multiple times, but never told them she was HIV positive.
Treadway is originally from West Virginia and has four children.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 10:09:20 AM by Dachshund »

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2007, 10:13:57 AM »
Zeb, who started this thread is newly infected, and scared as hell that his life is shortened by HIV.  His mental hurdle is no different than any of us here, just an earlier point in the path.  This scene is playing out in his home country, in his native language, probably with it being the leading story at every news break on radio and TV.  That certainly has to be adding the his difficulty, accepting his status.  Should friends, family, and neighbors learn of his status, will they fear him because of this story?  Will it delay him from believing that he can still make positive contributions to society, despite HIV.

Hi LT,

Here you really have a good point! Of course these reports in the media are very devatstating to me. Besides my worries about mortality (more scared then hell!) I also feel that I'm involuntary associated with these criminals.
It's has absolutely made it more difficult for me and other poz people I think to disclose. I think that poz people will be associated with this episode.

Thank you for your contribution! It pinpoints the problem very clear to me!

greets Zb

Offline LT

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2007, 10:25:22 AM »
Re-reading things, another point popped into my mind.

Zeb, this is the second posting where you've pointed out that some Dutch gay men think that being Poz, means they no longer need to play safely.

I've occasionally seen that in North America, but this seems to be more pervasive.

It does make me think that the organizations charged with AIDS information and education, and doctors, have ignored this area.  I hope this is a wake up call to  the need to re-allocate resources, and re-double efforts in dispelling this idiotic myth.

Offline Dragonette

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2007, 10:48:29 AM »
"Dragonette no need to apologize to the "guys." We're not wilting little flowers as many of you might believe. We know that saints and sinners abound, no matter what the sexuality. I would have to spend all day apologizing to you guys every time another report of a straight guy raping a little girl was reported in the news. I'll leave their motives to others"

I swear to God, I only used "guys" as a figure of speech!

If you think that I think that any poz guy (or girl, or transgender) needs to justify anything, to me or to society, you are wrong. I am sorry I was misunderstood this way. I onlywrote that I heard it and that I wish it wasn't true, EXACTLY because people might think <whatever>.



It is freaky s***. but in my opinion, if someone is a crazy sex offender, they will remain that way after the HIV diagnosis. Probabaly get worse....

It doesn't implicate me, or anyone living with HIV. There are crazy people out there with or without HIV, there are crazy gays, and crazy straights.

It's a horrible story and I wish it didn't happen. But just like I don't identify with every human who is from the same religion as me, or the same nationality, or that has also had the flu or dengue fever, or does the same job as me, etc etc, why should it implicate me (us) if there are some crazy perverts out there that happen to also have the HIV virus and do insanely criminal things?

HIV doesn't discriminate. I am sure those are not the only psychos with HIV, just as I am sure there are a whole lot of crazy sadistic people that are neg {and of course, straight...}.
Although if we want to point a finger there is one thing common to most sex offenders and violent criminals and that they are, well, predominantly male ;D...
But anyway.... don't take it the wrong way, men IN GENERAL are great. I'm just using this to show how things can be taken into extreme. And don't forget that they are Dutch... ah, the cruel Dutch men. But only the men from the North are that cruel, no, only the gay men, no, actually the poz gay men, but only the middle aged ones who live in the countryside are the really dangerous ones we should watch out for...

etc etc
 
Like someone said they certainly didn't invent the wheel by drugging and raping people, and about the HIV, well... crazy right? Who can knows what goes on in such a mind, HIV or not? I am sure if they were not poz they would have done something equally horrific with whatever "means" they have...

"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2007, 10:48:59 AM »
Those crazy Dutch sure know how to ruin a good sex party huh?!?!?!

Here you really have a good point! Of course these reports in the media are very devatstating to me. Besides my worries about mortality (more scared then hell!) I also feel that I'm involuntary associated with these criminals.
It's has absolutely made it more difficult for me and other poz people I think to disclose. I think that poz people will be associated with this episode.

You SHOULD feel no more associated with them than I should feel if a TALL guy without HIV murders someone.  Just cause Im TALL doesnt mean we are all murderers.  That being said, I get where you are coming from.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2007, 10:52:37 AM »
Hi LT,

good that you bring up this issue. In the Netherlands the Dutch HIV association has several sections. One of these sections is promoting serosorting. This group really has done big damage to the HIV association because one of the members is claiming that we have the right to live unhealthy (can you imagine that this is happening in an HIV association!?).

