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Author Topic: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House  (Read 4894 times)

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Offline Miss Philicia

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237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« on: May 03, 2007, 02:48:20 PM »
Watch an openly gay member of Congress announce the final tally

click your heels for Barney!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 03:01:58 PM »
RESPONSE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE:


A statement from the Executive Office of the President said: "The
Administration favors strong criminal penalties for violent crime,
including crime based on personal characteristics, such as race, color,
religion, or national origin.

"However, the Administration believes that H.R. 1592 is unnecessary and
constitutionally questionable."

Word is Bush is going to veto it.

Andy Velez

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 03:08:08 PM »
What an asswipe.  Can '08 PLEASE hurry up?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 03:20:57 PM »
This PS update from the (mal)administration:

The statement by the Office of Management and Budget in the Executive
Office of the President didn't say Bush PLANS TO veto it. It said his
senior advisers would recommend that he veto it. While this may amount to
the same thing in practice, it's different wording. See
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/legislative/sap/110-1/hr1592sap-h.pdf.

Andy Velez

Offline jimw

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 04:44:45 PM »
If we shaved his head I bet we would find a 666 birthmark!

Offline mjmel

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 07:31:29 PM »
I was thinking the exact same thoughts as Philly while I was scrolling throught the post. I'll say it again.
What an asswipe! Can't wait till he's outta there.
xxx,
Mike

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 07:40:00 PM »
He has to veto it. Who decides the hate? Who decides what is in a persons mind when he kills or commits the crime? There are ample penalties on the books for every crime imaginable. I still cant believe our congress wastes time on crap like this. I guess its to buy votes from people who are impressed by this. I just dont get it.
This could be the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.
If I kill someone,who cares why I killed them,I deserve the penalty. Now if I did it out of hate the penalty will be greater? How do you decide why I did it?
Its sounds so noble, laws against hate crimes, and then you think about it for 5 seconds and you realize the utter stupidity of it. Are you gonna hang a killer twice cause he did something out of hate? What is hate?
Did Don Imus say what he said out of hate or was he trying to be funny? Who decides?

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 07:45:07 PM »
what really pisses me off is the same people who support tripe like hate laws want to protect others from penalties from committing crimes because of their economic conditions,education, or if they were abused or whatever.
I  kill someone if he was mean to me or I have had a tough life and i get one penalty but if I kill someone out of hate it deserves another penalty? It fucking 1984! We have Thought Nazis,Speech Nazis, and of course the Warmer Nazis.

Offline RAB

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 08:07:23 PM »
Jack

When some good old boys in Texas chain a black man to the back of their pickup and drag him to his death for no reason other than the fact he is black, the hate is obvious. The intent is clear.  There isn't just one victim.  Everyone who's skin is of the same color is also a victim.

When some religious wack job skin head, takes it upon himself to blow up Jewish Synagogues simply because of the faith represented, the hate is obvious.  The intent is clear.  There isn't just one victim.  Everyone who is of the Jewish faith is a victim.

When some white boys in Wyoming chained Mathew Sheppard to a fence post, beat him, and then left him to die for no reason other than the fact he was gay, the hate is obvious.  The intent is clear.  There isn't just one victim.  Everyone who is gay or lesbian is a victim.

It's just another form of intolerance, another form of terrorism upon particular segments of society. We aren't talking about crimes of passion.  We aren't talking about random crimes.  We are talking about crimes directed at specific individuals for no reason other than those protected classes.   Depending of what area of the country the crime is commited those intentions are either given weight or they are not.  Federal legislation, would insure that the message is loud and clear, if you commit a crime against someone based solely upon their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, you will face serious consequences.

I agree Jack, if someone commits murder there are ample laws to dole out the appropriate punishment.  But when someone commits murder for the sole reason of someone's skin color, someone's religious beliefs, someone's sexual orientation, then those crimes rise to an entirely different level.  The victims reach far beyond.

