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Author Topic: The New(bies) Kids on the Block  (Read 13689 times)

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Offline Val

  • Member
  • Posts: 938
  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« on: April 05, 2007, 05:31:08 AM »
The new kids on the block living with Hiv have arrived here at our forums, and it is my guess that they are here to stay.  They profess a new reality that we  "oldbies"  will have to get used to,  and this in spite of liking it or not; in spite of  agreeing with it or not.  These new kids are opinionated, strong-minded and most importantly they do not belong to any cliques!  Therefore, it is my opinion that they will not follow   "the sycophantic cloning process" (my quote) displayed more often than not in these message boards.

However, what attracts me the most about their ways of dealing and facing their daily life with Hiv is that big-hearted, lusciously orchestrated unison and symphony-like threads with its sparking gamelan, tymbals,  berimbau and  drum-inspired riffs --- hey, they are the You Tube generation, after all ---  and easy-to-dig  posts that sometimes sound like...melodies!  In fact, they are hardly ever morose or dark in mood and disdainful --- introspective, yes, they can be that, but never pessimistic or angry and I believe in their honesty.  Well, some of them are angry from time to time; but, then again, who is not?

The new reality that these kids set forth is the one-pill-a-day actuality.  It is indeed far from the daily and sinister truth that we, oldbies, knew back in the old days.  In fact, I do remember vividly and markedly my own daily reality and life with this bug.  At a certain point, I would take up to 36 pills in a single day!   Nevertheless, this cruel reality that was my lot does not give me any authority over them.  It should not be used as a right to imply that their way of coping with this disease is somewhat reckless and misguided.  If anything, it does put me on a certain category of long-term survival due basically to Science and my own struggles and victories over Hiv.

Besides, the mirror in which the newbies like to look at is not the  "Till Eulenspiegel mirror", or the famous  "Owl Mirror" as referred already in another thread of mine.  No, the mirror that they prefer is similar to the one used by the witch in the  Snow White fairy tale to  ask  "who's the most beautiful  one to go to the ball"!  Lipodistrophy is not as big a problem for them as it was for us back then.


Mind you, I am not trying to be their spokeman or anything similar, but I am expressing myself freely and without any sentiment of requital.  Yes,  these new kids on the block do befriend and support olbies like me whenever the occasion arises.  But, that doesn't mean that the oldbie that I am has to defend and/or spank them.  I have no right to attempt such foolish thing. 

And because their reality today is indeed contrastive with what was ours, it is only normal to expect that their attitudes and, therefore, replies to posts be as contrastive and bold as their reality.    One does not have to look  further than these forums to remark all the informations about Hiv that is readily available at their fingertips.  Information and guidance that would only be dreamed of by most of us back in the 80s!  Now, does this generation gap allows for posts that tend to increase the already existent cleavage between  "newbies"  and  "oldbies"?

Is the You Tube and Living with Hiv generation supposed to be told --- and reminded --- time and again that AIDS is a deadly disease even with all the undeniably and almost miraculous advances made lately by Science?   Are they supposed to be alerted that death is knocking precipitately in their doors?   Perhaps not.  When I write these words, in fact, I have in mind especially the newly-diagnosed that come to these forums for support and, why not, a little relief and laugh.  These are the newbies that are most of the time fighting with the contrasting feelings and the harsh reality of an AIDS diagnosis. 

Now, I am aware of the fact that enthusiasms (especially with the written word) run amok when one is feeling these kids need perhaps some correction and we, oldbies, feel  messianic.  We might be just guilty for it!  I am also conscious, however, that it isn't in the least temperamental or over-bearing from the part of the newbies to claim a little revelry.  And with this feeling in mind, I would rather refrain from raining on their parade unless I expect them to pee on my  "death parade"!  So be though neither, oldbie!, if you expect a little respect from them!

Sloth, inaction  and especially indifference  towards their replies, moreover, will definitely only exacerbate the feeling of cleavage that is slowly infiltrating and taking hold in our forums.  Nit-picking and nit-witted remarks regarding what the newbies experience is not the answer for this ever-growing feeling of uneasiness really.  In addition, are we all to be at loggerheads with each other because of our ages and differences and, therefore, with the ways we live through these exciting new years with HIV?

I will bow out and quote once again one of the newbies that I enjoy greatly in these forums and say to all of you,  "YOU GO, GIRLS"!

