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Author Topic: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products  (Read 5017 times)

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Offline SASA39

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Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« on: May 08, 2007, 10:58:29 AM »
Quote HIVworker ( in intention not to be judged as anyones advocate ):
Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.
So here we go................

For those who are NOT on any kind of HAART :

•   Immune Assist 247   ( www.alohamedicinals.com )

•   Immune renew  ( www.nowfoods.com )

•   AHCC ( Active Hexose Correlated Compound )

•   PARACTIN natural Interferon gamma ( www.herbal-powers.com Consult Dr . first )


Multivitamins/minerals K-Pax or much cheaper Twinlab (Mega Rich Timed Release )  :

(or separate products :

•   Vitamin C( C Buffered vitamin with bioflavonoids)
•   B complex &  B12 
•   Zinc (Zinc picolinate )
•   Magnesium
•   Folic acid-800 mcg
•   Vitamin D3
•   Calcium citrate-300 mg Twinlab   
•   Vitamin E-1000
•   Pantothenic acid

 Selenium ( Brasilian nuts)(antioxidant)

Green tea & White tea or extract(cathehins polyfenols & EGCG) Twinlab(antioxidant)

Yerba Matr tea -Dicaffeoylquinic acid ( www.herbal-powers.com)

NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine   NOW   N-Acetylcysteine-600 mg three times a day for six to eight weeks, then continue indefinitely at a lower maintenance dose NOW  (anti mythochondrial toxicity)


  α-Lipoic acid  Twinlab 6(antioxidant , anti lipodysthophy , anti mythochondrial toxicity)

L-Carnitine-500 mg twice daily ( Acetil L-Carnitine )  NOW(anti lipodysthophy)

L-Lysine

Ω-3 Fish oil  NOW ( preferable moleculary destiled)( antioxidant)

Mumio ( Russian nature minerals & vitamins)( antioxidant)

Proteins in powder( for maintaining your muscle mass)

Bio Yoghurt ( friendly bacteria) or

Ocasionally product`s :

•   Royal jelly( boost immune system but if taken to often may provoke rezistance and side effects )  NOW

•   Liquerice root (nauzea ) NOW

•   Sylmarin (liver detoxication)  Twinlab

•   Cranberry juice –extract ( urinary tract ) NOW

•   Ginko Biloba ( for preserving brain funkctions)

•   Digesive enzymes

•   Gr-8 Dophilus Probiotic capules NOW

QUESTIONABLE PRODUCTS :

•   CoQ10 (?)

•   Β 1.3-1.6 Glucani (may use same liver enzymes as some HAART drugs! )

•   GliSODin (SuperOxideTransmutase )  ( raised level in HAD hivers ! )

•   Pycnogenol (?)  Twinlab

•   Ecomer ( could provoke a lymphoma growth or undesirable VL increase ? )

•   Melatonin (could provoke a lymphoma growth ? )

•   HGH (could provoke a lymphoma growth ?)

Any comments are more than welcome
                                                                      Al


Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Online BT65

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 12:08:24 PM »
Maybe things like this should be in the Nutrition and HIV section.
I've never killed anyone, but I frequently get satisfaction reading the obituary notices.-Clarence Darrow

Offline SASA39

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 01:48:01 PM »
Yap ! :D
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline bimazek

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 02:50:49 AM »
almost everything on your list is great and good
and esp. these i have read are important with hiv
i take one in am and one in pm

multi vitamin mineral

Selenium -- very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs

Green tea  EGCG -- very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs

NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine   NOW   N-Acetylcysteine-600 mg -- very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs

α-Lipoic acid  Twinlab 6(antioxidant , anti lipodysthophy , anti mythochondrial toxicity)  -- very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs

L-Lysine   -- very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs

Ω-3 Fish oil  NOW ( preferable moleculary destiled)( antioxidant)

Proteins in powder( for maintaining your muscle mass)

Bio Yoghurt ( friendly bacteria) or

Ocasionally product`s :

•   Liquerice root anti viral


•   CoQ10 (?)-- very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs buyt expensive

•   Melatonin



all the above are very good

when i say

very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs
there is no substitute for meds but i feel if you take these you may delay by 10% the normal time
so if normally
7 years ... you may get 8 before meds


Offline Ann

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    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2007, 04:51:03 AM »
I don't bother taking any of that stuff and I'm med-free for ten years now.

There's not one shred of evidence that any of this stuff will delay taking meds for any length of time for anyone. Just sayin...

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline frenchpat

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2007, 05:08:15 AM »
I don't bother taking any of that stuff and I'm med-free for ten years now.

There's not one shred of evidence that any of this stuff will delay taking meds for any length of time for anyone. Just sayin...

