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Author Topic: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?  (Read 48992 times)

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Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #100 on: March 22, 2007, 01:06:26 AM »
right. You all can fight amongst each other all night. I have to get to bed.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2007, 01:20:14 AM »
right. You all can fight amongst each other all night. I have to get to bed.

For the record:  I am not- nor was I ever- really defending Jonathan.  He can take care of himself.  And while I do respect and admire the guy, I would hardly classify us as anything like "thick as thieves" or anything.  The bottom line is that I found your statement insulting and callous.  I was offended by it.  I also found the assertion that I follow blind devotion to JK (or anyone, for that matter) to be an insult to my intelligence.  That, more than anything else, is what I found so "vile" about the PM.

Hope you can sleep well.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2007, 01:22:09 AM »
Considering there are a certain amount of people on disability here I'm sure it was offensive to more than one person.  Not a particularly tactful comment to make on an HIV forum.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Bucko

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #103 on: March 22, 2007, 01:41:08 AM »
When I deplored the whole us/them breakdown in this forum, I described it as an essentially economic dichotomy. This is palpable proof of it.

Bullies on the forum? Nah...

Brent
(Who takes the bus to the food pantry, but also to work)
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Offline Val

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #104 on: March 22, 2007, 03:31:42 AM »
Guys,
What's the point of continuing this discussion?  This thread should be "locked", perhaps?  Anyway, you cannot blame any of the guys, be it on Jonathan, be it on Paul,  for being upfront, direct.  I, for one thing, appreciate sincerity no matter at what (high)  price it comes...
I see Paul defending himself, since he was attacked first.  Period

And I understand Jonathan's "repugnant"  (a strong word, perhaps?) emotions, since he has always attempted  to provide scientific, correct  data on the subject.  This, in itself, is really laudable.  On the other hand, I also see someone who's dealing with a lot of things right now, and may be a little over-sensitive!

Paul's remarks were very harsh, but at least he was sincere!   I would excuse myself to Jonathan if I was on his shoes.  Jonathan could excuse himself as well, right?  Why is it so difficult to come down your pedestals  and say "I am sorry"?

Val
___
___
P.S. Paul has often  "corrected" Jonathan's  general ( not scientific) assertions (like in this thread) in the past,  and he was almost always...right!  He did go a little bit too far this time, though, and I'm sure he'll come to realize that...
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 05:24:29 AM by Val »
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Offline Peter Staley

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2007, 08:48:49 AM »
If I had as much time on my hands as you do, I just may have read it.

Agreed -- this is out of line.  Longislander, please back away from this thread, and take a little breather, before you get yourself into trouble.

Peter

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2007, 08:51:47 AM »
Boy, when I had a vague suspicion this topic might result in a bit of heat I certainly wasn't far off!

So what have I learnt from this? Well, first off it was never actually my intention to change people's minds as a consequence of this thread - I'm not that arrogant. I was merely hoping to be clearer in my own mind why there is such a gap between what lots of pozzies think (there's no risk to oral sex) and what some of us report (that we believe we got infected that way). No, I'm not particularly 'stuck' on how I got infected - it's all water under the bridge - but whether I like it or not it does impact how I move forward; it's not easy to find your place amongst your fellow pozzies when a large proportion dismiss your experience as just plain denial, delusion, mistaken, etc. Well, it didn't just happen via immaculate transmission. Kinda makes me feel rather invisible, you know? It also hugely impacts on the decisions me, and other pozzies, need to make as we negotiate the future sexual encounters we'll have.

Has this discussion helped that quandary further along? Yes and no. It probably won't help me move forward - I'll just have to find my own way on that one, and I no doubt will. But I do better understand why the gap is there. The reality is that much is at stake on this issue (future sexual behaviour, past exposing of other people, etc) and that will make opinion very entrenched. People believe what they want to believe. Possibly on both sides of this argument.

I have taken note of all the references to scientific papers and the resulting claims that there is NO WAY you could get infected via oral sex. But I find myself wondering why it is that HIV prevention agencies as well as ID and other doctors across the world still won't say there is no risk to oral sex (no, they're not all under the spell of W). Not one (at least that I'm aware of) say "go head, suck and swallow all you like, you'll be fine". Why not? After all, there'd be little doubt that the general prevention effort on vaginal/anal sex would be helped enormously if they were able to give populations free reign on this behaviour. Is it that they're worried about getting sued by crackpots like me? They'd have nothing to fear because there is (to quote another member) "none, nada, zip, zilch, bupkis" evidence that I could support my prosecution case on. One huge conspiracy or perhaps it just isn't that clear cut after all?

