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Author Topic: Playing the Trump Card  (Read 9061 times)

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Offline livingpositively

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  • Posts: 369
Playing the Trump Card
« on: April 10, 2007, 11:17:35 PM »
I will probably be hated by everyone for stating my feelings here, but I am really pissed off about the whole “cry for help” incident of yesterday.

I am very glad that everything worked out for the better, and I commend and applaud everyone who reached out for many hours to help the person.

Here’s what angers me though.  As Andy said in one of his posts in that thread, a ban has never been lifted before.  BUT, now precedence has been set.  A person now sees that they can come to the forums, create multiple screen names, be an asshole, or whatever else might lead to being banned, play the suicide card and have their account reactivated.  THEN, the person almost immediately starts posting flaming posts again.  How much more of a patsy does everyone here want/need to look like?  Give me a break people. 

I know several people thought he was serious.  Maybe he was.  My experience says that people that are serious don’t forewarn people about their intentions.  In any case, like I said, I’m glad it worked out for the better in this case.

I think everyone that helped is amazing, because honestly, my thoughts on suicide are not very compassionate or empathetic – especially when you drag people from hundreds or thousands of miles away into it (that is not referring only to this particular incident, as we have seen this more than once before from other people), knowing that there is little to nothing they can do, as you sit back lurking on the forums, sipping a martini, having a grand old time watching people fucking scramble to try and save your life.

I am not angry with the person who created the “stir.”  They apparently needed help, they got it, and I have no doubt the measures would be taken again to save the same or another life.  I’m pissed that EVERYONE was made a fool of and that the rules, all of sudden, change if your card “trumps the ban.”
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2007, 11:24:14 PM »
a-fuckin-men

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2007, 11:26:26 PM »
yeah. the ole suicide card always works. Used it in college when the police interupted a drug deal I was involved in.  It worked.  Created enough confusion so that evidence was "lost" and I went home. Havent used it since but I also havent been involved with drug commerce since then either.

Offline skeebo1969

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2007, 11:28:03 PM »


  Oh well shit happens ;D
I despise the song Love is in the Air, you should too.

Offline Robert

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2007, 11:31:31 PM »
After reading Boo's responses today, yeah, I feel like I've been had.  Just like IHH and his Jesus routine.  In our own sincere ways, we were all hoping for the best including Tim Horn and Peter.  But they got shat on.  You shit on them, you shit on me.  I don't like it.

robert
..........

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2007, 11:31:43 PM »
Shane,

Precedent? I doubt it. This is Teh Intawebs not the Supreme Court. It's been demonstrated time and time again that just because a decision is made in one case, it doesn't mean it applies in another.

Justice doesn't always prevail, you know.

I know several people thought he was serious.  Maybe he was.  My experience says that people that are serious don’t forewarn people about their intentions.  In any case, like I said, I’m glad it worked out for the better in this case.

All threats of self-harm and suicide should be taken seriously. Given Boodles history (which you may not be aware of) it was especially important that we took him serious. If anyone has the means and gumption to neck themselves, it's Boo.

I’m pissed that EVERYONE was made a fool of and that the rules, all of sudden, change if your card “trumps the ban.”

Well sweetpea, you should probably speak for yourself on that. I certainly don't think I was made a fool of. I (amongst many others) responded to a friend in need.

If that makes me a fool in your book, it's a badge of honour I'm proud to wear.

MtD

Offline HIVworker

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  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2007, 11:36:16 PM »
I am not angry with the person who created the “stir.” 

Are you sure you aren't angry at them?

A person now sees that they can come to the forums, create multiple screen names, be an asshole, or whatever else might lead to being banned, play the suicide card and have their account reactivated.  THEN, the person almost immediately starts posting flaming posts again.  How much more of a patsy does everyone here want/need to look like?  Give me a break people.

Honestly, I don't see what the solution is. If someone says they are going to kill themselves, don't answer the phone and aren't in then what do are you supposed to do? Second guess them and see if you were right in the morning?

Don't get me wrong here. I am disappointed at Boo for all the things he did after he came back. Do I feel "Had"?? Nope. I actually feel good that I did something.