Val
___
___

Edited to correct too many typos, grammar erros and add some missing words

« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 03:35:24 PM by Val »
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline budndallastx

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  • Posts: 463
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 06:34:33 AM »
Val -

Nicely written.  I think you could refer to this as the first "generation gap" in the HIV realm.  The split isn't chronological age but the changes in treatment as the medical sciences evolve the way this disease is treated.    It is going to be interesting to see how even the next set of drug classes further cause changes in the generations.   Being new to this forum, I can't comment on the change in tone but I think everyone shares the same fears of the disease.  Although the pill burden may have decreased, we are each reminded of the seriousness of our condition on a daily basis.  I don't think any of us take it lightly even though the tone may be lighter. 

Tom
Meds since: 11/20/2006
Sustiva / Truvada
12/08/2008 VL:<48 CD4 622 (38%)   
9/8/2008 VL:<48 CD4 573 (30%)
5/2008 VL:<48 CD4 464 (30%)
1/2008  VL: <50  CD4 425(28%)
9/2007   VL: <50  CD4 465 (27%)
6/2007   VL: <50   CD4 443 (26%)
3/2007  VL: <50   CD4 385 (25%)
12/2006 - VL: <50   CD4: 384 (25%)
11/2006 - VL:  22K  CD4: 208 (18%)

Offline koi1

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  • Posts: 713
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 08:41:29 AM »
Yes Val,

And no, death is not out of our minds. You go girl and I talk about those fears and hopes almost on a daily basis. I am no stranger to what it was like. I saw a family member deteriorate with the typical course just a year before HAART. I think sometimes the ideological difference in the belief in spirituality makes it easy to constantly write about death for some people, but not everyone believes in this, and constantly hearing about it becomes hearvy on the newbies. We are not denying the suffering that prededed us, that is not my style. However to constantly discount our experience is profoundly arrogant and non inclusive, which is what we come here for. To be included, supported, and in a very superficial way at worst, connect and sometimes in a very profound way influence each other regardless of the impersonal nature of this medium.

Thank you for your post.


rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline scotttt

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  • Posts: 146
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 09:57:22 AM »
WOW!!!  That was fantastic.  I really don't know what to add because you said it all so well.


Offline woodshere

  • Member
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  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 10:14:12 AM »
Val,
What a wonderful and gentle reminder of the differences between long term survivors and newly diagnosed.  I have said numerous times that what we face today being new to HIV and what you and so many others faced in the 80's and early 90's is almost a completely different albatross.  And rather than point out the differences we should all realize that even with our vastly different experiences we should have a common goal.  That goal should be one of sharing, supporting and working together to continue to move forward in the areas of medical care and reducing the stigma of being HIV+.

Thanks for setting the tone for my day,
Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 10:42:47 AM »
Val,

I think it is nice that you posted this, and it assumes that we all live in a European style of health care system, that insures treatment and therefore long life.  Unfortunately, in the United States of America, health care is a tenuous promise that is only as secure as a hard on in the oval office.  Larry Kramer, where are you when we need you?

Beyond that   I GOT IT, AND WILL REFRAIN FROM POSTING ANYTHING HERE THAT MIGHT INSINUATE THAT THIS TERMINAL ILLNESS IS ONLY THAT BECAUSE WE LIVE WITH BLINDERS FIRMLY IN PLACE.

Bitch Slap acknowledged!

The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline northernguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 10:51:42 AM »
Thanks for the thread Val.  I do think newbies like me need to remember the "oldbies" who were the guinea pigs for treatment.  If it weren't for your experiences, we'd still be on 36 pill a day combos.  I hope that when my time comes I'll respond to the new, simpler therapies.   Only time will tell.

As Moffie points out, meds are only as good as your access to them.   So many times on here I am thankful that I'm in a place where that access is not the struggle that some of our members face.



Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline Ihavehope

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Yes, I'm a cry baby, AND WHAT?
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 10:54:28 AM »
Val.

very nice thread. I give it 2 thumbs up, why? because I know it came from the heart.  :-* I think it is hard for many of us newbies to be told that we are in denial and we do not take this disease as seriously as many others who have lived with this disease for decades. I think it is very hard to believe that anyone who is in "denial" would even come to participate in these forums. I've met with many people around my age who are positive as well who refuse to talk about it and to inform themselves. I can agree that this can be a terminal disease if left untreated and with treatment failure, but for the most part it can be a chronic disease. We must not try to change anyone's perspective of this disease because everyone experiences it differently, so if certain people want to share with us their pain and suffering so be it but lecturing us is totally different. For now, let's live at peace with one another PLEASE.

Al
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline jkinatl2

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  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 10:56:32 AM »
Didn't we create a newly diagnosed forum so that those of us with AIDS-related issues could freely converse without unduly impacting the "newbies?" Or do we need another forum for people with death and disability issues?