For the avoidance of doubt: I am not claiming infection via oral sex to be anything other than a low risk (but not no risk). There will often be special circumstances. Someone mentioned oral health problems - did not apply in my case but I get the impression it often does. Whether or not you take cum in the mouth will obviously make a big difference (I did). I also suspect transmission is far more likely when viral load is exceptionally high (only really likely to be the case amongst those undiagnosed, whether newly infected or late stage - they're obviously not highly likely to be enrolled on any scientific study).

Finally, for what it's worth (and I realise my credibility account is running very low right about now): several people have sent me PMs to say that they too believe they were infected via oral sex but that they feel too intimidated to post in this thread, or too bruised from previous discussions on this subject to participate again. I find that quite telling and very depressing. Perhaps we should form an underground network on AM: the transmission route that dare not speak its name...  ;D
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 09:22:52 AM by keyite »

Offline Florida69

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2007, 09:30:11 AM »
Boy, when I had a vague suspicion this topic might result in a bit of heat I certainly wasn't far off!

Finally, for what it's worth (and I realise my credibility account is running very low right about now): several people have sent me PMs to say that they too believe they were infected via oral sex but that they feel too intimidated to post in this thread, or too bruised from previous discussions on this subject to participate again. I find that quite telling and very depressing. Perhaps we should form an underground network on AM: the transmission route that dare not speak its name...  ;D


What bothers me about this thread is that we as a supposed "community" are so eager to dismiss what we do not know or understand. Unless someone can show some irrefutable proof then, I stand behind what you believe happened.  As I said prior I have two friends who think that they were infected by giving oral.  There was very little support for the person needing it which was keyite and everyone wants to believe that you can not get HIV from oral, yet the pandemic still persists.  I can not with a clear conscience ever let anyone perform oral on me without a condom, but that just shows I guess that I care about people more than my own self gratification.  I did not see any other scientific studies other than the ones I mentioned, and what bothers me most is that we are all so eager to jump on the bus of you can't get HIV by giving oral is no way to properly educate someone as being a positive person and will not protect your potential partners.  Keyite, I normally do not engage on this board, for many reasons, honestly how this thread has gone has shown me how we are misguided the HIV community on a whole.  Keyite be true to yourself, and don't worry about what other people think, most are self involved with their own agendas.  It usually helps them sleep at night.  You should be among friends, people who have been there and done that, but instead you are forced to hide who you are, and how you feel you were infected.  Respect is the ultimate issue here, I respect you enough to tell you that you have to deal with things in your own way.  I have a friend who was infected via a tattoo, whether I believe him or not is of no consequence, what matters to me is that he is a good person and takes responsibility for his own actions.  You are doing that too, which will leave you respected by many.  I am sure for my comments I will receive my first warning or whatever comes with being scolded for not following the norm, no worries it will be a while before I would want to post in such a negative environment.  Again, keyite take care of yourself and don't concern yourself with what is normal, many times they are lost in the crowd... Good luck, D
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
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Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2007, 10:13:10 AM »
I ultimately worry about misinformation leading to additional discrimination against people living with HIV.  Hysteria surrounding transmission risks leads to irrational responses in the larger society.  People are being prosecuted for "exposing" others to HIV through sexual activity.  Often the people facing prosecution engaged in activities not known for transmitting the HIV virus, but people ignore science and buy into the hysteria. 

As Jonathan so brilliantly stated that inferring that saliva is an infectious bodily fluid moves HIV from being classified as an infectious disease to a communicable disease.  Such a change in categorization has serious political and social implications. 

