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Author Topic: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...  (Read 17682 times)

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Offline egello

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How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« on: April 18, 2007, 02:48:05 PM »
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10434961

with his history is some sort of mental sickness, he was still able to purchase a gun? and the seller said "he JUST sold the gun"??? wtf, really.

And, because of this, they talk about further lifting ban on gun control so that everyone can own gun??? wtf, really.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 02:52:42 PM by egello »
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2007, 03:05:50 PM »
I know several people with mental illnesses. You talk with them for an hour and you wouldn't know that they have a mental illness. How would you expect the gun dealer to know? The only one that done anything wrong was the shooter.

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2007, 03:09:07 PM »
definitely, but there should have been some sort of checks and balance,,, meaning make the gun law much more tough!
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2007, 03:14:17 PM »
You tell me how to make it more toughfer? Law abiding gun owners don't comment the crimes.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2007, 03:17:09 PM »
Right.  Because no other countries have tough crime laws and lower homicide rates.
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Offline Grinch

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 03:18:59 PM »
Look at it this way.  If one of the students that got killed had a gun. We certainly wouldn't have had 30 more students killed. We'd have had one or two and a dead idiot that thought it's OK to start shooting people.

It's easier to get an illegal gun than it is to go to the store and buy one.  Making it harder for me to buy a gun legally will not make it harder for someone intent on doing harm to get one.  It will succeed only in ensuring I have no way to shoot back and stop the idiot from killing wife, kids, whomever.

No I don't think everyone should walk around carrying weapons, I just think there's no way to legislate idiots.  Trying to do so won't solve the problem.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 03:28:40 PM »
In Ohio, you pull a gun on someone you best be sure they aren't packing one too. You break in a house and you might just get your ass shot. Waiting 5 minutes for the cops to come, may just be 5 minutes to late.

Offline SirPrize

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 03:29:57 PM »
I personally do not own a gun and don't feel the need to have one in the future.  However, I think it is near impossible to legislate against EVIL.  A butter knife or hatpin could be lethal weapons in the hands of deranged individuals.  It would be advantageous for our lawmakers to address the need for an individual to possess a weapon that fires 20 to 30 rounds successively.

Perhaps the gunmakers should create some kind of countermeasure on civilian owned firearms that would cause the trigger to "lockup" for 30-45 seconds between each round fired.  Something like that could have allowed some of the innocents time to have escaped the massacre!
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Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2007, 03:45:15 PM »
Insanity, using insanity to overcome insanity?
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2007, 03:46:18 PM »
I own a gun... I got one after our door was kicked in while Liz was in the apartment by herself.  If someone breaks into our apartment, they're getting shot.

I'm not a gun nut by any stretch of the imagination, although I think the Second Amendment is pretty explicit in its language.  The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Of course, I think one must use a degree of common sense... does this include nuclear arms?  No.  Even those automatic assault weapon thingies that were banned... I can't say as I have much of a problem with those not being allowed... but Americans should be able to own guns with reasonable restrictions.  The old adage about the First Amendment not protecting someone who yells fire in a crowded theater holds here too, I think. 

But of course, it goes both ways.  Drugs are illegal and very easy to get.  The sale of alcohol to people under 21 is illegal in the US, and lo and behold, where do those drunk 17 year olds come from?  Making gun ownership completely illegal will not get rid of guns... not by any stretch of the imagination....

Personally, I'm comfortable with the gun laws we have in this country, and I'm comfortable with non-crazy people with no criminal record being able to own guns... what I'm not comfortable with is the complete and utter lack of enforcement with the laws that already exist.

The solution to a law being broken because of non-enforcement is not to pass more laws.  It's to enforce the current one.


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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2007, 03:48:36 PM »
I think the Second Amendment is pretty explicit in its language.  The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

You neglected to mention that clause about militias.
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2007, 03:53:22 PM »
You neglected to mention that clause about militias.

I know... but it doesn't say for militia-related purposes only.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I think if they'd wanted to limit gun ownership to private citizens, they would have mentioned something about it... they couldn't have banned gun ownership in a large country in the late 18th century where most people owned them anyway... and furthermore, more than 200 years of constitutional tradition has allowed private citizens to own guns... I see no reason to argue with it.
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Offline Dachshund

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 03:53:55 PM »
Look 'merica ain't changin the gun laws no matter what happens...no measly little massacre is going to change that. Next week it's back to all Sanjaya all the time, unless the next wacko can top this. The boy did raise the standards on carnage so it ain't going to be easy. It's what we are and there ain't no changing it.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 03:55:29 PM »
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Offline Dachshund

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2007, 03:56:30 PM »
I know... but it doesn't say for militia-related purposes only.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I think if they'd wanted to limit gun ownership to private citizens, they would have mentioned something about it... they couldn't have banned gun ownership in a large country in the late 18th century where most people owned them anyway... and furthermore, more than 200 years of constitutional tradition has allowed private citizens to own guns... I see no reason to argue with it.