With apologies to the thread, I sort of read this as a bitch slap to Moffie as well.

I do not want to cause problems with the newly diagnosed and asymptomatic. And I had anticipated that creating a whole forum for those individuals would allow this forum to remain relatively open to the gamut of this illness. Sadly, it seems that this is not the case.

Its sad that there doesn't seem to be a place where people in pain, who are suffering from a terminal illness, can vent, discuss, and offer encouragement.

But that is how I feel, and why I have curtailed my participation in this forum. I will keep my unsightly sickness and death to myself, and my blogs.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Dragonette

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  • Spring symptoms
    • NotPerfectAtAll
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 10:59:59 AM »
I don't know if I can be categorized as a newbie (diagnosed a year ago, once a day regimen) or oldie (10 years poz, infected probabaly through healthcare ignorance, having to deal with questions such as "can HIV pass through sharing the same toilet" where I am from and where my boyfriend is from).

I don't know if I am privileged (treated in the EU, open about my status to many people and not suffering discrimination) or hanging by a thread (temporary insurance, cancellation of home country's insurance due to my absence, strong stigmitazation in home country making the thought of return unbearable, and only today, an email from the head of my workplace insinuating that he wants answers and fast about my "mystery illness" - I have to think hard and quick if I want to disclose to him as well and what that will mean for my employment/treatment prospects).

But I do know one thing for sure, without people like Moffie, I would not be alive today. Their continuous plight has a profound effect. It filters into other countries, that watch what goes on in the States, and impacts descisions made there. It started an iterative chain reaction that spans the globe as we speak. In fact, it enabled this forum.

So, I am indebted.
Sincerely,
"If you keep one foot in yesterday, and one in tomorrow, you piss all over today". Betty Tacy

Offline Moffie65

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 11:01:01 AM »
Al,

"For now, let's live at peace with one another PLEASE."

HERE HERE!

And that will be sucessful if done on your terms and yours alone!!!!

Geez Jonathan, you read my mind ........  to the letter!

The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,318
  • His name is Carl.
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 11:02:09 AM »
At only a little over two years since diagnosis, I guess I still qualify as a newbie on the block.  This newbie, however, is not afraid to read about death or opportunistic infections.  I can handle warnings to be ever wary of funding cuts, complications or regimen failures.  I'm also ever ready to jump in the fray to talk about YouTube, porno or toilet humor.  I embrace the revelry, yes.  What I am afraid of is creating an environment where people feel hesitant to bring whatever they need to the table- the best and the worst.  Dismissiveness can run both ways, and if we permit it in either direction, we fail.  
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Ihavehope

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Yes, I'm a cry baby, AND WHAT?
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 11:03:47 AM »
Didn't we create a newly diagnosed forum so that those of us with AIDS-related issues could freely converse without unduly impacting the "newbies?" Or do we need another forum for people with death and disability issues?

With apologies to the thread, I sort of read this as a bitch slap to Moffie as well.

I do not want to cause problems with the newly diagnosed and asymptomatic. And I had anticipated that creating a whole forum for those individuals would allow this forum to remain relatively open to the gamut of this illness. Sadly, it seems that this is not the case.

Its sad that there doesn't seem to be a place where people in pain, who are suffering from a terminal illness, can vent, discuss, and offer encouragement.

But that is how I feel, and why I have curtailed my participation in this forum. I will keep my unsightly sickness and death to myself, and my blogs.



wow, no one is insinuiating that Jonathon. If you read through the threads in the "living with HIV" tons of threads have been written about very serious issues such as death and very severe illness and many members have given them support including newbies.

I didn't know you had to spend your time only in the "newly diagnosed" if you are a newbie, does that mean you are gonna tell all the women to stay in their new forum of "positive women". Will you Jonathon?
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline koi1

  • Member
  • Posts: 713
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 11:05:39 AM »
Oh Moffie,

I was just reading your blog and agreeing with a lot of what you have written. It was never my intention to discount the value of your experience, and I don't want my Harley neighbor to shoot you nor my sweeties to beat you up.  :D I think that you are a nice old man, but perhaps feel frustrated because you see our healthcare system collapsing before your eyes. The truth is that it is not only people with HIV who are suffering because of a vastly inadequate healthcare system, but anyone who is now uninsured.

Lashing out at people who don't see that the sky is falling does little to further your cause. I am not a privileged person by any means. I work hard for the little that I have, and agree that not everyone has access to the care they need. I have seen it in my life as a teacher, and as someone who has done volunteer work. When my loved one died, I saw him struggling to get care at the county hospital and took him there myself along with my boyfriend and fought for him. Treatment is infinitely better than when I first encountered this disease personally.