We cannot dismiss all the scientific data everytime someone states that their experience has contradicted the science.  Until there is sufficient data to support that HIV is transmitted readily through oral sex, I cannot help having a degree of doubt when a person asserts that he or she became infected from having given or gotten oral sex.  I am not calling anyone a liar but I often doubt what others say when what they are saying contradicts over two decades of scientific research.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.  Some people discount science and believe that the world was made in a week and that a talking snake tempted Eve and caused her to commit the original sin.  I would not tell a person that he or she has no right to believe this, but I would note that science contradicts such assertions.  I think that is all that we are doing here, basically saying "Look, you are entitled to your opinion, but all  the scientific data states the opposite..."

Just remember what happens when we discount science and give into subjective analysis.

Offline woodshere

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2007, 10:19:32 AM »
I have avoided posting but think my experience might help explain the getting HIV from giving a blow job.  I have had unprotected anal sex three times in my life, only once did the other guy ejaculate inside me.  The last time being 6-7 years ago.  I have performed (and if I do say so myself some were quite a performance) oral sex let's see......hell there is no telling how many times.  Maybe......alot X 10 to the power of 2.  I found out I was positive last March.  It is awfully difficult to think that out of the countless dicks I have sucked that I contracted HIV from that one guy 6-7 years ago.

In my case I know there is no definitive way to prove how long I had been infected but when I got my initial CD4 count I asked my doctor that question.  His response was that based on my numbers he would have to say I was infected 6-7 years ago.  

I go with what the prevailing research says and how my time frame all adds up, but gosh sometimes its hard to discount all that time spent on my knees.

Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2007, 10:32:44 AM »
Dear All,

I don't like locking threads but I'm on the verge of doing so with this one.

Along with opinions and documentation for same there have been a number of gratuitously nasty swipes, of which yours Long Islander at Jonathan, "If I had as much time on my hands as you do, I just may have read it," is notably ugly.

That kind of mean spirited remark is unacceptable here, no matter whom it's directed at. Disagreeing about an issue is not an excuse for it.

Most who have participated here have striven to keep on the topic and refused to be drawn into flaming. Some of the veterans have refused to be drawn into battle and I appreciate their restraint.

I shake my head over how quickly some really nasty things can get said here when we already have all-too-many enemies to deal with in the outside world.   

I'm not sure what more there is to be said now on the original subject of the thread. 

For the timebeing I'm leaving the thread unlocked to leave open the possibility for some useful comments, but for sure I will close it down if there's anymore flaming. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 10:35:08 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2007, 10:52:07 AM »
What do I win for reliably predicting this thread would end up this way WAY back at the beginning of the thread?!?!

Some of us choose science as our model of beliefs.  Some of us choose anecdotal stories as our model.  It's really no different than a religious debate. 

Religious debates NEVER end well.  Like this one hasnt ended well.  Keyite was never admonished for posting what he did.  Some of us provided the science with which we form our beliefs.  Very politely I may add.  Keyite and Florida provided some counter points and a vigorous discussion ensued.

I personally am APPALLED by you Longislander.  You were WAY outta line with alot of your comments.  I too hope you are never in the position to have the KIND of time Jonathan has had available to him.  It surely was no vacation!  And it was INCREDIBLY rude for you to swipe at him like that.  Of all the things said on this thread, it was you I have lost respect for.  Not that it matters I know.  Not keyite or anyone else who holds firm in their beliefs.  I still respect them for who they are and what they believe even if I choose to believe otherwise. 

What say we all put this issue to bed.  No one is going to win this battle, and last time a member I hold in HIGH esteem left us for a long while and I would not like to see any of us leave over this.

Andrew
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thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2007, 11:01:06 AM »
My feelings as well. 

This thread is cursed!  CURSED, I say!
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Central79

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2007, 11:20:33 AM »
This is an interesting thread. I'm convinced that I got HIV through giving a blowjob. I definitely seroconverted in December 2005 (the flu does not give you persistant generalised lymphadenopathy) and I had not had unprotected anal sex at any point for about 4 years (and 4 HIV -ve test results) prior to that.

I'm not saying that I think it's a high-risk activity, in fact I think it's so low risk that most of the studies Jonathan provides in another thread aren't significantly powerful to seperate the risk of oral sex out from the rest.

At the end of the day, the science on this is all "anecdotal", in that it relies on people self-reporting their own behaviour. It's not as if there is anything that you can measure. So I'm not sure that Keyite's (and my) experience is necessarily any less scientific that these collections of anecdotes.