One of the ideas behind it is that poz men (yes it is a gay section) can have unprotected sex with other poz men. Many people feel that this is a very bad development! Besides the health aspects (think about creating untreatable strains and HepC) this also has a negative effect on how people regard hiv positive people and especially gay men.

Most of the poz gay men were also very upset by this development. They're also afraid that the public regard them as sex addicted bare backers.

In fact this is very strange. We regard the Netherlands as a liberal country. So some people think that they have the right to have an unhealthy life. On the other hand we see that these developments also has a bad influence on how people look at gays in general.

Henk Krol, the editor in chief of the Gay Newspaper said that no matter what we do with education and so on. These developments keep going on. With these developments the public opinion is not really in favour of hiv positive people and gays.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 11:02:02 AM by zeb »

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2007, 10:58:28 AM »
Its not unhealthy to have unprotected sex with another poz person.  And it shouldn't be legislated in ANY country!

Edited to change Should to shouldnt which is what I meant.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 11:06:29 AM by ACinKC »
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline red_Dragon888

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2007, 11:02:18 AM »
a serial killer with a twist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2007, 11:03:56 AM »
Until people come to terms with their own issues concerning HIV, sexuality, stigma, guilt, etc, etc, etc, stories like these will drive them crazy.


ps Dragonette, I knew exactly what you meant and I was in my own clumsy way trying to make a point. I know your intentions were good. ;)
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 11:07:27 AM by Dachshund »

Offline carousel

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2007, 11:10:44 AM »
Zeb

I don't want to take you to task, but you seem to know a lot about the views held by the Dutch population.

I just wonder if it would be more helpful if you owned these views as your own, rather than making statements, which are unverifiable.

Many hiv+ people choose to have unprotected sex with each other.  You may disagree with this, but using so-called public opinion to bolster your argument is unfair.  It is, of course, your right to disagree with this practice, but other people also have a right to behave differently.

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2007, 11:16:18 AM »
ACinKC

Well I'm tall too, so I know what you mean! But imagine that I would disclose now to my parents - after this incident. They would go mad or collapse. Not that they think I'm such a criminal but you can't imagine what the scale of scandal is now in the Netherlands. Today it is the second day that it still has lots of media attention! Already now there's is anounced that there will be programs about it in the evening.

They invite doctors who stres that HIV is a deadly disease and that the meds only stretch life for 'some while'
So continiously people associate HIV with dying! If I would disclose to my family they would be severely hurt.

They invite gay folks to stress that this is a criminal issue and not a gay issue

They invite the police to stress that hiv poz folks are not criminal but that these men are

And they invite the lawyers of these suspects to stress that they are nice people and that they have a good relationship with their neighbours and co-workers.

Offline Dragonette

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2007, 11:20:10 AM »
Yes the media are having a field day

This too shall pass....
"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2007, 11:22:29 AM »
Zeb

I don't want to take you to task, but you seem to know a lot about the views held by the Dutch population.

I just wonder if it would be more helpful if you owned these views as your own, rather than making statements, which are unverifiable.

Many hiv+ people choose to have unprotected sex with each other.  You may disagree with this, but using so-called public opinion to bolster your argument is unfair.  It is, of course, your right to disagree with this practice, but other people also have a right to behave differently.

Well these are not my opinions but those which are available on the site of the Dutch HIV association. It's hard to verify for you if you don't speak Dutch but perhaps with some babel stuff you can have a view:

http://www.hivnet.org/forum/index.php

You can also have a peek on the links I've send before. readers may respond to it, they're available to read for everybody.

Be my guest I'd say!

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2007, 11:28:46 AM »
ACinKC

Well I'm tall too, so I know what you mean! But imagine that I would disclose now to my parents - after this incident. They would go mad or collapse. Not that they think I'm such a criminal but you can't imagine what the scale of scandal is now in the Netherlands. Today it is the second day that it still has lots of media attention! Already now there's is anounced that there will be programs about it in the evening.

They invite doctors who stres that HIV is a deadly disease and that the meds only stretch life for 'some while'
So continiously people associate HIV with dying! If I would disclose to my family they would be severely hurt.

They invite gay folks to stress that this is a criminal issue and not a gay issue

They invite the police to stress that hiv poz folks are not criminal but that these men are

And they invite the lawyers of these suspects to stress that they are nice people and that they have a good relationship with their neighbours and co-workers.