In all honesty, some people have to learn to hit the ignore button and not let paranoia drive their day. I feel the ignore button is underused.

I might re-suggest an idea for an 'ignore thread' button, which would allow you to ignore a whole thread. I've a feeling that the reason people don't use those commands is because it is like rubbernecking at a car accident....oh people just HAVE to look...

R
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 11:38:02 PM by HIVworker »
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 11:45:53 PM »

I know several people thought he was serious.  Maybe he was.  My experience says that people that are serious don’t forewarn people about their intentions.  In any case, like I said, I’m glad it worked out for the better in this case.

All threats of self-harm and suicide should be taken seriously. Given Boodles history (which you may not be aware of) it was especially important that we took him serious. If anyone has the means and gumption to neck themselves, it's Boo.

I’m pissed that EVERYONE was made a fool of and that the rules, all of sudden, change if your card “trumps the ban.”

Well sweetpea, you should probably speak for yourself on that. I certainly don't think I was made a fool of. I (amongst many others) responded to a friend in need.

If that makes me a fool in your book, it's a badge of honour I'm proud to wear.

MtD

Matty,

It seems that you are one of the people, as I figured there would be people, that misunderstand or take the incorrect context of my post.  I believe I stated, more than once, that I applaud everyone's efforts.  My views about suicide happen to be different from a lot of people's.  Let's be real here, Matty, it's not as though you're thoughts and opinions are always in the middle of the masses either.

The fact of the matter is, my post was not to trash Boo for what he did.  I thought I did a fairly decent job of trying to convey that.


Rich,

Yes, I'm quite sure I'm not angry at Boo.  I don't have any emotional investment in him.  I was "rooting" for everyone to be successful in their help efforts, because he is a human and it's a shame that someone feels that is their only option.

I didn't even see "the" thread yesterday.  Never saw it until this evening, so the ignore button was not the issue.
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline HIVworker

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  • Posts: 918
  • HIV researcher
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 11:49:31 PM »
I didn't even see "the" thread yesterday.  Never saw it until this evening, so the ignore button was not the issue.

Not you, him. I went back and read his posts and saw he got wound up about posts that were ambiguous. You could take it one of two ways and he always took the worst one. He should have just hit ignore rather than getting all wound up. He took them to be a personal slur on him. Kind of like the way you did then. See, we just highlighted the danger of ambiguous writing on a forum. Two interpretations, which do you pick.  :P


R
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 11:51:55 PM by HIVworker »
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2007, 11:51:36 PM »
Not you, him. I went back and read his posts and saw he got wound up about posts that were ambiguous. You could take it one of two ways and he always took the worst one. He should have just hit ignore rather than getting all wound up. I guess that was my point..

R

My bad, I misunderstood.   :)
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2007, 11:54:07 PM »
It seems that you are one of the people, as I figured there would be people, that misunderstand or take the incorrect context of my post.  I believe I stated, more than once, that I applaud everyone's efforts.  My views about suicide happen to be different from a lot of people's.  Let's be real here, Matty, it's not as though you're thoughts and opinions are always in the middle of the masses either.

Well we'll probably have to agree to disagree about whether or not I've misunderstood you. I'm pretty sure I haven't. I'm clever like that.

Additionally I'm more than familiar with your views on suicide. I've heard you express them before. To be blunt I find your attitude on this subject to be startlingly heartless and lacking in human compassion. You're entitled to that view, to be sure. I'm not sure if it's because you're unaware of or uable to understand the issues which accompany suicide and self-harm or you just don't care.

But I view you in a diminished light because of them.

MtD

Offline HIVworker

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  • HIV researcher
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2007, 11:58:19 PM »
..and I view you in diminishing light for not referring to yourself in the third person in that last sentence.

NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 12:00:26 AM »
..and I view you in diminishing light for not referring to yourself in the third person in that last sentence.

From time to time Matty the Damned is unpredictable, dearest. ;) ;D

MtD

Offline HIVworker

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  • HIV researcher
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2007, 12:01:01 AM »
much better...
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline livingpositively

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  • Posts: 369
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2007, 12:01:30 AM »
I'm clever like that.

But I view you in a diminished light because of them.


