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Author Topic: Is Kissing Dangerous?  (Read 13600 times)

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Offline edfu

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Is Kissing Dangerous?
« on: March 25, 2007, 12:30:52 AM »
http://uwnews.washington.edu/ni/article.asp?articleID=1936

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite-KB-ref.jsp?page=kb-06-02-01&rf=117

The current controversial topics on this board regarding the possible danger of oral sex and those HIV-positives who are fearful of sexual activity in general have led me to believe that another, less discussed, controversy also needs some discussion. 

Kaposi's sarcoma has long been recognized as a primary opportunistic infection of AIDS.  In 1995 Human Herpesvirus Type 8 (HHV-8) was discovered to be the cause of KS and was long thought to be sexually transmitted.  Those with HIV infection and KS are thus actually suffering from two separate viruses. 

In December 2000 the New England Journal of Medicine published a shocking article, "Mucosal Shedding of Human Herpesvirus 8 in Men," which reported that that HHV-8 can be--and most likely is--spread via saliva, particularly during deep, or "French," kissing.  A study conducted in Seattle discovered that HHV-8 was found in saliva 30 times more frequently than in semen amongst those infected with HHV-8.  (See links above.)  The final conclusion of the NEJM article states:  "Oral exposure to infectious saliva is a potential risk factor for the acquisition of HHV-8 among MSM.  Hence currently recommended safer sex practices may not protect against HHV-8 infection."

Not everyone infected with HHV-8 goes on to develop KS, and it is believed now that effective use of HAART prevents its occurrence, but there is now scientific evidence that shows how HIV potentiates the development of KS if one is also infected with HHV-8.  It was also believed at one time that no one with HHV-8 develops KS without a severely compromised immune system.  It is now recognized that KS can occur (or reoccur) at any CD4 level, unlike most other classic AIDS OI's.  Numerous dermatologists with extensive KS and AIDS practices are now also reporting anecdotally (including my own prominent dermatologist in NYC) cases of HIV-negative gay men with KS. 

The point is simply this:  Although it is correct to state that kissing and saliva is not an actual mechanism for HIV transmission, it is highly likely that it may be an actual mechanism for HHV-8 transmission, which can result in KS.  The comparative silence that has enveloped this development reminds me very much of the early days of the AIDS epidemic in 1982, when so many responsible authorities and community leaders stated that we could not tell people how to have sex and that we must avoid a panic.  After all, if kissing can be so dangerous, what is left now?   Am I alone in believing that this is something that should be more generally known? 

"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline scotttt

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2007, 12:59:08 AM »
I was just waiting for this to come up when it was suggested that saliva is an infectious agent in HIV transmission.  Step aside mono, KS is the new kissing disease......

I have actually read the research you have brought up.  Interesting stuff.  I just hope it can be looked at in a manner that does not stir up undue panic and that we can be kind to one another in the process. 



Edited to add:

I will behave better in this thread than I did in the oral sex thread.   ;)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 01:01:47 AM by scotttt »

Offline Bucko

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 01:09:59 AM »
If I make it to fifty-five, it'll be a miracle.

Brent
(Who seems to only like what's bad for him)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2007, 07:29:38 AM »
If I make it to fifty-five, it'll be a miracle.

Brent
(Who seems to only like what's bad for him)


I will be fifty-five in May. ;)

Offline Bucko

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 03:29:32 PM »
On you it works, dear. On me, it'll be like that Kipling poem:

A fool there was
And he made a prayer
(Even as you or I)
To a rag and a bone and a hank of hair


Brent
(Who has been compared to Theda Bara)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2007, 03:39:25 PM »
We should all wrap ourselves in Saran Wrap from head to toe and be done with it.

Tim

(Who will happily trade an early grave for a life of passionate kisses and good head anytime.)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Central79

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2007, 03:42:31 PM »
Oh no.

It's all true. But HAART definitely sorts it out to a large extent. And the oncological treatment is pretty good. The people that worry me are those who develop it with a CD4 of 600.

