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Author Topic: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation  (Read 12760 times)

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Offline jkinatl2

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Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« on: June 21, 2006, 02:31:36 AM »
So some folks seem to have trouble with Zephyr and the other LTNP folks who have given up HUGE chunks of their lives to fly to Maryland and offer their blood and time to research. This despite NOT HAVING A SYMPTOM or a single reason to do so, other than pure and unadulterated altruism.

Their bodies might indeed contain the cure for the selfish, mean-spirited, and cowardly fucks who have apparently let Zephyr know that her cause, a cause WELL WORTH paying for, is, well, not.

Of course, these cowardly bugfuckers will only reveal themselves via private messaging or email, because they KNOW they are full of SHIT and are well aware that were their identities common knowledge here, they would be served up for stew by more apt pupils than myself.

Seriously. You think finding a cure for AIDS is stupid, wrong, or not worth your money or time? Fine. be an ass. Be the stinkiest, nastiest, spongiest ass that ever trotted behind a wart-ridden syphilitic camel. But DON"T use that precious time you seem to have so much of to write Zephyr and her compatriots to tell them that.

If you can't help, then please just shut that hole you keep stuffing pie and penis into, and let those of us who WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE do so.

And next time you take your precious free drugs, remember that people like Zephyr helped to make those drugs a reality. Or don't. Frankly, there's a Darwinian edge to the pandemic that cannot be denied. While most of us are collateral damage, I submit that you, nasty mean people who are hurting my friend and her cause, are God's own target.

God, apparently not known for His aim.


Jonathan
(who does not believe in God, but it sounded great in his head)

*edited for typos and to put more cussing in. Don't fuck with Zephr.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 02:33:49 AM by jkinatl2 »
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 10:20:17 AM »
I defy one, just a single MOTHERFUCKING one, of these gutless spivs to show their pin heads in this place and I will summon a winter that will last 1000 years. None of these people are good enough to pick the corn out of Zephala or ChefPaul's shit and I welcome to the opportunity to engage them in battle.

MtD
(Who knows)

Offline Robert

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2006, 10:21:37 AM »
Shows you how fuckin' naive I am.  Hell, the world is full of mean people.  But I didn't think such ass-wipes would be here.

You tell 'em Jonathan.

robert

(wow...I just love Jonathan's writing!)
..........

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2006, 11:06:53 AM »
Dear Jonathan and All,

First of all, I completely appreciate your feelings about Zephyr and what she and others are contributing to the general welfare through their generous efforts.

However, apart from that you aren't doing her any good service nor anyone else that I can see by launching a ballistic attack here in these pages. I haven't seen any entriies in the Forum which were attacking her. If she has been the object of such via PMs there are means of reporting that -- contacting the moderators, a tool which you and others have used before. 

And when you feel as passionate as you and others understandably do about this, then I am going to risk your ire by suggesting flame baiting threads are not the way to make your point. Frankly, what has sparked what you've written is not clear. The only thing that is clear is your rage and your upset.

I'm asking you and any others who are feeling similarly to take a step back and give some thought to this. I know that each of you who has written here is capable of being much articulate without spewing and namecalling.

If anyone had what they feel is a legitimate question in relation to Zephyr and others, I don't see how there could possibly be a dialogue in the current flame war atmosphere.

So what I am asking for here is some uhmm restraint. By doing that you can say everyting you need to as truthfully as you want to and better serve your points as well as Zephyr and others whom you care about.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 11:10:58 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2006, 11:14:03 AM »
Andy, I understand your point of view. But shadows and darkness give some people power that the cold, unflattering light of public "day" strips away. To think that people sneak behind this forum and launch attacks on others enrages me no end. And TO that end, I honestly believe that bringing it out in public is the best solution.

I'd rather see an open flame than a smoldering, destructive invisible burn.
"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2006, 11:28:06 AM »
Jonathan, my objection is not to your having brought up this subject. It's HOW you chose to do it.

It's that you have done so in what I will call a ranti which just doesn't serve your concern well.

Listen, I have been in many situations where I have wanted to grab a hold of the schumuck in front of me and scream in his face, "Don't you get it you greedy sack of s**t," or similar words. And once in a great while that might be the way to go. But I don't see it in this instance. And most of the time I have found that being clear and articulate in a white heat fury is the most effective way to cut someone off at the knees. And man! Are they in shock when that happens. And others observing get just what is going on much more clearly.