It also allowed slavery and denied women the right to vote.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2007, 03:56:56 PM »
I know... but it doesn't say for militia-related purposes only.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I think if they'd wanted to limit gun ownership to private citizens, they would have mentioned something about it... they couldn't have banned gun ownership in a large country in the late 18th century where most people owned them anyway... and furthermore, more than 200 years of constitutional tradition has allowed private citizens to own guns... I see no reason to argue with it.

You stated that it was "explicit."  I'm only arguing that if they'd wanted it as explicit as you claim they would not have inserted that clause at all.  Therefore it is not explicit.  Certainly it can be read other ways.

Of course, the definition of "arms" is quite different now too, so this is a rather mundane academic exercise you're engaging in.
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Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 03:58:00 PM »
true, but it could change,, look what happened to Austrailia with with their Tasmania shooting.
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 03:58:34 PM »
Personally, I think we should fight over a different amendment.

I'll give a dollar to someone who runs down the street screaming, "You're infringing my Third Amendment rights!  Call the ACLU!"

And another dollar to anyone who can tell me what the Third Amendment says without looking it up.
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 04:01:44 PM »
You stated that it was "explicit."  I'm only arguing that if they'd wanted it as explicit as you claim they would not have inserted that clause at all.  Therefore it is not explicit.  Certainly it can be read other ways.

Of course, the definition of "arms" is quite different now too, so this is a rather mundane academic exercise you're engaging in.

I just think that the Amendment is pretty explicit in saying that Americans can own guns. 

The potential qualifications in the language of the amendment solely regarding the militia... remember this is also a time when private militias were common... is open to a lot of interpretation.  But I don't think "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is saying anything other than it is.

And yes, I fully agree with you that the definition of arms needs to be debated.  I addressed that issue.  Thomas Jefferson did not know much of Uranium-238, methinks.

You can't hug your children with nuclear arms.
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Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 04:03:34 PM »
can u imagine everyone in LA or NYC owning guns??? i know tons of people there who gets road rage and they are totally sane people, instead of middle fingers and cursing, they would all be shooting at each other..

Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 04:06:01 PM »
can u imagine everyone in LA or NYC owning guns??? i know tons of people there who gets road rage and they are totally sane people, instead of middle fingers and cursing, they would all be shooting at each other..

I heard a half-ironic, tongue-in-cheek explanation that the reason that Americans are so polite to each other on the road (and we are, comparatively...) is that we don't know who's armed.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 04:15:38 PM »
remember this is also a time when private militias were common...

Which is EXACTLY why you should not view it as being so explicit.

Why am I suddenly getting Ronald Reagan thread-style argument flashbacks on this?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 04:18:02 PM »
This ain't got nothing to do with nothing...but I have a good friend who is a black woman and when we are out and about and someone gets on our nerves I whisper in her ear, "kill whitey" and we just laugh and laugh and laugh...

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 04:19:15 PM »
Which is EXACTLY why you should not view it as being so explicit.

Why am I suddenly getting Ronald Reagan thread-style argument flashbacks on this?

Damn.

I did recognize the logical flaw that made for my original argument when posting that but was hoping it was deeply imbedded and you wouldn't catch it.

Well played, good sir.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 04:19:44 PM »
This ain't got nothing to do with nothing...but I have a good friend who is a black woman and when we are out and about and someone gets on our nerves I whisper in her ear, "kill whitey" and we just laugh and laugh and laugh...

What was that you were saying about thread hijacking yesterday, sweetie?
"Iíve slept with enough men to know that Iím not gay"

Offline Dachshund

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2007, 04:20:55 PM »
What was that you were saying about thread hijacking yesterday, sweetie?

I was saying you should move to Florida. ;)....and I did mention killing.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2007, 04:23:43 PM »
***BREAKING NEWS*** the man had been declared by a Virginia court order to be an "imminent danger to others" in 2005.  Thank goodness our gun restrictions are so effective.
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Offline Boo Radley

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2007, 04:24:07 PM »
I'm staying out of this (if you're light-headed try to sit and rest your head between your knees) but will only make my standard remark about the 2nd amendment:

With a slight shifting of letters the amendment could be changed from:

"the right to bear arms"  to "the right to arm bears," and I for one would be much more comfortable in a country where the only guns were owned by bears.

Gee. how many times has everyone seen that tired old chestnut?
String up every aristocrat!
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2007, 04:24:23 PM »
You guys are a trip. You know how to get a person to smile.  :D

Offline Dachshund

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2007, 04:24:57 PM »
Sorry my bad...when guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have guns.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2007, 04:25:59 PM »
I guess my hairy chest qualifies me to carry my gun. Because I'm a bear.  ;)

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2007, 04:27:24 PM »
***BREAKING NEWS*** the man had been declared by a Virginia court order to be an "imminent danger to others" in 2005.  Thank goodness our gun restrictions are so effective.