That's all I'm gonna say. Otherwise we're all gonna be reduced to living inside plastic bags. Maybe I'll just throw in interesting (depending on your PoV) facts from time to time: for example, did you know that smoking cigarettes and/or crack cocaine are protective against KS?

So in summary, less kissing - more crack.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2007, 03:44:34 PM »
Molehill... meet my good friend mountain.  You two are very different, aren't you?  Enjoy.

Anyone who allows this to get in the way of kissing other people is a giant pussy.

I said it, and I'm standing by it.

What should we do now?  Live in biocontainment areas and make others gargle with bleach before making out with people?

Oh, and oxygen causes cancer.  It does.  For real.  Cue the freakout.

Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline thunter34

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  • His name is Carl.
Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2007, 03:50:28 PM »
Oh no.

It's all true. But HAART definitely sorts it out to a large extent. And the oncological treatment is pretty good. The people that worry me are those who develop it with a CD4 of 600.

That's all I'm gonna say. Otherwise we're all gonna be reduced to living inside plastic bags. Maybe I'll just throw in interesting (depending on your PoV) facts from time to time: for example, did you know that smoking cigarettes and/or crack cocaine are protective against KS?

So in summary, less kissing - more crack.

OK-  I have to bite on this one.  PLEASE enlighten me on how smoking cigs and/or crack helps prevent KS?

Tim

(Who is looking to work up a good medicinal excuse.  I got bad habits, bad habits...)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Central79

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2007, 03:56:40 PM »
 :D Thought you might!  ;)

(Takes deep breath). I dunno to be perfectly honest. Both are associated with a lower risk of contracting HHV-8. I'm not sure what effect they have once you're HHV8 positive.

I guess that the smoke kills HHV8 in the oral cavity. It kills everything else! Or maybe smokers salivate less, and have drier mouths less hospitable to HHV8.

Answers on a postcard please!
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2007, 03:59:07 PM »
Thank God.

My theory about creating an inhospitable environment to viruses through smoking and drugging applies to something!  Huzzah!

I've been smoking since before I started having sex... so I imagine many KS viruses have bitten the dust in my nicotine laden mouth.  Ha ha ha!
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Central79

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2007, 04:02:12 PM »
You see - in a few short posts we've identified a problem, gone through the 7 stages of grief, and identified a cure! 

All we need to do is distil Benj and inject him into the buttocks of every HIV+ gay man. Quickly! Grab that chain-smoking, francophone American!

Gosh I'm feeling rather whimsical this evening.

Edited to add: I apologise. There are only 5 stages of grief. Unless you are French, in which case "bargaining" is further subdivided into bargaining with a) God; b) the government and c) the European Union.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 04:06:53 PM by Matt Mee »
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2007, 04:05:10 PM »
All we need to do is distil Benj and inject him into the buttocks of every HIV+ gay man.

Huzzah!

I could be my own vodka! 

Smoked Benj's Boozy Kalopsi's Sarcoma Cure All.

I wish that it be sold by unscrupulous men twirling mustaches.

Thank you.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Central79

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  • Posts: 527
Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2007, 04:12:05 PM »
You missed out the word "patented". An integral part of any quack cure...

There's a distinct shortage of moustache twirling men these days. I think the genes for it died out with the decimation of the RAF in WW1 and 2. If only we'd had sperm banks, this country would be so much better today. And by better I mean hisute and slimey!

Edited to add: I miss Terry Thomas.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 04:16:37 PM by Matt Mee »
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline keypps

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2007, 04:25:47 PM »
So all those guys that will not date (dating usually = kissing -- I would hope) a smoker might rethink...Did my stock just go up in the world of dating?