I can easily imagine that someone just bopping in on your thread wouldn't know what the hell you're talking about and would only get that you're really pissed.

Andy Velez

Offline The Canuck

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2006, 11:34:17 AM »
Andy,

Quote
And when you feel as passionate as you and others understandably do about this, then I am going to risk your ire by suggesting flame baiting threads are not the way to make your point.

I disagree a bit with you Andy although I understand your motive. However we can't expect to get confrontation here as I presume these '' persons '' will remain completely anonymous, yet they should be able to read what they did isn't appreciated. I don't know the details but from what Jonathan wrote in his introduction text, it looks like a very strange behavior for people living with HIV, and assuming here this is the case.

Quote
to show their pin heads in this place and I will summon a winter that will last 1000 years

Matty...I hope it there's no Canucks into this...we have enough of 4 tough Winter months every year without having to suffer one that will last 1000 years.  ::)

Best Regards,

The Canuck

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2006, 11:39:08 AM »
Canuck, it's hard for me to disagree with you because that cat photo just knocks me out everytime.

I'm glad Jonathan brought this up. I just wish he had used the more tempered articulacy of which he often demonstrates he is capable.
Andy Velez

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2006, 11:41:02 AM »
Thatg's the thing. Zephyr is too much of a classy lady to post messages she received. She only feels hurt by what some have privately written to her.

When someone I perceive (right or wrong, for better or worse) as a gentle soul is wounded, I go ballistic. That's my weak point, as should be evident by anyone who has been on these boards for any length of time. Seriously. Elderly people, nice people, children, whomever. When I see someone attacked, I go all terrier. usually I respond with scathing wit and verbal clarity. Sometimes I use the F bomb. This honestly seemed like an F bomb situation.

Unfortunately, I am not the classy lady Zephyr is. I dont seriously expect a response. But it was, is, important for me to let whomever hurt my friend to know that their behaviour is intolerable. And were Zephyr so kind as to divulge details, I would cheerfully post them here, including email addresses and best time of day to leave stinking piles of dog poop on their front porches.

Which, come to think of it, is probably why she won't :)


"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2006, 12:05:48 PM »
Everyone:

Adding to Andy's sage -- and hopefully calming -- words of advice...

I hate to say it, but this thread underscores a growing controversey in the Forums: fundraising.  The moderators have received e-mails of concern regarding Zephyr's use of the Forums for personal fundraising.  Initially we opted not to take any steps to curtail Zephyr's fundraising efforts, but then we were hit with the shady fundraising efforts of Eldon (see: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=237.msg5742#msg5742). 

Jonathan, even without going into detail regarding the behind-the-scenes tit-for-tat, your message here illustrates that fundraising in the Forums -- particularly for individual members (no matter how noble the cause) or "undocumented" organizations -- has resulted in some serious inflammatory rhetoric and strong feelings.  This, the moderators believe, is NOT beneficial to the Forums and your message demonstrates how potentially volatile this issue can be.

At this point, we have no choice but to set down some ground rules regarding fundraising in the Forums.  This, however, may take some time.  With the exception of Eldon's recent efforts, we'll allow fundraising for Zephyr and AMG '06 to continue, at least until we decide if changes are necessary.  And until we've figured out how to permit fundraising in the Forums -- if we decide to let it continue at all -- I'm respectfully requesting that all FUTURE fundraising efforts be directed to us at forums@aidsmeds.com before they are discussed in the Forums.

Once Ann, Peter, Andy, and I have figured out how to move forward with this, we'll be posting a fundraising "rules and regulations" message in the Forums.

Tim Horn

Offline Robert

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2006, 12:12:48 PM »
Hi Andy.

I think Jonathan was actually quite restrained at least in the way he posted his message if not in actual words.


The Clinical Trials Forum is probably one of the least read forums here at AidsMeds.  Can you imagine if he had put this in the Living With section?  My god, then it would really be headline news. 

Clever boy, that Jonathan.

robt

ps.  Jonathan started this thread last night (June 20). As of 920A (PDT) there have been 94 hits and 10 replies.  Rocky started a rather innocent, innocous rocky-type thread this morning and by 920A again he is had 103 hits and 14 replies. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 12:22:19 PM by Robert »
..........

Offline The Canuck

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 12:18:56 PM »
Quote
I hate to say it, but this thread underscores a growing controversy in the Forums: fundraising.