I also saw someone in my German class suffer, and eventually went to his funeral, though he was just a friend I had a chance to get to know him, how he traveled to europe for the latest treatments, how he still died. I reiterate that I am no stranger to death by HIV.

We cannot discount the progress that has been made. I live in California where healthcare might be better, even for the uninsured. I just think that discounting the progress that has been made for all of us newbies and oldies is not productive. How can we make it better for all? That is the question.
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline sweetasmeli

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  • Love what you are...
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2007, 11:11:13 AM »
I am barely past the first paragraph and I'm thinking ---le sigh--- "This is a sideways bitch slap at Tim...". 
Not nice.

Just saying.

And still reading...

Melia 8)
/\___/\       /\__/\
(=' . '=)    (=' . '=)
(,,,_ ,,,)/   (,,,_ ,,,)/ Cats rule!

The difference between cats and dogs is that dogs come when called, whereas cats take a message and get back to you.

Yeia kai hara (health and happiness) to everyone!

Offline jkinatl2

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  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 11:14:10 AM »
wow, no one is insinuiating that Jonathon. If you read through the threads in the "living with HIV" tons of threads have been written about very serious issues such as death and very severe illness and many members have given them support including newbies.

I didn't know you had to spend your time only in the "newly diagnosed" if you are a newbie, does that mean you are gonna tell all the women to stay in their new forum of "positive women". Will you Jonathon?

No, I will not. But if a woman complains about the issues raised by gay men in this part of the forum, I would certainly direct them to the women's section.

Same with the asymptomatic and newly diagnosed. And I wholeheartedly disagree that this is not a pattern of ongoing ostricization.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline ademas

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  • Posts: 1,151
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 11:15:29 AM »
I am barely past the first paragraph and I'm thinking ---le sigh--- "This is a sideways bitch slap at Tim...". 
Not nice.

Just saying.

And still reading...

Melia 8)

ditto.
too bad, because there are some good thoughts between the digs,
but the digs sort of take the wind-out-of-the-sail for me.

Offline Ihavehope

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  • Posts: 1,366
  • Yes, I'm a cry baby, AND WHAT?
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 11:16:20 AM »
No, I will not. But if a woman complains about the issues raised by gay men in this part of the forum, I would certainly direct them to the women's section.

Same with the asymptomatic and newly diagnosed. And I wholeheartedly disagree that this is not a pattern of ongoing ostricization.



Cool. I have Jonathon's permission to stay because I am not complaining just giving my opinion.
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Dachshund

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2007, 11:17:45 AM »
I am going to call it as I see it, this is just another in many not so transparent slaps at another forum member in the guise of a sincere topic. The sympathetic Greek Chorus can praise it to the heavens all they want, we all know the motive...you can skirt the rules but you can't disguise the message.


Offline koi1

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  • Posts: 713
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2007, 11:18:52 AM »
Jonathan,

I loved your blog about what you were going through and felt for you. I still do. Nobody has ever implied that you nor anyone should hide what you are going through. But the constant discouragement from a limited few is what the issue is. Telling people that their optimistic prognosis is denial, is cruel. Would I have told my brother in law that I feared he would die in his bleakest moment. Hell no. Why is it okay to tell people that here? We a disease that is now for most treatable, even if you have had it for 23 years. Is it a walk in the park, no. I am not saying that. I have posted lots on my health and I almost died this last year were it not for a simple little antibiotic that almost killed me in its own right. Yes it is a struggle, yes there is hope.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline Ihavehope

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Yes, I'm a cry baby, AND WHAT?
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2007, 11:19:18 AM »
Oldies and Newbies, please let's just kiss and make up

Okaaayyyyy?

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 05:22:23 PM by Ihavehope »
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2007, 11:28:59 AM »
Jonathan,

I loved your blog about what you were going through and felt for you. I still do. Nobody has ever implied that you nor anyone should hide what you are going through. But the constant discouragement from a limited few is what the issue is. Telling people that their optimistic prognosis is denial, is cruel. Would I have told my brother in law that I feared he would die in his bleakest moment. Hell no. Why is it okay to tell people that here? We a disease that is now for most treatable, even if you have had it for 23 years. Is it a walk in the park, no. I am not saying that. I have posted lots on my health and I almost died this last year were it not for a simple little antibiotic that almost killed me in its own right. Yes it is a struggle, yes there is hope.

rob

I do appreciate your kind words. And I have written countless times that blind despair is just as rooted in irrational assumption as blind optimism.