RAB

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 08:21:57 PM »
I just am amazed how the left wants more laws to govern thought or intent. Who cares why a person commits a crime? That should never enter into the equation, if someone commits a crime he should be punished.
Were the guys in East Texas punished? Yes. Should they have been punished more because they hate blacks? Who decides that? Who judges what is a persons mind? You all arent asking these questions.  You just love the term Hate Law, I guess, I can see no other reason why any thinking person would be for laws that attemp to judge what is in a persons mind. I know why the Congress is voting for it, they are voting for it cause it sounds good and they think it will buy them votes.  I just dont understand why any free person would want the government judging his thoughts.
Why dont we just use the laws on the books?

Rab, every crime you have described,which you or someone has judged caused by hate, has a penalty.
Why should crimes based upon race,religion,gender,sex orientation have higher consequences than the same crimes for different reasons??? That is just the craziest thing I have ever heard of.

Fuck, why not just make a law that says if you kill or commit a crime against a gay,any person of any race, any religion,or sexual orientation gets double the sentence or punishment? That way you wouldnt have to determine thought. Its the same thing.

Offline libvet

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 08:42:03 PM »
what really pisses me off is the same people who support tripe like hate laws want to protect others from penalties from committing crimes because of their economic conditions,education, or if they were abused or whatever.
I  kill someone if he was mean to me or I have had a tough life and i get one penalty but if I kill someone out of hate it deserves another penalty? It fucking 1984! We have Thought Nazis,Speech Nazis, and of course the Warmer Nazis.

Oh, please spare us the melodramatics.

Let's be real honest.  The reasons most people are against hate crime laws are either they don't understand what they are because they are misrepresented by the right wing as punishing people for thought, which is blatantly untrue, or they believe that somehow hate crime laws "exalt" a specific minority over another, which is also blatantly untrue, or that it somehow means EVERY crime committed against someone who is black or gay or Muslim or Mexican is somehow a hate crime, which is also blatantly untrue.

Motive and intent have long been considered in criminal proceedings. 

It is intent and motive that make the difference between the act of killing someone being first degree murder, second degree murder, and manslaughter.

No matter how you spin it, no one is going to go to jail for thinking the "wrong thing".   

You are not going to go to jail for thinking you hate Muslims (or gays, Jews, Christians, Mexicans, Mormons, Catholics, blacks, whites, Asians, straights, etc).   You aren't even going to go to jail for talking about how much you hate Muslims.

Now, if you decide to act on that hatred and say, desecrate a mosque by smearing pig blood all over the doors of that mosque or spray paint "AIDS: Cures fags dead" on some gay person's house, then it's a little bit more serious than say, toilet papering a neighbor's house as a prank.

To some extent, the actions of a hate crime are analogous to terrorism.  Hate crimes are generally meant not only as an action against a specific individual, but to send a message to an entire group of people (such as burning a cross on the yard of a black family that moved into a "white" neighborhood to let them AND anyone else of that race know that they are not welcome and will be subject to harrassment and maybe even violence).

Or the example I gave yesterday:  Is there really no difference that someone bumping into some random asshole who decides to haul off and hit you and some guy who hangs out near a gay bar waiting for some gay guy to come out so he can beat the shit out of him for being gay?   

On the surface, they are both assaults.....but are the crimes different?  I believe they are.   Maybe the guy in the first example was just having a bad day and lashed out in a moment of irritation.  That's a bit different than targeting someone for violence based on some innate trait.

And really, hate crimes are less about the victim than one would imagine from the spin the right wingnuts like to put on it.  It is about establishing the motive and intent of the accused.  It's about the aggravating circumstances in the crime that make it rise above the random criminal action. 

If you want to talk about hypocrisy, look no further than your friends in the right wing who think we should kill or imprison everyone associated in any way with al-Qaida whether they have actually committed a terrorist act or not.  Isn't that really punishing a "thought crime" rather than an actual act?   

The difference is that a hate crime actually requires a criminal act (assault, rape, vandalism, felonious harassment, murder, etc) to occur with a specific intent to inflict harm on someone based upon an inherent trait.

You might want to think about that before spouting nonsense about how all crimes are exactly the same, regardless of intent or how hate crimes are about punishing thought.

Offline libvet

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2007, 08:47:51 PM »
I just am amazed how the left wants more laws to govern thought or intent. Who cares why a person commits a crime? That should never enter into the equation, if someone commits a crime he should be punished.