Tim,

I don't understand why this is a problem. I mean each person here is free to participate or not, and really wondering why some jealous persons ( and can't see any other reason ) to rule the majority.  ???

I agree some rules might apply to fundraising but to stop it...not nice for all the persons who needs help, whether for participating to a study or be part of an AMG.

Regards,

The Canuck

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2006, 12:44:02 PM »
Tim, that thread was an excellent example of my point, actually :)

When all the stuff comes out in the open, in public, then this community's collective BS detector proves to be in fine working order. Seriously, imagine the harm if  open and public discussion of the situation was discouraged.

It's been my experience that stuff that thrives in the dark does not fare so well in the light. Thus far, things like the AMG and Zephyr's situation have withstood all scrutiny. If someone has, or had a problem with either fundraising activity, then the appropriate place to vent that concern was here, in the public forum.

Not to Zeph, and certainly not in private. Not if the concern was valid, and not stemming from a malicious intent.

I'm not usually a careless writer. And I was pretty careful with what I wrote in the original post. Seriously, you don't get nasty syphilitic camel ass analogies without putting some brain into the process. This forum CAN police itself, to a great extent, and with appropriate moderation. But only when we bring situations to the light, instead of lettting them fester in the dark.

Odd. It never occured to be to doubt Zephyr's situation for one moment. Yet it never occured to me to believe Eldon was sincere for one moment. I'm not saying I'm that good. Some things are just, as you discovered, evident.

If someone has a problem here, I thnk the best, the ONLY productive way to address it is in the public forums. sneaking around behind the scenes undermines this community, and does nothing to solve problems or expose fraud.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2006, 02:02:27 PM »
Jonathan:

With all due respect, there are no hard and fast rules regarding what should be discussed in the Forums, in PM, or in reports to the moderators.  At the risk of singling you out here, you say that you questioned Eldon's sincerity from the beginning, but I don't recall a message from you in the Forums to jumpstart the "community's collective BS detector" before things got as far as they did.  It was a handful of messages to the moderators that prompted me to look into the matter further, which proved to be very telling indeed.

Jonathan, upon reading (and rereading) your original and subsequent messages in this thread, I'm left with the impression that Zephyr has been on the receiving end of a barrage of attacks.     But this is all we have to go on.  There are no specifics in your message at all, nor has Zephyr chimed in with comments of her own or notified the moderators of abusive PMs.  Once again we're left with a hellfire and damnation message that points the finger at both everyone and no one and will undoubtedly prevent anyone who has legitimate questions about Zephyr's appropriation and use of funds from raising them publicly. 

Zephyr went out on a limb to request financial assistance from her fellow Forums members. But when one goes out on a limb like this -- especially when money is concerned -- it makes perfect sense that some members are going to want more information by raising questions (or even skepticism) before providing cash or supporting the effort. 

I agree... raising questions and concerns publicly is important, as it allows others to ponder their own thoughts, to better understand the need, and to potentially help out. But for many, PMs are undoubtedly the preferred form of communication in the Forums.  While I really wish this wasn't so, I also understand that the PM function helps to foster communication as much as it manages to break down open communication in the Forums. 

If Zephyr was on the receiving end of an attack, I hope that she will make this publicly known or notify the moderators.  Even if these aren't outright attacks, I can certainly understand why Zephyr would be upset by other members questioning her fundraising efforts.  But, to me, this underscores a central concern regarding fundraising in the Forums -- it can easily result in some members feeling hurt or screwed over.

Like I said above, we're not at all clear how to move forward with fundraising in the Forums.  Some of you have chimed in publicly -- and via PM -- regarding your thoughts and we look forward to hearing more from everybody regarding this sensitive topic.

Tim Horn 

 



Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2006, 02:07:43 PM »
Well, perhaps starting a new thread for the purpose of discussing fundraising would be a better idea than having the discussion here, in this one.

I can certainly take the heat for what I posted, but I'm not apologizing for it. Nor do I think it's my responsibility to air each and every concern and skeptical moment regarding other posters and other situations. I have yet to do so here without getting rather scorched by the powers that be.

I respectfully withdraw from this thread.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Ann

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 03:21:57 PM »
If I may return to the original subject of this thread...

It would seem that Zephyr chose to notify Jonathan that she was being the subject of attacks from forum members via PM and/or email.

Zephyr, why you chose to notify Jonathan and not the moderator team, I just don't understand.

Furthermore, Jonathan, why you took it upon yourself to post a vague, public attack is even more mystifying when you could have brought it to the moderator team's attention, or asked Zephyr to. I understand your protective instinct, but not the method being used to protect.