Zeb can you imagine that you disclose now and dispell these stigma's associated with HIV and show your parents and others that normal, everyday people live with this disease.  And that the stigma's are bullshit!  They really need to be watching out for tall people, not people with HIV! 

It is what you make it.  Especially with family.  It took me 6 months to disclose to my parents, now I joke about having cooties and what not.  It's how I deal with things.  But the people who do know about me have a different view of the world and those with HIV and that view is because of me.

Just something to think about.....

Be the change you seek.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Strayboy74

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2007, 11:51:06 AM »
Be the change you seek.

And suddenly AC turns from Asshat to Wiseman.  BEHOLD!

I love you, AC. :)

-joseph

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2007, 12:06:32 PM »
And suddenly AC turns from Asshat to Wiseman.  BEHOLD!

I love you, AC. :)

-joseph

I'm really not a total douchebag, but I play one on TV!

Or wait to quote a more gay movie...
"PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE LITTLE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!"
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline goatwriter

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2007, 02:56:49 PM »
 I think this topic touches nerves because it goes right back to something at the beginning of the epidemic. That this disease is being spread in a cycle of revenge.
 Does anyone remember that urban myth from the eighties that was going around. The version I heard went like this.
 There is this guy, goes out to a club and sees this really hot chick. She starts to come onto him, he cant believe his luck. Man, this hot babe wants to come home with me. He takes her home and they fuck all night long. When he wakes up in the morning the chick has gone, but he sees a message in lipstick on his mirror. The message says "Welcome to the wonderful world of A.I.D.S"
 In the novel Trainspotting there was an hiv story involving revenge. It been used in numerous TV dramas I'm sure.
 Most big stories about hiv in the papers go for this revenge angle. it fascinates people. I think that consciously or subconsciously, the general public equates such things as positive people having sex, and or non disclosure with intent to harm / revenge.

Offline frenchpat

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2007, 03:06:29 PM »
After paying due attention, reading the whole thread, I fail to see why this was posted in the "Living with forum" and not in the "Off topic" one ...

Pat
People have the power - Patti Smith

Offline bear60

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2007, 07:54:39 PM »
I agree with Pat....this whole story belongs in Off Topic.
Question for Zeb:
I wonder why you of all people bothered to post this story at all.  Oh sure you point out that it can impact the entire HIV community.  But I for one do not feel that I have to hide my head or that people will confuse ME with perverts who infect others with a vengance.  No, I am a proud member of my community and I tell eveyone I work for or work with...that I have HIV and my partner has AIDS.  We are both very respected in our community.  Nothing this story is about will affect how I feel about myself. Yet I understand about the "public image problem".  Well, Zeb if you are so concerned about the public image of the HIV community then come out and start speaking about yourself as an HIV infected individual who is an upstanding member of his community.  Sorry, but that the only way we have to conquer the "stigma" of HIV.
Zeb....you imply that this story dimishes you in some way. IT does not.  You are the only person who will diminish you. There is nothing about this story that diminishes anyone here at AM.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline StrongGuy

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2007, 09:42:03 PM »
I hope these lunatics are given the "gift" of a nice long jail sentence.

Touching on what others have said as I glanced through the posts, it's unfortunate that a tiny group of sociopaths do this and, once again, it feeds the stigma and misconceptions when the vast majority of HIV positive individuals (gay, straight, etc.) are good people.

I'm done hoping the media's "hysteria" or, as they would call it, "emphasis," ever equates proportionally with the degree of significance. We've got troops getting limbs and faces blown off and losing their lives and the media still sees fit to spend entire days discussing how Rosie O'Donell gave that Hassellbeck chiquita a verbal smackdown.

As someone above said, this too shall pass...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 09:45:25 PM by StrongGuy »
"Get your medical advice from Doctors or medical professionals who you trust and know your history."

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"You know you all are saying that this is incurable. When the real thing you should be saying is it's not curable at the present time' because as we know, the great strides we've made in medicine." - Elizabeth Edwards

Offline zeb

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #35 on: June 01, 2007, 06:20:47 AM »
Hi all,

This morning I recieved a very nice mail of one of the members here from AM. Because of that I really would like to make this reply.

It occurs often that I and people who respond on my contributions are going into defense or start arguments.
Let me be very clear about the stuff what is happening in Holland now and how I feel about it.