Of course you are, Matty.  Nobody can fool you.  You are the supreme mind of these forums an it would be impossible for you to make such a mistake, minor as it might be.  It's just the simple fact that you might have to say, even in your own mind if not outwardly, that you made a mistake or misunderstood something.  Whatever.

I was not aware, nor did I necessarily care, that you had invested a view of me.  The fact that it might be diminished, although I don't expect it was that high to begin with, really doesn't affect me in the least.

But thanks for clearing that up for my less than supreme mental capacity.

Edited to add:  Oddly enough, Matty, I must wonder where your familiarity with my views on suicide comes from.  I have never had any communication with you outside of these forums and I have not stated my views about it in the forums.  Save the omniscience for someone who can be fooled.  Nice try.  Don't try to make this thread about what it was not intended to be about.  I have stated, more than a couple of times now, what the topic is.  I used the incident at hand to "explain" the situation.  The suicide attempt/threat or whatever it was, is not the issue here.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 01:02:35 AM by livingpositively »
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline HIVworker

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  • HIV researcher
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2007, 12:04:19 AM »
**********runs in shouting hit the ignore button.

Falls over and splits his pants.
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline DingoBoi

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  • Bailey's Infected Cream™ Served since 2004
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 12:08:49 AM »
i fail to see what readmittance to this forum has brought except additional strife... something that could have and should have been accomplished by other means obviously available to other members here.

and yes, it does set a precedent because everyone now knows exactly which buttons to push.

Online Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2007, 12:16:40 AM »

The fact of the matter is, my post was not to trash Boo for what he did.  I thought I did a fairly decent job of trying to convey that.

You sure fooled me.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline HIVworker

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  • HIV researcher
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2007, 12:57:59 AM »
I have to agree with that. I wouldn't care if you came out and said you were bashing him. At least that would be honest. To say you are not and then do so through a thin veil is everything that is wrong with forums. It's passive aggressive BS. I vote you say what you mean. If you don't like hearing what people say then just agree that you don't see eye to eye. If they bait you, ignore them.

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline livingpositively

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  • Posts: 369
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2007, 01:14:16 AM »
Rich,

It is far from passive aggressive bullshit.  I said exactly what I intended to say.

You want the real deal?  I don't give a fuck if Boo killed himself.  I don't know Boo and I have nothing invested in him.  How can I be angry at someone that I have nothing invested in?  His death, while sad from a human point of view, would mean nothing more to me than hearing about it on the 6:00 news.  For those that have an emotional investment in Boo, they took the measures they felt they needed to take.  Kudos to them for doing so.  I would do the same for someone I had emotional involvement with.

Tell me how effective it would have been to just say, in my thread, "I'm angry because the rules are changing"  Not very, right?  The situation surround the changing rules needed to accompany.  Unfortunately, it's a very sensitive subject.

Those who choose to misconstrue the meaning of my post will do so regardless.  I know what I meant and I have said more than a couple times now what I meant.  It is what it is.
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2007, 01:18:39 AM »
It's nice to know you have zero emotional involvement on a support board for HIV on which you are a participant.  That's about the most asswipe-ish comment I've ever heard.  I hope you don't mind me saying that to you, since you have no emotional involvement on the board I must assume that won't hurt your feelings.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2007, 01:29:29 AM »
Well you're correct about one point.  It doesn't hurt my feelings.

You are incorrect about another point, however.  I didn't say I have no emotional involvement in these forums.  I said I have no emotional involvement with Boo.  Don't try to tell me that you have emotional involvement with every member of these forums.  That's ludicrous and simply not believable on any level.

You have chosen to misconstrue a small part of that post and use it out of context.  Nice try.
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Online Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2007, 01:35:07 AM »

You have chosen to misconstrue a small part of that post and use it out of context.  Nice try.

If you don't care that a fellow member would die then no, you have no emotional involvement on the board.  Emotional involvement need not mean a direct personal relationship.  I may not know you, nor have I had much interaction with you on these boards, but if I were to read that you died (from whatever reason) I'd still think it a sad occasion.  I certainly would not wave it off like you seem be doing.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2007, 01:43:35 AM »
Um...are you even reading what I'm saying?  I dare say not.  You are picking and choosing the parts you want to "hear."