Time and time again we have asked that these things are dealt with through the proper channels that are provided for everyone's use. I'm asking once again. If there is a problem, let us know. If you want feedback on the problem, again, let us know. We cannot do anything about attacks if we don't know they are going on.

Ann
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline DancerBoy

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2006, 12:56:08 AM »
This thread belongs in living with. 

I understand that we're trying to avoid a flame war and the "powers that be" are trying to just let it die.  But this is something that involves us all.

I really do see both sides of all of this.  But I'm one helluva lot more likely to agree with Jonathan.  I've also heard about this shit since before it hit the fan. 

Ann, I'm a little disappointed that you chose to label Jonathan's original message flame baiting. It wasn't.  This forum is here (or at least it was) here for us to discuss things that were important to us... And there was a time when things were not off limits.  Jonathan, I'm sure, posted in anger. Yes. I'm sure he could've found more, um, tactful ways to say what he wanted to say.  but my understanding when I became a member of this forum was that it was a refuge for us. To share good news, sadness, and all the other emotions that come with being HIV/AIDS affected people... Yes, WHITE HOT ANGER is an emotion we feel sometimes too... I don't see how this is something that should be off limits.  It''s a part of LIVING WITH this damned virus. It's not flame bait and you know that. Could it escalate to an all out flame war? Yes.  Is this cause worthy of an allout flame war? I remember a thread very recently about what we would give for a cure or to not be positive, and Zephie's fundraising could lead to that. I think a cure is certainly worth a short flame war that is quite common here among these forums... Especially these NEW forums.

The people that are worried about the validity of the fundraising effots that occur here on these forums have a simple option to not participate and that is their choice... Nobody will judge them for that. And the people that feel this is a worthy enough cause to donate will do that and will continue to do so.  It's a personal choice.  The people that are skeptical of this can steer clear...
Just my rambled thoughts...
-Danny
Boys are Stupid

Offline Cliff

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2006, 02:22:45 AM »
Hi Danny,

I think there are three issues going on here.  The first is the appropriateness of Jonathan's thread.  The second is whether fundraising should be allowed in the forums.  Third, Jonathan has informed us that a member of the forums, Zephyr, has received correspondence from folks that disagreed with her fundraising actions in the forums.

1) As it relates to the first issue, the appropriateness of Jonathan's thread, I completely agree with the comments Tim, Andy and Ann have given Jonathan.  There's nothing positive to be gained from this thread.  Maybe you don't remember or haven't seen this, but these sorts of threads have been started before in the forums.  Threads where an unknown, never-named person(s) has supposedly done something via PM's to hurt another member.  The end result is always the same, there is a ton of finger pointing, people getting defensive (for no reason) and someone is always WRONGLY accused of doing something.  I've been on the receiving end of one of these silly threads as has Marcus Maximus, (who no longer participates in the forums).

I find these sorts of threads very manipulative, hurtful, and quite honestly, very cowardly.  If someone wants to be man/woman enough to shed light on something....then shed light on the whole enchilada.  Lay it all out on the line so that those who have been accused of doing something, (via gossping PMs no-less), have a chance to defend themselves.  And if someone is bold enough to send Zephyr a note announcing their displeasure with her activities, then how is that being a coward?  Aren't they giving their opinion, straight from the horses mouth?

Anyways, I'm very disappointed in Jonathan.  He has done this before and he WRONGLY pointed the finger at Marcus Maximus, (after MM came in to denounce one of Jonathan's unnamed, finger-pointing threads in the forums, that one over his ex).  Do you remember that Jonathan?  I do.  What you did to MM was wrong and you're attempting to do this once again.  You speak about the forums being toxic but this behaviour is also toxic.  I hope you can at least ackwnoledge that.

2) Whether or not fundraising should be allowed in the forums, is a serious topic and one that deserves a serious debate.  Clearly there are people both for and against such activities, all of whom have nothing against Zephyr, (and may not even be aware of the assistance she has received).  However, none of us can seriously debate this topic, in this thread, and that's not fair.

3) I can understand why Zephyr confided in friends, if she was attacked.  What I don't understand is why that friend would post this sort of message publicly.  The end result could only be that fundraising gets banned from the forums.  At the end of the day, this thread has done more to hurt Zephyr's fundraising efforts than anything, anyone could have said or done via PMs.

Just my two cents.

