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Author Topic: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?  (Read 49361 times)

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Offline scotttt

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  • Posts: 146
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2007, 01:47:42 PM »
Infection via saliva was not stated, nor implied in post #25.  Saliva didn't become part of the conversation until you stated it, when I gave you that point in post #34.

You mentioned the possibility of getting infected by receiving a blowjob if one not circumcised.  Saliva is the bodily fluid that the mouth contains.  Within saliva there can be small amounts of blood, but saliva as such is  not an infectious agent. 

In light of the fact that there as not been one documented case of HIV transmission from receiving oral sex, you still asserted the possibility.

Many things can happen in theory.   Ann and the others have repeatedly dispelled such transmission misconceptions routinely in the "Am I Infected" section.  She and the other moderators have strongly asserted that getting HIV from receiving oral sex is not a real world risk.  One of the arguments she and the others have made is that saliva is not an infectious agent. 

To suggest that one is at risk of becoming infected with HIV by receiving a blowjob seems a bit over the top. Expounding on such "what if "scenarios when it comes to something as serious as HIV transmission seems to be highly irresponsible given how much paranoia about the transmission of this disease has been used to justify discrimination against HIV positive people.



Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2007, 01:51:58 PM »
"Girl, what is wrong with you??  Why are you still going on with me? "

Thunter, please, let's stick to the issue.  You keep directing this thread to me rather than to the subject at hand. 

I however continue to talk about the issue at hand.   Please, let us stick to the topic and don't hijack this thread with your personal attack on me.  Let's be grown ups here please.  I say we just stop this bickering and stick to the more important issues at hand. 

The issue is whether or not there is a risk of getting infected with HIV from receiving oral sex. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 02:04:49 PM by scotttt »

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2007, 02:00:32 PM »
In the interest of the peace, I respectfully and completely withdraw from this thread. 


Edited to remove a funny but probably unhelpful picture.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 02:02:57 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2007, 02:02:58 PM »
I said this wasnt going to end well.


And thunter... what pills?  You lost me!
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2007, 02:03:16 PM »
Thunter,

Thank you. 

Peace

Scott

Offline milker

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2007, 02:03:31 PM »

Hence the name Milker, I suppose.  I will confess that there's something I find rather hot about that post.

Yup, hence the name Milker  ;D ;D ;D
Calm down, calm down lol
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2007, 02:05:56 PM »
I said this wasnt going to end well.


And thunter... what pills?  You lost me!

Dammit!  You and Matty are messing me up!  That was his picture above:  Chill Pills.


EDITED FOR:  OK...NOW I withdraw from this thread so I can stop getting all these posts hurled at me.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2007, 02:07:10 PM »
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh gotcha.  He is the official "dealer" of those.  No way id be caught selling on his turf!
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #58 on: March 21, 2007, 02:12:20 PM »
Thunter,

Thanks again ;)

Offline Florida69

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2007, 02:21:33 PM »
Well, in offering some support for the newly virally enhanced here is some scientific proof:


http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/sexual_health/sti/oralsex.htm
For the person receiving oral sex, there's little chance of contracting HIV, although it's difficult to pinpoint when HIV has been transmitted because people rarely engage in only one type of sexual activity. In the case of fellatio (oral sex on a man), the HIV virus theoretically could gain entry from the mouth to the opening on the tip of the penis, or through an open cut or lesion on the penis. If you receive oral sex, however, you mainly expose yourself to saliva, which has negligible concentrations of HIV.
For the cunnilingus (oral sex on a woman) recipient, the chance of HIV transmission is also low, although the entire vagina is a mucous membrane through which, theoretically, the virus can be transmitted. A woman receiving cunnilingus is more at risk of getting herpes or gonorrhea from her partner than HIV.
The risk of HIV infection is greater for the partner who performs oral sex. A person performing oral sex on a woman should avoid it during her period, for menstrual blood can carry the HIV virus. Research presented at the 7th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections in February of 2000 concluded that 8 of 122 cases in an HIV-transmission study were possibly attributable to performing oral sex on a man. Of these 8 infected people, some reported having had recent dental work or having cuts in their mouths, suggesting that HIV transmission by oral sex is associated with cuts, lesions, or irritation of the tissues in the mouth.
Recent studies show that 26% of sexually active teenagers think it’s impossible to get HIV through oral sex, and 15% more don't know whether people can contract HIV this way. The truth: it is possible. (Source: CDC)
http://www.coolnurse.com/aids.htm
"Safe Sex" = using latex condoms with every act of sex.
Use dental or vaginal dams with every act of oral sex. Use a latex condom every time you perform oral-penile sex (fellatio).
Use plastic food wrap, a latex condom cut open, or a dental dam when performing oral-vaginal sex (cunnilingus) or oral-anal sex (anilingus) (source: CDC). Use a condom every time you have anal sex.
These methods provide a physical barrier to HIV transmission and will also help keep you safe from other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), many of which can increase your risk of contracting HIV or giving it to someone else.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/SHPRC/ch4_ora.html
HIV can be passed through unprotected oral sex, but it is more likely to be passed during unprotected penetrative sex. The infected semen/precum or vaginal fluid must enter the body through a cut or sore in the mouth or esophagus. The virus is unlikely to be passed from a person’s mouth to another person’s genitals.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn1156
The results support other research showing that oral sex is a low-risk activity for transmitting HIV, and that saliva has anti-HIV properties. However, several cases have been reported which suggest that oral sex can result in HIV transmission, so the latest findings must be interpreted cautiously, experts say.
"Low risk is not the same as no risk," says Ronald Valdiserri, deputy director of the Center for Disease Control's National Center for HIV, STD and TB Prevention. "We do know that it is possible to become infected with HIV after oral sex."
http://www.uhs.uga.edu/sexualhealth/oral_sex.html
Is Oral Sex Safe?
Some individuals consider oral sex to be a safe or no risk sexual practice. Many people feel safe engaging in this behavior because there is no risk of pregnancy. There are, however, other considerations. Many sexually transmitted infections (STIs) such as gonorrhea, herpes, hepatitis B, HIV, and syphilis can be transmitted through oral-genital contact. The risk of contracting chlamydia and HPV through oral sex is much less, although possible. It is difficult to determine exact rates of transmission of STIs through oral sex since many sexually active individuals practice oral sex in addition to other, higher risk activities, such as vaginal and/or anal sex. In addition, if a male ejaculates during oral sex, then the risk to his partner becomes higher.
HIV
HIV may be transmitted through oral-genital contact when HIV in semen, vaginal secretions or blood enters the mucous membranes or abrasions in the mouth and throat. Saliva is not responsible for transmitting HIV. Deep mouth-to-mouth kissing is not a risky behavior for HIV unless blood is present in the mouth (i.e. from sores, dental procedures, flossing, brushing, etc.).
The risk of HIV transmission from an infected partner through oral sex is much smaller than the risk of HIV transmission from anal or vaginal sex, but there is still a risk.5 Several co-factors can increase the risk of HIV transmission through oral sex, including: oral ulcers, bleeding gums, genital sores, and the presence of other STIs.
The Options Project found that 7.8% (8 of 102) of recently infected men who have sex with men in San Francisco were probably infected through oral sex. Most of these men believed that the risk was minimal or non-existent. Nearly half (3 of 8) of these cases reported oral problems, including occasional bleeding gums. Almost all (7 of 8) of these men reported oral contact with pre-ejaculate or semen.6 More recent studies have placed the risk at a much lower rate, .06% for oral-penile contact with an HIV-positive partner and .04% with partners of unknown status.5
When scientists describe the risk of transmitting an infectious disease, like HIV, the term "theoretical risk" is often used. Very simply, "theoretical risk" means that passing an infection from one person to another is possible, even though there may not yet be any actual documented cases. "Theoretical risk" is not the same as "likelihood". In other words, stating that HIV infection is "theoretically possible" does not necessarily mean it is likely to happen—only that it might. Documented risk, on the other hand, is used to describe transmission that has actually occurred, been investigated, and documented in the scientific literature.
For HIV, there have been documented cases of HIV being transmitted to a receptive partner through oral-penile contact, even in cases when the insertive partner didn't ejaculate. Likewise, there have been a few cases of HIV transmission most likely resulting from oral-vaginal sex. As of December 2000, there has only been one published case of HIV transmission associated with oral-anal contact,7 though other studies have shown that oral-anal contact is a marker for other high risk behaviors.
Lane, T. & Palacio, H. (December, 2003). Safe Sex methods HIV InSight Knowledge Base Chapter. Retrieved January 5, 2004, from www.hivinsite.org/InSite.jsp?page=kb-07-02-02


Bro, hang in there, it does get easier.  Sometimes you have to fight ignorance with tolerance and back it up with some science...  I wish you the best, take care.......................... D



Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2007, 02:38:09 PM »
1. I was joking calling the author an idiot and pM'ed him.
2. Surveys are not science. Science is testing in a controlled atmosphere where there can be no question as to the results. Results from questionaires should not be considered science.
3.I respect everyone's right to perform oral sex, but if I was negative I sure wouldn't be performing any oral sex without protection, which means its not worth doing at all. Thats just my opinion.
4.Being HIV+ is not some badge of honor or joke, it can destroy your life as well as the lives of those you love. The guilt of the damage you have done or might do to others is a far greater weight than anything you suffer personally. Thats just me. I dont have sex anymore,but I sure think about it a lot.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2007, 03:02:43 PM »
1. I was joking calling the author an idiot and pM'ed him.
2. Surveys are not science. Science is testing in a controlled atmosphere where there can be no question as to the results. Results from questionaires should not be considered science.
3.I respect everyone's right to perform oral sex, but if I was negative I sure wouldn't be performing any oral sex without protection, which means its not worth doing at all. Thats just my opinion.
4.Being HIV+ is not some badge of honor or joke, it can destroy your life as well as the lives of those you love. The guilt of the damage you have done or might do to others is a far greater weight than anything you suffer personally. Thats just me. I dont have sex anymore,but I sure think about it a lot.


