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Author Topic: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!  (Read 7909 times)

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Offline Dachshund

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2007, 11:49:20 AM »
....a perfect second class citizen solution.

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2007, 11:59:49 AM »
exactly. that was my point, I think most who are for gay marriage are in the fight as a matter of equality not finances. Finances are definitely part of it, but not what really gets you pissed off enough to shout from the rooftops.
The argument that it would threaten male/female marriage is rather silly, unless you think everyone is homosexual but just chooses hetero for the financial benefits. Its really the dumbest fucking argument I have heard, but I guess its better than the truth, which is the Christian Nazis think homosexuality is an abomination and should not be encouraged,accepted,or part of our society.

Offline mjmel

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2007, 01:08:41 PM »
Jake wrote: "Rudy is the best Republican candidate and unfortunately he has to kneel to the Christian Nazis to keep them on board in the primaries..."

Honestly, Jake, you just made "ca ca" of your favored candidate. When a man makes an about face on issues he formerly supported because it potentially gets him the Christian backing that he thinks he desperately needs then he stands untrustworthy.
The part that states "he has to kneel to..."  are the words I choked on. Ridiculous.
It's political strategy and he chooses his course of actions/retractions.

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2007, 01:27:52 PM »
Name me one political candidate that hasnt done this in primaries. They all do it to romance their base. Yeah, it sucks, but its reality. Every single person running for president is doing it. Hillary changes her position on the war daily depending on who she is talking to. Her husband did the same thing. I will never forget billy coming to Houston when he was president and saying to a group of Democrats that he had screwed up by raising taxes so much. The next day in front of another group in another state he said he never said such a thing, and later that day he said he did say it but was caused by lack of sleep. Bush does it. Reagan did it. CArter did it. Obama does it.
The fucking media never takes any of them to task for it. Look at the answers to the questions in the last "debate".  A joke, just like all the debates.
I am just saying my personal preference for Reps is Rudy and someone conservative from the west, that is not code for Christian Nazi. If the Reps picked someone like McCain I would vote for Dems only if Richardson was going for President. He is the only Democrat who appears not to be a frothing at the mouth socialist,but like I said most of them are putting on this act for the democrat base and like Clinton probably wont do much in that direction once elected.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2007, 01:34:59 PM »
Bereft of all logic...as you usually are...I must remind you that the religious right views you just like they do us. Support right-wing Christian appeaser candidates all you like, but when they come for us they will come for you...no matter how loud you scream, "but I'm straight and married!"

Offline jimw

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2007, 01:41:15 PM »
The argument that it would threaten male/female marriage is rather silly, unless you think everyone is homosexual but just chooses hetero for the financial benefits.

I sure have had sex with a lot of married men!  The gay bookstores and baths here in NYC are full of them.  Not to mention the sauna's at the gym.  

But for 9/11 Rudy would have gone down as one of the worst mayors in NY - he used strong arm tactics, gave the police free reign to do what ever they wanted (remember Abner Loumi (sp?).

As far as second class citizens, yes, we are treated and considered second class citizens - and marriage one of the ways that we are kept in a different, second, class.  The same arguments about allowing gays the right to marry are being made by the same people who want to prevent women the right to have an abortion.  

Frankly, with HIV added to the list I sometimes feel like a third class citizen - but thats another thread!

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2007, 01:57:34 PM »
I used to hear that line about it threatening male/female marriage and think, well that sounds good, but once you spend one minute to think about it, the basis for that argument would have to be that all men are really homosexuals and only choose hetero because of the financial benefits or so they can be involved in the institution of marriage. Its absurd! But if gay marriage was law, it would mean homosexuality is an accepted way of life, and the Christian Nazis will go the grave on that one. Sad but true.
These are the same Nazis who wont let me gamble with my own money on my computer and force me to do illegal acts with many of close italian mafioso type friends.
dAchsund, I really dont think anyone is coming to get anyone, except for the IRS. Always keep a few thous on hand to grease those bastards at the local tit bar.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2007, 02:11:08 PM »
You underestimate the religious right at your own peril...like radical Islam their theocracy would not include you...why do you think your buddies kneel at the altar of Dobson, Falwell, Robertson and until he got caught with his hands in a hustler's pants Ted Haggard? Why do you think Robertson's law school provides the lawyers for this regime? Your candidates kneel before these fascists because they know that fascists control the Republican party and it doesn't bother them one bit.

p.s here's a nice example:


http://americablog.blogspot.com/2007/04/religious-right-uses-victims-of-va-tech.html
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 02:53:12 PM by Dachshund »