Cliff

(Who is fully aware that he will now be branded as the cowardly, sick SOB who sent hurtful emails to Zephyr, as this was exactly the same result when he stuck his neck out on another one of these let's blame anyone and everyone in the forum, threads).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 02:26:36 AM by Cliff »

Offline DancerBoy

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2006, 03:21:51 AM »
LIVING WITH issue...
Boys are Stupid

Offline Ann

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2006, 06:27:58 AM »
Excuse me Danny, but nowhere in my post do I label Jonathan's thread as "flame-baiting".

Although that is exactly what it is.

So even you heard about this problem of Zephyr's before we did? This is what I don't understand. Why have so many people heard about this - excluding the only people who can actually do something about it? We still don't really know what has gone on, except what we can glean from this thread.

Here's the thing. The report buttons exist to avoid people feeling the need to take it upon themselves to launch attacks in the forum. Jonathan and/or Zephyr could have used the report button or they could have PMd one - or all - of the moderators. They both certainly seem to have PMd others about it, why not the moderators?

We have learned in the past that there is nothing to be gained by these "he said, she said, you know who you are" types of threads. All it does is cause flame wars and nothing constructive ever comes from them. That is why the original post in this thread is flame-bait. Jonathan has been a member of these forums for long enough to know where it would lead.

I don't understand why something like this wasn't dealt with through the proper channels. For me, that is the crux of the whole thing. All we ask is that instead of launching vague, public attacks, that people come to us with these kinds of problems. Are we asking too much?

And as for where this thread is located, that was Jonathan's choosing. I'm guessing he put it here precisely because he knew what was going to happen.

Ann

Edited to say that this thread was in Clinical Trials when I wrote my post. Tim Horn moved the thread afterwards. (and moved it back again!)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 10:02:30 AM by Ann »
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"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline kcmetroman

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2006, 08:17:22 AM »
Nobody can blame Jon for his attempts to protect someone he cares about.  I have been guilty of the same, with perhaps a few less explicatives, harsh nonetheless.  The difference being is that my comments were based on statements made within the sanctity of the forums themselves.  It is a bit unfair to bring a fantom individual to front and center. I think in this case, there was a mis-communication, and that this subject should be dropped and or chalked up as a learning experience.

Offline Moffie65

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  • Living POZ since 1983
Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2006, 09:15:13 AM »
OK guys.  As one of those that tried fundraising/selling; and without the Moderators permission, I have to chime in here. 

Personally, I feel sort of bad about this whole thing.  I did finally ask the mods about the efficacy of my plea for the purchase of my Christmas Stockings, and they very appropriately moved my thread to the "Off Topic" with a footnote that they were going to discuss this very subject, and come up with a solution that would be appropriate for the future.

Now Jonathan has come in and placed a thread about something which only some of us were privy to.  Yes Ann, Andy and Tim, there were more than a few of us who knew about this problem before you did.  Unfortunately/fortunately, that is the way this Forum has evolved, with some of us connecting off line and becoming fast friends, it is inevitable that you guys would be the last to know when this type of evolution exists.  I cannot say if this is a good thing or not, it just is what it is. 

Now, as for the actual fundraising that is going on.  I feel very strongly that this type of thing must be supported by the HIV community at large, simply because in the past, there was absolutely no support from Government for the research that needed to take place, and paid trips to the NIH were non-existent.  Now that Pharma. has been put on notice that underhanded money changing will not take place any more, they have become very hesitant to support any of the current NIH, or any government studies, and have made it virtually impossible to give money to individuals.  If I remember correctly, Pharma. was very supportive of situations like this in the past and donated large sums of money to fill the gaps not covered by Government studies.  Now we are placed into a situation where the NIH is asking these people to take time out of their lives to literally donate their genetic material with no compensation, outside of a round trip plane ticket and a one night stay in a motel.  I say bullshit!  Our fundraising here on AM is just a pittance, compared to the number of dollars that were thrown around back then. 

What am I trying to say?  Basically that whatever the reason; I think it is imperative that we keep some sort of fundraising effort afloat, simply because the history of HIV research is full of situations where people helped each other in a very personal and family sort of way.  This is something that we have become forgetful about, due to the fact that many of the original fighters in HIV have either expired or simply become very exhausted and are not capable of doing this type of work any more. 

