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Author Topic: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...  (Read 18132 times)

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Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2007, 07:48:13 PM »
What about our neighbors to the north?

They have guns in Canada.  Lots of them.  22% of Canadians own a gun.

But their level of gun violence is much lower than ours, even taking population difference into consideration.

They do have greater controls on ammunition sales and have registration laws... but aren't shooting each other all the time... but even before the registry was put in place, Canada's low crime rate was the stuff of which dreams were made.



CRIME:  Although criminal activity in Canada is more common in urban areas, overall crime levels are comparable to the United States and violent crimes such as murder, armed robbery, and rape can occur throughout the country.  Visitors to large cities should be aware that parked cars are regularly targeted for opportunistic smash-and-grab thefts, and they are cautioned to avoid leaving any possessions unattended in a vehicle, even in the trunk.  Due to the high incidence of such crimes, motorists in Montreal and some other jurisdictions can be fined for leaving their car doors unlocked or for leaving valuables in view.  Auto theft in Montreal, including theft of motor homes and recreational vehicles, may occur in patrolled and overtly secure parking lots and decks.  While Canadian gun control laws are much more strict than those of the U.S., certain large urban areas have seen an upsurge in gun-related violence.

from http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_KwHF9VgGpgJ:travel.state.gov/travel/canada.html+crime+level+in+canada+gun+control&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us&client=firefox-a

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 07:54:38 PM by egello »
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
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10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2007, 07:52:01 PM »
What about our neighbors to the north?

They have guns in Canada.  Lots of them.  22% of Canadians own a gun.

But their level of gun violence is much lower than ours, even taking population difference into consideration.

They do have greater controls on ammunition sales and have registration laws... but aren't shooting each other all the time... but even before the registry was put in place, Canada's low crime rate was the stuff of which dreams were made.

There are a lot of variables I'm sure.  Are they easy to conceal semi-automatics with multiple rounds of ammo?  I'm sorry, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for these types of guns to be allowed for purchase.  None.

I can't even believe that this argument exists. 
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2007, 07:53:47 PM »
There are a lot of variables I'm sure.  Are they easy to conceal semi-automatics with multiple rounds of ammo?  I'm sorry, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for these types of guns to be allowed for purchase.  None.

I can't even believe that this argument exists. 

I'm definitely not argung that point with you... why anyone needs to conceal a semi-automatic is beyond me, and I think they should be illegal.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how controlling you want gun control to be.
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Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2007, 07:57:00 PM »
for me, its complete ban, and even make it EXTREMELY difficult for hunters to get them and enforce strict law against gun owning criminals. however, this day will never come because guess what,,, America makes killing out of selling guns
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline izprince1984

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2007, 08:07:35 PM »
As far as relaxing gun control goes, some people think more people with guns would discourage stuff like this, they're wrong, the shooter was already suicidal, so why would he be afraid that someone there may be armed?

In reality, there would just be even MORE trigger happy idiots running around taking pot shots.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2007, 08:15:18 PM »
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how controlling you want gun control to be.

How can you misunderstand something I have not even stated?
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2007, 08:18:28 PM »
How can you misunderstand something I have not even stated?

My head hurts.

Edited to add:  I'm psychic.  Yes... psychic.
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2007, 08:19:00 PM »
And do you (everyone) think that showing those videos on TV is not criminal? How many teens will actually relate to what he's saying ??? "you make me feel like shit, you're gonna pay for it, i'm nothing for society etc.." Unfortunately it's too late. Since when authorities disclose suicidal notes too? Do those broadcasters have ANY idea of what they could start now  ??? ???

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
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jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
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Offline Basquo

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2007, 08:25:09 PM »
Guns should be used for saving lives, not taking them :'(

That said, it's on my to-do list to get a license and buy a handgun.

Everybody in Texas thinks I'm queer, since I don't have a gun rack on the back window of my vehicle.

I'll probably pack it in a crafting box, maybe one with silk greenery scraps, and forget about it.  Statisically, I won't need it.

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2007, 08:25:24 PM »
And do you (everyone) think that showing those videos on TV is not criminal? How many teens will actually relate to what he's saying ??? "you make me feel like shit, you're gonna pay for it, i'm nothing for society etc.." Unfortunately it's too late. Since when authorities disclose suicidal notes too? Do those broadcasters have ANY idea of what they could start now  ??? ???

Milker.