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2007, 02:52:19 PM »
i know this will piss you off, but here goes, I dont think that article is brilliant, of course I dont think there should be hate crimes. When are we gonna stop trying to figure out why someone committed a crime and just use the laws on the books. Oh I know why, cause some crimes are ok if we feel sorry for the criminal or if he his parents abused him,but if hate is involved then he should be guilty of some far greater crime? WTF???  If someone murders a gay person or a non gay person, who cares, prosecute the fucker under the laws we have. Who is the judge of whether hate is involved?
This is just another assault on the first amendment like John McCains idiot finance bill that trashed freedom of speech for all but the very wealthy and very connected.
You do not have to convince me of the insaneness of the Christian Nazis, just like you dont have convince me of moron Warmer Nazis. They both want control. I fear the WArmers now more than I have ever feared the Christian Nazis. And what about the Atheist Nazis?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2007, 03:05:53 PM »
Of course you miss the point of the article completely and why I am not surprised. Atheistic Nazis...that has got to be one of the funniest things I have ever heard of in all my life...fascism one-oh-one...you must at least pretend to believe in god so pudding heads will believe you and follow blindly. Fascists come riding into town with a sword in one hand and a bible in the other.

Nazi atheists...you're a riot!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 03:11:20 PM by Dachshund »

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2007, 04:11:04 PM »
Oh Jakey,

I hate to be the one to do this to you but:


"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

The effect of Godwin's Law (or the 4th Law of Teh Intahwebs) is simple yet profound. You lose the debate. No matter what your arguments might be or how eloquently you put them, you lose.

Sorry babe, but Teh Law is Teh Law.

MtD

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2007, 05:33:26 PM »
Matty, I have no idea what you are talking about. I use the term Nazi to describe many people. My kids soccer coaches were soccer nazis. I went to a very religious college,where I often referred to those in charge as Nazis,and of course they threw me out of that college till my father bribed the Dean to get me back in.
If you read the great "road to serfdom" by Hayek, he makes the case that socialism always leads to something akin to the Nazis. After so much is promised by politicos to  buy votes and it is never delivered(germany pre ww2) only a Nazi type of government can quell the masses or something like that.
I always prefer the way Johny Weismuller used to pronounce it as Tarzan, Nazzzzi.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2007, 07:38:15 PM »
n00b
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline milker

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2007, 07:43:22 PM »
Sigh Jack.. after 1047 posts and certainly many others on other sites you have never heard of the Godwin law?

Here is a little help for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
There is also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll that could be of interest for you.

 :-*

Milker.
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Offline Matty the Damned

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  • Ninja Please
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2007, 01:44:56 AM »
Matty, I have no idea what you are talking about. I use the term Nazi to describe many people. My kids soccer coaches were soccer nazis. I went to a very religious college,where I often referred to those in charge as Nazis,and of course they threw me out of that college till my father bribed the Dean to get me back in.
If you read the great "road to serfdom" by Hayek, he makes the case that socialism always leads to something akin to the Nazis. After so much is promised by politicos to  buy votes and it is never delivered(germany pre ww2) only a Nazi type of government can quell the masses or something like that.
I always prefer the way Johny Weismuller used to pronounce it as Tarzan, Nazzzzi.


Doesn't matter Jakey, ignorance of Teh Law is no defence. You Godwinned and thus lost the debate. There can be no more useful dialogue in this thread. Not that there ever was.

MtD

Offline mjmel

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  • Posts: 2,069
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2007, 03:29:15 PM »
Name me one political candidate that hasn't done this in primaries. They all do it to romance their base. Yeah, it sucks, but its reality. Every single person running for president is doing it. Hillary changes her position on the war daily depending on who she is talking to. Her husband did the same thing. I will never forget billy coming to Houston when he was president and saying to a group of Democrats that he had screwed up by raising taxes so much. The next day in front of another group in another state he said he never said such a thing, and later that day he said he did say it but was caused by lack of sleep. Bush does it. Reagan did it. Carter did it. Obama does it.
The fucking media never takes any of them to task for it. Look at the answers to the questions in the last "debate".  A joke, just like all the debates.
I am just saying my personal preference for Reps is Rudy and someone conservative from the west, that is not code for Christian Nazi. If the Reps picked someone like McCain I would vote for Dems only if Richardson was going for President. He is the only Democrat who appears not to be a frothing at the mouth socialist,but like I said most of them are putting on this act for the democrat base and like Clinton probably wont do much in that direction once elected.



