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Author Topic: Too much Green Tea is bad?  (Read 5262 times)

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Offline Mike89406

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  • Posts: 206
Too much Green Tea is bad?
« on: May 11, 2007, 03:46:11 PM »
http://www.thatsfit.com/2007/05/07/how-much-green-tea-is-too-much

They're saying supplements may give you too much polphenyls etc...

Offline Mike89406

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  • Posts: 206
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2007, 03:47:32 PM »
This also goes to show that you cant get in to the hype of herbs, vitamins as a miracle cure.

Offline risred1

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  • My Source for Supps - www.newyorkbuyersclub.org
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2007, 08:22:15 PM »
http://www.clltopics.org/Phyto/LatestonGreenTea.htm

So what amount is right, or what can we percieve as reasonable? I've attached what i think is an insiteful commentary on the subject looking at the results of two studies. At the end they refuse to make a recomendation for good reason, but the studies seem to indicate that for most Green Tea Extract Supplements, following their recommended dosage should be ok.

I am taking  Green Tea Mega EGCG from Immunesupport.com following the dose of twice per day which equals 580 mg of ECGC daily, providing the supp info is accurate, it would appear to be under the study limits, which was viewed as tolerable, But I'm a bit of an experimenter when I think there is something to this stuff. Be Careful, we probably need more information on ECGC. Since I'm border line on the meds front, I'm rolling the dice that perhaps ECGC may help my CD4's, I will see in September at my next test, and I will be very interested in my liver readings as well.

Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 capsule
Servings Per Container: 100
Amount Per Serving    %DV
Opteava® Green Tea 95% Extract (standardized to provide 95% polyphenols, 688.8 mg)    725.0 mg    *
Polyphenol Breakdown:       
Total Polyphenol Concentration    688.8 mg    *
Epigallocatchin Gallate (EGCG) (standardized to provide 40% EGCG)    290.0 mg    *
Catechins (standardized to provide 15% catechins)    108.6 mg    *
Other Polyphenols    290 mg    *


------------------
Abstract:

Article in Clinical Cancer Research

Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Aug 15;9(9):3312-9.

Pharmacokinetics and safety of green tea polyphenols after multiple-dose administration of epigallocatechin gallate and polyphenon E in healthy individuals.

Chow HH, Cai Y, Hakim IA, Crowell JA, Shahi F, Brooks CA, Dorr RT, Hara Y, Alberts DS.

Arizona Cancer Center, The University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona 85724, USA.

PURPOSE: Green tea and green tea polyphenols have been shown to possess cancer preventive activities in preclinical model systems. In preparation for future green tea intervention trials, we have conducted a clinical study to determine the safety and pharmacokinetics of green tea polyphenols after 4 weeks of daily p.o. administration of epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) or Polyphenon E (a defined, decaffeinated green tea polyphenol mixture). In an exploratory fashion, we have also determined the effect of chronic green tea polyphenol administration on UV-induced erythema response.

EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: Healthy participants with Fitzpatric skin type II or III underwent a 2-week run-in period and were randomly assigned to receive one of the five treatments for 4 weeks: 800 mg EGCG once/day, 400 mg EGCG twice/day, 800 mg EGCG as Polyphenon E once/day, 400 mg EGCG as Polyphenon E twice/day, or a placebo once/day (8 subjects/group). Samples were collected and measurements performed before and after the 4-week treatment period for determination of safety, pharmacokinetics, and biological activity of green tea polyphenol treatment.

RESULTS: Adverse events reported during the 4-week treatment period include excess gas, upset stomach, nausea, heartburn, stomach ache, abdominal pain, dizziness, headache, and muscle pain. All of the reported events were rated as mild events. For most events, the incidence reported in the polyphenol-treated groups was not more than that reported in the placebo group. No significant changes were observed in blood counts and blood chemistry profiles after repeated administration of green tea polyphenol products. There was a >60% increase in the area under the plasma EGCG concentration-time curve after 4 weeks of green tea polyphenol treatment at a dosing schedule of 800 mg once daily. No significant changes were observed in the pharmacokinetics of EGCG after repeated green tea polyphenol treatment at a regimen of 400 mg twice daily. The pharmacokinetics of the conjugated metabolites of epigallocatechin and epicatechin were not affected by repeated green tea polyphenol treatment. Four weeks of green tea polyphenol treatment at the selected dose and dosing schedule did not provide protection against UV-induced erythema.

CONCLUSIONS: We conclude that it is safe for healthy individuals to take green tea polyphenol products in amounts equivalent to the EGCG content in 8-16 cups of green tea once a day or in divided doses twice a day for 4 weeks. There is a >60% increase in the systemic availability of free EGCG after chronic green tea polyphenol administration at a high daily bolus dose (800 mg EGCG or Polyphenon E once daily).