Well, I don't think it sends a particularly good message... one that states, "if you shoot a whole bunch of people and go out in a blaze of glory, you'll be famous."  Yes.

Although, that argument was made after Columbine, and it didn't seem to provoke a rash of copycat shootings... but that might have been because of the increased attention paid to little teenage time bombs at the time.  People who are insane are gonna do shit like this regardless of how much attention is given to a person who commits these acts.

But I still don't like the inherent message or what it says about our culture when people like this are showered with the level of attention he's been getting. 

Personally, I believe that obsessive interest in the pathological is in and of itself pathological... but what do I know?
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Offline izprince1984

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2007, 08:30:54 PM »
Guns should be used for saving lives, not taking them :'(

The only real purpose of a gun is to kill other people or animals.

The logical way to save lives with guns is to quit making them and destroy every gun in existence.
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2007, 08:44:59 PM »
An FBI profiler on NBC just said that. That the networks should have given the facts, not show the pictures with the guns or the videos, as it energizes potential killers. Apparently there is a flaw in the background check.. if he had so many police records and had a state report, then how the f*** did he pass the background checks!

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2007, 08:48:05 PM »
An FBI profiler on NBC just said that. That the networks should have given the facts, not show the pictures with the guns or the videos, as it energizes potential killers. Apparently there is a flaw in the background check.. if he had so many police records and had a state report, then how the f*** did he pass the background checks!

Milker.

If he bought that gun in the area where Virginia Tech is... well... there are many, many unflattering jokes and statements regarding the general intellectual prowess of most residents of that part of the state.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline izprince1984

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2007, 08:50:44 PM »
If he bought that gun in the area where Virginia Tech is... well... there are many, many unflattering jokes and statements regarding the general intellectual prowess of most residents of that part of the state.

I've been to that area of Virginia, I can vouch for that, definitely not the sharpest tools in the shed, and watch your speedometer!!!!!!! Cause Virginia is like the Speeding Ticket Avengers, esp if you have out of state tags.
ryan@ryan-desktop:~$ apt-get moo
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2007, 08:52:57 PM »
If he bought that gun in the area where Virginia Tech is... well... there are many, many unflattering jokes and statements regarding the general intellectual prowess of most residents of that part of the state.
<hijack><sarcasm>I know I lived in NOVA state where the intelligent people live.</sarcasm></hijack>

Well I hope it's just an "incident" as they say and that schools and enforcement will work better together.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2007, 08:54:27 PM »

Well I hope it's just an "incident" as they say and that schools and enforcement will work better together.

Dare to dream.
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Offline Basquo

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2007, 08:55:45 PM »
The only real purpose of a gun is to kill other people or animals.

The logical way to save lives with guns is to quit making them and destroy every gun in existence.

I should amend my statement to say that I'm referring to handguns for personal possession. I'm not including rifles and assault weopons that have different roles (ideally) on this planet.

Offline northernguy

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2007, 09:55:46 PM »
Americans and their gun-love.  I will never understand it. 

We were aghast at the watercooler over a phrase in the newspaper reports: "many of the students had guns, but were required to check them in with campus security".  WTF, why would many students have guns?
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2007, 10:49:07 PM »
Americans and their gun-love.  I will never understand it. 


I'm a resident alien, and I have been living in the US of A since 1998. After all those years living in the US of A I've had to explain to my friends back in Europe what it is about gun ownership in the US. I came with a European mind not understanding at all, then during my life in the US learned about the history of gun ownership, talked to many people about it (mostly in Texas!), and started to understand the culture behind it.

The constitution amendment will be discussed for ever by pros and cons about the right to bear arms. The result is that we have country where 99.99% of the people who own guns will never use them unless they are threaten and the rest will be allowed to get guns to commit "legal" crimes like we've seen at VT. Other crimes, which are 90% of the crimes, have been done using "unlawful" guns.

I'm not a gun owner, but my mother got a gun because she felt threaten. This was in France, she was allowed to get one, very lawfully, to protect herself. This gun would definitely kill people. So stop saying that the US is the only country that allows people to get guns that can kill people.

Why am I not a gun owner? Because I would be unable to take life. I'd rather get killed than kill someone. But this is just me.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline woodshere

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2007, 11:02:10 PM »
Look at it this way.  If one of the students that got killed had a gun. We certainly wouldn't have had 30 more students killed. We'd have had one or two and a dead idiot that thought it's OK to start shooting people.