Offline Central79

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  • Posts: 527
Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2007, 04:27:24 PM »
I guess that rather depends on whether the smoking is also making you impotent...  ::)
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2007, 04:38:11 PM »
Well, Bucko, I'm 64 and was infected in 1982 or earlier, when I put on my metaphorical plastic bag and went celibate ever since.  I developed KS in 2001 and began HAART.  Admittedly, I'm a longtime non-progressor who finally progressed.  My KS is in remission (my lesions have completely disappeared, without chemo), and my CD4 is over 500.    

Matt, I've been a smoker since I was 17, and it didn't help me.  

I also happen to have an HIV-negative friend who's been diagnosed with KS.  He's Irish.  So much for the classic Mediterranean connection for non-HIV related KS.  

Aupoint:  If you've watched and experienced over 150 friends and acquaintances die from AIDS complications, many covered with virulent KS lesions from head to toe, you do indeed become a "giant pussy."  I will not apologize for that. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 04:45:34 PM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2007, 04:42:17 PM »
Aupoint:  If you've watched and experienced over 150 friends and acquaintainces die from AIDS complications, many covered with virulent KS lesions from head to toe, you do indeed become a "giant pussy."  I will not apologize for that. 

Should we all stop breathing to stop cellular damage from free radical oxygen molecules as well?
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 04:53:12 PM »
Aupoint, your point has been well recognized recently on this forum in the disputations between the attitudes of newbies, some of whom admit they've never known anyone to die of AIDS, and some of us old-timers, who saw everyone we knew who was infected ultimately die.  This went on for over 20 years. I'm not going to enter that debate other than to point out there is a distinct AIDS generation gap.   
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 05:00:20 PM »
Actually, I know two people to have died from AIDS, one of whom was a family member... and one of whom was very close to me when I was a child.

So yeah.  You know... a lot of times, my ridiculous pronouncements aren't made out of complete fucking ignorance.

But if it makes you more comfortable to chalk it up to the young'un who you think doesn't know what he's talking about, then go right ahead.

Whatever.

Before leaving this thread to allow the sky to fall on everyone, I will ask... KS isn't the only OI, is it?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 05:02:00 PM by aupointillimite »
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2007, 05:07:42 PM »
Matty the Damned finds this sort of stuff interesting.

The overwhelming majority of us contracted HIV from unprotected anal and/or vaginal sex and (with possibly a few exceptions) we knew that was a risk for transmission. Even the tweakers don't have an excuse.

And now we should worry about blow-jobs and kissing?

As for as I can tell this isn't just a case of "mountain meet molehill" but "stable door wave goodbye to bolting horse".

MtD

Offline Central79

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2007, 05:09:08 PM »
Steady now!

I certainly never meant to suggest that taking up smoking would be a good idea - hence my slightly tongue in cheek reference to impotence. Lung cancer is another good reason not to bother.

Edfu, I'm really glad that HAART got you back on track and put your KS into remission. I've seen this happen with even quite advanced cases of KS, where I've taken an interest for obvious reasons - it's still something that happens in the HAART era, and so could actually be something uniting newbies and oldies for a change. If you've ever been to London, you'll know the phrase "MIND THE GAP" and I do, I know it's not the same - but it's something.

It is increasing in HIV -ve people. This is interesting and I don't pretend to know why it's occurring. I haven't read any literature linking the amount of HHV8 to the likelihood of KS. Interestingly, it's quite prevalent amongst old Jewish men too. I need to do some reading.

M.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline milker

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2007, 05:09:35 PM »
I guess I can't say "kiss my ass" anymore either  :-\

Milker
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2007, 05:11:11 PM »
Aupoint:  No, KS isn't the only OI, but it's the only one that scientists believe originate in the exchange of saliva.  

