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Author Topic: Is Kissing Dangerous?  (Read 14177 times)

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Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2007, 12:11:09 AM »

ted haggert and being caught

OK I publicly acknowledge that I love you now more than ever.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Bucko

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    • The Spin Cycle
Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2007, 01:16:34 AM »
AtomicA- fab post, doll. It's what I'd have written if I hadn't been pressed for work and all. Thank you, again, for taking the (better) words right out of my mouth.

Everyone does understand that allusions to Theda Bara mean that my ironystick is set on stun, right?

If only the rules weren't so heavily enforced, I'd say what I really think about Edfu and the direction he's taken this thread. But I can edit my rage to shaking-teacup level and say this:

Benj is a wise soul wrapped up in a precocious bundle of energy and vitality. He is fluent in nearly every byway of obscure reference I can throw at him and tosses a few new ones at me daily (no easy feat). If he coats his tongue in sarcasm it's because that's his nature, which is as astonishingly like looking into a twenty-five year old mirror for me. Misread him at your peril, dear. Your bitterness is exceedingly unfabulous.

I can match you funeral to funeral, memorial services included. I've buried as much love and support, and at a more tender age. Suggesting that his humor has no place in what is, frankly, a laughable postulation of collaboration and impossible thesis of abstinence seems unnecessarily grim, doll.And your dismissal of his experience in misery as being ultimately unworthy of comparison is so very sad. Must we really line up our suffering and construct a grief-gap around here?

Your treatment of Tim is equally unwise and reeks of an appalling bitterness. But spending so much time in celebacy seems to have rid you of compassion and empathy as well.

There is a chasm of difference between guilt and fear. Fear prevents one from living at all, guilt prevents one from trying anything fun again. Fear is biological, guilt is a learned response to the harsh judgements of others.

Brent
(Who is shemsu hor)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2007, 03:29:12 AM »
I confess to being deeply honored by being so roundly castigated and put in my place by someone I now realize authors a blog entitled "Titpig's Adventures in Barebacking," where one can find a veritable bible of lessons in compassion and empathy.  I humbly bow my head in remorse at the bitterness that has truly overcome me.   
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Bucko

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2007, 04:35:31 AM »
If you had read any part of it you'd have seen how erroneous such assumptions can be, Eddie. I have tremendous empathy for my sexual partners and am deeply compassionate with them. In fact, I can quote a bit here which illustrates a fraction of my affection:

In the hours I spent on-line, several profiles intrigued me, but I’d always resisted contacting them because the true dynamic of such encounters made me slightly uneasy. Principal among these were guys looking to play more intensely submissive roles than I’d customarily considered. I’ve always preferred a more active participant, someone who brought their full power of wit and enthusiasm to bed, and had always considered submissive and passive to be synonymous.

As much as you'd care to see me as something I'm not, I clearly see you as a misanthrope. Anyone who would honestly claim that kissing leads to KS (and should therefore be avoided) cares little for humanity beyond those for whom the libido has been mothballed. I pursue a more active and continuing role in society. And yes, I'm empathetic, compassionate, committed to understanding those around me (and myself) better through all kinds of social intercourse, most especially the types that involve the maximum exchange of body fluids.

If your memory is as clear as your disdain, you might remember such things, how they felt and the rewards they brought you. I'm still involved and vital and make no apologies in that regard.

Brent
(Who lives and dies by the sword of truth)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Bucko

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2007, 04:47:38 AM »
And since you brought it up, the blog's called The Spin Cycle, and I am a senior contributor and co-founder. We have published insightful and provocative articles since July 2005 and have a loyal fan base.

The name of the article you saw is called "Deep Inside Mancunt, or Titpig's Adventures in Barebacking Part 7: The Brazilian Bowelwash (Part 1)".

Part 2 will be have the added title: "One Leaks, the Other Doesn't". It's a pun on the title of an old lesbian film from the 70s.


 :-*
Bucko the Depraved
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2007, 06:56:33 AM »
I find it interesting that Edfu came up with this posting and the reference articles to spur conversation.  First off, I didn't realize he was a peer, and secondly, I found his stated "Choice" of celebacy, one of consious action in dealing with a virus none of us knew anything about.  I will not judge him in any way for the decisions he might have made, as many of us have at one time or another been faced with such decisions. 