This line of thinking I just cannot understand.  Allowing more people to have guns would be better.  If this person had never been able to purchase a gun then we wouldn't have had the problem.  Now of course some will say that he could get it off the black market, well let's attack the black market problem and get them off the street.  One has to jump through more hoops to get a bulding permit or business license, then to purchase a gun.  Makes no sense to me.

Woods
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2007, 11:09:54 PM »
I'm not a gun owner, but my mother got a gun because she felt threaten. This was in France, she was allowed to get one, very lawfully, to protect herself. This gun would definitely kill people. So stop saying that the US is the only country that allows people to get guns that can kill people.

I somehow doubt  France allows the purchase of semi-automatic weapons.  It's quite notable that in the 2005 riots there only one gun incident occurred.

Could you go into more details by comparing and contrasting the gun policies between France and the US?

Anyway, I'm sure northernguy is aware that one can obtain a gun in Canada, it's simply more restrictive.  Instead you chose to imply he was saying something I'm quite sure he wasn't saying.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 11:12:09 PM by philly267 »
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2007, 11:12:14 PM »
Americans and their gun-love.  I will never understand it. 

We were aghast at the watercooler over a phrase in the newspaper reports: "many of the students had guns, but were required to check them in with campus security".  WTF, why would many students have guns?

I don't love my gun.  In fact, I hate having to have it... but once our door was kicked in, and I realized that my roommate and I were defenseless against someone coming in and chopping us up... I got one.

This was also on the heels of a highly publicized murder of an entire family (including two girls of seven and four) in Richmond whose throats were slit in the basement of their house.  We decided that we'd be damned if we went down without a fight.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2007, 11:14:43 PM »
I don't love my gun.  In fact, I hate having to have it... but once our door was kicked in, and I realized that my roommate and I were defenseless against someone coming in and chopping us up... I got one.

This was also on the heels of a highly publicized murder of an entire family (including two girls of seven and four) in Richmond whose throats were slit in the basement of their house.  We decided that we'd be damned if we went down without a fight.

Yet if the US had more gun restrictions (and had this 50 years ago) the fear you feel about someone coming in with a gun would be considerably less, and most likely you'd not have bought a gun.

Funny how that works.
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2007, 11:17:36 PM »
I somehow doubt  France allows the purchase of semi-automatic weapons.  It's quite notable that in the 2005 riots there only one gun incident occurred.

Could you go into more details by comparing and contrasting the gun policies between France and the US?

Anyway, I'm sure northernguy is aware that one can obtain a gun in Canada, it's simply more restrictive.  Instead you chose to imply he was saying something I'm quite sure he wasn't saying.

I don't know what she had to go through to get the gun. I will research. The gun was a very small gun but still able to kill people. It was definitely not a semi-automatic weapon. I will do research and come back to you. But she got the gun. I saw it, touched it, and got scared about it.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjasô

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2007, 11:32:18 PM »
Yet if the US had more gun restrictions (and had this 50 years ago) the fear you feel about someone coming in with a gun would be considerably less, and most likely you'd not have bought a gun.

Funny how that works.

You're right. 

But with the way things are regarding the US and gun control... I feel better arming myself than not to make a statement.  It may seem selfish and cynical, but I hope it makes sense.

I got the gun out of a reaction to a threat which came very close to becoming a reality... not a perceived one.

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2007, 11:56:08 PM »
You're right. 

But with the way things are regarding the US and gun control... I feel better arming myself than not to make a statement.  It may seem selfish and cynical, but I hope it makes sense.


It's neither selfish nor cynical.  But it's not an effective argument about gun policy on an internet message board, that's all I'm saying.
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2007, 12:11:36 AM »
It's neither selfish nor cynical.  But it's not an effective argument about gun policy on an internet message board, that's all I'm saying.

Nor do I expect it to be... but I have a rather dim view of human nature... and I know the history of America... and when it comes to prohibiting things... well, we don't take too kindly to that.

I suppose my inherent discomfort with the idea of complete and total gun control in the US is because I don't expect it to work too well.  So, I figure that it's best to allow law-abiding citizens to own handguns to protect themselves... for the simple reason that I don't trust the the American government to successfully implement a policy of total gun prohibition.
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Offline david25luvit

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #77 on: April 19, 2007, 02:57:33 PM »
Seems to work in other countries.