It doesn't make me feel any better that I got it this way. And I appreciate that it's very low risk, otherwise I wouldn't let the negative guy I love go down on me.

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Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2007, 11:59:51 AM »
This thread is like Castle Anthrax.

I'll be Zoot.

"And after the spankings, the oral sex!"
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline David_CA

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2007, 01:44:14 PM »
I asked this earlier, but got no answers.  Do the studies indicate that the receiver of the oral sex ejaculated in the mouth of the giver?  I know pre-cum can be infections during unprotected anal sex, and it's often hard, if not impossible, to tell if it's occurred.  During oral sex, it's really easy to tell, obviously.  I guess I'm wondering if the studies say that a mouth full of semen, swallowing that semen directly (without it actually being in mouth), or not allowing semen in the mouth at all are all in the same risk category.  I'm not debating the 'it's possible' or 'it's impossible' aspects of infection during oral sex.

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
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08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
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Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2007, 02:32:01 PM »
"Do the studies indicate that the receiver of the oral sex ejaculated in the mouth of the giver? "

Hi David,

What I recall from reading the UCSF study involving serodiscordant couples included a significant proportion who swallowed their partners semen regularly and not one neggie was infected.  This study spanned an entire decade and I believe there were apprx. 100 couples studied.

Scott

Offline allanq

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2007, 02:45:05 PM »
I'm sorry but the statistics don't show that you are "taking a big chance" when you give a blowjob.  At BEST its an extremely LOW risk but most likely only theoretical (according to the studies which is what we go by in the AM I forum).

What is a "theoretical" risk? I've seen this term used a number of times, and I've never understood exactly what it means.
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2007, 02:51:42 PM »
What is a "theoretical" risk? I've seen this term used a number of times, and I've never understood exactly what it means.

It is basically like the old saying, "You could get hit by a bus".

Kudos to David for diplomacy!  Very carefully done, D!   You traversed the landmines of this thread quite nicely!  :-*
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline David_CA

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2007, 02:53:51 PM »
It is basically like the old saying, "You could get hit by a bus".

Kudos to David for diplomacy!  Very carefully done, D!   You traversed the landmines of this thread quite nicely!  :-*

And watch out for those buses... especially if I happen to be driving, or worse, backing it up (the bus, that is  ;) )!

Thanks for the clarification, Scott.  I guess swallowing wouldn't be as 'bad' as swishing and gargling with it! 

David

Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
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Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #120 on: March 22, 2007, 03:03:24 PM »
"Thanks for the clarification, Scott.  I guess swallowing wouldn't be as 'bad' as swishing and gargling with it! "

Exactly.  Although I swished, swalllowed, gargled, you name it.  One of the things I have been advised to tell people when doing HIV prevention volunteer work is "Spit or swalllow, just do let it linger in your mouth too long".

Historically semen has been used as a beauty product known for smoothing the skin.  Perhaps this is where the term "facial" comes from.   ::)

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #121 on: March 22, 2007, 03:03:51 PM »
What is a "theoretical" risk? I've seen this term used a number of times, and I've never understood exactly what it means.

Theoretically we can time travel.  However, no one has done that yet.  Its the same thing.  Can the scientists rule out that it is impossible?  No.  Can they PROVE its possible? No.  They can only theorize that it can be done based on the scientific research of 100 years or more and the known laws of physics.


That help?  Or did I make it worse?
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Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #122 on: March 22, 2007, 03:16:13 PM »
Historically semen has been used as a beauty product known for smoothing the skin.  Perhaps this is where the term "facial" comes from.   ::)



Well, that goes a long way toward explaining how I've maintained my Hi-Pro Glow.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #123 on: March 22, 2007, 03:16:51 PM »
Finally, for what it's worth (and I realise my credibility account is running very low right about now): several people have sent me PMs to say that they too believe they were infected via oral sex but that they feel too intimidated to post in this thread, or too bruised from previous discussions on this subject to participate again. I find that quite telling and very depressing. Perhaps we should form an underground network on AM: the transmission route that dare not speak its name...

Key,

For my part I don't think your credibility is running low at the moment. I said earlier that I think you have every right to ask the questions that you did and expect reasonable answers.