Now you throw into the mix, a large population of women who are committed, affected and in a very large way, focused on helping to stem the tide of HIV infections which we all know are growing out of control in the Heterosexual community; and what are they supposed to do?  We in the Gay community have our own history, and our own way that we did things in the past to help promote scientific research, but now is not then, and our issues around this need are completely different.  Now we have a small group of people who are giving of themselves to futher the research with really no need to participate, as they are not faced with imminent death, such as we were back then.  For us to be helping them to achieve this end through donations of small amounts of  money, I personally think is a very small price to pay for keeping ourselves relevant and in the fight to conquer this disease.

I don't give a damn about what Jonathan said, or how he said it.  I think he was probably very guarded when he created this thread, as his emotions are about one tenth the severity of the internal conflict that I felt when I heard about this issue.  I also am not going to rake him over the coals, as I so much admire his resolve, and his self control in this issue.  Cliff, Jonathan doesn't deserve your wrath, as he is very much involved in this issue and his dedication to all things scientific leaves him wide open for criticism, whether deserved or not.  Be that as it may, I know you have very sharp opinions about what goes on here and that is fine, I would just ask you not to fire away at Jonathan, as speakers of the truth should not be the ones to receive the flack.  Only those who caused the problem in the beginning should be focused on.  Remember, truth often times is not welcomed by all, due to the fact that it usually requires the receiver of that Truth to make some adjustments in their personal belief system. 

Let's please not kill the messenger, but instead listen to the message.  We have a very acute need for this type of fundraising and whether or not we host it here is certainly up to POZ.com and the moderators of this site.  How they accomplish that is certainly up to them, but I would lobby very hard at this point, to keep this subject going and growing, because there is no money anywhere else and we need to support our own healing. 

In the end, a clear and concise message about any fundraising effort and the reasons why and to what end we are focused; are all things that need to be made perfectly clear to the reader, so that there can be no such incidents in the future.

In Love and Appreciation for intelligent people who can come together and discuss needs with peace and concern for each other.
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline zephyr

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    • Zephyr L.T.N.P. Foundation, Inc.
Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2006, 12:11:35 PM »
Someone recently called me "Joan of Arc" right here on these Forums, and I must admit that I understand a bit of how that woman felt.

I seem to be on 'trial' here, but the difference is that she knew who her dissenters were, and I do not---mine have not revealed themselves, they remain invisible.

Rather, an inference was made to me via a phone call two weeks ago, made by a long-standing Forum's member and from someone I hold in deep respect. They confirmed for me what I had been 'feeling' of recent past, that there was apparently a growing number of members who were taking offense at the LTNP story, as well as the "Zephyr Foundation" funding efforts.

It was suggested that the general opinion was this: All LTNP's were healthy, they could (and should) find jobs, and that they could not relate to the 'true' condition of living with HIV. That funding requests were ludicrous in this light.

That perhaps I should 'back off'.

My heart sank as I listened, as my greatest fears were being realized. My original trepidations about becoming a Forum's contributor with my story (being a LTNP) would spawn hard feelings and separate me from the community at large.

And so now, the truth of the matter becomes clear. I've read Tim Horn's reply to jonathan's thread, that indeed many emails and pm's to the Moderator's have expressed negative opinions about me and my efforts.

This morning I have received a reply email from Ann indicating that I should post to 'clear the air'. She also said that she cannot speak to me on the funding issues as there are discussions being held on the topic by the Owners.

For two months now, I have been encouraged by several members to contemplate 'formalizing' the Zephyr Foundation. I am announcing today that this will happen, detached totally from the AM site. It will be a separate entity completely.

I want to take this opportunity to thank each person who donated monies in April and May toward the NIH journeys. Your generosity and wholehearted support meant more to me (and Paul) than I can express. You know who you are, and I need to say the trips would not have happened without your assistance.

As for jonathan's and Matty's voiced support for me, I say THANK YOU TO MY CHAMPIONS. Through them, I know that my true essence has been recognized, and for me, that is priceless.

To those of you who view me with skepticism or dis-belief, you have the right to your perceptions. What I regret is that you did not contact me directly with your concerns, that you did not feel me worthy of a direct approach.

I have tried my best, I cannot do any more than that.

Zephyr

"It is character that communicates most eloquently."

Offline water duck

  • Member
  • Posts: 397
Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2006, 05:17:39 PM »
Dear Zephyr,

SO SO SAD that u should be rewarded with this  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I do think there is no word adequate enough to comfort you at this moment, therefore i shall not try !!

