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Author Topic: The virus does not "die" in the air  (Read 6407 times)

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Offline milker

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The virus does not "die" in the air
« on: May 08, 2007, 05:21:04 PM »
I see many people say that the virus "dies" in the air, but the virus doesn't die in the air, since it's not a living organism it can't die  :o

Air does not "kill" HIV, but exposure to air dries the fluid that contains the virus, and that will destroy or break up much of the virus very quickly. 1 It should be noted that HIV can survive for several days in the small amount of blood that remains in a needle after use, because the blood is trapped where air cannot dry it out.
source

Also, I've seen questions as how can the virus live in the blood test samples if it doesn't like air?

Because the vials are air tight.

From the CDC:

HIV in the Environment

Scientists and medical authorities agree that HIV does not survive well in the environment, making the possibility of environmental transmission remote. HIV is found in varying concentrations or amounts in blood, semen, vaginal fluid, breast milk, saliva, and tears. (See page 3, Saliva, Tears, and Sweat.) To obtain data on the survival of HIV, laboratory studies have required the use of artificially high concentrations of laboratory-grown virus. Although these unnatural concentrations of HIV can be kept alive for days or even weeks under precisely controlled and limited laboratory conditions, CDC studies have shown that drying of even these high concentrations of HIV reduces the amount of infectious virus by 90 to 99 percent within several hours. Since the HIV concentrations used in laboratory studies are much higher than those actually found in blood or other specimens, drying of HIV-infected human blood or other body fluids reduces the theoretical risk of environmental transmission to that which has been observed--essentially zero. Incorrect interpretation of conclusions drawn from laboratory studies have unnecessarily alarmed some people.

Results from laboratory studies should not be used to assess specific personal risk of infection because (1) the amount of virus studied is not found in human specimens or elsewhere in nature, and (2) no one has been identified as infected with HIV due to contact with an environmental surface. Additionally, HIV is unable to reproduce outside its living host (unlike many bacteria or fungi, which may do so under suitable conditions), except under laboratory conditions, therefore, it does not spread or maintain infectiousness outside its host.
source

Milker.

1 I removed a sentence that may cause confusion about the time it takes to dry if you don't read the cdc info I added above.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline pozniceguy

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 05:27:02 PM »
Thanks for the reference...I"knew " that was true because my HIV  DR told me,  but had never seen the specific reference..

Nick
remember the good times...honor the past but don't live there
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Offline thunter34

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 05:31:20 PM »
So I am curious about the first quote you have up there:

Quote
It should be noted that HIV can survive for several days in the small amount of blood that remains in a needle after use, because the blood is trapped where air cannot dry it out.

How does something "survive" if it isn't "alive"?  And how does something that is not alive go through any process of infection, replication or survival.  "Not alive" to me means like a rock or something.  Inactive.  Completely sitting there with no movement or activity at all. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 05:33:10 PM »
And even this quote:

Quote
Although these unnatural concentrations of HIV can be kept alive for days or even weeks under precisely controlled and limited laboratory conditions

....speaks of the virus in terms of "alive"
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Moffie65

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 05:34:44 PM »
Milker,

One of the things that is also an unknown quotient in this is the fact that it is also very temperature sensitive.  So, if a drop of blood hits the floor and someone gets it into a cut, there is every possibility that the virus would already be exploded due to the temperature differentiation in this scenario.  Thanks for this thread, it is really important for all of us.

Love,
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 05:35:21 PM »
Well it is like a rock, inactive, it's just a bunch of proteins assembled in some way that look like a slurpy for the Tcells. A living organism is, from what I understand one or more cells. The virus is not a cell, but it needs one to become "alive". It's like having a factory waiting to be plugged in to the electricity. When it's plugged in, there it starts producing.

The "survive" word is inappropriate in scientific terms, but is used for better understanding, I guess.