Oh really?  So a guy who kills his wife who is in intractable pain from terminal cancer to spare her from weeks more of needless suffering should suffer the same fate as a guy who takes out a million dollar policy on his wife and then shoots her and blames it on a make believe intruder so he can collect the insurance money?

Motive shouldn't be considered?

A guy who steals five dollars from a coke machine because his family is starving should suffer the same fate as a person who steals millions from his company to sustain a lavish lifestyle? 

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 09:19:15 AM »
I am talking about the unintended consequences of such a law. Everyone, conservative and liberal, is repulsed by any crime motivated by hate but the moment you start judging severity of punishment for crimes based upon the reason in the mind of the criminal for committing the crime you have really opened a Pandora's box of ethical and moral issues and of course a gold mine for lawyers, which is probably the main reason the Dems are all for this. Their largest contributor are trial lawyers.
Lets say Don Imus shot a mugger in NY today,who happened to be African American. Is Dons speech over the past 20 years proof of hatred? Long before his horrid attempt at humor about the women's basketball team, he made scores of dispicable racial comments about Quen Eifel, Condi Rice, and of course Clarence Thomas as well as other African Americans,all the time claiming it was humor. Maybe it was really hatred? Maybe because of his hatred he over reacted to the mugger. Maybe he should have just surrendered his wallet and gone on his way, but his hatred caused him to shoot the mugger.
I am sure most here have good intentions in regards to this law but we pay our congressman to think about what might be the long term effect of such a law on thought, not to stick their finger in the wind. Our Congressman are supposed to be doing what is best for the country not satisfying our every whim just to make us feel better.

Offline Basquo

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 09:32:14 AM »
what really pisses me off is the same people who support tripe like hate laws want to protect others from penalties from committing crimes because of their economic conditions,education, or if they were abused or whatever.

Stop generalising.  Just because I support one thing doesn't mean I have to support the others. Everyone is unique, so please stop lumping people together.

Offline libvet

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 09:49:45 AM »
Lets say Don Imus shot a mugger in NY today,who happened to be African American. Is Dons speech over the past 20 years proof of hatred? Long before his horrid attempt at humor about the women's basketball team, he made scores of dispicable racial comments about Quen Eifel, Condi Rice, and of course Clarence Thomas as well as other African Americans,all the time claiming it was humor. Maybe it was really hatred? Maybe because of his hatred he over reacted to the mugger. Maybe he should have just surrendered his wallet and gone on his way, but his hatred caused him to shoot the mugger.
I am sure most here have good intentions in regards to this law but we pay our congressman to think about what might be the long term effect of such a law on thought, not to stick their finger in the wind. Our Congressman are supposed to be doing what is best for the country not satisfying our every whim just to make us feel better.


What a convoluted and daft example.  Are you trying to suggest in the example that Imus went out of his way to be mugged by someone of a certain race in order to express his hatred of black people through a violent criminal act?

That's exactly the kind of moronic example that right wingnuts would like people to think hate crime legislation is all about. 

Try again, friend. 

And I find it interesting that talking heads that constantly rail against hate crime legislation tend to come from the same party that panders to homophobes and racists and other forms of prejudice to get votes.  (Let's be honest, the republicans "Southern Strategy" for winning elections was based primarily on pandering to people who were upset over the end of segregation and the civil rights movement).


Offline Dachshund

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2007, 09:56:24 AM »
I'm glad you can see the wisdom of James Dobson and Focus On The Families intense lobbying efforts to defeat this bill. What is their motivation for defeating this bill Jake is their intense hatred for homosexuals and your tacit agreement. Don't patronize us with your "I'm sure you have good intention statements" and ridiculous statements about dems and lawyers, without even a mention of the far rights rabid attempts to derail this bill. Thankfully, twenty-five Republicans had the courage to cross party lines and vote for the bill.

That said you will never understand our "good intentions" about the hate crime bill because you are not gay...well at least not openly. You explain to Matthew Shepard's mother about "tripe hate crime laws" Sometimes I am shocked at how insensitive you are, I guess carrying around that much guilt makes it easy.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2007, 09:59:21 AM »
I'm glad you can see the wisdom of James Dobson and Focus On The Families intense lobbying efforts to defeat this bill. What is their motivation for defeating this bill Jake is their intense hatred for homosexuals and your tacit agreement. Don't patronize us with your "I'm sure you have good intention statements" and ridiculous statements about dems and lawyers, without even a mention of the far rights rabid attempts to derail this bill. Thankfully, twenty-five Republicans had the courage to cross party lines and vote for the bill.