Jake, I agree with you 99% on above quoted post. Still, " NO"on Rudy.  Just think you deserve credit when it's due you.
xxx,
Mike

AS AN ASIDE TO ALL READERS: By highlighting the quoted material and pressing the Font Size button 3 times one gets easy-to-read quoted  text.

Offline ConnorMacleod

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  • Posts: 15
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2007, 01:25:58 AM »
I sure have had sex with a lot of married men!  The gay bookstores and baths here in NYC are full of them.  Not to mention the sauna\'s at the gym. 

But for 9/11 Rudy would have gone down as one of the worst mayors in NY - he used strong arm tactics, gave the police free reign to do what ever they wanted (remember Abner Loumi (sp?).

As far as second class citizens, yes, we are treated and considered second class citizens - and marriage one of the ways that we are kept in a different, second, class.  The same arguments about allowing gays the right to marry are being made by the same people who want to prevent women the right to have an abortion. 

Frankly, with HIV added to the list I sometimes feel like a third class citizen - but thats another thread!

First of all, abortion is a form of murder.

Second, you act like you were being marched off to the gas chambers or something, you still have every right that a heterosexual person does, why is marriage such an issue?

Most marriages between straight people fall apart, so what makes you think that with gay men (and yes I am one) it would be any different? I haven\'t met a gay man that could keep it in his pants for 5 seconds.

Offline libvet

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  • Posts: 327
Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2007, 08:35:21 PM »
i know this will piss you off, but here goes, I dont think that article is brilliant, of course I dont think there should be hate crimes. When are we gonna stop trying to figure out why someone committed a crime and just use the laws on the books. Oh I know why, cause some crimes are ok if we feel sorry for the criminal or if he his parents abused him,but if hate is involved then he should be guilty of some far greater crime? WTF???  If someone murders a gay person or a non gay person, who cares, prosecute the fucker under the laws we have. Who is the judge of whether hate is involved?
This is just another assault on the first amendment like John McCains idiot finance bill that trashed freedom of speech for all but the very wealthy and very connected.
You do not have to convince me of the insaneness of the Christian Nazis, just like you dont have convince me of moron Warmer Nazis. They both want control. I fear the WArmers now more than I have ever feared the Christian Nazis. And what about the Atheist Nazis?

This talking point is a red herring.  Let's be honest, people are against hate crime laws because they really see them as somehow "exalting" people of races, gender, sexual orientations, religions and cultures that are routinely looked down upon by society and targeted by some as objects for violence.

But leaving motive for being against hate crime laws aside for a moment, let's talk about....MOTIVE.

Motive is really what hate crimes laws are about.  It's a distinction made on the reasons an act was committed.  Leaving aside hate crime laws, the statutes are already crammed to the rafters with laws and rules concerning MOTIVE.  And punishment is handed down based on MOTIVE of the crime committed.

For example:

1) A person walks in on his wife in bed with some other guy, goes off the deep end goes into the garage, gets his gun and kills both of them.
2) A person takes out an insurance policy on his wife and one night a few months later, takes her out somewhere and kills her.

Is there a difference in these two crimes?  In both cases a person intentionally kills another.   In both cases, we have a murder.

Why should a person get a heavier sentence for a premeditated act of murder than a person who snapped in a moment of emotional distress?  Motive.

Hate crime laws are not about anything that doesn't already exist in the laws of most first world countries.  We already deal with aggravating factors in the body of law.  Why should hate crimes NOT be an aggravating factor?

And one has to ask oneself, is there really a difference between toilet papering someone's house as an ill thought out prank and painting a swastika on a synagogue door?

On the surface, they are really both acts of vandalism. 

But are they really the same crime?  I don't think they are.  One is a crime that at best is meant to annoy someone or inconvenience them at worst, while the other is clearly an act that is meant terrorize an entire community.

Should the punishment be the same?  I don't think so. 

If we just treat all crimes as equal based on the deed itself and not consider any aggravating or mitigating factors, then we are setting ourselves up for a serious miscarriage of justice.



Should the punishment be the same?

Offline JacobKell

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2007, 08:52:43 PM »
This talking point is a red herring.  Let's be honest, people are against hate crime laws because they really see them as somehow "exalting" people of races, gender, sexual orientations, religions and cultures that are routinely looked down upon by society and targeted by some as objects for violence.

But leaving motive for being against hate crime laws aside for a moment, let's talk about....MOTIVE.