For myself, I was a tad bit less restrictive in my personal habits in the early days, and was far more tempted to go to a nice "pee party" than to stay at home and keep away from all sexual contact.  I suppose one should not judge others for their decisions, made so many years in the past, based on so little information; at least comparred to what is available today. 

Other than that, I have also suffered the disease of red spots and the attendant worry about what is now going on and will I survive this.  It isn't really pretty, but in this sanitized format of an online conversation that is completely disconnected from anything really physical or anything "real"; we need to remember that sometimes we say and donate things here that strike a particularly doubous note to the reader.  That is the main reason that I constantly advocate for people to think a bit before letting the keystrokes fly.  Before this thread, I never had a clue as to Edfu's age or experience, so while some of you find his postulations a bit annoying, I found a plethora of information that brought me some peace in that this man was a kindred spirit, walking in another parallel universe to mine.  How amazing is that?

I understand that emotions can get a bit heated here, and I also realize that with the group in this thread, there is not one bit of intellect lacking at all.  I would love to see a conversation like this with all the attendant contributors in one room in real time.  I bet a lot of money, that we would find a load of interesting people that have a some very interesting views on many things.  Unfortunately, those of us that have a few more years under our belts, also have a disadvantage of using this medium to it's fullest advantage.  Therefore, I think we should all agree that in fact Benj has his valid views of our handling of this pandemic, as well as Edfu's views of how he handled the things he has been through. 

All I know is that this disease is one that will be throwing us curves for many years to come, and those of us who have been living with it's attendant uncertainty and it's actual horrors; will at times have to keep our selves quiet and make every attempt to avoid un-necessary spats over what has become a very personal experience to us.  Living with this disease for 24 years or so, and having passed the dredded age of 60, presents one with issues far beyond the impact of a kiss from someone with KS.  No, I am afraid that not one of you has even begun to really face the reality of this disease, until you are sitting all alone in your home and ask one of those stupid but vexing questions; "Just how long am I going to try to live and deal with this disease?"  Yes guys, there are far more vexing questions in your future, but in the meantime, I say go ahead and buy the industrial size roll of siran wrap from Costco, have your fun with it, and still keep in mind that your experience with HIV and how you deal with it is strictly yours and nobody elses'.  I have been reminded here on more than one occasion that my views on how I deal with this disease are mine and mine alone.  Often times, there is little or no sympathy for my views, yet in my life, my decisions are paramount to my survival and my good health.

What does this post mean?   Shit, I don't know, but I do know that I see here a bit of a bashing of someone who really didn't deserve it.  Shit, I should just delete this whole thing before I even re-read it, but after reading the whole thread, I was torn to bits; feeling a bit of sorrow for Edfu for being the brunt of some statements that were un-necessary, and those comments from Benj, Brent, and Tim.  All of whom I have a huge amount of respect for.  Unfortunately guys, we sometimes screw up here and pick on people that really don't deserve it.  After all, did any of you know Edfu was 64 when you started to read this thread.  I sure didn't, and in person, I never discount the experiences or words of a person of that age, unless of course they are totally not worthy.  I think Edfu and his views, experiences, and observations are totally worthy.  Unfortunately, I also think some of the snide and comical remarks are also worthy, but unfortunately, this medium compeltely strips any humanity from the language.

Nuff Said,

Love,
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Online bocker3

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2007, 07:11:39 AM »
I find it funny that in other posts, there are people who castigate others for not putting more weight on scientific studies than on anecdotes, yet here someone is being attacked for asking a question stemming from something read in a scientific journal.

I do not believe that anyone has said that we should all stop kissing.  I, for one, have no intention of doing so.  I’m sure that, if HHV-8 is transmitted via kissing, that I have already acquired it.  I am also sure that it takes something else (probably a number of something else’s) for HHV-8 to manifest as KS, so I’m not going to PERSONALLY worry much about it.

What I’m seeing a lot of lately is people being attacked for their thoughts, fears and feelings.  Yes, I agree that people shouldn’t try and make their grief seem bigger than someone else’s grief.  However these personal attacks are unlikely to change anyone’s mind and will likely have the opposite effect.  So, let’s all try to take personal attacks out and debate subjects -- to quote an old show that I’m not sure I actually liked much when it was on, “Just the facts, ma’am, just the facts.”