Which is what you received. You even got Jakey trying out his Live from the Improv routine. ;)

However I do get a little bit tired of this "people feel too intimidated to post" argument. Why? Because a large number of us (who have formed our view based on the peer reviewed science that abounds on this issue) dispute oral sex as a transmission route?

Is this what things have come to?

MtD

Offline NycJoe

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #124 on: March 22, 2007, 04:21:21 PM »
I am just waiting for the...its impossible to get hiv through oral sex.  Until then..its possible.  Chances are next to nil..but hey..chances are next to nothing I will win the mega millions lottery tomorrow..but someone will.  It is theoretically possible.  So who am I to tell someone HOW they got something?

Offline Lis

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #125 on: March 22, 2007, 05:01:30 PM »
What NycJoe said!!!!

hardly ever does not mean never
poz 1986....

Offline pozcutie

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #126 on: March 22, 2007, 10:34:35 PM »
I, too, got infected via oral sex.  I seroconverted in July 2000.  I had been testing negative on a semi-monthly basis for that entire year, up through May, and had been using a condom for all anal sex (which was insertive on my part). 

In May of that year, I started seeing someone, and we had only had oral sex, when I got sick: flu-like symptoms, thrush, etc.  Turns out that I got mono and HIV from him.  I even made a point of contacting anyone I'd had sex with during the six months prior, to make sure that they were okay, and all were neg.  Even though transmission via oral sex is "negligible" by some calculations, that does not mean impossible. 

There are factors which can increase the possibility of transmission, such as: the viral load of the HIV+ partner; brushing and flossing prior to giving head (exposes the gums, etc.); and allowing the semen to linger, as it were (perhaps if I'd just swallowed, I wouldn't have been exposed as much).

So, the lessons learned are: don't kiss 18yo boys (you can get mono); don't floss before going down on someone; and 'tis better to swallow than to snowball.

Offline Val

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #127 on: March 23, 2007, 05:45:42 AM »
I know that people can defend themselves whenever the need arises, but I don't understand why PM someone when you're feeling THAT concerned about something!  Wouldn't it just be much simpler if everyone concerned about  "trasmission via oral sex" just stated plain and simple their stories?  Ans since this subject keeps re-surfacing around these forums and,  therefore  feeding some vivid exchanges between members,  we could deal with them once and for all...! 

Val
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Offline chaton

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #128 on: March 23, 2007, 06:47:50 AM »
Hi key

Sorry that you hit upon the one truly damaging issue with aidsmeds forum, ie oral sex infection negationism. Some of the most active, respected and vocal long timers have consistently denied oral sex hiv infection despite the consensus warnings of western health ministries to their populations. Please note for instance that in France, where I reside, and where the HIV virus was first isolated by Pr Luc Montagnier, the health ministry and Act Up have launched a campaign to raise awareness about hiv infection through fellatio.

Please do not take too seriously the endless clubbing about "peer reviewed science has shown that it is not possible". This is not true. Do read the articles, by all means.

1/ If you have some statistical training, you will see that these articles prove that the lower bound for the range of probability to get infected orally by a seropositive partner is zero, not that the higher bound is zero. Think of it this way ; you take 1000 people who play every week at the lottery and after ten years not ONE has won the big prize. Does it show that no one ever does? That you can play the lottery with absolute confidence that you will never win the big prize? That people who claim thay have won the big prize are liars and that peer reviewed science has shown that? Well, no. It shows that it is very unlikely (one could from these paper calculate a higher bound for the probability of infection from a seropositive partner at one in x millions with a confidence ratio of 95%, one in y millions with a confidence ratio of 99%)

2/ Furthermore these articles say nothing of the risk of infection by seronegative partners with sky high viral loads in their sperm(ie those infected say two weeks prior).  

Regards

Cyril

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #129 on: March 23, 2007, 07:22:16 AM »
Believe me I have no dog in this hunt, but why not start a new content thread entitled (CSI: NY) how I became HIV positive...that's my story and I am sticking to it. Argument by anecdote, chicken or the egg, ad nauseum.

I would be interested in Newt's or Tim Horn's opinions on the subject.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #130 on: March 23, 2007, 10:21:38 AM »
No one's been known to have gotten HIV from a mosquito..........yet.       :o



Cursed, I say........cursed.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline bear60

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #131 on: March 23, 2007, 10:30:53 AM »

Do you think its ok to wash a dildo out in the sink?  I have no dishwasher to put it in and am afraid I might reinfect myself.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Florida69

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #132 on: March 23, 2007, 02:02:19 PM »
Joel, that is really funny............. 