Ann


I've been taking some of those and have entered my 3rd year of meds, 5 years into infection...

there is no rule, just diversity I guess  ;D be careful with snake oil though:



frog hair? banjo breath??? Goolyweasels!!!???  And I thought HIV was bad :o :o :o

Pat
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 05:21:05 AM by frenchpat »
People have the power - Patti Smith

Offline SASA39

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 06:25:07 AM »
[size=14
Immune Assist247 is a HIV  remedy/drug in research in some African countries
Paractin-IL has prove its power into CD4 boosting
Bcomplex has prove its efficaency against lipodystophy and fatigue
Green Tea & Selenium has proved their efficaency in HIV supression
α-Lipoic acid  is  a known antioxidant , anti lipodysthophy , anti mythochondrial toxicity agens
Friendly bacteria could help healthy gut restoring
etc , etc.........
There are more than a shread of evidence of those actions .
Scietific and here on AM by forum members
One could easily found those...............
Maybe these product are not working for anyone , and maybe not all of them , but it is left for a consumer to make his own choice..........
And together even in a Serbia one could get a fair amount of these ( one month suplly ) for a 100$
How much money do you spent to some other much more dangerous things like tobbaco or booze ?
But choice is yours , my intention was only to help...........as always
Just sayin.........................
                      Al

pt][/size]
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 06:26:42 AM by SASA39 »
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2007, 06:36:54 AM »
Al,

I don't have any problem with you being interested in taking supplements and other things but I totally agree with Goderator Ann here. There is no evidence that any of these things you've listed will extend the period people can go before they need to consider taking HAART.

MtD

Offline SASA39

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  • Posts: 690
Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2007, 08:49:46 AM »
[size=12Let me be clear on this so i would not have to explain that again.
First it was my mistake because I did not stated a separate purpose of these additional products :
so ,here we go again :
Immune Assist 247
http://www.alohamedicinals.com/HIV_trial.htm
this product is under investigation, so maybe I`m wrong about it , time will tell
Interleukin : IL 2 and more IL 7 has proven their efficiency in boosting CD4 number
EECG ( Green tea )  has proven suppression ability
Selenium also
α-Lipoic acid ,Bcomplex,NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine  , Multivitamins, are deficient in HIV +people - proven
I did not say that all these product could extend non-drug period.
( although selenium and G.Tea could possibly do that and they are cheap and tastefull )
My thoughts were turned to a depletion of natural chemicals in the body . That kind of depletion could short a period to some side effects , ( PN , LD ) because this bug is in our cell core .Therefore for the drugs to be efficient , they have to mess up with cell structure disturbing a Creb`s circle and provoking a nasty free radicals  , anemia, bone loss, bone marrow damage, liver damage, kidney problems, cholesterol and blood lipid problems that cause stroke, heart attack and death, and the list goes on.That has been proven.So why not supplement our body with extra natural chemicals that could help to fight against side effects.I know that a synthetic is not a substitute of a natural one , but do we have a choice ? Even if a small particle of those drugs could be transformed into a needed chemicals in our body it would be a success.
Note that I did not mention some exotic herbs and "Snake Oil products " here like "quick silver" or so.
And as I can recall there were some threads considering some supplements and stories from the AM forum members were more than encouraging.
I have asked my doc ( and he is a very good one in HIV world ) should I be taken some of these products > He said to me : "Yes " ( although I know that he is a strongly against some " Snake skin " products as well )
Again I do not mean to start anything like arguing , because our time here is to short for that , and we should stand together but , maybe some of our members would have some to add ( HIVworker , newt , Matt Mee ........)
On the other hand if there was not any benefit from additional products , why then is a purpose of this board.....
I would like you to demant me .............that way I would be spending less money on the add. products and more on the beer ;D
( and a mixture of beer and a bitter lemon is excellent for these summer hot days , next best thing after smoking a p** through a watermellon ) ;D

pt][/size]

edited for typos
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 09:20:05 AM by SASA39 »
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline Ann

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2007, 09:38:05 AM »

very important with hiv helps but only delays going on meds a few months or yrs
there is no substitute for meds but i feel if you take these you may delay by 10% the normal time
so if normally
7 years ... you may get 8 before meds



Al,

My comments were in reaction to the above comments from Bimazek.

The thing is, there really isn't a way to prove without doubt that any of these supplements will delay the need for meds. Everyone reacts to the presence of hiv in their body differently. If I were taking these supplements, I could probably claim that the supplements were the cause of my not needing meds for ten years and counting. But I'm not taking them, in fact, I'm not really doing anything special, other than doing what I can to keep my stress levels down.

What I had in mind when I posted was some poor sod who spends loads of money on supplements, but experiences disease progression anyway. They'd probably feel that they'd failed in some way because they'd placed too much faith in the power of these supplements, based on people telling them that they do definitely delay progression, when in fact it hasn't been proven conclusively.

I didn't intend to start an argument either, I was voicing my opinion on the matter. I've no problem with anyone deciding to take the supplements as long as they realise that it's no guarantee of anything.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline frenchpat

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  • Posts: 516
  • Love your friends, don't eat them.
Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2007, 10:07:54 AM »
Hi All,

my own comment was in reaction to Bimazek's and Ann's, to illustrate the variety of responses to:

1) hiv
2) supplements
3) time

Also, when it comes to claims made here I think one needs to be honest and careful:

- please link the scientific papers making the claim that substance X works

- be aware that shitloads of things can kill the virus, in a petri dish. Once in the body it is a different story, obviously.