That said you will never understand our "good intentions" about the hate crime bill because you are not gay...well at least not openly. You explain to Matthew Shepard's mother about "tripe hate crime laws" Sometimes I am shocked at how insensitive you are, I guess carrying around that much guilt makes it easy.


edited: because I am angry
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 10:01:00 AM by Dachshund »

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2007, 10:55:29 AM »
Let me ask you this, if someone kills a gay person because he hates gays,and  someone can prove he hates gays ,and the punishment for this is presently life in prison or death, what are you gonna add on with this new hate law? What is the purpose of the law? If the penalty is already death or life in prison, do you think the added new hate law is gonna stop the criminal from committing the crime?
My point is the law is not only worthless but adds a possibility of our litigious society taking this law and using for things other than its intended purpose, which I guess is to makes hate illegal or makes certain groups feel good?

The law will make lawyers a fortune and add millions to the Dem Party coffers,which is I guess the main reason Congressmen are voting for it.

I can imagine every car wreck where one person from one sexual orientation hits another or different race, this will be brought up. This law could very well cause an increase in hatred of the groups that want it and protected by it. I guess every group  and every race will be using it against each other. If an African American runs into my car or screws me in a legal matter, I can call Hate crime. Its just nuts and unnecessary

Offline Dachshund

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2007, 11:15:55 AM »
Your lack of insensitivity is astounding but not surprising. This law would have little or no affect on you but means much to the vast majority of people that use this site. You might have waited until the ink was dry before mooing your same ol' blame the dems argument.

It is pointless to you because you have never had your ass kicked, denied employment or housing, or had invectives screamed at you by strangers, listen to the right wing blame us for all that is wrong with America, or relegated to second class citizenship over and over again.

Your callous disregard for the feelings of the majority of people that use this site is typical. Oh well, shudder to think that Matthew Shepard's mom would "feel good."

Funny though a homophobe would kick your ass and run you out of town as fast as any other out of the closet homosexual...and you would be the first in line to sue. I hope it makes you feel better about yourself but I should heed the mods and not respond to a troll.

Offline randym431

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2007, 11:18:50 AM »
Here in iOwa they just passed a hate crimes bill. Mainly out of trouble gays encounter in schools and on campus. And only in that democrats control things here, again, did this bill even see the light of day. Thank God for the last election!!! I don’t know if you've been in a Jr high school lately, but calling people “fag” is used constantly as the ultimate insult. And its not like one black guy calling another black guy the "N" word out of humor. The school kids use fag as the meanest insult they can come up with.
I was in my 13 year old niece's school for a music show, and after the show all the kids were in the halls fag this and fag that.
It was not a nice environment to be in. And I can not imagine any openly gay student, or suspected gay student,  surviving in that climate. It would be total hell.

When O.J. was let off the hook by the jury, he was slammed with a civil suit that was successful. Not the "go to jail" justice, but at least some justice for the families.

This hate crime bill is way overdue. But what gets me are the excuses Bush uses to veto it. Saying states already have laws. Well, not all states. If your a victim and lucky enough to live in a state that has laws, great. But not everyone is that lucky. For every Mathew Sheppard made public, there are thousands that get no attention.
Even here in iOwa, an openly gay former student announced he was going to attend a class reunion. He had moved out of state, but was returning to attend the event. First, he began getting treating and hate phone calls, from other former students, warning him not to attend. But that did not deter him from returning to attend. Then, after the reunion, some time later he was found burnt to death in his car. And the local police labeled it, if you can believe this, "a suicide". It was never solved or pursued by the locals.

In reality, I know old GW Bush could care less one way or another. But its a chance for him to, maybe, stir up a point or two in his approval ratings with the sick unmoral so called "religious right". Thats all it means to him. Tap into that hate he stirred up in the past elections, making gays the new enemy. Karl and GW were very good at pulling that one off.

Why this bill is needed, is, when the lack of local law fails to protect hate crime victims, they will have a national option to seek justice. Their only option in most cases.