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Offline bocker3

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #133 on: March 23, 2007, 03:37:39 PM »
I dare say that none of the studies listed in this thread make a declaration like, "Oral sex poses no risk of transmission."  The evidence certainly points to the fact that there is extremely low risk associated with oral sex -- the fact that no DOCUMENTED cases exist, does not translate into an impossibility.  It is virtually impossible to prove a negative here, because each individual is different -- that is why one can not entirely ignore anecdotes.  One should never use anecdotes to make sweeping assessments, but neither should they be swept under the rug.  Outliers exist in scientific studies too!

Do I believe oral sex is high risk -- NO.  In fact, with my VL undetectable, I have no problem with my negative partner giving me a blow job (of course, no cumming in his mouth).  However, I do believe there is some risk, albeit extremely low, which is why I did not let him blow me while I had a detectable VL.  This did, naturally, involve back and forth discussions between us -- to get us both to a point where we were comfortable with the risk.

So, do I think there are people who got infected via oral sex -- how the hell do I know -- but if there are, there probably aren't many.  Should oral sex be discounted as a meaningless risk -- that is for individuals to decide.  Will this cause some WW's to worry even more -- perhaps, but when there are those who worry that protected sex puts them at risk, I guess there isn't much we can do to stop them from worrying.

There have been posts here that seem to paint this issue as black and white -- if it were, then science would be stating that there is NO RISK from oral sex.  This is, I'm afraid, a grey area.

Now before anyone starts saying that I don't know what I'm talking about -- I have a degree in Epidemiology and Biostatistics, so don't go there.

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #134 on: March 23, 2007, 05:37:37 PM »
Matt Mee, chaton, bocker3,

Thank you all, that makes a lot of sense. I have the utmost respect for science but I'm not really surprised to hear there are phenomena it will struggle to measure and therefore document. Obviously doesn't mean they couldn't possibly be real.

Three of us in this thread have stated we believe we were infected via oral sex. A few more have contacted me via PM. In a very limited sample, i.e. those that happened to read this thread. By no means representative, of course, but you have to wonder where the tipping point towards even the slightest whiff of doubt lies for those that insist there is NO WAY you could get infected via oral sex.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 05:43:29 PM by keyite »

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #135 on: March 23, 2007, 05:42:34 PM »
Key, it IS good to have the difference of opinions and experiences that have been expressed here in a respectful setting. 

At the same time I also think let's differentiate between the acts of giving oral and receiving it.

The doubts seem to be strictly in relation to those who say they have become infected through performing oral on a guy, NOT from those who have been sucked, which is a very important difference to make. 

 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2007, 05:45:13 PM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #136 on: March 23, 2007, 05:45:24 PM »
The doubts seem to be strictly in relation to those who say they have become infected through performing oral on a guy, NOT from those who have been sucked.

Agreed.

Offline Merlin

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #137 on: March 23, 2007, 06:07:18 PM »
If giving and one can receive, then will it mean that everyone who used to love giving will stop overnight???  ;D
I doubt so. It probably just means that most will modify and give cautiously in future. Or will there will be extremes where some will just stop giving and start receiving instead, unless of cos that too proves an issue? Then it's truly one's personal decision how to moderate /minimise the risks involved.

Interesting seeing something so simple morph into something so complicated....sure sucks doesn't it? :D ::)

Peace everyone.
Michael
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Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #138 on: March 23, 2007, 06:18:54 PM »
"...start receiving instead, unless of cos that too proves an issue?"

That was my point, Michael. The scientific  and medical communities are in agreement on that one and it's well documented. Having someone give you a blowjob is NOT a risk for transmission for the one getting serviced.

I'm repeating that again now because I don't want to see a seed of doubt planted about that because it has no basis in HIV-science, and your comment seems to me to raise doubt about it again.

Andy Velez

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #139 on: March 23, 2007, 06:24:06 PM »
"The scientific  and medical communities are in agreement on that one and it's well documented. Having someone give you a blowjob is NOT a risk for transmission for the one getting serviced."