His death, while sad from a human point of view, would mean nothing more to me than hearing about it on the 6:00 news.

That sounds to me like exactly what you just said, more or less.  You would find my (or presumably, any forum member's) death a sad occassion.  That doesn't mean you would dwell on it for days, etc, etc.

Again, I will say, don't make this thread about something it was not intended to be about.
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2007, 01:58:18 AM »
Yeah, I'm the sole person on the board hearing you the wrong way.  Silly me... I'm just a moron.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2007, 02:32:13 AM »
Philly, at this point I would have to conclude that you are intentionally choosing to "hear me wrong"

My intent was stated in the original post and has been restated several times thereafter.  I will not argue about the intended point of my post with someone who is being blatantly pig-headed.  Get over yourself already.
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Online Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2007, 02:54:50 AM »
Sorry, but the your whole initial posts rests on the assumption that the suicide attempt was a ruse.  All of those more directly involved seem to be of the consensus that it was not, and I am one of those people. 

You were not directly involved with the person so that entire premise is simply flawed.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline fearless

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2007, 03:11:15 AM »
I will probably be hated by everyone for stating my feelings here, but I am really pissed off about the whole “cry for help” incident of yesterday.

Here’s what angers me though.  As Andy said in one of his posts in that thread, a ban has never been lifted before.  BUT, now precedence has been set.  A person now sees that they can come to the forums, create multiple screen names, be an asshole, or whatever else might lead to being banned, play the suicide card and have their account reactivated.  THEN, the person almost immediately starts posting flaming posts again.  How much more of a patsy does everyone here want/need to look like?  Give me a break people. 

I am not angry with the person who created the “stir.”  They apparently needed help, they got it, and I have no doubt the measures would be taken again to save the same or another life.  I’m pissed that EVERYONE was made a fool of and that the rules, all of sudden, change if your card “trumps the ban.”

I think I've encapsulated what appear to be your issues with what went down yesterday.

I must say that I don't agree. If 'rules' were bent, and a few peoples noses were put out of joint, so be it. I'm just glad that a life was saved yesterday.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline sweetasmeli

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2007, 05:38:34 AM »
I don’t wish to go into my views right now about suicide. But I do want to say this:

I find it deplorable that anyone would single out others as the cause for their feelings, thoughts and/or behaviour.

We are all entitled to our own happiness or misery. We are also entitled to choose how we live or die, for that matter. This is what free will is. Just my opinion.

But for goodness sake, whatever our choices, we must own them. Personal responsibility is what separates the survivors of life’s adversities from the victims.

And I’m not talking about not crying out for help or not sharing one’s despair in an hour of need. I’m talking about not trying to shift the responsibility for your choices on to other people.

That’s just selfish, unrealistic and, well, bang out of order.

I repeat the point of this post: Whatever your choices may be, own them.

Melia

*edited for some excruciating cut and paste errors while trying to change syntax ::)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 05:44:34 AM by sweetasmeli »
/\___/\       /\__/\
(=' . '=)    (=' . '=)
(,,,_ ,,,)/   (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to everyone!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2007, 06:27:15 AM »
Edited to add:  Oddly enough, Matty, I must wonder where your familiarity with my views on suicide comes from.  I have never had any communication with you outside of these forums and I have not stated my views about it in the forums.  Save the omniscience for someone who can be fooled.  Nice try.  Don't try to make this thread about what it was not intended to be about.  I have stated, more than a couple of times now, what the topic is.  I used the incident at hand to "explain" the situation.  The suicide attempt/threat or whatever it was, is not the issue here.

At no time did I say you'd posted about suicide here and I agree we've never communicated outside of these forums.

But nonetheless and, with the greatest of respect, I'm right about your views on suicide. And I have heard you expound on this issue previously.

Just not in these forums.

The thing with having an opinion and expressing the same is that it invites comment from others. Particularly those who differ with you. You and I differ on this issue Shane. That's all. You expressed a strong point of view and I responded in similarly strong terms. But, I would submit, I have been uncharacteristically respectful towards you.

Now this affair with Boodles is an issue of great sensistivity for many of us. For those who were involved in what went down yesterday and others who watched horrified as the entire drama unfolded. Despite the rights and wrongs of the whole thing, we love Boodles very much.