I feel that the Dutch media is giving a wrong impression about this episode. Of course it's a real horror epic and it needs attention (as far as we know this has never happened before in our country especially not in such a scale. It seems that there are more than 20 victims have reported themselves at the health authorities now). But the whole story makes me feel isolated and makes me really feel depressed about it.

1.) The media is now pointing out that the infected men are in fact walking dead. They claim that there's a 100% chance the will eventually succumb of hiv relatied illnesses (great to read when your own diagnosis is fresh).

2.) The media is continiously speaking about a gay sex party. The gay issue doesn't make sense it could also have happenedin for example a straight swingers club. This is not about being gay or straight, this is about criminal behaviour if you ask me.

3.) The media is also stressing the HIV status of the suspects. The haven't disclosed to their employers or neighbours. That also really smacks me in the face. The impression they give is that HIV positive folks are some outcasts and that society needs to be warned about them. (also good to notice that with HIV we died a social death, NOT!)

What impact does this have in general?

The gay movement in Holland is shocked. They say - and I understand - that the way how this incident is brought in the media is a setback for gay emancipation in Holland. The gay movement is afraid that people think that all gay men walk around with their naked ass during gay pride and that all gay men attend sex party's while at the same time also straight folks visit swinger clubs.

The HIV community tries to make clear that this episode doesn't mean that all hiv positives are like these criminals nor outcasts.

The HIV community also tries to find the right balance in saying: with hiv you still can have a good life. But on the other hand when they stress that too much they're afraid that more people get engaged in unsafe practises.

Well personally this all means for me that I really feel depressed these days. I feel like an outcast and I feel like a walking corpse. I know this is not a right way of thinking but I can't help feeling myself this way. I also want to make clear that after this reply I don't want to go any longer into the defensive or respond to defensive reply's. I've got my head and heart full of this horror epic (I project it to myself) and I'm posting here with the best intensions.

Offline goatwriter

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2007, 08:39:44 AM »
From my point of view - I understand exactly what you are saying Zeb. That's all I want to say for now.

Offline Dragonette

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2007, 09:25:07 AM »
Dear Zeb,

Although my Dutch could use some improvement, I spent time watching the news last night.

It was devastating to me because it is such a spit in the face to have something like this happen in the Netherlands in particular. And in particular, in the peaceful, rural North....

The Netherlands, which has treated me with nothing but kindness, acceptance and professionalism as a poz. I am so thankful that I could have spent my first year and half here as a poz. Not only that, me and my partner want to stay here because we think it is currently the best place in the world to be poz: medically, socially... I have never met such informed doctors, and such kind staff as I met here. They make you feel like you are normal, at least were I am treated, they don't seperate you from other patients, neither in the waiting room nor when they take blood (often without gloves! and in any case without any fear), they are super-polite and nice. It is soooo different from other places.

The Netherlands, where anybody can do what they want, where being gay is completely non-issue, where even right wing politician (Pim Fortuyn) was openly gay. Where the first declaration of the mayor of the rural town where this happened is "I will not ban sex parties" {can you imagine this happening anywhere else? I can't}

The Netherlands, that supports good causes all over the world with all it's foundations (stichting). That, asides from the Rita Verdeunk "blip" following the van Gogh murder, has always been <mostly> humanistic, that grants asylum to HIV+ immigrants on the basis of HIV, and that gives a monthly allowance even to illegal HIV+ immigrants, as well as treatment.

Again, this is not something I can imagine in any other place. A country = the country itself, not an ASO - that gives me - and anyone else who needs it, poz or not - subsidized condoms for just 10 cents each. That councelled me and my BF on safe sex for free in the most relaxed and open way. I could only wish and pray that my own country would come anywhere close to the Netherlands on so many levels (and no, this is not a perfect place, it has a horrible private housing market, terrible beaurocracy, the most unreliable train system ever, shitty weather, bland food, dull landscapes, and sometimes cold removed people with a īt's your problem not mine" attitude, ah yes and I forgot the ruddest most incompetent customer services  ;D , yet it is the most fair, honest, pragamtic, open place I have ever known, and the Dutch way of dealing with problems, any problem, is realy and truely to try to solve them, whether in legalizing prostitution and cabnnabis, in allowing euthanasia, in giving subsidies to help with housing and insurance to practically every other person, including myself, and a million other examples).