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::)

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #140 on: March 23, 2007, 06:56:10 PM »
I'll dare another post on this thread because of this:

I keep reading a bunch of people saying that they are OK with this and that oral-wise with their partners because of their VL being undetectable.  It has been my understanding (see the current fabu thread "Undetectable, but why not "gone"? by milker in Treatment Questions for more) that, while VL is guaged by a blood draw, the actual amount of virus present in other parts of the body (read: testicles.  read: SEMEN) may be higher than that because the meds may have less ability to corner the virus there.  This, I believe, is a similar scenario in the brain also.  Am I correct or incorrect on this?   

I think this is a tie-in situation here that should get some mention here and perhaps expounded on in the other thread. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline bocker3

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #141 on: March 23, 2007, 07:07:01 PM »
I keep reading a bunch of people saying that they are OK with this and that oral-wise with their partners because of their VL being undetectable.  It has been my understanding (see the current fabu thread "Undetectable, but why not "gone"? by milker in Treatment Questions for more) that, while VL is guaged by a blood draw, the actual amount of virus present in other parts of the body (read: testicles.  read: SEMEN) may be higher than that because the meds may have less ability to corner the virus there.  This, I believe, is a similar scenario in the brain also.  Am I correct or incorrect on this?

You make a good point -- but when assessing what risk you and your partner find acceptable, you have to go with what you have.  It's always important to remember that undetectable doesn't mean gone.  Additionally, while <50 in the blood doesn't necessarily mean <50 in the cum, one can reasonably say that there is still less in the cum with an undetectable VL than with one of 100,000.
Again, because having my partner blow me isn't completely risk free for him, we had to figure out where we were comfortable drawing the line. 

Mike
Atripla - Started 12/05
Reyataz/Norvir - Added 6/06
Labs - Pre-Meds
Sep05 T=350/25% VL98,559
Nov05 288/18%  47,564
Current Labs
May2013 691/31% <20

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #142 on: March 23, 2007, 07:09:50 PM »
Yes, it is about mutually agreed upon parameters. 

I just wanted to get that point in print on here for now and future eyeballs to see.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline vallyguy

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #143 on: March 24, 2007, 02:09:34 AM »
Key,

I read your original posting, and many other subsequent ones on the subject, with great interest. It upsets me somewhat to hear so many accuse you of lying or being in denial because, you see, I'm in the same boat. I seroconverted 11 years ago. Before that I was tested every year and always tested negative. Like you, I assumed that oral sex was nearly 100% safe based on the mere fact that, if it weren't, as you said, we'd have had a much worse epidemic than we currently have. Consequently I limited my behavior almost exclusively to oral sex. The year I converted I had had anal sex only one time. I was a top, I wore a condom and my partner was negative. So the chances of an immaculate infection happening through that encounter are even more remote than getting infected via oral sex.

I've talked to my doctor (a top professional in the field) at length over the years and he can only surmise that I happened upon someone with a very high viral load at the time (this was just before PIs were introduced) when either I had a small cut in my mouth or my immune system was compromised at the time. Keep in mind that I never let anyone cum in my mouth since the epidemic began. I did have a case of Hepatitis during that year and he said that studies confirm that the likelihood of contracting HIV while fighting Hep (whether it be A, B or C) can increase fifty-fold.

Again, like you, I hold no judgement against anyone no matter how they became infected. It's a virus. Not a sin. But also, like you, I'm much more concerned about infecting someone else. There is some consolation that with an undetectable viral load, I'm much less likely to spread the virus to someone else. Nevertheless, I'm now convinced that nothing is 100% safe. Would I tell anyone out there to stop having oral sex? No way. We make choices. I chose to take that risk. And although the risk was minuscule, once you are on the wrong side of a statistic, it doesn't much matter.

VG

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #144 on: March 24, 2007, 07:13:11 AM »
Hi Valley,

Thank you, it was fascinating reading your story and perspective. Welcome to the forums - hope to hear from you again... :)

Offline Central79

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #145 on: March 24, 2007, 07:30:34 AM »
Hey VG

Welcome to the forums. It's sad to hear another story of infection via oral sex - I never let anybody cum in my mouth either, but I guess either the other guy had a high VL, or I had a cut in my mouth, or both. This actually makes me feel a little bit better in that the other guy may have been a recent seroconverter himself, and consequently may not have known he was positive - it makes me easier to let go of the "non-disclosure" issue.