How did he get one?  A gun show?
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Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2007, 04:30:37 PM »
Good ole HIPAA law.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2007, 04:31:18 PM »
How did he get one?  A gun show?
Gun shop.  He obviously should not have passed a background check having been declared an imminent danger two years ago.
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2007, 04:35:11 PM »
Gun shop.  He obviously should not have passed a background check having been declared an imminent danger two years ago.

Definitely.

Is there any talk of going after whoever sold him the damn things?
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Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2007, 05:17:46 PM »
I heard a half-ironic, tongue-in-cheek explanation that the reason that Americans are so polite to each other on the road (and we are, comparatively...) is that we don't know who's armed.

its true,, thats why i never curse or give a middle finger,,, but so what???? i rather have someone scream and curse me than blow my head off
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2007, 05:21:11 PM »
How did he get one?  A gun show?

he just went to that store and bought it wiht three identificaiton and probalby some shabby background chekc
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2007, 05:22:26 PM »
Definitely.

Is there any talk of going after whoever sold him the damn things?

NO,, thanks to our gun craze manicacs, the law doesn't allow going after the gun seller no matter what!
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2007, 05:31:09 PM »
the second amendment was written when American did not have the strict security system that it has now or should have now. its a remnant of our racist and colonial history when people were afraid of the wild west and slave revolt, that should be gotten rid of now. Why the f. do you guys all think America has the highest or the most percentage (70 percenta) of all gun killing crime rate in the world? do you think Japan or Korea that has extremely strict gun law have this kind of civilian shooting??? Hell no!, you actually trust market economy and greed for money culture like our modern day hyper capitalistic culture to allow people to own and sell guns? why is it more strict for people to get antidepressant than getting a gun? freedom to n for what?

do you guy actually want people to be carrying around handgun in schools, hospitals, and churches just in case something like this might occur?

gosh,,, insane....
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline RapidRod

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2007, 05:50:25 PM »
If they did you would never know it. "State owned media."

Offline egello

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2007, 06:07:11 PM »
vs. corporate owned media hmmmm :-\
Reyataz / Norvir / Truvada/ Androgel 5 g / 2 days
1/29/07 14 T, 300 k V, 1.8 %
2/22/07 197 T, 247 V, 6.8 %
3/27/07 164 T, <50 V, 5.4 %
5/28/07 177 T, <50 V, 8.2 %
7/28/07 214 T, <50 V, 9.6 %
10/3/07 380 T, <50 V, 10 % no more Mepron, Famvir

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2007, 06:15:26 PM »
Definitely.

Is there any talk of going after whoever sold him the damn things?
Why would we go after who sold it?  The gun shop owner (evidently) DID the background check and nothing showed up.  Someone fucked up in whatever agency should have taken that 2005 court information and funneled into whatever database they tap into in a gun shop.
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2007, 06:18:10 PM »
Why would we go after who sold it?  The gun shop owner (evidently) DID the background check and nothing showed up.  Someone fucked up in whatever agency should have taken that 2005 court information and funneled into whatever database they tap into in a gun shop.

I didn't think of that.

Somebody did screw up somewhere along the line, and they better investigate where it happened.
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2007, 06:19:07 PM »
If they did you would never know it. "State owned media."

Odd.  Japan and South Korea rank higher in an index of press freedom than the United States.

source
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Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2007, 06:22:13 PM »
I didn't think of that.

Somebody did screw up somewhere along the line, and they better investigate where it happened.

What do you expect in a redneck state?
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2007, 06:27:14 PM »
What do you expect in a redneck state?

Nothing less.
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Offline david25luvit

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2007, 07:01:23 PM »
I believe its time we started taking personal responsibility for what we do....
and stop looking for someone else to blame.
Most guns used in criminal activity are either stolen or bought on the black market.
Now how can gun control do anything to stop these statistics?

Recently I bought a hand gun...there's some kind of crime spree going on in West Mobile
and it was an ordeal to get it.  From my point of view gun control works but there are those
times when the system fails and when that happens it is a terribly tragedy.

I do offer my most sincere sympathies to the families and friends of those who lost their lives.
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I miss him terribly..........

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2007, 07:14:39 PM »
I believe its time we started taking personal responsibility for what we do....
and stop looking for someone else to blame.
Most guns used in criminal activity are either stolen or bought on the black market.
Now how can gun control do anything to stop these statistics?

Seems to work in other countries.
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2007, 07:26:42 PM »
What about our neighbors to the north?

They have guns in Canada.  Lots of them.  22% of Canadians own a gun.

But their level of gun violence is much lower than ours, even taking population difference into consideration.

They do have greater controls on ammunition sales and have registration laws... but aren't shooting each other all the time... but even before the registry was put in place, Canada's low crime rate was the stuff of which dreams were made.
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Offline milker

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Re: How screwed up is the gun control,,, gosh...
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2007, 07:28:24 PM »
The guy sent a mini-series to NBC... oh yeah.. now he's a tv star...

Milker.
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