Mike

One last thing – if we are so concerned that society equates gay sexuality with guilt (I agree with this and think it is a shame), why, oh why, are we trying to make someone feel guilty for choosing to be celibate??   Make no mistake – the mocking comments that I’ve read here are trying to do just that!
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
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Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline keyite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2007, 07:16:26 AM »
I find it funny that in other posts, there are people who castigate others for not putting more weight on scientific studies than on anecdotes, yet here someone is being attacked for asking a question stemming from something read in a scientific journal.

The irony wasn't lost on me either...

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2007, 01:04:59 PM »
 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)


My only beef was in tone taken from the original poster toward myself and other posters here.  I fully appreciate that this is something that is originating form a scientific journal- not just from tales others are telling.

As for the KS / kissing relationship, I fully intend to ask my doctor more about that on my next visit.  Not a snowflake's chance in Hades that I'm ever gonna give up smooching, though.  I'd rather die...plain and simple.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2007, 01:09:18 PM »
Not a snowflake's chance in Hades that I'm ever gonna give up smooching, though.  I'd rather die...plain and simple.

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
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Offline keyite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2007, 01:20:10 PM »
My only beef was in tone taken from the original poster toward myself and other posters here. 

Sure. Entirely unprovoked it was too.

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2007, 01:25:30 PM »


I love this show!
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2007, 01:33:36 PM »
Sure. Entirely unprovoked it was too.

Yes, it was.  Thank you for getting my back on that one!
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2007, 02:11:31 PM »
OK. Now that attention seems to have switched over from the Oral Risk thread to here, let me again offer a cautioning word about snipping and sniping here.

There's room for a difference of opinions, choices and experiences without becoming proud and haughty (P&H) about it. P&H always pretty much inevitably leads to flaming.

So simmer down, please.   

AC, you're hilarious. And please don't bogart the popcorn. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 02:15:38 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline David_CA

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2007, 04:25:51 PM »
Kissing is only dangerous if you are carrying a gun.

Not quite.  When I was 13 at summer camp, I had to French kiss this girl (imagine that!) in a game of Truth or Dare.  I got my lip caught on her braces.  It hurt like a bitch.  Besides that, people thought we were kissing for longer than the required 10 seconds when, in actuality, I was trying to unhook my lip. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
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02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2007, 04:29:18 PM »
Not quite.  When I was 13 at summer camp, I had to French kiss this girl (imagine that!) in a game of Truth or Dare.  I got my lip caught on her braces.  It hurt like a bitch.  Besides that, people thought we were kissing for longer than the required 10 seconds when, in actuality, I was trying to unhook my lip. 

David

See there!  Oral transmission risks !!!
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2007, 04:38:01 PM »
The irony wasn't lost on me either...

Actually, that's not ironic.

MtD

Offline David_CA

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2007, 04:43:53 PM »
About KS... how common is this today?  I haven't heard of this, except in a few cases, much in years.

As to giving up kissing, well, we can always use dental dams... and condoms for blow jobs, too. 
R I G H T!
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2007, 04:46:15 PM »
Is this the future of intimacy and sex?

[attachment deleted by admin]
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline racingmind

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2007, 04:48:03 PM »
I really need to stop coming on here......it's a breeding ground for hypochondriacs.  
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Offline milker

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2007, 04:54:58 PM »
Those last 2 posts made me spill my drink AGAIN!  :o :o :o

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline scotttt

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2007, 04:58:53 PM »
"About KS... how common is this today?  I haven't heard of this, except in a few cases, much in years. "

It is my understanding that KS cases among gay men are on the rise .  I have been told this by a couple health care workers recently. 

Offline Val

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2007, 05:19:15 PM »
Is this the future of intimacy and sex?

He/she looks like Michael Jackson!  ;D ::)

Val
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Offline Central79

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2007, 07:14:36 PM »
There's room for a difference of opinions, choices and experiences without becoming proud and haughty (P&H) about it. P&H always pretty much inevitably leads to flaming.

I feel disadvantaged - as a Brit, I would please like a P+H handicap?