Milker (who is not a scientific and will gladly accept rebuttal and comments)
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 05:36:14 PM »
Milker,

One of the things that is also an unknown quotient in this is the fact that it is also very temperature sensitive.  So, if a drop of blood hits the floor and someone gets it into a cut, there is every possibility that the virus would already be exploded due to the temperature differentiation in this scenario.  Thanks for this thread, it is really important for all of us.

Love,
Good point, Moffie, if you can find info about that it would be great. I'll see what I can find.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 05:37:56 PM »
And even this quote:

....speaks of the virus in terms of "alive"
Same thing, I believe they use "alive" to mean "unbroken".

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Moffie65

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2007, 05:41:08 PM »
Milker,

I really don't have any "proof" but I am sure you can find something.  I just know that temperature was the first hurdle with those that were studying it in the early 80's.  A friend of mine was working for a research company in San Francisco and they had to wear speedos at work because they kept the lab at 98.6F in an attempt to keep the samples viable.  Didn't work then either.

Personally I would rather talk about the latest fashion in Cock Rings, but this is certainly the wrong thread for that.  ;)

Love,
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline thunter34

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2007, 05:45:41 PM »
My main point being that this terminology is (obviously) used commonly from all levels of the field.

But to continue with this, doesn't that simply make it a parasitic organism...but an organism nonetheless?  Once it's in a cell, is it not then a "living organism"?

(I'm likely to continue arguing this as it will certainly be asked of any of us from time to time...especially if any of us here respond to the AAI forum on occasion.)  
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2007, 05:47:28 PM »
Guys, there have been over 900,000 occupational exposures in the health care industry since 1984 when they started recording them. Of those 900,000 there have been less than 100 people who ended up testing positive. Their risks were;

Needle jabs
Test tube busting, causing glass embedded in eye, cut hands and fingers
Blood in eyes
Lacerations by broken bones
Poke by suture needles
cuts by scalpels
blood in mouth by resuscitation
amniotic fluids in eyes and mouth

The the risks are very, very, very low compared to unprotected sex.

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2007, 05:48:38 PM »
Milker,

I really don't have any "proof" but I am sure you can find something.  I just know that temperature was the first hurdle with those that were studying it in the early 80's.  A friend of mine was working for a research company in San Francisco and they had to wear speedos at work because they kept the lab at 98.6F in an attempt to keep the samples viable.  Didn't work then either.

Personally I would rather talk about the latest fashion in Cock Rings, but this is certainly the wrong thread for that.  ;)

Love,
The temperature being the main reason why sperm dries, it's possible that this is how it is related?

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2007, 05:56:29 PM »
Once it's in a cell, is it not then a "living organism"?

The HIV "Lifecycle" inside the cell is a set of chemical reactions that are triggered by the initial "docking". No docking = a floating virus that does no harm. You wouldn't say that watching melting butter makes butter alive, but the way it melts is a very rigourous set of chemical reactions, same thing, except that it looks much more complex than butter.

Now I've seen that after the exit of the cell, there is a phase called "maturation". You would think that this means it is "living" since it is "maturing". From what I understand, this maturation is the time it takes for the proteins to get back in their expected shape after they exit the envelope, it's more of a physical/chemical reaction than living per say.

Once again, feel free to argue/deny, it's very interesting I think.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2007, 05:59:05 PM »
Guys, there have been over 900,000 occupational exposures in the health care industry since 1984 when they started recording them. Of those 900,000 there have been less than 100 people who ended up testing positive. Their risks were;

...
The the risks are very, very, very low compared to unprotected sex.


Rapid, my thread is absolutely not denying this; it's about getting a better understanding as exactly what makes the virus so fragile, and why do people say it's living, when it's not a cell.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2007, 06:05:43 PM »
Milkie,

Matty the Damned has always understood the terminology regarding viruses is "active/inactive" as opposed to "living/dead".

MtD

Offline thunter34

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2007, 06:15:22 PM »
Doxie and I were discussing this very thing on Skype.  Would love Matilda's input.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2007, 06:19:43 PM »
The "survive" word is inappropriate in scientific terms, but is used for better understanding, I guess.