Motive is really what hate crimes laws are about.  It's a distinction made on the reasons an act was committed.  Leaving aside hate crime laws, the statutes are already crammed to the rafters with laws and rules concerning MOTIVE.  And punishment is handed down based on MOTIVE of the crime committed.

For example:

1) A person walks in on his wife in bed with some other guy, goes off the deep end goes into the garage, gets his gun and kills both of them.
2) A person takes out an insurance policy on his wife and one night a few months later, takes her out somewhere and kills her.

Is there a difference in these two crimes?  In both cases a person intentionally kills another.   In both cases, we have a murder.

Why should a person get a heavier sentence for a premeditated act of murder than a person who snapped in a moment of emotional distress?  Motive.

Hate crime laws are not about anything that doesn't already exist in the laws of most first world countries.  We already deal with aggravating factors in the body of law.  Why should hate crimes NOT be an aggravating factor?

And one has to ask oneself, is there really a difference between toilet papering someone's house as an ill thought out prank and painting a swastika on a synagogue door?

On the surface, they are really both acts of vandalism. 

But are they really the same crime?  I don't think they are.  One is a crime that at best is meant to annoy someone or inconvenience them at worst, while the other is clearly an act that is meant terrorize an entire community.

Should the punishment be the same?  I don't think so. 

If we just treat all crimes as equal based on the deed itself and not consider any aggravating or mitigating factors, then we are setting ourselves up for a serious miscarriage of justice.



Should the punishment be the same?

First of all, I invoke Godwin's Law.

Second of all, hate crimes, which usually include murder, various acts of violence, and/or vandalism are already illegal.

If someone murdered you because you were gay, they would be tried for the crime of murder, what more do you want the legal system to do? Give the guy two death sentences/two lifetime inprisonments because you were gay?

How does being gay make you a special victim? What if instead of killing you, he went to rob a bank and shot a teller? Did the teller do something to make him/her less of a victim?

I'm interested in your input on this.

Offline libvet

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Re: Giuliani: Will Flip Flop for Food!
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2007, 09:37:42 PM »
First of all, I invoke Godwin's Law.

Second of all, hate crimes, which usually include murder, various acts of violence, and/or vandalism are already illegal.

If someone murdered you because you were gay, they would be tried for the crime of murder, what more do you want the legal system to do? Give the guy two death sentences/two lifetime inprisonments because you were gay?

How does being gay make you a special victim? What if instead of killing you, he went to rob a bank and shot a teller? Did the teller do something to make him/her less of a victim?

I'm interested in your input on this.

Invoke to your heart's content.  Vandalizing and terrorizing Jewish people with such symbolism in that manner is not at all unheard of.

What about first, second, and third degree murder or manslaughter?

Someone died, someone killed. 

Does intent or motive matter?  Apparently our body of law has decided for many decades that punishment and conviction of a particular crime IS dependent on a number of factors regardless of the act itself being superficially the same.

Should there be a distinction?  You can agree or disagree with that based on your own opinion, but I don't really think a landlord who didn't take care of a fire hazard and the end result was a person dying is the same thing as someone actively seeking to kill someone.  Nor do I think a man who kills his wife for insurance money is the same thing as a man who kills his wife who is suffering from terminal cancer to spare her any more pain are the exact same crime.   

Motive and intent DOES matter.  It has always mattered.   Should a guy who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family suffer the same fate as a person who steals a television set or a car for personal pleasure?

Hate crimes are not really about the victim as much as they are about the motive and intent of a criminal.  And there seems to be a common misunderstanding about hate crime laws to begin with that somehow any criminal act against someone gay or black or Jewish is a hate crime, which is ludicrous on the surface because hate crime laws are pretty neutral....they don't say black, they say "race", they don't say "homosexual", they say "sexual orientation", they don't say "Jewish",  they say "religion". That would make every single criminal action a hate crime considering EVERYONE has a sexual orientation if the only qualification of charging someone with a hate crime was that a victim had to belong to a race, gender, culture, religion, or sexual orientation.

Can you honestly tell me that there is no inherent difference between a straight guy and gay guy getting into an argument over something silly such as the gay guy bumped into him and the guy hauled off and punched him and a guy hanging out near a gay bar waiting for a gay man to come out of the bar so he can beat the living shit out of him for being gay?

They are both assault on the surface.  Are there any real differences in the crime other than that?   I think there are.   I think that if a group of straight guys hang out near a gay bar waiting to beat the shit out of someone for being gay or being perceived as gay or a bunch of gay guys waiting outside Hooters to beat up some straight guy for being straight have displayed aggravating factors that should be considered in the adjudication and punishment of the crime.

 


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