Gun Control is a fantasy.....Philly

With all the weapons currently available on the black market today
gun control is nothing more than a myth.  No matter where you live
or what country... However I will admit we have more than our share
of violence and ninety nine percent of the time its absolutely senseless. 
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2007, 03:05:26 PM »
Well, you certainly have me convinced with that stellar argument based on zero data.
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Offline northernguy

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2007, 10:36:29 PM »
... So stop saying that the US is the only country that allows people to get guns that can kill people. Milker.

I didn't say that.  What I was pointing out was that the thought of owning a handgun is alien to most of the population here.  A hunting rifle is certainly more common in the rural areas of Canada, but saying you owned a hnadgun would get you a strange look from most Canadians.
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2007, 10:40:42 PM »
the thought of owning a handgun is alien to most of the population here.  A hunting rifle is certainly more common in the rural areas of Canada, but saying you owned a hnadgun would get you a strange look from most Canadians.

Agreed. Being from Europe it took me some time to understand the American's obsession with the second amendment. I don't think you can understand unless you actually live there for some time.

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Offline david25luvit

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2007, 11:07:36 AM »
Just for the record I was offering my opinion....not a stellar argument.
Regardless of where you live (in one way or another) violence affects us all.
It's the human condition...seeing how we're the only species that kills for
pleasure. 

Handguns aren't the problem....It's the people who use them to take life.
Let's face it, anything can be used as a weapon...  I wonder how many
people were killed with a knife, an automobile or for that matter a man's
bare hands? Regardless of how a person kills another...its still a tragedy
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I miss him terribly..........

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2007, 12:35:43 PM »
weak rationalizations man... really weak
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Offline jack

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2007, 01:16:23 PM »
The only way to have prevented the sick bastard last week would have been if students or teachers had been armed. That is a fact many will never be able to accept. This sicko would have found a way to get some type of weapon to accomplish his evil if we had stricter guns laws or if guns were totally illegal.  The fight to ban guns is just as stupid as the war on drugs.
If I hear about this evil mutherfucker being bullied one more time I am gonna puke. Who wasnt bullied? He is dead and the world is a better place.
I am also sick of the national blame game that is in progress, much the same as after 911. Why cant people accept that there are evil people in the world and they are to blame.
I do not own a gun but most people here in Houston do and its a good thing. 

Offline Dachshund

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2007, 01:32:32 PM »
Oh we know there are evil people in this world...believe me, we are well aware of the evil. Yep, we understand evil.

Offline Ann

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2007, 01:42:59 PM »
The only way to have prevented the sick bastard last week would have been if students or teachers had been armed.

No, actually, another way seems blatantly obvious to me. You said it yourself, Jack; SICK. He was SICK. Sick as in mentally ill. He needed help. He didn't get the help he needed - or at least he didn't get the proper follow-up to the meager help he DID get. He fell thought the mental health care cracks and over thirty people have been murdered as a result.

Is arming society really the answer? Kill all the mentally ill people? Where do you draw the line... kill everyone with hiv while you're at it?

For people such as we who are faced daily with the stigma of hiv, I'm surprised there isn't more compassion for people who face the stigma of mental illness. It boggles my mind.

Ann
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2007, 01:54:26 PM »
Ann, unfortunately HIV infection does not impart greater wisdom or a more expansive world view.  But I do share your pain.
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Offline Joe K

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2007, 01:56:23 PM »
Real compassionate bunch here indeed. The man had mental illness and even when discovered, nobody got him the help that he needed. Is that solely the fault of our society? No, but we share most of the burden. Having lived with mental illness I cannot convey how absolutely deluded you can become and for some, even the most heinous of crimes can appeal to them, to end their suffering, because they do not know how or where to ask for the help that they need.

Yes we need gun control laws because you only need look to Canada to see the effects of a society that is not armed. You can argue the Second Amendment all you want, but this country needs to get a grip and remove the millions of guns that have infected this country.  Guns allow people to kill other people and other than hunting and sport, they serve absolutely no purpose amongst the general population.  One way to read the Second Amendment is that when it was drafted, there were no police, national guard, etc. and to me it reads that we can empower people to use guns for civil order, but only as part of a professional security operation.  To think that the entire US military would turn against the citizens, on behalf of our government, thereby necessitating average citizens to need to defend itself, is absolutely ludicrous.