If you remember, after the Virginia Tech shooting, the Korean PM apologized to the Americans, and Koreans in general were devastated, even though it is just one Korean psycho, Now now to say that I think the Korean people were in any way to blame, or that we should be ashamed, but I am just so sad. Yes this touches a nerve. I heard stories for a long time, a lot of the people treating me at various stages, from the coucellor at the GGD, to the social worker, to the doctos, about these things going on, but it was difficult to prove. Now it exploaded. Now they show how "gewoon" these people were, and this is the hardest thing to grasp, they didn't live in a filthy place but in a pretty, tidy suburban house, held good jobs (one was a nurse at a nursing home), owned a golden retriever... just your most normal couple (and here gay or straight couple doesn't mean a bit of a difference, even in a little village).

Finally,incredibly, I am almost sure that I dated one of the victims (before my BF). It didn't work out and we are no longer in touch. But I feel so sorry for him. He never said it explicitly but the hints he gave out make my realize, in retrospect, that this is indeed what happened to him, and I want to cry when I think that this is what happened to him and that he kept it inside like this. No wonder he was horribly depressed....

It was very sad to see that the TV stations photograph gay men just sitting around having drinks in a cafe, in the local gay club where I have danced myself, at the sex counceling center where I have been made to feel so welcomed and even - amazingly - told that I DO NOT have to disclose if I want to have protected sex, that it is my right to keep my status private, and to see on TV that the chairman of the gay men's organization here who had to defend himself like that, I felt so sorry for him, because he had to answer such mean questions (although not as harsh as I can imagine he would have been asked elswhere), and explain so many things. And the papers have headlines "homos inject HIV". And we know that what happened had nothing to do with being gay, not even with barebacking (although I am personally against that) but just with a threesome of psycopaths, and they did a terrible damage to the gay community and to the general HIV community.

But most of all, to the poor souls that they did these unspeakable things to. It's one thing to be infected, even to be lied to by a partner which is devastating, and another to undergo what these poor men had to, and all because they wanted to have sex. That is what they told me at the hospital, that these 3 preyed on men who were just intersted in having sex, and a lot of times men were young and inexperienced or closeted or even married, and they did nothing wrong, they just followed a very natural urge to explore a side of their sexuality, and they were brutally raped and mutilated and to top it all off injected with this HIV "cocktail", which sounds like the worst kind of urban myth. And this isn't about gay sex, or straight sex, or bareback sex or group sex. Injecting drugged people with HIV isn't about "sex" at all (and neither is raping them).

Please everyone just accept that for HIV+ in Netherlands and sadly probabaly for most gays too this hellish story has become part of living with HIV, although hopefully it will not have far-fetched implications.
"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline frenchpat

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #38 on: June 01, 2007, 02:35:14 PM »
Zeb,

I hope you will not interpret this as a defensive comment, nor an offensive one. I have stated in a previous post that I think this thread should have been posted in the Off Topic and I still do.

However...

That you are so deeply affected by this story is relevant to the "living with " section, in my opinion. I'd like to help in offering a few observations.

I feel that the Dutch media is giving a wrong impression about this episode.

The more I read your post, the more I feel it is the media, and the way it deals, feels, wallows and relishes in this story that affects you.

Quote
1.) The media is...
2.) The media is continiously...
3.) The media is also ...

There is a saying in the news media: "When it bleeds, it leads..." So it is hardly a surprise that there is a media frenzy when such a bizarre, but none the less horrendous, criminal affair happens.


Quote
Of course it's a real horror epic and it needs attention.

Like any unheard of crime, it is getting a lot more attention than it truly deserves. This doesn't mean that you *have* to give it your full attention. Besides, like any news story, however big, it will eventually fade as other, more or less gruesome news replace it. Just as the Virginia tech killings, it will become yesterday's news (however fortunate or unfortunate that is).


Quote
But the whole story makes me feel isolated and makes me really feel depressed about it.

Quote
Well personally this all means for me that I really feel depressed these days. I feel like an outcast and I feel like a walking corpse. I know this is not a right way of thinking but I can't help feeling myself this way...
I've got my head and heart full of this horror epic (I project it to myself) and I'm posting here with the best intensions.

May I suggest something? You recently discovered that you are hiv+ and, as for most of us who've been there,  you are still reeling from the shock. Yet you're composed enough to have noticed that the media wasn't acting responsibly regarding this event, and that the way you are dealing with it is not the best for you.