PMID: 12960117
____________

JCO Article

J Clin Oncol. 2001 Mar 15;19(6):1830-8.

Phase I trial of oral green tea extract in adult patients with solid tumors.

Pisters KM, Newman RA, Coldman B, Shin DM, Khuri FR, Hong WK, Glisson BS, Lee JS.

Department of Thoracic/Head & Neck Medical Oncology, University of Texas, M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX 77030, USA.

PURPOSE: This trial was designed to determine the maximum-tolerated dose, toxicity, and pharmacology of oral green tea extract (GTE) once daily or three times daily.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: Cohorts of three or more adult cancer patients were administered oral GTE with water after meals one or three times daily for 4 weeks, to a maximum of 6 months, depending on disease response and patient tolerance. Pharmacokinetic analyses were encouraged but optional.

RESULTS: Dose levels of 0.5 to 5.05 g/m(2) qd and 1.0 to 2.2 g/m(2) tid were explored. A total of 49 patients were studied. Patient characteristics: median age, 57 years (range, 27 to 77 years); 23 patients were women (47%); 98% had a Zubrod PS of 1%; 98% had PS of 1; and 21 had non-small-cell lung, 19 had head & neck cancer, three had mesothelioma, and six had other. Mild to moderate toxicities were seen at most dose levels and promptly reversed on discontinuation of GTE. Dose-limiting toxicities were caffeine related and included neurologic and gastrointestinal effects. The maximum-tolerated dose was 4.2 g/m(2) once daily or 1.0 g/m(2) three times daily. No major responses occurred; 10 patients with stable disease completed 6 months of GTE. Pharmacokinetic analyses found accumulation of caffeine levels that were dose dependent, whereas epigallocatechin gallate levels did not accumulate nor appear dose related.

CONCLUSION: A dose of 1.0 g/m(2) tid (equivalent to 7 to 8 Japanese cups [120 mL] of green tea three times daily) is recommended for future studies. The side effects of this preparation of GTE were caffeine related. Oral GTE at the doses studied can be taken safely for at least 6 months.

PMID: 11251015
___________

Editorial

The death of the Beagle dogs in the new study is worth thinking about. What does it mean for consumers like us who want to try EGCG? Here are some of my thoughts on the subject.