NOW LET ME TELL YOU , maybe it was meant to be this way !! so YOU MUST now give birth to
**************************ZEPHYR FOUNDATION********************************
outside of AM !! then there you can give them something more to talk about.

Siang

PS: i shall be there by your side

Offline OzPaul

  • Member
  • Posts: 410
  • a very blessed 29 year ltnp
Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2006, 06:39:30 PM »
Dear AM family

I feel that I must at last step in here. Zephyr has solely pure intent. No one should doubt that. Perhaps it's the function of a cynical world or a few individuals. As a very blessed 25 year LTNP my effort along with Zephyr is only to help researchers around the world uncover a possible cure/vaccine for HIV. We give many untold hours and days and travel countless miles in this quest. We derive NO FINANCIAL or PHYSICAL gain from our participation in these studies or through Zephyr Foundation.
The monies raised from Zephyr Foundation have gone towards defraying any out of pocket expenses as we participate in these studies. Period.
Zephyr Foundation will continue either here at AM or perhaps without. Zephyr and I will continue undaunted. We are dedicated in our cause to help all persons affected by HIV/AIDS. Our hearts are pure, our motives simple., nothing more and nothing less.

With continued Peace and Love
Paul

Offline Sdgirl

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2006, 09:32:23 PM »
I'm sorry, but this really PISSES me off!  I can not for the life of me figure out WHO would think that either Zephyr or Paul would not have ANYTHING but good intentions.  And lets be VERY clear, they are doing this for ALL OF US.  Yes people, selflessness, blood tests, being probed, prodded, scraped all that shit is being done FOR US.  Travelling and being away from their family and friends, using their own money to subsidise what we can not provide.

I am appalled and disgusted that ANYONE would ever doubt their intentions.  It saddens me to no end that our beautiful, warm, sensitive Zephyr is under attack.  I for one stand behind her, support her in every decision she chooses to make and honor her as a friend and a pioneer to us all.

Lisa
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.  Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.  It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.  We ask ourselves.."Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?  Actually, who are you not to be?"

Offline livingpositively

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2006, 09:45:56 PM »
I too must agree that it is simply astounding for someone to think that there are less than purely selfless intentions from both Zephyr and Paul.  I only regret that I was unable to help out this time.  I, for one, extend every gratitude to you both (as well as all of the other LTNPs that I am not familiar with) for your efforts and putting yourself out there for the "greater good".

It is equally unbelievable that one would think you don't "fit in."  Ok, so the disease process doesn't manifest itself the same in you as most others.  B.F.D.  It doesn't change the fact that you are still HIV positive.  And who's to say that there is a guarantee that LTNPs will forever remain so.  There would be no need to "study" them if it was a guarantee.  Things could completely turn around tomorrow (God forbid), but one never knows.

Again, you both have my utmost respect and gratitude for what you are doing.  Can't thank you enough.

And can't wait to meet you next weekend, Zephie.   ;D ;D ;D

Hugs,

Shane
4/6/07   CD4 450, % 23, No VL
2/19/07 CD4 487, % 26, VL 47,500
1/4/07   CD4 357, % 27, No VL
10/3/06 CD4 500, % 26, VL 18,000
7/6/06   CD4 530, % 29, VL 83,800
4/6/06   CD4 555, % 28, VL 13,000

Offline Teresa

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2006, 10:24:30 PM »
You know people like those that have complained about the zephyr foundation or the

way the funds were used are not..i repeat..are not worth waisting your time or

energy getting upset. They are probally  enjoying the fact that they have

caused such an uproar. I have not waisted any energy (except for this) on them at all.

I, for one donated to the Zephyr Foundation. The only reason im telling this is because

I have no problem with the way the funds I donated were used. I just wish i could have

donated more.

Zephyr and Paul do not fret and get upset over a few morons. Instead of thinking of 

them, think of all the people here that love you both for what you are doing. I appreciate

both of you and all your efforts.

Love to you both
Teresa




Hubby HIV+ 5/5/06
CD4:320
  %: 26.7
 VL: <20
Atripla (started it 8/24/06)
 

Offline Robert

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 01:18:46 AM »
Well, this could just be the beginning of our annual summer of discontent.  Last  year all the flame wars and finger pointing and accusations just about closed down the Toronto Gathering.  Let's not let it happen again.