His increasingly erratic and difficult behaviour of late is a result of long standing medical condition. It's heart-wrenching to see someone you're extraordinarily fond of unravelling and feeling powerless to do anything. Nevertheless, as horrid as this is for those of us who love Boodles, we can't even begin to imagine how dreadful things must be for him at the moment.

MtD

Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2007, 08:11:12 AM »
Shane & Philly, you ended up in a little flamewar in this thread.  Please take it down a notch, and argue the issues without personal attacks.  Not an official warning yet, but you'll get one soon if you keep it up.

Peter

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2007, 08:35:00 AM »


" My experience says that people that are serious don't forewarn people about their intentions."

Not only is the statement flat wrong it can be dangerous. Many, many, people threaten suicide and make their intentions well known before attempting suicide. Pick up any newspaper and you will read a horror story of the loved one on the phone when someone offs themselves. It happens every day.

That said, if and when it should happen again the majority of forum members will react the same way...and good for us.

AD

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2007, 10:18:49 AM »
I have only read your post so far livingpositively so my answer is to that post only so far.....

While I agree with you somewhat.  I'd much rather err on the side of caution than having the thought that I could have done something and didn't and someone DID take their own life because of that inaction.  I HATE to use the US Criminal Justice system as an example but it is set up to "theoretically" allow the guilty to go free rather than to imprison ONE innocent person (thats the INTENT, not saying its the outcome all the time).  Is it PERFECT?  Not by any stretch of the imagination but is the intent behind the actions meant to protect those and help those in need at their darkest times? Yes.

For me, it's what I need to sleep at night.  I personally feel that even with a precedent set, that the moderators and the rest of us for that matter can spot someone who is TRULY in need of assistance and I would defer to them for final judgement as it is totally a judgement call. 

I feel they did the right thing and that in this life very few things are black and white.  This was a heavily shaded gray area and my opinion is that we do everything we can to reach out and help until it proves ENTIRELY futile.  I remember when another member came on here in a rant and flaming everyone including me for trying to help him and everyone was ready to ban him, he was in a bad spot at the time and is now in a much better place in his life.  I like to think we helped him get there.

An incident like this also serves notice to the reality some of our members deal with.  This is a support forum and while we have our fun, when someone needs us we tend to step up to the plate.  Whether that is what happened in the past two days, or helping Joseph figure out what kind of lube to use so his ass isnt on fire we are usually there to help.

I'm proud of what was done.  And I respect those who also call it out as both sides are needed.  When the crisis passes it needs to be looked at and analyzed as to what was done and why it was done.  Lets just try to keep the emotions out of it.  We are here to support those of us with this fabulously famous virus and all of the issues that accompany it.  Sometimes those are trivial, and sometimes they can be life and death. 

Thats enough from me.....
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 10:29:42 AM by ACinKC »
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline David_CA

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2007, 10:29:31 AM »
I agree that what was done to prevent a death recently was the right thing to do.  There is one issue that bothers me, though.  When people talk about quitting meds and allowing themselves to die, many are supportive of that.  When a person, for whatever reason (mental illness, etc), wants to 'allow' themselves to die by suicide, why aren't we supportive of that?  This is not a judgement by any means, but a legitimate question. 

My grandfather, who I never knew, killed himself back in the late 50's.  I can remember being told what his (mental) illness was, but I can't recall it now.  I do know he was having electroshock for it.  I'm remembering it being explained that he couldn't deal with the treatment and was concerned about his family's wellbeing. 

Having said all that, I would still do what I could to prevent somebody actively or passively taking their life.   

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2007, 10:36:46 AM »
I agree that what was done to prevent a death recently was the right thing to do.  There is one issue that bothers me, though.  When people talk about quitting meds and allowing themselves to die, many are supportive of that.  When a person, for whatever reason (mental illness, etc), wants to 'allow' themselves to die by suicide, why aren't we supportive of that?  This is not a judgement by any means, but a legitimate question. 

My grandfather, who I never knew, killed himself back in the late 50's.  I can remember being told what his (mental) illness was, but I can't recall it now.  I do know he was having electroshock for it.  I'm remembering it being explained that he couldn't deal with the treatment and was concerned about his family's wellbeing. 