Also, two deaths are tragic and deserving of sincere condolence.  They are not, however, equivalent to the psychological trauma of over 150 deaths and the disappearance of one's entire social and support circle.  I never said you didn't know what you were talking about; you are talking about your life experience.  I am talking about mine.  They are simply radically different.  
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 05:45:27 PM by edfu »
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Central79

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2007, 05:51:34 PM »
I guess I can't say "kiss my ass" anymore either  :-\

Shigella! Cholera! E.coli! This is Miss Jean Brodie warning you!
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline Buckmark

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2007, 06:09:41 PM »
Boy howdy -- now I have to worry about kissing?  There are few things I can think of that are more pleasurable and stimulating than a nice, long makeout session with a man who's a good kisser.  Not that I've had the occasion to do so in a long time, so this is all from my recollection.  :P

Cheers,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2007, 06:16:27 PM »
I really hate "my hurt means more than your's does" arguments.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2007, 06:22:07 PM »
I learn something new everyday. I didn't realize that kissing was also dangerous. Thanks for the input.

Al

(who now can't even kiss)  >:(
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
3/13/07 = CD4 = 386 22% VL ?

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2007, 06:45:58 PM »
thunter:  I'm sorry my comments came across to you in that way.  It wasn't my intent.  I was trying to explain the difference between grief and trauma to one who chose to revert to ridicule by referring to free radical oxygen molecules.  However, I wouldn't expect someone who advises the use of Saran Wrap to understand the intense psychological issues here or to make a rational contribution to this discussion.
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2007, 06:51:53 PM »
Edited to remove reckless comments.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 07:04:57 PM by aupointillimite »
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2007, 06:55:29 PM »
IBTL

(in before the lock)
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline bocker3

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2007, 07:09:27 PM »
Why can't people state their sides without getting nasty, snotty and just plain mean.  The last time I was watching my grandson (who is 5) and he acted like that -- I sent him to bed to early.
I mean come on -- we are all adults.  Just because someone states his thoughts on something doesn't mean he's stating everyone else needs to do the same thing.

Why don't we all grow up here.  (and NO -- that is not a swipe at anyone's actual age -- immaturity happens at all ages).

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2007, 07:13:52 PM »
Why can't people state their sides without getting nasty, snotty and just plain mean.  The last time I was watching my grandson (who is 5) and he acted like that -- I sent him to bed to early.
I mean come on -- we are all adults.  Just because someone states his thoughts on something doesn't mean he's stating everyone else needs to do the same thing.

Why don't we all grow up here.  (and NO -- that is not a swipe at anyone's actual age -- immaturity happens at all ages).

Mike

You're right.

Perhaps I went a smidge too far.  Appy polly loggies and all that.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 07:16:21 PM »
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline milker

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2007, 07:17:51 PM »
So what's left? Masturbation? Mutual, at least? I provide the gloves!

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2007, 07:21:17 PM »
I stick to heavy duty fisting and leave it at that.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Ihavehope

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2007, 07:26:47 PM »
You're right.

Perhaps I went a smidge too far.  Appy polly loggies and all that.

so mature of u Aupo.. bravo..
Infected: April 2005
12/6/06 - Diagnosed HIV positive
12/19/06 - CD4 = 240  22% VL = 26,300
1/4/07 - CD4 = 200 16% VL = ?
2/9/07 = Started Kaletra/Truvada
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Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2007, 07:34:41 PM »
The only suggestions I've made, aupoint, are that this matter needs to be better known and is deserving of discussion.  (I've just noticed you've decided your last comments were "reckless" and have been deleted.)  Perhaps you haven't noticed the question mark in my topic heading.  Nowhere did I imply that anyone ought to follow my own path of celibacy, which was a result of a nervous breakdown when all around me were sick and literally dying.  You and thunter never experienced that. 

When I stopped having sex, it was long before there was an HIV test available, long before HIV had even been identified, but I intuitively knew  I was already infected via my interactions with my sick friends.  I had hardly been a virgin prior to 1982, having lived an extremely active (and one thought "healthy" at the time) sex life from 1962 to 1982, participating in everything New York City, Fire Island, and St. Mark's Baths had to offer.  To be perfectly frank and blunt here, I had once estimated that I had had approximately 3,000 sexual encounters during those halcyon years of gay liberation.  So I am as pure as the driven slush and am not passing judgment on anyone.