Pat


People have the power - Patti Smith

Offline SASA39

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2007, 10:12:27 AM »
Yes this bug is bad .It mess with all our cells at the core of them.
For me a time from primary infection to HAART depends on many factors : genetics , type of strain , life habits , amount of stress, and despite the use of additional product there are no guarantees that it would not progress to AIDS. But could we slow down the damages provoked by virus and  side-feects provoked by drugs later .
My answer is yes.
And Brasil nuts and Green tea along with for instance Centrum Multi are realy cheap.........not more than a 15-20$ per month.Everybody can afford that amount of money ( in a every better economic state country )
And yes I will try to provide some serious links to my claims in near future.
Otherwise I would be a ......... and I was not used to be that one.
Edited for FP answer ( which has been as Ann`s  answer too,good heart welcomed by Al)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:24:54 AM by SASA39 »
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 02:54:20 PM »
I don't bother taking any of that stuff and I'm med-free for ten years now.

There's not one shred of evidence that any of this stuff will delay taking meds for any length of time for anyone.

Yup, that's the truth. Personally I urgently needed HAART 6 years after infection and guess what - I was taking selenium and digestive enzymes long before I even knew I had HIV. I've been taking meds since late 2005 so my timetable for needing to start HAART was pretty much in-line with the statistics. I wish I would've started at a higher CD4 count though

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2007, 05:16:10 PM »
Sorry Al,

Matty the Damned misread Ann's post and thought she was referring to your comments. He should read more carefully.

:-*

MtD

Offline SASA39

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2007, 02:08:08 PM »
Here is a link to a report considering mitochondrial toxicity and some additional supplements.Notice the 8 ,9 , 11 , 18 , 23 , 46 , 50  & 56 page.
It is a bit old link but nevertheless a good ,and a little stresfull.
http://www.hivforum.org/publications/mitochondrial_toxicity.pdf
                                            Al
« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 02:11:33 PM by SASA39 »
Oct.     `06.  CD4=58  ?    %       VL not perform. ?!?
25.Dec.`06.         203       14        VL= 0
29.May.`07.    broken device        VL=1363
20.June`07     broken device        VL=0
25.Dec `07  CD4=582                  VL=70
14.May `08  CD4=448
29.July `08                                  VL=0
26.Nov `08  CD4=674                    VL=179
16.Mar `09  CD4=554                    VL=0
19.Jan`10 CD4=715               
03.Mar`10                                    VL=0
24.Aug`10 CD4=524                     VL=0
04.Dec`10 CD4=626                     VL=0
15.Sep`11                                   VL=93
17.Nov`11                                   VL=0
05/26 .Jul`12 CD4=713                 VL=0
28.Nov`12 CD4=916                     VL=0
09.May`13                                 VL=0

Offline Steven

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2007, 11:33:32 AM »
The thing is, there really isn't a way to prove without doubt that any of these supplements will delay the need for meds. Everyone reacts to the presence of hiv in their body differently. If I were taking these supplements, I could probably claim that the supplements were the cause of my not needing meds for ten years and counting. But I'm not taking them, in fact, I'm not really doing anything special, other than doing what I can to keep my stress levels down.

I usually stress the point that each individual needs to "listen" to their own body.
What is good for one may not be good for another.
There is No Scientific Evidence that says taking supplements will buy you another year or two before taking meds. For one thing they have not put a lot of $$$ into doing this type of research. 


Offline carousel

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2007, 12:57:32 PM »
I rarely take supplements, because a lot of the time I think they are a waste of money.  Ginseng this, garlic that, omega 3's. 

I hope that I have a balanced diet.  I rarely eat processed foods, haven't had any fast food in months, don't eat fried food.  I love fish and eat as much as possible.  I eat lots of fruit and vegetables.

I sometimes buy pro-biotics, but I think it's all the mind.  As I flit around the supermarket, I try to buy things that are good for me.  Don't want the person behind me sneering at my buying spaghetti hoops or a family size bag of cheesy wotsits. 

I can't be bothered to buy mineral water, tap water will do.

I've got my green tea, but it sits in the cupboard, as I drink it under duress. 

Does this have any effect on my HIV, who knows.  It makes me feel like I'm living healthily, but it is not an obsession. 

I also think that it is about time that the claims made for health foods and supplements should be rigorously tested.  There are so many so-called benefits that are simply fraudulent.

Offline Merlin

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Re: Lessons in HIV part I by SASA39 - Additional products
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2007, 03:30:16 PM »
I have to agree with Steven. Listen to your body as I have mine. There are some supplements that have consistently helped me with some problems, so I am convinced. For others, there no real way to know other than one's own holistic feeling, which is not entirely accurate sometime.

Be careful what we wish for carousel, :P 'cos the ruling to regulate supplements by the FDA is already in the pipeline. This originated from an European trade order from the WTO, which has already passed as law in some countries in Europe, like Germany, where one will need a doctor's prescription to buy supplements and at what dosage. That would be a really sad day for consumers and freedom of choice; but am pretty sure big pharma will be in 7th heaven. If it does become law cos consumers don't write to their congressman to veto that bill, watch the obvious rise in medication costs, which is already way way too expensive. ::)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2007, 03:37:47 PM by Merlin »
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