I find the different approaches people take to risk pretty fascinating. You've got to look at the chances of it happening, the consequences of it happening and how much you want to persue the behaviour that involves the risk. I like cycling my bike in central London without a helmet. Although the risk of being run over is small, the consequences could be severe - but I really love the wind in my hair... (think girls bike. Big basket. Tampon ad).

Looking on the net, the prevalance of HHV8 even in HIV+ homos is only 29%. For poz women it's only 6%. For poz hetro men it's 13%. So it's obviously not all that transmissable by kissing (or anything else), otherwise we'd all have it.

Risk factors for human herpesvirus 8 seropositivity in the AIDS Cancer Cohort Study.
J Clin Virol. 2006 Apr;35(4):442-9. Epub 2006 Jan 18.


Now let's look at the consequences. You're HIV positive, and you've got HHV8 - the only thing that's going to protect you is a decent CD4 count. Okay, some people get KS with a CD4 of 600 but this is not usual. HAART in itself stops KS in HIV+ people. Like it did for Edfu.

And if it doesn't there's radiotherapy and chemo, which are both pretty good in this disease. It's not nice to go through, but the chances of cure are high. The other thing is that the incidence of KS in people with HIV-1 and HHV8 is about 3.1 cases per 100 years of life. There's a small subgroup of patients at much higher (x10) risk of developing KS, which pulls the average up. But there's a case for screening these people, and intensively managing them.

And if you really, really want to avoid it (you know me, seriously risk-averse!) you have to stop kissing people, which is one of those fundamental human experiences, and a big part of life and intimacy. There's a lot more evidence to suggest it's more readily spread by receptive anal sex. Another good reason to wear condoms even between pozzies.

So I think the risk is small, the consequences manageable, and the behaviour I have to give up impossible to stop doing. After all, we're talking a bit more than the wind through my hair here ;).

M.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2007, 08:13:36 PM »
While not addressing kissing and KS specifically, this thread does make me want to remind forum folks that RevMC's partner, Louie, has had a rather significant battle with KS in recent months.

I don't know...it just seemed to bear mentioning. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2007, 08:16:29 PM »
I'm grateful to Moffie, bocker, and keyite for coming to my defense.  I'm especially overwhelmed by the exceptional kindness and thoughtfulness of Moffie's ever-wise words.  And thanks to AC for the popcorn!

It's simply incorrect to state, as Bucko does, that I claimed "that kissing leads to KS."  I reported and repeated the findings of a peer-reviewed scientific article, to which I linked, that appeared in the prestigious "New England Journal of Medicine"--an article I thought needed more publicity than it had ever received.  The scientists in that article used the words "potential" and "may"; I used the words "highly likely," "may," and "can result."  I should not have said "highly"; "likely" would have been sufficient.  However, "can result" does not = "does result" in my opinion.   For the second time I must also point out the deliberate question mark in my topic title.  Nowhere did I state that anyone must or should stop kissing.  In hindsight, perhaps I should just have presented the article and, like Mike Meyers in an old "Saturday Night Live" skit, said, "Discuss amongst yourselves."  

I still believe the cause of much of the resultant controversy lies in what I previously referred to as the AIDS generation gap.  That is, I am postulating that there is a significant difference in thinking about AIDS--and all the ramifications thereof-- between the generation that was sexually active before 1981 and the generation that became sexually active after 1981.   This gap, however, is actually subsumed under an even larger gap, which I have explored elsewhere and find immensely interesting:  For the first time in history there is an age-defined generation gap in the gay population as a whole that affects all gay issues.  I refer to those who were sexually active pre-Stonewall 1969 and the advent of gay liberation and those who came of age sexually post-1969.  This, however, is a huge subject better covered, perhaps, in the Off Topic forum.  I will only say here that a very large number of those sexually active pre-1969 are no longer with us, for the obvious reasons of natural old age and, of course, AIDS.

Bucko also seems to believe that I am advocating a "thesis of abstinence," which is also untrue.  I revealed my own case history because I felt it became relevant to the discussion as it developed.  I never encouraged anyone to go and do likewise.  The fact that I developed KS at least 19 years after my infection with HIV and HHV-8 is an important fact.  The researchers at the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center certainly felt so.  I have admitted that my road to celibacy was propelled by deep psychological problems and that, to many, it does indeed appear "loony."  I don't understand how any of this can be interpreted as advocacy.  