But wouldn't it be awfully generous if we recognized that some people on the forum are grappling with daily excruciating pain? That they are seeing a collapse in our healthcare system and no longer have the strength to fight it? That they are indeed dying from AIDS?

I'm not saying give anyone a pass to be a jerk. Being mean is inexcuseable, even if it has a valid explanation.

If someone is totally inappropriate, I would think that their posts would be reported to the moderators. And that anyone has the responsibility to do so, as well as utilize the "ignore" function for those posters who conflict with a person's choice of paradigm.

I just think it's very sad that healthy people have nothing better to do than tell sick people to reign it in. And that's the message I have recieved here, especially from the snide comments (not from you).

It's great to have hope.

Better, I think, to have compassion.





"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2007, 11:29:11 AM »
K, using a phrase to describe Moffie as "a nice old man" sounds awfully patronizing to me and hardly the sort of thing that is going to make the object of such a remark open to dialogue with you. Think about it. How would you feel being the recepient of a comment like that? You'd love it, right? I don't think so.

As a general observation about this thread, it struck me from its inception that by categorizing people as newbies and oldies it automatically creates a setting for conflict rather than understanding and mutual respect. And "us" and "them" situation. Very unfortunate because speaking from either point of view seems so easily to create an (unnecessary) obstacle to understanding which might otherwise not exist.

After all, an essential part why this site was founded was for the for mutual  sharing and support among people who as individuals are (wonderfully) diverse.

Andy Velez

Offline scotttt

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2007, 11:29:22 AM »
Jeez Louise!!!

How dare Val speak his mind.?!?!?  The nerve to disagree with a sacred cow.  The audacity.

Val, your post was beautifully written.  You expressed a viewpoint that went against the grain, and have shown bravery, knowing the ensuing feeding frenzy that would follow.

You go girl!!

Offline scotttt

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2007, 11:32:30 AM »
Forgive me Andy, but Tim did suggest yesterday that his "sweetie" throw us to his gun toting biker neighbor for target practice, and you ignored that one.  Now calling him an "old" person is insulting.  This I am afraid, is a prime example is the unequal treatment shown by the moderators, that I have seen, as I speak only for my self, and do so at my own risk.

Respectfully,

Scott

For the record, I recall Moffie referring to himself as an old man.  When did old become a pejorative???


Offline jkinatl2

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2007, 11:32:44 AM »
Jeez Louise!!!

How dare Val speak his mind.?!?!?  The nerve to disagree with a sacred cow.  The audacity.

Val, your post was beautifully written.  You expressed a viewpoint that went against the grain, and have shown bravery, knowing the ensuing feeding frenzy that would follow.

You go girl!!

the nerve to criticize a sacred cow?

So you saw it as an attack on Moffie as well. You simply liked it and agree with it.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline scotttt

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2007, 11:38:43 AM »
The crux of the issue is and was from my first post, that I don't like being told that I am going to die from this disease, when it may or may not be the case. That was all. This is a website for support and encouragement, last time I checked. I meant nothing by the nice old man comment as Moffie has referred to himself as that many times. I am 36, no spring chicken. I wrote what I though was constructive post and I guess I failed.

rob
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 11:41:09 AM by scotttt »

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2007, 11:38:53 AM »
Forgive me Andy, but Tim did suggest yesterday that his "sweetie" throw us to his gun toting biker neighbor for target practice, and you ignored that one.  Now calling him an "old" person is insulting.  This I am afraid, is a prime example is the unequal treatment shown by the moderators, that I have seen, as I speak only for my self, and do so at my own risk.

Respectfully,

Scott

For the record, I recall Moffie referring to himself as an old man.  When did old become a pejorative???



I recall that too Andy...
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline woodshere

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2007, 11:40:25 AM »
Unfortunately this is headed no where fast.  
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline RapidRod

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2007, 11:49:28 AM »
Tim, just ignore the comments. Kids these days are just fucking rude. They don't think before they speak. Just ignore them, they didn't have to fight to get the medications that are available today. They take it for granted. In the two years I've been here at AidsMeds have I never seen it stoop as low as it has gotten. It's ashame, because at one time this was an excellent forum and one of the best on the web and it far from being that today.

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2007, 11:55:54 AM »
* edited (i was yelled at for posting a pic)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 05:22:04 PM by Ihavehope »
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline scotttt

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2007, 11:59:51 AM »
Tim, just ignore the comments. Kids these days are just fucking rude. They don't think before they speak. Just ignore them, they didn't have to fight to get the medications that are available today. They take it for granted. In the two years I've been here at AidsMeds have I never seen it stoop as low as it has gotten. It's ashame, because at one time this was an excellent forum and one of the best on the web and it far from being that today.