We also need to put pressure on our mental health system to insure that people like Cho do not fall through the cracks. Who knows what an intervention might have prevented, however one fact remains and that is Cho murdered all those innocents and he, and he alone deserves the blame.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 02:04:46 PM by killfoile »

Offline izprince1984

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2007, 02:00:49 PM »
Real compassionate bunch here indeed.  The man had mental illness and even when discovered, nobody got him the help that he needs.  Is that solely the fault of our society, no, but we share most of the burden.  Having lived with mental illness I cannot convey how absolutely deluded you can become and for some, even  the most heinous of crimes can appeal to them, to end their suffering, because they do not know how or where to ask for the help that they need.

Yes we need gun control laws because you only need look to Canada to see the effects of a society that is not armed.  You can argue the Second Amendment all you want, but this country needs to get a grip and remove the millions of guns that have infected our country.

We also need to put pressure on our mental health system to insure that people like Cho do not fall through the cracks.  Who knows what an intervention might have prevented, however one fact remains and that is Cho murdered all those innocents and he, and he alone deserves the blame.

The mental health care system is just an industry looking to make a profit, they don't care who gets hurt or why.

Now if this guy had a lot of money to pay them, and the drug companies, or real good insurance, then he probably wouldn't have "slipped through the cracks", like all parts of our health care system, they just want to make a quick buck, and they'd rather things like this happen than to give someone help for free.
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Offline puertorico2006

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2007, 02:05:42 PM »
im sure there will be a big reform anyhow pretty soon because the health care system, university, everyone is going to get sued.....
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Offline izprince1984

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2007, 02:08:07 PM »
im sure there will be a big reform anyhow pretty soon because the health care system, university, everyone is going to get sued.....

Yeah, and they have tons of cash, tons of lawyers, and a shit ton of corporate lobbyists to drown out our voices with, as usual.

But I wish them lots o' luck with that.
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Offline Joe K

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2007, 02:10:51 PM »
Prince, I will never accept that we cannot affect change and for you to just blow off this issue, by blaming a failing health care system, just diverts the blame.  If we want a reasonable society then we need to provide tools and services for those people who have special challenges.  Mental illness is no different from a physical ailment and actually is one as well, as it interfers with certain chemicals in the brain.

My issue remains that everyone is so center on how he got a gun or whatever and they are totally missing the simple fact that if he had gotten the help he needed, this may not have happened.  What we should be indignant about is why was no one responsible for following up on his therapy and if there is no way to do that, because he broke no law, they maybe we need to revisit what we believe are reasonaable limits on those who suffer from SEVERE AND UNTREATED mental illness.  I would rather society be proactive in treating mental illness and sometimes that involves going against the person wishes, but ultimately it is what is best for the person.

Try and remember that for most of us, when in the middle of our mental challenges, reality flys out the window and we are incapable of making the choices that are in our best interest.  We really need to work at worrying about people.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 02:13:36 PM by killfoile »

Offline puertorico2006

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2007, 02:12:06 PM »
and i think the way things work here in the US correct me if im wrong......

Is the only thing that prohibits you from purchasing a gun is if youve been convicted of a felony??.....

Most mentally ill patients are usually more of a danger to themselves than a danger to others (of course there are the few exceptions and thats when this stuff happens) so barring mentally ill patients from owning a gun is going to be difficult....considering most people have suffered some emotional health problem in their lifetime
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Offline izprince1984

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2007, 02:16:32 PM »
Prince, I will never accept that we cannot affect change and for you to just blow off this issue, by blaming a failing health care system, just diverts the blame.  If we want a reasonable society then we need to provide tools and services for those people who have special challenges.  Mental illness is no different from a physical ailment and actually is one as well, as it interfers with certain chemicals in the brain.

My issue remains that everyone is so center on how he got a gun or whatever and they are totally missing the simple fact that if he had gotten the help he needed, this may not have happened.  What we should be indignant about is why was no one responsible for following up on his therapy and if there is no way to do that, because he broke no law, they maybe we need to revisit what we believe are reasonaable limits on those who suffer from SEVERE AND UNTREATED mental illness.  I would rather society be proactive in treating mental illness and sometimes that involves going against the person wishes, but ultimately it is what is best for the person.

Try and remember that for most of us, when in the middle of our mental challenges, reality flys out the window and we are incapable of making the choices that are in our best interest.  We really need to work at worrying about people.