The rate of KS has indeed declined greatly in recent years, and most doctors and scientists attribute this to HAART, which can even, by itself, put KS into remission and cause the lesions of KS to disappear completely over a period of several years, as has happened in my case.   The connection between HIV and KS can be stated in its simplest form as:  One of the proteins of HIV activates dormant HHV-8, which causes the KS; keep the HIV low, and--in most cases but NOT all, for reasons yet unknown--the HHV-8 causes no symptoms.  

More research on KS is not done for all of the usual reasons, most of which I attribute to homophobia.  Politics, shortage of funds, a wretched medical system, also contribute.  It's the same reason NO research is done on anal microbicides while research on vaginal microbicides creeps along, not nearly fast enough.  It's the same reason no research was done with gay men and human papilloma virus (HPV) and anal cancer, whereas Gardisil has been approved as  a vaccine for HPV and cervical cancer.  You cannot go to your doctor and ask to be tested for HHV-8, because no laboratories perform the test except for specialized laboratories in research settings.  

What is most disturbing to me personally in this thread is Bucko's boast in posting #53 (and what can be found in the essays on the blog he cohosts) that he engages in the "maximum exchange of body fluids."  He has perhaps unwittingly cut to the core of the discussion I hoped to invite, because the "maximum exchange of body fluids" is what causes HIV infection.  The very essence of HIV prevention is the MINIMIZING of the exchange of body fluids. What has been determined and discussed in the past and still needs discussing today are questions like:  Which fluids?  How?  By what mechanism or method?  When?  How often, or always?  And while HHV-8 does not cause HIV infection, it is a serious potential consequence.  Thanks for discussing amongst yourselves.    
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline scotttt

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2007, 08:36:17 PM »
I think we need to clarify that the behaviors Brent/Bucko engages in goes on between consenting HIV positive individuals.  He is an avid serosorter.  I don't think that is clear from the comments regarding his sexual activity as asserted by Edfu. 

That said I do think the information presented by Edfu is very interesting.  I have no objection to such information being disseminated and I think that for the most part we have all shared our opinions in a mature and kind manner.  I think that we might feel a little over whealmed when it is suggested that kissing poses a serious health risk.  It isn't that we are stating that the information is not correct,  we just sometimes grow weary sometimes, that's all.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2007, 09:02:33 PM »
The biggest thing this thread has made me think about isn't saliva or KS, it's what I would perhaps call HIV Trauma.  The psychological impact of witnessing such a high level of death, and how differently people can respond to such an experience. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2007, 09:59:37 PM »
He has perhaps unwittingly cut to the core of the discussion I hoped to invite, because the "maximum exchange of body fluids" is what causes HIV infection.  The very essence of HIV prevention is the MINIMIZING of the exchange of body fluids.

Bucko is an exclusive sero-sorter. HIV transmission within the context of his own sexual practice is not an issue for him.

MtD

Offline bear60

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #79 on: March 27, 2007, 09:20:24 AM »
Quote Tim..."The biggest thing this thread has made me think about isn't saliva or KS, it's what I would perhaps call HIV Trauma.  The psychological impact of witnessing such a high level of death, and how differently people can respond to such an experience.  "
...........................
Thats good Tim. Some people never recover from the shock and trauma of finding out they are HIV positive and watching hundreds of people die. I have been listening to NPR which has had a couple of programs about the psychological problems faced by military combatants....you know...the Post Traumatic Shock Syndrone.....and it sounds a whole lot like what some people here are dealing with.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline mjmel

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #80 on: March 27, 2007, 10:29:37 AM »
Nice post, AtomicA. On that particular sentence, I would say that it's good to have researchers discover those kind of things. But I would then say that it's bad to look at all medical publications and make a general statement from them. Those were from 2000, it's been 7 years already, and I've done some research, I found a few other documents about this since 2000, but nothing alarming.

So I respect edfu for his warning to the community, because we are weakened by the HIV virus and this is something to take into consideration. However, if I was to read all medical publications that are related to human contact and take them for granted I'd just start digging my grave right now, seriously.