What I am getting at is that you have a choice: you are not a victim of the media but you are right now, despite your better judgement, a participant of this story, at least on an emotional level. It is proving destructive for your wellbeing and there is something you can do to protect yourself from the fallout: turn your TV off, stop buying the papers and browsing the net until this avalanche of rubbish settles.

There will always be time for you to read about the events as they did happen, in six months or a year, when the suspects will be put on trial, hard evidence will have been gathered and myths will have been dispelled.

In the meantime, go out to the park with your children, exercise, enjoy food and the coming summer, minute by minute, for those are the things that can make you stronger and happier.

Hope this helps,

Pat
People have the power - Patti Smith

Offline cokaine

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Gay AIDS rape gang in Holland
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2007, 01:48:12 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070531/hl_afp/netherlandscrimesex_070531170047



THE HAGUE (AFP) - A gay gang that allegedly raped victims lured on the Internet, drugged them and infected them with the        AIDS virus has shocked the Netherlands and raised questions over its liberal sex culture.

Health Minister Ab Klink on Thursday called the case "horrible", as the press splashed the news across its front pages.

The matter came to light Wednesday, when police said they had arrested three seropositive homosexual men two weeks ago after four victims, men aged 25 to 50, accused them of rape and premeditated bodily harm.


Offline Dragonette

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Re: Gay AIDS rape gang in Holland
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2007, 02:14:42 PM »
Hi Coke,

This story broke out about a month ago it was widely discussed here in the forums (I even mentioned it in your other post about the US AIDS trial). It is very sad for poz people in the Netherlands living with this story but there are still beautiful stories in the media that shed a completely different light on poz people, like Zeb posted today, and disassociate the genral poz community from these psychos. As you can see everytime a case like this happens (which is very rare; and this case itself is the extreme of the extreme of pathological behavior) it does a lot of damage to people living with HIV. The media is somewhat tired of the reality of HIV and it is very bad for us that HIV is only (or mostly) referred to from the aspect of crime and scandal because collective memory tends to fixate on the bizzare and morbid...

"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Gay AIDS rape gang in Holland
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2007, 02:31:47 PM »
Do you think you can come up with a little more sensational title for a topic? Don't you think we could find something a little more enlightening to discuss in Living With HIV than this? Three sociopaths become a gang terrorizing Holland...what's next? Paris in jail?

Offline bear60

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Re: Gay AIDS rape gang in Holland
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2007, 02:38:57 PM »
.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Bucko

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Re: Dutch victims sedated with drugs and purposly infected with HIV
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2007, 09:12:10 PM »
You know, i avoided posting in this thread the first time around because i wasn't able to really formulate my thoughts/feelings about this into a coherent structure. But I'm having a good day today (mentally) so here goes:

1) FrenchPatty was absolutely spot on when she mentioned the "If it bleeds, it leads" approach to televised journalism. Sensational stories are milked dry to wring all the pathos and drama possible. The impact on the population informed is of only minor concern in the never-ending quest for high ratings. While I have no stomach for censorship of any kind under any circumstances, I have even less of a tolerance for media corporations that extract their profits by capitalizing on tragedy.

2) Criminalizing illness, especially HIV, is fascistic, plain and simple. Criminalizing sex (provided there is adult consent) is no better. What these criminals were doing is assault. Sensationalizing the sexual aspect of rape/assault is considered unacceptable everywhere except when it involves gays, it seems. If this involved heterosexuals the sex angle wouldn't be the screaming headline most certainly.

3) Anyone who draws sweeping conclusions regarding homosexuals or people with HIV in this twisted story are simply looking for an excuse to justify their sad little phobias. Members of the gay and/or HIV community who fret about their being painted less worthy of human respect by the broad brush of televised media and simple minds play right into their hands. It also exposes an underlying guilt and self-loathing that is more worthy of analysis than any change in the perception of us by the public at large.

This is not a news story, it's a tabloid-type exploitation of a human tragedy. The victims deserve more respect and the perpetrators, while obviously a menace to society and need to be removed from those whom they might harm, are mentally ill. As I am not a mental health professional i can't imagine how they should be treated, but I'm certain that prison will not lead to effective treatment options.

Brent
(Who believes that journalism is more than a vehicle to sell advertising space) 
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

 


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