Nothing is as rude as telling people who have an optimistic perspective about their medical prognosis that they are in denial.

Imagine going to a cancer ward, and telling people receiving chemotherapy that their hope in treatment is merely denial.

How are those living with HIV any less deserving of this consideration?

Offline Ody

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2007, 12:15:19 PM »
Thanks for the thread! Although I see some slapping (and we all need a good slap from time to time), it hits the nail on the head and drives it home! We do have a generational gap, which as an oldbie, I am saddened and rejoice!

Saddened by the facts, us oldbies could have completely prevented all new infections.

In many cases, I find newbies less than willing to partake in the continued struggle to retain the access to funding and programs that have helped us come to the point we have and a failure to join in the fight to regain what we have lost, not to mention the funding that needs to be added to insure everyone has the ability to get the assistance/medicines they need. Quoting something I was told about 3 months ago in an HIV/AIDS chat room, "the end is near, their taking all the money away, we won't  be able to get our drugs, fight fight, they have been screaming this for years and every time Ryan White comes up for review it is approved. You are obviously new and buying into the old farts panic attacks".(this person and his supporters didn't even know Ryan White was a real  little boy that lost his war, they thought it was the name of some senator or congress person!)I believe I will take that with me forever, sometimes it makes me laugh, but it rest heavy on my heart!

I re-joyous in the fact that everything we went through, experiments we partook in, hours sitting on the toilet from over dosing of drug (remember AZT's first round-12 pills every 4 hours?) and all the other horrible thing, today allow others not to have to go through that! We knew we where the ginnie pigs, took that upon ourselves, and where willing to donate body parts, in order and hope that our lives would in fact one day save/extend a life. We did it!

We stood up to the powers that be, so someone could afford those drugs. Remember when President Regan wouldn't even say or reconize HIV/AIDS? We prolonged some lives! Now, well, where are we? OLDER yet, still here to share the history and still fighting for a future. Tired, worn out, drug through the mud, but still here.

We must all learn from each other! I admit, some newbies to the virus are naive to the past, present and future, yet are valuable and can shed some new light on things. They are the future, must and will pick up the fight. I can only hope that they pick up on it before history repeats itself.

Regardless of personal opinion conflicts, one thing that is total clear and remains a truth,
Together we stand, Together we fight, Together we LIVE! Divided we fall, loose, and die. (hmm, almost sounds like something a few in charge would love to see!)


Take a deep breath and forgive yourself, no since in you making it harder, that's someone else's job and you know they are more qualified, just ask um!

Offline Robert

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2007, 12:16:27 PM »
Val.

I know English is not your primary language but you do have a wonderful way with our idioms, syntax etc.  I just love this: 

"...and with this feeling in mind, I would rather refrain from raining on their parade unless I expect them to pee on my  "death parade"!

Next time someone tells me I'm raining on their parade I'm going to tell them they can piss on my grave!

robert

(who really does feel compassion and hope truly reign supreme here at the forums)
..........

Offline woodshere

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2007, 12:29:15 PM »
ODY, WHAT A WONDERFUL POST!!

Those of us who are newly diagnosed must never take for granted what you and so many others went through to get us where we are today.  While our experiences are different we must all continue the fight.  When I do volunteer work with local AIDS organizations it is not new blood volunteering, but those who have weathered countless storms.  It is incumbent upon newly diagnosed not to become complacent or things could return to the way they once were.  We must continue to press for more research, more accessibility to services and health care and more government funding.  We need to appreciate what each of us brings to the table or we are doomed to fail.

Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline koi1

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2007, 12:33:07 PM »
Exactly Woods,

Well said.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2007, 12:48:21 PM »
Scott and I Have,

FYI an entry of mine from that other thread yesterday:

"Moffie, you're right, mean is mean.

And we're not sitting in a living room. Face to face can sometimes prevent the kind of misunderstandings that occur here. Also, saying what your partner would do to people for their comments here is taking/making another op to slam at someone. Stop! No more, please.

Hit me over the head for this, but I am going to say this to you, and in fact to everyone here. That awesome effort you put into getting on with your life in spite of all the challenges to your health and otherwise, I'm asking you to put some part of that into NOT HOLDING ON TO AND NURSING grudges and insults, real or perceived. Don't make me start doing more than warning here. But this stuff really has to stop."   

                                                           ...........

Later yesterday I was re-reading the thread and realized I had inadvertently left out something I wanted to say to Moffie. I thought the"living room" passage was out of line and ammended to the above.