And how about some of those so called "religious right" responses to the bill? They claim it hinders their "freedom of speech". Yea, right, their freedom of speech to be openly bigoted and stir up those that follow thru with the violent attacks.

The voters tossed a lot of these vermin out of office in the last election. But the work is still not done by any means. Bush will veto this bill "this" time, but that will NOT be the last word.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 11:20:33 AM by randym431 »

Offline Moffie65

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2007, 11:24:09 AM »
Its just nuts and unnecessary

Jake,

You are in over your head on this one and are making statements you don't even agree with...  Shit man, the above statement and your patent denial of OUR REALITY IN LIFE are more than ample reason for this law.  I used to watch vans from the baptist churches in Walnut Creek California, arrive on Friday night on Castro street, disembark with pipes and baseball bats, screaming "KILL A QUEER FOR CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!

Damn you Jake, you know in your heart you are wrong with this one, so back the f*ck off!!!!!

Love,
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 11:28:29 AM by Moffie65 »
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2007, 11:56:04 AM »
a couple of years ago Congress passed a Campaign Finance bill. The unintended consequences of this attempt by McCain to make people forget he was the only republican congressman indicted in the SL scandal? Secretive groups like the swiftboats and moveone.org gained control of the elections with their huge private funds. Individuals and your normal interest groups are forbidden speaking out in the last 30 days before an election. What was the purpose of this bill? To make people feel good. What was the result? More money than ever was spent on elections and those who are able to speak and contribute has been limited.
Unintended Consequences.
 If there are laws already in place why do we add on the hate crime? To make certain people feel good, and so the lawyers will make a fortune. Still no one has answered who will determine that there is hate in the criminals mind or how it will be determined. Are there laws in place if one person assaults another? Yes. Why add on a hate crime? Are some crimes against certain people more heinous than others? Thats what you are saying with a law like this. The guy that kills a straight person just for the fuck of it gets less penalty than the guy who kills a gay because he hates gays. HUH????
Is this an attempt to make hatred illegal? Its a free country, I can hate whoever I want, but when I act on that hatred with some illegal act, I will be penalized.
This could also be called the Lawyer and Mental Physician as witnesses full employment and get rich act.

Offline Basquo

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2007, 12:22:30 PM »
Quote
The guy that kills a straight person just for the fuck of it gets less penalty than the guy who kills a gay because he hates gays. HUH?
Is this an attempt to make hatred illegal? Its a free country, I can hate whoever I want, but when I act on that hatred with some illegal act, I will be penalized.

Yes.  Exactly.  And what others wrote above, can you imagine going to school and being called a fag for 12 FUCKING YEARS? Well I can! Even after that it didn't stop, and hasn't. It's hatred, man, and if this bill makes just one fucking retarded redneck think twice about beating someone up just because they're black or gay, it will be worth whatever knots your knickers are in.

Offline Moffie65

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2007, 12:47:14 PM »
Jake,
I am sorry for you.  You are a very sad person, that you could even "suggest" that our reality is only fantasy.  I will not stoop to answer your questions!  You remind me of the Marine I once f*ucked, who in the moment of passion said simply "Don't kiss me, I'm not QUEER!!!!


In Awe.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2007, 12:56:30 PM »
Basqo. I really empathize with you. I was bullied as a youngster as were most people,and called names till I stood up to the fuckers and popped them. I was called fag and queer. So What!!!!  Thats fucking life and I have to find a way to get beyond that, we all do. I find the best way to do it is to make so much fucking money I can hire one of those people to be my driver or garbage man.(just kidding but it sure would be fun)   Everyone has been called something that caused them great pain and embarrassment.
Making a law that says people cant hate will not stop hate, only time will stop hate. Lots of time. Its been that  way with every group in every society.
I am not a Christian Nazi, I do not hate gays, I do not hate any race, I just dont think this law makes any sense and will cause much more harm than any good it may do.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2007, 01:07:50 PM »
You empathize with no one and your lack of understanding is pathetic. No amount of money you make will change that. If you did have any empathy you would not have posted in the first place knowing your audience.

Once again, look Matthew Shepard's mother in the eye and tell her, "so what that's fucking life."