    * If you were a perfectly healthy individual, with a few pounds to lose (which of us don’t?), I strongly suggest that you change your eating and exercise habits to get that svelte girlish (or manly) figure you have always wanted, and stay the heck away from hyped up drugs of any kind. There are no quick-fix solutions to good health, all of the approaches that are successful require your active participation and hard work. If this sounds like too much work, it is. But if that perfect “10” body came in a pill you can pop, everyone would have it and then would it even matter any more?
    * Cancer patients must have a slightly different tolerance level when judging that old Risk versus Reward ratio. Faced with the choice of death or lingering ill health, we would try a lot of things that a “normal” person would be crazy to try. That does not mean we become rash in our choices, we still have to be smart to make the best deals we can, get the most bang for the buck. If green tea extracts can buy us time, slow down the rate at which our CLL progresses, and if we can do it without taking on a substantial risk of toxicity, that is a bet worth making. That is the whole point of Project Alpha: we are trying to see if we can find low toxicity options for our community. This formal, well designed clinical trial at one of the most prestigious institutions is the best way we can answer the question.
    * Just because something is “herbal” or “all natural” does not make it safe. Some of the most potent drugs we know are herbal extracts. Quinine, digitalis, hemlock etc are but a few examples. Many chemotherapy drugs are based on compounds extracted from plants. So, the next time you see an advertisement suggesting a potion or pill is safe just because it is “herbal”, hang on to your wallet and walk away. Hucksterism of this sort is a time honored tradition of separating the mark from his money, and vulnerable cancer patients often fall prey to this kind of heartless exploitation.
    * Dosage matters, big time. A drug that is reasonably safe and effective at a given dose can be dangerously toxic if the dosage is increased. Many people die each year due to overdose of simple drugs like Tylenol. A glass of red wine with dinner is not only pleasurable but is even thought to be good for your health. But we all know tipping the bottle too often (as in alcoholism) can easily kill you. It is because dosage matters that well designed clinical trials go through a dose escalation part, to identify the potential risks, their seriousness, and the level at which it might be safe to administer to patients. The Mayo Clinic trial of EGCG is going through the dose escalation phase right now. Neither they nor the human clinical trials reported in the two abstracts above saw toxicity that is cause for concern, in the dose ranges that were considered reasonable in humans. As for the poor Beagle dogs that died, they gave their lives to science, to identify extreme dose ranges over which green tea extracts can be very detrimental to your health.
    * Any time you start a new drug or supplement, it is very important that you do so after discussing it with your doctor, and monitored for potential problems. Every one of us is unique in some way, and that translates to drug tolerance as well. A drug that is perfectly well tolerated by millions can be a huge problem for some patients, especially if they develop allergic reactions to the drug in question. Drugs can interact with other drugs with huge adverse effects. If your doctor does not know what all you are taking, how can he protect you from potentially dangerous combinations?
    * As a CLL patient, you are probably quite familiar with the monthly CBC, the complete blood counts that tell you how your lymphocytes are progressing, whether the other cell lines such as red blood cells, platelets and neutrophils are hanging in there. Another blood test that is also cheap and routinely done is the “composite metabolic panel” (it is also called blood electrolyte panel by some labs). This measures electrolytes such as calcium, sodium, potassium etc, as well as important liver and kidney functions. ALT and AST are the two monitors of liver function. Elevated ALT (and AST) is a sign your liver is struggling to cope, and you had better give it some relief.
    * Your liver is your frontline defense against toxins, and just about every pill you pop goes from your GI tract to your liver. Unfortunately, most medications (and herbs are medications!) look like dangerous toxins to your liver and it works mightily to get rid of them. This is called first pass metabolic loss. Not only do you not get the benefit of the drug, since it is disposed off by the liver before it even has a chance of getting into your blood where it may do some good, in the process of doing this duty your liver takes a real beating. Some of you have become fans of “Harvey’s Chocolates”, where our hypothetical hero Harvey (actually his ever so smart wife Serena) comes up with a way of having his EGCG and eating it too. If liver toxicity of EGCG is a concern you might want to explore this option.[We discuss the comparative merits of different ways of administering drugs in a prior article (Chemotherapy - the "How?" Is Often As Important As the "What?")
    * I understand that based on the latest information, the NCI is not going to continue their clinical trials of EGCG as a chemopreventive agent. In other words, they are not going to continue with giving healthy volunteers green tea extract (Polyphenon E) as a way of preventing future incidence of cancer. However, you will be pleased to know that Mayo Clinic plans to continue their clinical trial of green tea extract (Polyphenon E) to study its efficacy in CLL patients. Makes sense to me, we already have the cancer, we are not quite in the same boat as healthy volunteers trying to avoid possible cancer in the future. In keeping with Mayo’s well designed policies for full disclosure, I understand patients participating in the clinical trial will be brought up to speed on all the latest information, and asked to sign a new consent form.
    *I hope you will agree I am not just playing coy when I decline to recommend any given brand of green tea product on the commercial market, and I especially decline to give dosage recommendations. This is serious business folks, and I have no desire to become yet another “cancer guru” peddling stuff to vulnerable people.

risred1 - hiv +
02/07 CD4 404 - 27% - VL 15k
10/07 CD4 484 - 31% - VL 45k
05/08 CD4 414 - 26% - VL 70k
01/09 CD4 365 - 23% - VL 65k
05/09 CD4 291 - 23% - VL 115k - Started Meds - Reyataz/Truvada
06/09 CD4 394 - ?% - VL 1200 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
07/09 CD4 441 - ?% - VL 118 - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
09/09 CD4 375 - ?% - VL Undetectable - Boosted Reyataz with Norvir and Truvada
12/09 CD4 595 - ?% - VL Undetectable - VIT D 34 - Reyataz/Truvada/Norvir

Offline J.R.E.

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,180
  • Joined Dec-2003 Living positive, since 1985.
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 08:49:09 PM »
Good post there Risred:

 I stated in another thread that I am taking the green tea extract. Have for a while now, but I am taking it , at half the recommended dose

From another thread ;

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10798.msg134458#msg134458

We were out shopping today, and I decided to buy the Green tea capsules. And give it a go, just for the hell of it !


These were made by GAIA herbs. Liquid Phyto-caps----Green tea

"Rich in Naturally occurring antioxidants". 100% vegetarian 60 liquid filled Capsules


Supplement facts :

Serving size, two capsules

Alchohol Free, concentrated extract of : Green tea ( Camelia Sinensis )

Whole plant standardization Activity profile:

Bio activity per two capsules : MG activity

Total polyphenols----------------300mg

Total Catechins ------------------240mg

Total catechins ;
Calculated as

 EGC (EPIGALLOCATECHIN )

 EC : ( EPICATECHIN)

 EGCG (EPIGALLOCATECHINGALLATE )

ECG (EPICATECHINGALLATE )

 ( AND OTHERS )

Other ingrediants :Vegetable glycerin, vegetable cellulose (capsule) the product contains naturally occurring caffeine from green tea.