Exactly, it's about context.  Saying it "dies" to the average person is not really that incorrect to say.
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Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 06:20:59 PM »
Exactly, it's about context.  Saying it "dies" to the average person is not really that incorrect to say.
But you are not average, my dear :)
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline JPinLA

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 07:03:40 PM »
In my experience, viruses can be described as active/inactive (latent, attenuated) as well as viable/nonviable. 

The word viability itself literally implies having the capability of life and it is commonly used in scientific literature to describe virus that is capable of infection.  Thus, a virus may be rendered nonviable or inactive via heat, air drying, chemically or some other method.  Outside of the scientific community it may well be simpler to say it "dies", which in my opinion conveys the same kind of message albeit not literally.

Viruses are parasites that depend on hosts to divide and conquer but can in fact remain viable (active) outside of these hosts for a bit of time.  Where is the line for the definition of life drawn here? 

Indeed organizations such as CDC use Live to describe different forms of vaccines such as "live virus vaccines".  They are used in "quotations" much of the time so it might be tongue and cheek but to the layperson it is most likely the most easily understood.

JP (who is a member of the scientific community and enjoys the word viable)
11/06 - Diagnosed - VL/5784 & CD4 326
2/07 - VL/6000 & CD4 290 2/07
3//07 -Began Truvada/Viramune 
4/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 320 22%
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Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 10:38:03 PM »
In my experience, viruses can be described as active/inactive (latent, attenuated) as well as viable/nonviable.
Thanks JP, I thought about Matty's active/inactive that I initially liked, but I was stuck with "can activate itself at anytime" in my mind, which is not possible. I like viable/non-viable a lot.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline ndrew

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 02:30:11 AM »
But doesn't the word "parasite" imply that something is living?  Viruses require cells in order to replicate, so in order for them to be active, there must be cells?  Some viruses remain viable in certain environments and others do not is what I am understanding?  A cold virus can remain viable on a door knob, but HIV cannot??

This is very educating.

Drew


Offline fearless

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 03:10:21 AM »
I think the scientific community still debates whether or not viruses are alive or not. But, consensus seems to be that they do not satisfy all the requirements to be considered living.

If my memory serves me correctly, the fact that they do not respond to their environment, being the main objection to them being 'living' as such, and they do not have a cell structure.
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Offline Cerrid

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 06:42:17 AM »
I'd think NASA guys looking for extraterrestial life forms have a similar problem as to what actually is regarded as "living"... Here's what wikipedia says about the definition of Life. There are are few criteria which have to be met in order to call something "alive":

1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.

2. Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
   
4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
   
5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
   
6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
   
7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

HIV meets only points 7 (reproduction) and 5 (adaptation). Hence, it's not alive according to this definition.
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Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2007, 09:08:30 AM »
Viruses require cells in order to replicate, so in order for them to be active, there must be cells? 
Yes.

"A single virus particle (virion) is in and of itself essentially inert. It lacks needed components that cells have to reproduce. Viruses are intracellular obligate parasites which means that they cannot reproduce or express their genes without the help of a living cell.

Once a virus has "infected" a cell, it will "marshal" the cell's ribosomes, enzymes and much of the cellular machinery to reproduce.
" source

Some viruses remain viable in certain environments and others do not is what I am understanding?  A cold virus can remain viable on a door knob, but HIV cannot??
Yes, otherwise we'd have a vaccine for HIV  :-[ I don't know why some viruses remain more viable than others outside the body. My guess is that the proteins and enzymes that compose the virus each have a chemical capacity to break down at certain temperatures, and the HIV breaks down faster than the Avian virus.