I can't imagine what would come out of your mouth if you weren't HIV poz.

p.s. you don't hate gays you just hate people thinking you are gay.

Offline mjmel

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2007, 01:17:14 PM »
Lets see, what comes to mind is that a Hate Crime Bill may carry with it mandatory sentences so that some jerk of a lawyer can't plea bargin in behalf of a lighter sentence for his convicted client.

You perceive it as it's special treatment because as a straight man you haven't felt what almost all gays have felt at one point in their life. A disgust and rage that their own kind can be abused, beaten, and murdered with little effort for equal justice.........

Oh, F**K IT!......you know what? I'm not even going to finish this as I intended. I don't share in Moffies anger/outrage because I honestly don't believe you don't understand the point of this bill. You have shown too much intelligence in past issues not to grasp this.

Me thinks you like ruffling feathers.
xxx,
Mike

 

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2007, 01:44:04 PM »
I have been called a queer. I have been beaten for it. Big Fucking Deal. Its part of my life and it made me the person I am today.  Should the people who tortured me when I was young have been put in prison or jailed? Its something they have on their conscious today, something they have to live with if they have a conscious. Living with that is much more painful than any short stint in jail. I probably would have had my ass kicked for some other reason if it wasnt that. Are we gonna make everything every loser thinks or moron does illegal?
A law like this will make the groups protected or who use it more isolated from other groups.  If we need the government to force us to love one another rather than letting time work its magic, it will be a fucking disaster.

Offline libvet

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2007, 07:59:36 PM »
I have been called a queer. I have been beaten for it. Big Fucking Deal. Its part of my life and it made me the person I am today.  Should the people who tortured me when I was young have been put in prison or jailed? Its something they have on their conscious today, something they have to live with if they have a conscious. Living with that is much more painful than any short stint in jail. I probably would have had my ass kicked for some other reason if it wasnt that. Are we gonna make everything every loser thinks or moron does illegal?
A law like this will make the groups protected or who use it more isolated from other groups.  If we need the government to force us to love one another rather than letting time work its magic, it will be a fucking disaster.


And what protected group would that be?

Sexual orientation?  Do you have one?  If so, and someone singles you out for violence based on your sexual orientation, you can rest assured, they can be punished under this law.


Now, of course, that isn't very common, but is it the fault of gays that they are targeted for violence based on sexual orientation by a considerable factor more than that heterosexuals are?

And that's really the bottom line in this....the opponents of hate crime laws don't seem to understand that they are equally protected under this law, they just usually don't have to deal with being targeted for violence for their particular trait.

So if the law reads that is it is a crime to target an individual for a violent act based on "race, religion, or sexual orientation" what it opponents really object to is that they read that as meaning "blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, Jews, and homosexuals", because they know deep down inside that in this country it is pretty rare for someone to be beaten within an inch of his life or killed for being a white Christian heterosexual.

In effect, they feel this is "unfair" because they haven't a fucking clue what it feels like to be singled out for violence by someone for an inherent trait or being the wrong religion.

Offline Miss Philicia

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"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline milker

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2007, 03:23:58 PM »
We can't get a bill about gay love, and we can't get a bill for gay hate? We can't be loved nor hated, we just have to hide.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2007, 03:27:02 PM »
Pat Robertson = Malcolm X !!!
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline jack

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2007, 05:30:42 PM »
libvet, what are you talking about? Do you remember 911? I guess that was hate crime. Adding more laws and differentiating people based upon religion,race,or sexual orientation is idiotic. We have enough problems here in US and now we are gonna add one more layer of laws to enrich the lawyers and fill the Democratic coffers.
You want special laws and I guess if you get them its cool. I guess if I am walking down the street and some dude or dudes jump me and rob me and beat the shit out of me for no particular reason should not be penalized as much as someone who jumps a gay person or anyone of any group who this person hates. ITS INSANITY!!!!

What is a hate crime? Does someone have to prove the hate? Or is a hate crime any crime against gays or constituents or special interest groups who support Democrats?  If a moslem attacks a christian, is that a hate crime? Or is it just a regular crime? What if a christian attacks a moslem?
By your convoluted logic any crime against any minority is a hate crime. Why do libs think there is so much hate? The only hate I see on a regular basis, is liberal hate for W, republicans,and anyone who wants to defend the country or lower taxes. I really cant think of anyone I hate,but I reserve the right to hate whoever the fuck I want at least as much as you hate America,Bush,conservatives,freedom,and low taxes.