Having said all that, I would still do what I could to prevent somebody actively or passively taking their life.   

David

I think you will find that when someone talks of quitting meds and allowing themselves to succumb to this little beast inside that we have urged them to consider ALL OF THEIR OPTIONS and make a sound decision based on those options.  When someone is committing suicide they are not rationally considering all of their options most of the time.  So we ask them to do the same thing, please dont make a FINAL decision until you've considered all of the options.

That to me is the difference.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline David_CA

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2007, 10:41:22 AM »
I think you will find that when someone talks of quitting meds and allowing themselves to succumb to this little beast inside that we have urged them to consider ALL OF THEIR OPTIONS and make a sound decision based on those options.  When someone is committing suicide they are not rationally considering all of their options most of the time.  So we ask them to do the same thing, please dont make a FINAL decision until you've considered all of the options.

That to me is the difference.

Agreed.   I used to work with a guy who had AIDS.  Believe me, he wasn't thinking rationally towards the end when he tried to kill himself.  I don't think he was capable of much rational thought at that point, honestly.  Were my grandfather's options fully considered?  We'll really never know.  In his mind, I'm sure he thought so.
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2007, 10:49:18 AM »
Agreed.   I used to work with a guy who had AIDS.  Believe me, he wasn't thinking rationally towards the end when he tried to kill himself.  I don't think he was capable of much rational thought at that point, honestly.  Were my grandfather's options fully considered?  We'll really never know.  In his mind, I'm sure he thought so.

I see your point.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2007, 11:56:26 AM »
Dear All,

If indeed we were "had" the other night, I still think we made the right efforts under those particular circumstances. Overall I thought people handled a difficult situation with amazing teamwork and support.

Personally, I don't have any messianic inclinations. So I absolutely decline the mission of trying to save anybody. (Help, support and service are a different matter). In my experience, if someone really wants to suicide they are going to accomplish it, no matter what obstacles are put in their path. 

As far as matters here in the Forum are concerned we remain committed to keeping the space safe. That includes enforcing the rules as fairly and impartially as we can. Nothing has changed about that and I don't forsee that it will.   

The comments above and elsewhere seem an inevitable reaction after the stress and emotion of Monday evening. We're still here, (or at least most of us), and we're getting on with "taking care of business."
Andy Velez

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2007, 09:28:38 PM »
and where do we draw the 'line' between support in this forum and abuse of it?

Other forum members here are guility of aiding and abetting the fraud that was perpetuated here.

Both that poster and others who supported it abused this forum and it's quite sickening.

I don't know who those members are but I judge them equally guilty. 

So what happens now?

Bailey (who feels like casting the third or fourth stone)


Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2007, 09:31:42 PM »
Other forum members here are guility of aiding and abetting the fraud that was perpetuated here.

Both that poster and others who supported it abused this forum and it's quite sickening.

I don't know who those members are but I judge them equally guilty.


Well before anyone starts judging anyone else guilty of "abusing the forums" they should probably make sure their own record is absolutely spotless.

Because people who live in glass houses should have sex in the basement and all that.

MtD

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2007, 09:37:12 PM »
I, as well as you, have served our time for transgressions.  We did it legitimatelly.

This is not about having a spotless record.  It's about how these forums are to be looked at and what trust we can put in them.

That trust, by recent abuses of multiple accounts, has been strongly breached recently by multiple 'former' members.

I walk as much a thin line as you do matty, as another ban for either of us is permanent.... or is it?



Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2007, 09:55:14 PM »
I, as well as you, have served our time for transgressions.  We did it legitimatelly.

This is not about having a spotless record.  It's about how these forums are to be looked at and what trust we can put in them.

That trust, by recent abuses of multiple accounts, has been strongly breached recently by multiple 'former' members.

I walk as much a thin line as you do matty, as another ban for either of us is permanent.... or is it?


All these silly references to "former" members run contrary to my Australianess. Let's be clear. You're referring to Boo who is the only member to have had a permanent ban overturned.

The other recent sock-puppets (IHaveHope and Val are the only one that comes to mind) remain banned and I don't see a commutation of their sentences in offing.