Same thing goes with "breakthrough discoveries", step back, relax, read the fine print, wait for the studies, the results. When I see studies that are "extremely promising" and were done with 7 men, 4 on placebo, no women but 120 mice, I can only frown at how this study is being conducted and how serious it is.

Milker.

This is just the most FAVORED post of this thread, IMHO.

Offline Val

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #81 on: March 27, 2007, 04:26:23 PM »
While I do understand Edfu's laudable gesture, position and intentions when posting his article, I also discern over and above  Bucko's rage perfectly well and understand his overall disappointment with this disease (and its  consequences) we all deal with on a daily basis.
Let me try to concentrate and explain how I feel about Bucko's posture throughout this thread.

It seems to me that Bucko  feels more or less the way  I do regarding this issue, in that we are angry and disheartened.  We are beside ourselves and distraught with grief, for just when we thought that it was fine again to have something close to normal sex, we are reminded that one of the most basic, simple displays of love and intimacy between two men can be very dangerous.   And the question that comes to mind again is:  "How high a price do we have to pay for this illness?"  The whole thing, in fact, can be very discouraging!  And shattering!

Note that I used  the word  "reminded"  on purpose, for I do recall having read something similar a long time ago.  And now that I come to think of it, I realize that  unconciously I did refrain from kissing some times --- not always, though.   In addition, I am also convinced that Bucko must have read some article in the past about the subject being discussed, and may just have forgotten!     Because he gives me the impression of being a very cosmopolitan kind of guy!

Besides, after all these years of holding back  our innermost carnal passions and burning  sexual appetite one way or the other;   and, finally, with the undeniable advances Science made throughout these 25 years, one would hope that it was fine to kiss (again!) without having to worry about KS!  Apparently not. 

So, it is my guess that Bucko really was more disappointed than anything else (just like me, perhaps?), and felt  the  urge to let it out  here.  Now, I don't read blogs (with one exception:  Ann's blog),  so it would be foolish for me to comment on what he writes.   I understand from several of his posts, though, that he practices sero-sorting.  That, of course, is his choice and should be respected.

Val
___
___
P.S.I'm still trying to come to terms on how to interpret Edfu's article, and the action needed on my part.  Needless to say, I am also very frustrated.


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Offline Bucko

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2007, 06:21:08 PM »
I need to get something to eat before I respond to this thread, but willl be on tonight.
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Bucko

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2007, 02:46:54 PM »


It's simply incorrect to state, as Bucko does, that I claimed "that kissing leads to KS."  I reported and repeated the findings of a peer-reviewed scientific article, to which I linked, that appeared in the prestigious "New England Journal of Medicine"--an article I thought needed more publicity than it had ever received.  The scientists in that article used the words "potential" and "may"; I used the words "highly likely," "may," and "can result."  I should not have said "highly"; "likely" would have been sufficient.  However, "can result" does not = "does result" in my opinion.   For the second time I must also point out the deliberate question mark in my topic title.  Nowhere did I state that anyone must or should stop kissing.

I still believe the cause of much of the resultant controversy lies in what I previously referred to as the AIDS generation gap.  That is, I am postulating that there is a significant difference in thinking about AIDS--and all the ramifications thereof-- between the generation that was sexually active before 1981 and the generation that became sexually active after 1981.   

Bucko also seems to believe that I am advocating a "thesis of abstinence," which is also untrue.  I revealed my own case history because I felt it became relevant to the discussion as it developed.  I never encouraged anyone to go and do likewise. 



What is most disturbing to me personally in this thread is Bucko's boast in posting #53 (and what can be found in the essays on the blog he cohosts) that he engages in the "maximum exchange of body fluids."  He has perhaps unwittingly cut to the core of the discussion I hoped to invite, because the "maximum exchange of body fluids" is what causes HIV infection.  The very essence of HIV prevention is the MINIMIZING of the exchange of body fluids. What has been determined and discussed in the past and still needs discussing today are questions like:  Which fluids?  How?  By what mechanism or method?  When?  How often, or always?  And while HHV-8 does not cause HIV infection, it is a serious potential consequence.  Thanks for discussing amongst yourselves.   