A psychiatrist can order detainment against the patient's wishes, and have the police take them into custody, but like I said, that rarely happens cause the psychiatrist is there for a paycheck and doesn't give a rat's ass about the actual mental state of the patient.

One of the first things they ask you about, before ANY treatment is provided is HOW YOU WILL BE PAYING, and you could say that you're suicidal or that you're planning on killing someone, and unless they think they're getting paid, they won't treat you.
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Offline puertorico2006

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2007, 02:20:37 PM »
That is not true!....if you are suicidal or a threat to others you are LEGALLY bound to detain the patient....

That is why nobody ever tells the shrink they are suicidal even if they are lol.....im not saying that it never happens but many shrinks would be worried about the legal problems that would arise if they didnt detain someone...

In this case i believe that they recommended detainment but he agreed to get help from an outpatient clinic....but who knows the truth because im sure they are covering their ass :-D

and no matter how crazy someone is sometimes even the psychiatrist doesnt know how crazy he/she really is until stuff like this happens
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Offline jack

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2007, 03:22:17 PM »
Ann, I dont think I ever said anything about killing all the mentally ill people or hiv people. I said if others had been armed they may have been able to stop the sick bastard. He was a sick bastard. Are we not allowed to protect ourselves from sick evil bastards?
Play the blame game. This slaughter of human life is the fault of one person. Not the mean people who bullied him. Not the rich people who he went to school with(i thought all the rich people in Virginia went to U of V). Not the health system. Not you . Not me. Not the media. Not Bush. Not Clinton. Only one person is to blame and he is dead. And that is a very good thing.
I have no compassion for this lunatic. I have a tremendous amount of compassion for all his victims. This clown was not a victim, he was fucking nuts and now he his dead.
Again the only thing that could have prevented this evil would be students or teachers with weapons.

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2007, 03:26:36 PM »
The only way to have prevented the sick bastard last week would have been if students or teachers had been armed. That is a fact many will never be able to accept. This sicko would have found a way to get some type of weapon to accomplish his evil if we had stricter guns laws or if guns were totally illegal.  The fight to ban guns is just as stupid as the war on drugs.
If I hear about this evil mutherfucker being bullied one more time I am gonna puke. Who wasnt bullied? He is dead and the world is a better place.
I am also sick of the national blame game that is in progress, much the same as after 911. Why cant people accept that there are evil people in the world and they are to blame.
I do not own a gun but most people here in Houston do and its a good thing. 

man,,, ur ideas and people who live down there are SICK

Banning guns WORKS in other countries,,, r u saying that for some reason, Americans are just more violent? BS! Don't you realize that NRA is a biggest lobby in DC and there is TONS of money to be made in arming people???? Black market? Do you actually think it will be as easy to bring guns into the country as it is bringing drugs??? You can't compare,,,, R U one of those people who blame yourself for being promiscuous because you have HIV? what kind of rationalization is that?

If that kid was able to purchase a gun in the black market, there would have been at least some chance that he could have gotten caught, instead, he went down the street, went into the gun store, bought a gun and did all this killing. Gosh,,, I can't believe people with HIV thinks this way....
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 03:31:02 PM by egello »
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2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
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Offline puertorico2006

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2007, 03:33:56 PM »

If that kid was able to purchase a gun in the black market, there would have been at least some chance that he could have gotten caught,

Actually getting things on he black market does not have that big of a risk of getting caught....it does have risk but definately not that big....

I bought tons of illegal substances on the blackmarket and never got caught...and i mean LOTS AND LOTS and i would drive to it....When you get things underground your usually pretty careful ...
Infected Probably: may 2005
Diagnosed: 11/2006

11/28/2006 CD4:309 / VL: 1907 No meds yet
12/27/2006 CD4:339/  VL:1649 No meds yet
  4/28/2007 CD4:550/  VL:1800 No meds :-)

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2007, 03:37:08 PM »
did u get a gun? or just some petty drugs?
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline puertorico2006

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2007, 03:41:23 PM »
more than just petty drugs many drugs lol...but its all the same shit....you want something and you can get it.....

Infected Probably: may 2005
Diagnosed: 11/2006

11/28/2006 CD4:309 / VL: 1907 No meds yet
12/27/2006 CD4:339/  VL:1649 No meds yet
  4/28/2007 CD4:550/  VL:1800 No meds :-)

 


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