In retrospect, I realize that my decision, deemed even loonier then than now, resulted in my not infecting even more guys, and I console myself (slightly) with that.  It's certainly much easier now that I'm 64, so I also avoid all of that frustration.  I know too well what 24-year-old guys like yourself think of 64-year-old gay men when we're out trolling for sex.     

If I seem obsessed with the topic of saliva and KS, it's because of my own history with KS and my own history from 1982 to 1990, when I had to fight tooth and nail with every gay organization, including GMHC, about formulating official recommendations about what constituted safer sex.  We lost many men then because the official line always was "We can't tell people how to have sex."   
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline milker

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2007, 08:05:25 PM »
I know too well what 24-year-old guys like yourself think of 64-year-old gay men when we're out trolling for sex.     

Oh please.... Your post started well but this sentence was absolutely not necessary. This is aidsmeds.com, not fuckmycunt.com.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline AtomicA

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2007, 08:54:48 PM »
I think all y'all should go and take a class entitled "The Sociology of Health and Illness" which is a pre-req for any medically related degree in Alberta. I think you'll find that all this information that we've been getting about scary new ways for being human to kill you is designed, though unintentionally so, in such a way as to terrify us into thinking that every little thing we do is irresponsible and therefore morally wrong.

Since only crazy neo-naziesque christians still use the word 'sin' in casual conversation and mean it, our society has had to manufacture new ways of describing morally abhorrant actions in a seemingly scientific, objective way. The word 'risk' never use to mean something bad. it was a word used by statisticians to denote the likelihood of an event occuring. We have now evolved in our use of said word to use it in place of 'sin'

having unprotected sex is a 'high risk behaviour' - translated to mean morally wrong, which allows us to assign blame and therefore some form of moral judgement upon the people who do it. This also allows us to say that contracting HIV is that own person's 'fault' another word wrapped up in negative moral connotations.

So over the span of 25 years we managed to turn the most natural of human activities, the very reason we are all born in the first place as well as something that every other animal on the planet does frequently, publicly and without a second thought - into an moral game of russian roulette in which the consequences are death. Now I know that sexual activity has always been subject to taboos, but never taboos that dress themselves up in labcoats and make moral judgements based entirely on the premise of scientific rationality. At least the church is honest about the fact that they are judging us.
I'm not saying that telling people to use condoms is a bad thing, it's a very good thing. But telling people that if they don't use condoms they are personally responsible for any bad thing that comes their way and that they should and will be judged as deviant in the eyes of the common public scares me.
Now we're going to try and do the same thing to kissing?

well, KS is caused by a virus. alright so is cervical cancer (which, now that we know is caused largely by an STD will inevitably become a dirty, morally judged disease like HIV... just give it time). So are most of the other diseases people get. MS may have viral roots. So what? Eating fatty foods and processed sugar and smoking and not getting enough excercise and not eating enough veggies and living in houses with paint and carpet and using detergents and preservatives are all going to kill you too. Life is dangerous.
The fact remains that for people with stable CD4 counts and people who do not have HIV, driving in your car every day poses MUCH more serious, devastating and immediate 'risks' than KS ever will. Just as an aside, it should also be mentioned if this disease can affect people with no HIV and normal CD4 counts, why are people talking about this is reference to gay people at all? ANYONE can get it, easily. lord knows I made out with hundreds of hot chicks when I was drunk over the course of highschool...

I guess my point is while it's great that these researchers have found out this interesting piece of information, I would ask them "so the fuck what?" At the risk of sounding brash, I like living, I like kissing and I like driving in my car. Might they one day kill me... maybe. But they are a part of being alive and to try and live 'risk free' and thus not be judged as morally culpable and deserving of all the bad things that may (and that's a big MAY, not will) happen because of them isn't worth trading in my humanity. I think it's time we stopped letting people tell us to feel guilty for being human.