While I do understand Edfu's laudable gesture, position and intentions when posting his article, I also discern over and above  Bucko's rage perfectly well and understand his overall disappointment with this disease (and its  consequences) we all deal with on a daily basis.
Let me try to concentrate and explain how I feel about Bucko's posture throughout this thread.

It seems to me that Bucko  feels more or less the way  I do regarding this issue, in that we are angry and disheartened.  We are beside ourselves and distraught with grief, for just when we thought that it was fine again to have something close to normal sex, we are reminded that one of the most basic, simple displays of love and intimacy between two men can be very dangerous.   And the question that comes to mind again is:  "How high a price do we have to pay for this illness?"  The whole thing, in fact, can be very discouraging!  And shattering!

Note that I used  the word  "reminded"  on purpose, for I do recall having read something similar a long time ago.  And now that I come to think of it, I realize that  unconciously I did refrain from kissing some times --- not always, though.   In addition, I am also convinced that Bucko must have read some article in the past about the subject being discussed, and may just have forgotten!     Because he gives me the impression of being a very cosmopolitan kind of guy!

Besides, after all these years of holding back  our innermost carnal passions and burning  sexual appetite one way or the other;   and, finally, with the undeniable advances Science made throughout these 25 years, one would hope that it was fine to kiss (again!) without having to worry about KS!  Apparently not. 

So, it is my guess that Bucko really was more disappointed than anything else (just like me, perhaps?), and felt  the  urge to let it out  here.  Now, I don't read blogs (with one exception:  Ann's blog),  so it would be foolish for me to comment on what he writes.   I understand from several of his posts, though, that he practices sero-sorting.  That, of course, is his choice and should be respected.

Val
___
___
P.S.I'm still trying to come to terms on how to interpret Edfu's article, and the action needed on my part.  Needless to say, I am also very frustrated.




What frustrates me most of all is people speculating on my thoughts and feelings when I am very clear about them. There is nothing opaque about me whatsoever. It's all there in black and white, but it does involve a bit of reading.

From the moment I joined AIDSmeds in the summer of 2005 I have been an advocate for the positive aspects of sex and the transformative effects reclaiming my libido from the ashcan of a nine-year long dysfunctional relationship has had on my psyche. While I don't necessarily recommend that everyone needs to explore the darker reaches of his/her own minds in the body fluids of others, I personally have found it immensely liberating.

Liberty, of course, has its price and its limits, even for me.

The limits of freedom for me are pretty simple. I only have sex with HIV+ people, and I choose to further limit the pool of potential candidates in other ways as well. I restrict myself to guys who feel the same way I do and who actively solicit unprotected sex. I restrict myself even further by selecting only those who attract me and whose preferences dovetail with my own. As I discovered last summer, that still leaves a vast field of possibilities.

The price of such freedom is high. I have contracted two UITs which were painful and debilitating. And in being frank about such things, I open myself up to criticism. My blog was vandalized repeatedly and a good friend was stalked by some crazy for having the temerity of supporting me. There are other rammifications in my personal life as well that I'm choosing not to disclose now, but they are serious.

But suggesting that I lack compassion for my various beaux is plain wrong. I devoted over 20,000 words describing how I came to fall in love with one of them and the pain this caused me.

Of course, in order to understand me you must know me. And in cyberspace knowing me involves reading what I write. It's not all heaving muscles and cavernous openings, you know. There is doubt and uncertainty, love and disillusion. It's all there. There's no need to subject my thought process or motovations to speculative analysis.

I stated in post #3 that I doubt if I'll reach the age of fifty-five. It was half in jest, but serious nonetheless. I never expected to reach thirty. I believed in the premonition of someone who said I'd die at thirty-eight right up until my thirty-ninth birthday. I made it though so much to get to forty-seven, and sometimes doubt my strength and determination to continue further. But the spirit which animates me pushes me forward despite chronic pain and an occasionally crippling depression.

And this spirit demands its satisfaction in things corporeal, which is why it manifested itself here in the first place. To deny it would be to me something of a cardinal sin. If kissing devils my destiny and leaves me dead before my time, so be it.

Brent
(Who'd have it no other way)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2007, 03:08:41 PM »
Word.



(My trivial yet thoroughly inspired response to the post above.)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

 


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