But you never know. These decisions are up to the Goderators. I have long since stopped concerning myself about the decisions the Administration makes in the running of this place. Whether it is in regard to me or even you Dingles.

Dingo, you may wish to convene some sort of Circle of Judgement to name and shame people you think have transgressed Teh Rules of Teh Forums and that's entirely up to you. I fancy, however, that the majority of us will want to have no part of such a destructive and tawdry exercise.

MtD

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2007, 10:08:53 PM »
they haven't professed suicidal tendencies, whether real or imagined.

And yes, boo is the point, though not directly the subject of this dicussion.  The person is immaterial, it's the policy.

The moderators should restate their policy, whatever it is, because as of now, it's very unclear.

Seems it only takes a suicide threat as of now. 








Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2007, 10:12:53 PM »
The moderators should restate their policy, whatever it is, because as of now, it's very unclear.

Seems it only takes a suicide threat as of now.


The suicide comment is unworthy.

But that to one side, I can't understand why you're so verklempt over this issue of being banned. Surely Dingles you've learned your lesson just as Matty the Damned has learned his?

MtD

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2007, 10:18:46 PM »
matty, it's merely a fact.

I know we will never agree (when do we ever?), but for myself, yourself, boo and everybody else who has been temp or perm suspended, how much is this forum to endure and at what cost to the remaining members?

I truly fail to see what could not have been accomplished in and out of this forum without readmittance of someone admittedly unstable.  So it's suicide threats that now allow abuse of other members, who may be dealing with their own severe problems.

My opinion and mine alone.  Your mileage may vary.

Online Miss Philicia

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2007, 10:26:00 PM »
*sigh*

the "re-admittance" was needed in a timely manner at the... uh, time

sorry you weren't here at the appointed hour
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2007, 10:29:22 PM »
actually philly, I was.

Thanks for asking.

(also why I didn't post in that thread)

Offline HIVworker

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2007, 10:33:18 PM »
Dingo,

I admit that what went on took a while to come out...the whole duel member postings, the backlash against members within minutes of coming back. I see what you are saying, but how do you propose we react when someone says they will kill themselves? We are to ignore that from now on based on the postings of one person? If so, we could be failing to reach out to someone when they need it the most. I agree that a precedent has been set that is maybe dangerous. However, what is the way forward? I don't see a black and white answer on this one. Just frustration that it went down as it did. For the record I share this frustration, but don't want to prevent banned members from ever being reinstated. Maybe their despare caused them to get banned? It's a hard call.

R
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2007, 10:36:17 PM »
but for myself, yourself, boo and everybody else who has been temp or perm suspended, how much is this forum to endure and at what cost to the remaining members?

I truly fail to see what could not have been accomplished in and out of this forum without readmittance of someone admittedly unstable.  So it's suicide threats that now allow abuse of other members, who may be dealing with their own severe problems.

My opinion and mine alone.  Your mileage may vary.


Well Dingles, I guess I just have to say to you what I said in the thread when it was revealed that the Sword of Petercles dangles above my wooden head.

There is no justice on Teh Internets. And that's cool.

Ultimately policy is determined by those who have their eager fingers over the Administrators button. Rather than wring our hands about what should be, it's much easier to accept what is.

And to move on from there.

MtD
(Who is used to being in more shit than the early explorers)

Offline DingoBoi

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Re: Playing the Trump Card
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2007, 10:42:49 PM »
quite a measured post hivworker.

I don't know the answers either.  I definitely have frustrations of how things work around here.  

Perhaps no permanent bans, but escalating ones?  A longer and longer cooling off period?  That really doesn't address is issue at hand, but it is intertwined.

When do the mods cut someone off?  and what decides permanancy?  By and large, I think the mods have been quite adept at doing so, but this really raises the question of 'Is someone irredeemable and how many chances do we give?  How far do we go to accomodate unstable and abusive posters?

This really are serious questions and should be addressed seperate from boo specifically.

I do not disagree entirely with what transpired, but I also think it didn't require reinstatement here as so many people have/had other ways of talking and interacting.

Not my call, but my opinion.  And we certainly saw the abuse that decision led to.




 


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