"HPAI (avian flu) viruses can remain viable for long periods of time at moderate temperatures in the environment, and can survive indefinitely in frozen material. In poultry houses, live virus has been found more than 100 days after the facility was depopulated. One gram of contaminated manure can contain enough virus to infect 1 million birds." source

An interesting article:

"Argument continues over whether viruses are truly alive. According to the United States Code, they are considered microorganisms in the sense of biological weaponry and malicious use. Scientists, however, are divided. Things become complicated as they look at simple viruses, viroids and prions. Viruses resemble other organisms in that they possess nucleic acid, and can respond - in infected cells - to their environment in a limited fashion. They can also reproduce by creating multiple copies of themselves through simple self-assembly.

Viruses do not have a cell structure, regarded as the basic unit of life. Additionally, although they reproduce, they do not metabolise on their own and therefore require a host cell to replicate and synthesise new products. However, bacterial species such as Rickettsia and Chlamydia, while living organisms, are also unable to reproduce outside of a host cell. An argument can be made that all accepted forms of life use cell division to reproduce, whereas all viruses spontaneously assemble within cells. The comparison is drawn between viral self-assembly and the autonomous growth of non-living crystals. Virus self-assembly within host cells also has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules[citation needed].

If viruses are considered alive, then the criteria specifying life will have been permanently changed, leading scientists to question what the basic prerequisite of life is. If they are considered living then the prospect of creating artificial life is enhanced, or at least the standards required to call something artificially alive are reduced. If viruses were said to be alive, the question could follow of whether other even smaller infectious particles, such as viroids and prions, would next be considered forms of life.
" source

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

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Offline JPinLA

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2007, 10:21:12 AM »
I for one do not consider them to be living in the traditional sense.  A virus's ability to interact with and effect living systems is undeniable mostly via rapid reproduction of themselves in infected cells and ultimate destruction of said cells (now obviously this is a generalization and oversimplified, but you get the drift). 

They are indeed rather primitive sorts of lives and I would dare say, like what Milker posts above, many evolutionary biologists like to look toward viruses to begin to understand the origins of life from the primordial ooze.  It could be that these represent the remnants of very early organisims whose machinary assembeled together happen-chance.  Along with the perfect compartmentalization via fatty bubbles to enclose them they could have indeed created early cells.  Very interesting.

In any case, it's a very interesting discussion and in my mind there could be compelling arguments either way.

In any case, alive or not, viruses are capable of drastically effecting life and if left "alive", unchecked or misunderstood pose a substantial problem. 
11/06 - Diagnosed - VL/5784 & CD4 326
2/07 - VL/6000 & CD4 290 2/07
3//07 -Began Truvada/Viramune 
4/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 320 22%
7/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 286 22%
11/07 VL/undetectable and CD4 302 26%

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2007, 11:38:24 PM »
If viruses contain enzymes, then wouldn't the enzymes be the "force" that make them "alive" ?

From what I understand, enzymes are proteins that have catalyst properties, that is, they have energy. Energy is key for modifying protein shapes, so we could say that enzymes, which are atom formations that dissipate energy, is the basis of life, which would reduce to "energy is the basis of life". Is it?

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Cerrid

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 05:17:57 AM »
From what I understand, enzymes are proteins that have catalyst properties, that is, they have energy.

Not quite. Enzymes do not have energy by themselves. They are rather like engines which require fuel to work. There are high-energy molecules like ATP which make the enzymes move and do stuff, biological mars bars if you wish. Either that, or the enzymes catalyze reactions which are thermodynamically favoured anyway, i.e. the enzyme accelerates the process which releases energy - which in turn can be used to make new mars bars.
"Boredom is always counterrevolutionary. Always." (Guy Debord)

Offline milker

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Re: The virus does not "die" in the air
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 11:04:21 AM »
Not quite. Enzymes do not have energy by themselves. They are rather like engines which require fuel to work. There are high-energy molecules like ATP which make the enzymes move and do stuff, biological mars bars if you wish. Either that, or the enzymes catalyze reactions which are thermodynamically favoured anyway, i.e. the enzyme accelerates the process which releases energy - which in turn can be used to make new mars bars.

Ahhhhhhhhhh thanks for the explanation :)

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

 


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