Certified Organic

Each two capsules contain 3,000 mg of crude herb equivalent.

US patent no-6,238,691 B1


Suggested use :

Take two capsules with a small quantity of warm water 2 times daily after meals.

Not to be used during pregnancy or lactation. Keep away from children. Use only as directed on label. Sealed for your protection....(BLA, BLA,BLA....)

CONTAINS NO ANIMAL BY-PRODUCTS AND NO GELATIN

TESTED FREE OF HEAVY METAL TOXICITY




Ray
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 08:51:35 PM by J.R.E. »
Current Meds ; Viramune, Epzicom, 40mg of simvastatin, 12.5mg of Hydrochlorothiazide.
Metoprolol tartrate 25mg



http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=40802.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=45159.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39722.msg495621;topicseen#msg495621

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=46806.0

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=39414.msg491701#msg491701


 In October of 2003, My t-cell count was 16, Viral load was over 500,000, Percentage at that time was 5%. I started my first  HAART regimen  on October 24th,03.

 As of 8/2514,  t-cells are at 402, Viral load <40

 Current % is at 11%

  
 62 years young.

Offline milker

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  • Protected phone sex
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 08:53:40 PM »
I'm taking the "cautious" route since I haven't taken supplements before (except protein shakes after the gym), so after much review (thanks to risred1's post) I have decided to go with 500mg/day of EGCG. Also, I haven't got my liver tests back, so that also played a role in my decision about current supplements. When I get the tests back and after talking to the doctor, I may increase some dosages.

It's been almost a week and so far no side effects at all. Actually, the bathroom experience is a pleasure now, except for the neon green pee from the vitamin B, so something must have helped in that area.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Mike89406

  • Member
  • Posts: 206
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 10:57:50 PM »
Yeah Green Tea is good but I didnt realize that the capsules were that concentrated.

I think this paragraph sums it up

But as with nearly everything, too much of a good thing is not a good thing. A review of recent research found that when people ingest too much green tea -- especially in supplement form -- they run the risk of developing liver or kidney damage. Though the polyphenols in tea are beneficial in moderate doses, they can be toxic at high levels. Green tea supplements can contain 50 times more polyphenols than a single cup of green tea.

But as a general rule of thumb 

Experts say that even 10 cups of green tea a day is safe, but that if you're taking supplements you may want to watch your dose because it's easy to go overboard.

I buy the Fuze Green,  and White Tea in a that you buy in the store, or brew Tazo Green Tea. thats just me but as long as you know what you;re doing with the supplements then you should be OK.

http://www.drinkfuze.com/

Bottom Line-Green Tea is good for you... Wise dosing of supplements is better, and drink as much green tea as you want.

Offline Cerrid

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  • Posts: 499
  • only as good as your last haircut
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 06:17:12 AM »
Actually, the bathroom experience is a pleasure now, except for the neon green pee from the vitamin B, so something must have helped in that area.

Ummm... interesting. Does it glow in the dark?
"Boredom is always counterrevolutionary. Always." (Guy Debord)

Offline aztecan

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,398
  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 11:59:44 AM »
Every time I hear of something being detrimental to Hi-fivers, it is always a supplement - i.e. garlic, now green tea.

I like green tea and it has beneficial properties, so I drink it often. But it is not a replacement for regular ARV treatment.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Mike89406

  • Member
  • Posts: 206
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 01:49:35 PM »
Agreed Its just some people prefer to take supplements because they are easier to take, and a lot of us are used to popping pills. Some people donty like the taste of Green tea and the preperation takes longer.

As for me I like the brewed tea, and there are things you get from natural substances that you just cant get in pills. Plus to me supplements can get expensive especially if you take various ones.

One has to realize that green tea, and other hyped vitamins or herbs
may be good for you and having HIV. As you mebnioned the suplements, vitamins, herbs dont cure or stop HIV.

People have to realize these things are just enhancemement and not replacement for meds in fact there are no replacement for meds. Some or most of us will wind up on meds someday we just have to accept it.

As for me though I choose to live healthy so green tea is one of them.


« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 01:51:22 PM by Mike89406 »

Offline aztecan

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  • Posts: 5,398
  • 29 years positive, 57 years a pain in the butt
Re: Too much Green Tea is bad?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 12:46:27 PM »
Hey Mike,

I also like green tea and drink it often. I am just leery of supplements, such as the capsules, rather than the "real thing," so to speak.

I know with garlic, culinary use is just fine. In fact, I make a mean garlic soup. But using the supplements can inhibit the absorbsion/action of some of the meds.

I think that is probably the case with green tea as well.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

 


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