Its all politics, the dems know Bush and anyone who supports the first amendment cant pass a goofy law like this. They are just playing you for suckers like they do every year.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2007, 05:36:43 PM »
Jack, I hope you watched my Colbert Report link.  It's all about you baby.
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline libvet

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Re: 237-180 Hate Crime bill passes US House
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2007, 08:52:08 PM »
l
What is a hate crime? Does someone have to prove the hate? Or is a hate crime any crime against gays or constituents or special interest groups who support Democrats?  If a moslem attacks a christian, is that a hate crime? Or is it just a regular crime? What if a christian attacks a moslem?


Don't spew talking points at me.

A hate crime is a crime where a person or group of people are targeted for violence or criminal harassment based solely on their belonging to a specific group.

Despite your right wing talking points, not every crime that involves someone with a race, religion, country of origin, sexual orientation or gender is a hate crime.

For example: If a person decides to rob a store where the employee happens to be Muslim, it is not necessarily a hate crime.

If a white guy kills a black guy, it is not necessarily a hate crime.

If a bunch of athiests decide to get together and go beat up some Christians for being Christian, it would be a hate crime.

If a bunch of gay guys hang out near Hooters waiting for some drunk straight guy to wander out to beat him up for being straight, it is a hate crime.

And yes, you do have to prove motive in order for hate crime charges to stick. (Imagine having to prove mens rea AND motive in criminal proceedings. How terrible...NOT!)

You aren't stupid, so why pretend you cannot fathom the difference between a crime of opportunity, a crime of passion, a crime of negligence, etc.

You know damned well the difference between a crime motivated by personal grievance (ie, the next door neighbor keeps letting his dog shit on my lawn and I went over and punched him for it) and a crime motived by sheer bias or hatred of a perceived trait (that guy next door is straight, so I went over and beat him up for being straight).

And don't presume to lecture me about defending the country or freedom....I already served my country in the military and so I don't feel any need to prove my credentials on either.

And this particular fag did so while a bunch of bigoted republicans were saying I was unfit to serve in the military because I happen to like cock.  When it comes to freedom, republicans are all for it as long as you fit the profile they feel is "worthy" of freedom, otherwise they will do everything in their power to turn you into a second class citizen. 

Just watch if a vote on repealing "Don't ask, don't tell" comes up and see the difference in the votes.

And if you really want to talk about freedom and diversity, you might want to clean your own house and wonder what your party has done that made it the party of little diversity at all.

Just look to the 109th congress as a guidebook and maybe you'll wonder why many people don't trust the republicans when it comes to issues of prejudice and equality for all:

You know why? Just look at the demographics of Congress:

There were 43 African-Americans serving in Congress....ALL were DEMOCRATS!

There were 26 Hispanics serving in Congress...20 of them were DEMOCRATS!

There were 6 people of Asian/Pacific Island descent serving in Congress....5 were DEMOCRATS!

There were 82 women serving in Congress....54 were DEMOCRATS!

There were 154 Catholics serving in Congress...87 were DEMOCRATS!

There were 37 Jewish people serving in Congress...33 were DEMOCRATS!

Or the 110th congress which boast the first female Speaker of the House, the first Muslim congressman, the first two Buddhists serving in congress, an openly gay member of congress.

And you want to lecture democrats and liberals about hate when the democratic party looks more like America while the republican party looks like an exclusive country club circa 1950?  One wonders why the republican party that claims to be so representative of America has such a hard time attracting the diversity of talents spread out through the entire spectrum of our demographic makeup as a country?

You may want to cogitate and masticate on that sometime.

As far as hate is concerned, you are free to hate to your heart's content, but if your hate leads you to target people for violence then you cross the line where your motive for violence becomes a factor and should be considered.

It's very much like the old saying: Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. 

Given it's track record in the last few decades, I'm not sure that when it comes to matters of prejudice and bias that I really want to be taking advice from the party that seems to have such difficulty attracting people that truly represent the diversity of America.









 


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