I think there's a lot of resistance to believing in this mode of transmission. Whilst I agree with Andy, that the risk of getting HIV from receiving a blow job is non-existent, I do think that the risk of getting HIV from giving oral to be a small but present risk. I think that it is one that becomes more apparent the safer people get, but at the moment is still swallowed up (no pun intended) by the risks of concurrent anal sex. I don't understand how there can be no cases of HIV transmission via oral sex reported - I reported it! I have a feeling that people are inclined to discount it if you've been having anal sex at the same time, even if that was protected.

I think in the UK there's a resistence amongst HIV+ gay men to accept the risk of tranmission via oral sex, because it would morally compel disclosure, which is not the law here and is down to the individual. By denying the possibility of transmission, we can argue against disclosure. I always feel in good company here, where the concensus is that you should always disclose. I'm not sure what prompted some of the earlier vitriol against Keyite, but there are obviously strong feelings under the surface here, to do with disclosure or other things.

It has been my understanding (see the current fabu thread "Undetectable, but why not "gone"? by milker in Treatment Questions for more) that, while VL is guaged by a blood draw, the actual amount of virus present in other parts of the body (read: testicles.  read: SEMEN) may be higher than that because the meds may have less ability to corner the virus there.  This, I believe, is a similar scenario in the brain also.  Am I correct or incorrect on this?   

I just want to comment on this to. Thunter is correct - undetectable VL in the blood is not always reflected in the semen. There's a general co-relation, but spikes in seminal VL can occur w/o any spikes in plasma VL. The scenario in the brain depends on what regimen you are on - some of the HIV drugs are very effective in the brain, and actually suppress VL faster than in the blood. These are AZT (zidovudine, Retrovir), d4T (stavudine, Zerit), 3TC (lamivudine, Epivir), abacavir (Ziagen), nevirapine (Viramune), efavirenz (Sustiva) and indinavir (Crixivan).

...once you are on the wrong side of a statistic, it doesn't much matter.

VG

Totally agree.

Matt.

Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline manhattanman

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #146 on: March 24, 2007, 11:18:48 AM »
No you are not barking mad.
HIV is transmitted with blood to blood or semen to blood contact.
That can happen with oral sex.
Gum inflammation, often times not visible to the naked eye, is a route of transmission.
Is it possible ? yes. Is it probable ? Depending on the circumstances, yes.


Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #147 on: March 24, 2007, 11:29:04 AM »
No you are not barking mad.
HIV is transmitted with blood to blood or semen to blood contact.
That can happen with oral sex.
Gum inflammation, often times not visible to the naked eye, is a route of transmission.
Is it possible ? yes. Is it probable ? Depending on the circumstances, yes.

"Yes possible" and "yes probably" are some pretty muscular assertions.

Your documented evidence to back those statements would be?

Look:  I am not trying to shout down anyone who wants to say that they got it this way or that.  In fact, I think it is important to look into it- not so much for we who have already crossed over into Pozville, but for those who haven't to be better armed to protect themselves.

I just keep wanting to see something, ANYTHING concrete to back up this kind of declaration.  There appears to be science to support the other side of the argument.  I'm waiting to see it for statements like these as well.

One thing about this thread and posts like that one:  It will likely make AM more of a one-stop shop for all things HIV.  Folks will be able to get unsubstantiated fear fodder completely in-house.  No need to shop at The Body for it or anything.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline NycJoe

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #148 on: March 24, 2007, 11:39:53 AM »
I appreciate that this thread..which had been going in the other direction of drama, smart ass comments and basically making others whom feel differently on the subject as complete idiots has come around to thoughtful insights from both sides.  I think science is very important.  But if you look at the history of science and see how many mistakes have been made and how some peer reviewed science is very biased, I always take science as less than 100% truth.  Science is not my god, however I definitely take it into major consideration knowing it is less than perfect.  I hope the debate can continue in a thoughtful manner from both sides without condescension.  Joe

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #149 on: March 24, 2007, 12:05:57 PM »
Science isn't my God, either...but I'd place more faith in some evidence rather than none.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

 


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