Not to say we should all take up skydiving or fuck 100 people in a week... that's just silly. But let's be reasonable here. Might you get a virus from kissing? Sure. would it be worth living if we stopped? Hell no!

and PS, if it really were that big of a risk to people with normal CD4 counts, I promise KS would have wiped us out LONG ago. People kiss a whole lot more than they fuck. To the people with HIV, well if you've got HIV sugar... the milk is likely already spilled in this case to. Don't waste your time or your energy crying about it.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2007, 09:07:56 PM »
thunter:  I'm sorry my comments came across to you in that way.  It wasn't my intent.  I was trying to explain the difference between grief and trauma to one who chose to revert to ridicule by referring to free radical oxygen molecules.  However, I wouldn't expect someone who advises the use of Saran Wrap to understand the intense psychological issues here or to make a rational contribution to this discussion.

At least now I understand where the FU in your name comes from.  Yeesh.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline milker

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2007, 09:10:35 PM »
I guess my point is while it's great that these researchers have found out this interesting piece of information, I would ask them "so the fuck what?"

Nice post, AtomicA. On that particular sentence, I would say that it's good to have researchers discover those kind of things. But I would then say that it's bad to look at all medical publications and make a general statement from them. Those were from 2000, it's been 7 years already, and I've done some research, I found a few other documents about this since 2000, but nothing alarming.

So I respect edfu for his warning to the community, because we are weakened by the HIV virus and this is something to take into consideration. However, if I was to read all medical publications that are related to human contact and take them for granted I'd just start digging my grave right now, seriously.

Same thing goes with "breakthrough discoveries", step back, relax, read the fine print, wait for the studies, the results. When I see studies that are "extremely promising" and were done with 7 men, 4 on placebo, no women but 120 mice, I can only frown at how this study is being conducted and how serious it is.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2007, 09:12:20 PM »
Dagnabbit!  I completely spaced there myself!  I also meant to say, "Welcome back around, AtomicA" in my last post.  Great post about risk = guilt, btw. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2007, 10:24:38 PM »
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, thunter, but "edfu" comes from the name of a town in Egypt on the Nile between Luxor and Aswan.  The ruins of the Temple of Horus in Edfu, begun in 237 B.C. under Ptolemy III, are magnificent and little known.  When I made a trip to the little-known archaeological sites of ancient Egypt, my compatriots graced me with the nickname, but only because my first name is indeed Ed.

And thank you, Atomic, for a most reasonable post.  It is indeed all about decisions regarding risk-taking, but such decisions can't be made without knowing about the risk, can they?   
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline scotttt

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2007, 10:45:15 PM »
I have also read about KS cases among HIV neg gay men. 

We have to understand once again that we are dealing with viral infections.  Sadly, anything remotely associated with homosexual erotic contact carries with it some degree of societal shame and shame laden warnings about "risky" behaviors.

If you are too worried to kiss someone else, don't kiss.

 I have a friend who is a 31 year old virgin.  He is afraid of even giving a hand job because he thinks he could possible get herpes on his fingers.  He is a very intelligent and kind person, but his fear has prevented him from enjoying his sexuality.  He feels the risks associated with sexual contact outweigh the possible pleasures.  I feel that a life half lived isn't worth living.  We agree to disagree. 


Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2007, 11:09:49 PM »




gay=guilt

Offline Lis

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2007, 11:18:17 PM »
only if he/she bites
poz 1986....

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2007, 11:30:55 PM »
Kissing is only dangerous if you are carrying a gun.

Offline edfu

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2007, 11:49:12 PM »
Scottt and Dachs:  What's the difference between guilt and fear?  Is there any?
"No one will ever be free so long as there are pestilences."--Albert Camus, "The Plague"

"Mankind can never be free until the last brick in the last church falls on the head of the last priest."--Voltaire

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Is Kissing Dangerous?
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2007, 11:56:49 PM »
Scottt and Dachs:  What's the difference between guilt and fear?  Is there any?


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