For what it's worth I calls them as I sees them, which I know is what other moderators aim to do as well. It's ironic how often some members who are sometimes identified as "favorites" get pissed at us for showing favoritism towards others. I guess it just comes with the territory so just take my comment as a report and not a complaint.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline puertorico2006

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2007, 01:49:43 PM »
i find that the people on the "I just tested positive" section are not of the same mindset of the people that you are calling "newbies" the people on the newly diagnosed section are in shock, traumatized, and scared (as we all are when we first find out). They need support which is why it exists, but then you realize that the reality is that things are much better than they were and you get the "newbie" outlook and realize everything will be ok if you take care of yourself and you have access to good healthcare.....

If you listen to the "oldbies" that post in that section and the "newbies" they have different tones, and thats ok because each person takes advice differently and they can choose which mentality works best for them....

I always appreciate advice and support from everyone no matter how long they have lived with the disease (because the truth is it is a bitch and we all go through out "moments" where it affects us more)....but when im not in one of those "moments" i prefer to live on my little cloud and be happy (not denial just optimistic)....

Love all you guys New(bies) or olbies  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
Infected Probably: may 2005
Diagnosed: 11/2006

11/28/2006 CD4:309 / VL: 1907 No meds yet
12/27/2006 CD4:339/  VL:1649 No meds yet
  4/28/2007 CD4:550/  VL:1800 No meds :-)

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2007, 01:52:10 PM »
i find that the people on the "I just tested positive" section are not of the same mindset of the people that you are calling "newbies" the people on the newly diagnosed section are in shock, traumatized, and scared (as we all are when we first find out). They need support which is why it exists, but then you realize that the reality is that things are much better than they were and you get the "newbie" outlook and realize everything will be ok if you take care of yourself and you have access to good healthcare.....

If you listen to the "oldbies" that post in that section and the "newbies" they have different tones, and thats ok because each person takes advice differently and they can choose which mentality works best for them....

I always appreciate advice and support from everyone no matter how long they have lived with the disease (because the truth is it is a bitch and we all go through out "moments" where it affects us more)....but when im not in one of those "moments" i prefer to live on my little cloud and be happy (not denial just optimistic)....

Love all you guys New(bies) or olbies  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

Well said Mr. PuertoRico

I love you too.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 05:21:10 PM by Ihavehope »
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline thunter34

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2007, 01:56:14 PM »
I agree with Josh on that one:  I always took the "I Just Tested Poz" forum to be for those in the immediate HOLY SHIT phase, not so much folks who have had the diagnosis for awhile.  At what point does the "recent" / "newbie" / "just" expire?  Just wondering.  It may the last place this aging hen can grasp a "spring chicken" designation.   ;D
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2007, 02:10:19 PM »
I agree with Josh on that one:  I always took the "I Just Tested Poz" forum to be for those in the immediate HOLY SHIT phase, not so much folks who have had the diagnosis for awhile.  At what point does the "recent" / "newbie" / "just" expire?  Just wondering.  It may the last place this aging hen can grasp a "spring chicken" designation.   ;D

Don't you worry muffin...you will always be a chicken to this over-the-hill hawk. ;)

Offline thunter34

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2007, 02:14:09 PM »
Don't you worry muffin...you will always be a chicken to this over-the-hill hawk. ;)

I've also been told my eggs are top-shelf.  Just ask Matty.   ;D
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2007, 02:19:57 PM »
*
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 05:21:29 PM by Ihavehope »
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline budndallastx

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2007, 02:35:27 PM »
Quote
It may the last place this aging hen can grasp a "spring chicken" designation.   

Many words can be used to describe you but "aging hen" are not among them.

Meds since: 11/20/2006
Sustiva / Truvada
12/08/2008 VL:<48 CD4 622 (38%)   
9/8/2008 VL:<48 CD4 573 (30%)
5/2008 VL:<48 CD4 464 (30%)
1/2008  VL: <50  CD4 425(28%)
9/2007   VL: <50  CD4 465 (27%)
6/2007   VL: <50   CD4 443 (26%)
3/2007  VL: <50   CD4 385 (25%)
12/2006 - VL: <50   CD4: 384 (25%)
11/2006 - VL:  22K  CD4: 208 (18%)

Offline milker

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2007, 03:03:28 PM »
There are different stages that we're in. The "omg omg am I going to be infected", the "jesus fucking christ no that can't happen to me", then either a state of hilarity like me and Aupoint, or a serious confrontation with what the future will be, then the meds, then the OIs etc.. We already have forums for each of those stages, except maybe for the serious OIs.