This thread is not about fund-raising.  It's about making accusations without naming names.  Let's give it a rest.  I wish I hadn't said what I did at the beginning because I did the same thing last summer.  I thought I had learned my lesson.  If there are no names to name, then they're  probably aren't any names to begin with.  Give it a rest.

robert

I'M GOING TO MONTEAL!
..........

Offline Tim Horn

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Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 08:48:33 AM »
Dear Zephyr:

Thanks very much for explaining things more clearly for the sake of everyone's understanding. 

For what it's worth -- and I suppose I should have worded my comments above a bit more carefully -- the moderators didn't receive a single message suggesting that you (or Paul) are being devious, deceitful, or unworthy.  Your fundraising and accounting has been very transparent which says a lot about your honesty and integrity.   

The concerns we've received have simply questioned whether or not the Forums is the place for this type of fundraising.  The fact is, many people -- certainly not just members of the Forums -- become particularly guarded, uncomfortable, and doubtful when it comes to donating (or spending) money.  True, in online Forums as large as these, it's ALWAYS possible to skip past messages containing funding solicitations... but, even with this option, some people end up feeling guilt tripped, perhaps because they can't (or don't) share the same enthusiasm as their Forums peers, have been burned in the past (and we HAVE had people burned in the Forums in the past), or are simply wrestling with their own consciences. 

I cannot speak of the person who told the person who told you that "LTNP's were healthy, they could (and should) find jobs, and that they could not relate to the 'true' condition of living with HIV" and that "funding requests were ludicrous in this light."  If you ask me, this wreaks of jealosy and ignorance and certainly doesn't even BEGIN to represent the true feelings of MANY in the Forums.  In turn, I really don't think this type of he said/she gossip is worthy of Jonathan's or Matty's wrath, no do I think that it should in any way prevent you (or Paul) from feeling good about your altruistic participation in the NIH study or from seeking funding to cover necessary out-of-pocket expenses. 

Because of Eldon's deceit (or lazy organizational tactics) -- compounded by unscrupulous fundraising efforts that we regretfully overlooked in the past and e-mails of concern we've received about other fundraising initiatives in the Forums -- we really do need to come up with some guidelines.  Aside from from some Forums members expressing doubt about the use of Forums for fundraising purposes (and, yes, this has included doubts about the use of the Forums for the raising of funds for AMG), there are legitimate IRS concerns as well (it is possible that we would be asked to provide identifying and contact information for members soliciting donations -- income in the eyes of the IRS -- and never want to have to go that route). 

At any rate, more on the "big picture" of fundraising in the Forums later.  In the meantime, I hope that this message to you -- stressing that NONE of the "e-mails of concern" we've received question your integrity or candor -- will help clear up some of the misconceptions you and others may have. 

Tim Horn

Offline HIVworker

  • Member
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  • HIV researcher
Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2006, 09:16:25 AM »
Can someone tell me why the NIH aren't paying for all that stuff anyhow?
NB. Any advice about HIV is given in addition to your own medical advice and not intended to replace it. You should never make clinical decisions based on what anyone says on the internet but rather check with your ID doctor first. Discussions from the internet are just that - Discussions. They may give you food for thought, but they should not direct you to do anything but fuel discussion.

Offline zephyr

  • Member
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    • Zephyr L.T.N.P. Foundation, Inc.
Re: Hey, cowardly sons of fartknocks re: Zephyr Foundation
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2006, 11:55:40 AM »
Hello,

I'd like to take a moment and thank each of you for taking the time to respond to this issue. Pardon me if I do not name each of you personally, my time is short this day.

I do appreciate Tim's clarification this morning, and am breathing easier. I understand that there are farther reaching consequences to this 'fund raising' issue in respect to using these Forums as a venue, and this is one of the reasons that I have decided to endeavour the "Zephyr Foundation" apart from them.

I would like to say, also, that the NIH policies about reimbursement or coverage of out of pocket expenses is a thorny issue, not only with Paul and I, but apparently all other participants of these studies, as well. We got that message loud and clear from our staff contacts during our visit, and we are taking private steps to communicate with the Patient Representative, in order to open a dialogue.

You see, that's part of my distress. I have many irons in the fire (not complaining), each as important as the next, all demanding my personal attention. This particular cause is a definite priority, and time is of the essence. It is my sincere hope that Paul and I can affect change, but that can't happen until I shoot off a letter to this individual. There are only so many hours in the day.

With this, I will depart. I hope everyone takes a deep breath and relaxes. Just take care of yourselves, please.

Thanks,

Zephyr
"It is character that communicates most eloquently."

 


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