To me, the "oldies" bring me their experience, their pain, their difficulties, whether it's to do with physical problems, money issues, etc etc.. I read them and this is getting educating me in some way, preparing me for when "it's not funny anymore". I can certainly understand that people that have had to live with 48 pills a day regard the "newbies" having access to therapy with one pill a day as having to deal with this disease in a "easier" way. Also, it is clear to me that they have had the death sentence hanging over their head right from the beginning, whereas us newbies can consider having a chance to escape it.

I know the "oldies" will be here for me when I have questions about meds, symptoms, OIs, etc. It's their experience that I need. They should also know that it's not because my life is "easier" that I can't understand their pain and suffering. Compassion and understand have nothing to do with age.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline allopathicholistic

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2007, 03:07:59 PM »
I know the "oldies" will be here for me when I have questions about meds, symptoms, OIs, etc. It's their experience that I need.

Hear hear!

I would add to that list: ADAP, Medicaid, SSDI disability, activism, the skinny on big pharma and things of that nature

Newbies could answer my questions too but clearly in some cases it would be the blind leading the blind
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 03:16:20 PM by allopathicholistic »

Offline GSOgymrat

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2007, 03:40:45 PM »
Aren't young people supposed to be optimistic and feel invincible? If someone newly infected says "I'm going to be okay. HIV is a manageable condition. I just have to take my meds and I can live a normal life" who am I to say they won't? HIV erodes hope, it erodes belief in the future and I'm not going to contribute to that by bursting their bubble. I also don't see optimism and progress as a dig against people who are struggling, who have struggled or who have died from HIV. Similarly the newly infected need to appreciate that many people on here are disabled, can't afford healthcare, have chronic pain, lipoatrophy, clinical depression and a whole laundry list of problems related to HIV. We can get cranky.

We don't need separate forums for "newbies" and "oldies" or the asymptomatic and symptomatic. I think this forum should be about sharing our stories, good and bad, and offering support, advice and respect with a little fun and levity.

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2007, 03:58:23 PM »
Aren't young people supposed to be optimistic and feel invincible? If someone newly infected says "I'm going to be okay. HIV is a manageable condition. I just have to take my meds and I can live a normal life" who am I to say they won't? HIV erodes hope, it erodes belief in the future and I'm not going to contribute to that by bursting their bubble. I also don't see optimism and progress as a dig against people who are struggling, who have struggled or who have died from HIV. Similarly the newly infected need to appreciate that many people on here are disabled, can't afford healthcare, have chronic pain, lipoatrophy, clinical depression and a whole laundry list of problems related to HIV. We can get cranky.

We don't need separate forums for "newbies" and "oldies" or the asymptomatic and symptomatic. I think this forum should be about sharing our stories, good and bad, and offering support, advice and respect with a little fun and levity.

Thank you GSO. Thank you for not making us feel guilty for being young and hopeful.

Al
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline Val

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Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2007, 04:26:44 PM »
I am going to call it as I see it, this is just another in many not so transparent slaps at another forum member in the guise of a sincere topic. The sympathetic Greek Chorus can praise it to the heavens all they want, we all know the motive...you can skirt the rules but you can't disguise the message.



I will not get into any details about this post, but would like only to affirm that I  will expect this and much more from one of the active members of the clique I was referring to.  What you all do need to be aware, though, and please this is serious,  is that your cliquish behaviour and bullyingin these forums have allienated several members.  Do you frankly realize this?  People who were having a hard time  with this disease told me they cried and spent miserable hours/days because of your funny ( funny just for your clique, of course) and more than sarcastic remarks?  Is this plain-spoken or do I need to make a little drawing for you all to understand?  Please!

I am addressing a growing problem in this post and am fully aware that Moffie will be concerned.  However, he was not the only one!  There have been several threads discussing the subject and none really came to a valid conclusion.  It is high time to stop it.  Unless you all choose to ignore the problem and continue fighting each other!

Val
___
___
P.S. As for the little games that your clique is used to play, called Netiquette, I won't give in to that.  However, the day I do you'd be surprised how well I can play!   Besides, I am quoting you just as an example, since your opinion (for all the clique, by the way) does not really count "for me".   It is biased from the beginning!  The day you start behaving as strong and independent adults,  I will consider paying attention to your moanings and "états d'âme".
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Andy Velez

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 25,209
Re: The New(bies) Kids on the Block
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2007, 04:43:20 PM »
Val, please stop with these veiled references to cliques.

It's still just flaming no matter how you dress it up with words.

So lay off of it right now.
Andy Velez

 


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