Oh Jakey. You so craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzyyyyyyyyyyyy. :-*

MtD

Offline Florida69

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2007, 03:02:57 PM »
2. Surveys are not science. Science is testing in a controlled atmosphere where there can be no question as to the results. Results from questionaires should not be considered science.
4.Being HIV+ is not some badge of honor or joke, it can destroy your life as well as the lives of those you love. The guilt of the damage you have done or might do to others is a far greater weight than anything you suffer personally. Thats just me. I dont have sex anymore,but I sure think about it a lot.

Please feel free to check any sources that you negate, as they are backed up by the United States Centers for Disease Control or University Studies such as Brown and Stanford, and I am only posting here to offer support not to make somone feel badly for how they were infected or the burden they are carrying being newly diagnoised.  I would never post something that I did not believe to be true.  I really don't think anyone wears HIV as a badge or joke, it is a very serious condition, and should be taken that way.  With that said, sometimes in life you have to embrace the good and move past the bad otherwise it will consume you and make what is left of your life full of strife.  Enjoy today for tomorrow may not come.  Good luck.................. D
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2007, 03:05:47 PM »
Dear All,

Jack PM'd me as well to say his use of "liar" was meant ironically. I am sure it's true. No matter what we may agree or not on, I have never doubted Jack's integrity. I did caution him that the use of irony can be missplaced in the Forums, especially when the topic generates as much heat amongst members as this one has.

Thanks for the clarification, Jack.

Cheers,
Andy Velez

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2007, 03:09:16 PM »
Oh yeah... you use irony on this forum at your own risk.

Take it from one who knows.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Val

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2007, 04:56:28 PM »
Same thing here.  When I'm replying to topics such as this one, I make sure I read twice what I type...  No irony!

I happen to know two guys who affirm they have been infected by just giving blow jobs.  Should I doubt their sincerity, or should I just thinking they are naive?
Tough question, if you ask me.
I have a tendency in trusting people --- not judge them!  And I believe in what  Keyite says.

Val
___
___
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2007, 05:46:06 PM »
 I have no doubt that what Keyite says about his infection is true. I know when I seroconverted, and it traced back to the one and only encounter I had in the prior 90 days, and the encounter was 4 weeks back.

The first quote Florida69 posted makes a lot of sense. Especially about the part where the sex act doesn't always end with just a one-sided blow job.

 I know how I was likely infected, attempted anal receiving, ejaculation on lower back followed. I can only guess some splattered into the slightly battered anal entry~ Anythings possible.

I was under the impression, and may be quite wrong about this, that the + persons VL was a contributing factor in the likelihood of infecting someone else. In my case, since the guy didn't know and was likely recently infected, his VL was probably pretty high. I'm wondering, during all the scientific studies, surveys, etc, and the serodiscordent couples involved, was the + partner undetectable due to meds?

Keyite, I believe you. I'm not saying it's high risk, but I won't believe the answer is no risk.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2007, 05:47:18 PM »
Same thing here.  When I'm replying to topics such as this one, I make sure I read twice what I type...  No irony!

I happen to know two guys who affirm they have been infected by just giving blow jobs.  Should I doubt their sincerity, or should I just thinking they are naive?
Tough question, if you ask me.
I have a tendency in trusting people --- not judge them!  And I believe in what  Keyite says.

Val
___
___

One must, I feel, use a certain amount of logic, experience, science, and "what the hell do I get out of this?" when it comes to discussing those who swear up and down that they were infected via oral sex.

1.  I have not infected a negatron via oral sex or any other sex for that matter.  Of course, I don't ejaculate into their mouths, and this has been discussed beforehand.  I also had a lot of unprotected oral sex, with negative HIV results for years.  Unprotected buttsex?  Oops.

2.  No one has, to my knowledge, been able to follow someone around for all of their sexual exploits to see exactly what they've been up to.

3.  Furthermore, no one has, to my knowledge, been able to pinpoint with exact and complete certainty the exact moment in sexual play that one caught their own virus.  Was it during the oral?  Was it during the vaginal?  Was it during the anal?  You don't know.

4.  There are certain facts we know about infectious fluids and non-infectious fluids.  We also know that saliva contains an inhibiting agent... now, I am not a scientist... however... given the incredible complexity of the relationship between multi-cellular biological organisms and viruses, I would view the statement "human saliva kills HIV" as the truth but one in with potential loopholes.  Perhaps one person's doesn't inhibit as much, perhaps they had brushed their teeth recently... or maybe they're lying.  Who can say?  No one can.

5.  Given all the potential circumstances that go into HIV transmission, I don't see the purpose in taking anyone to task when they mention how they believe they were infected.  What exactly do you get out of it?  If they sincerely believe they're telling the truth, then you come off as kind of an ass.  If they're lying... then they're lying... yay.  It's a rather silly thing to lie about.   

I know teh Internets are serious fucking business, but in light of the unknowns, I think one might profitably mind one's own business when it comes to this subject.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline jkinatl2

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  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2007, 05:53:20 PM »
The plural of anecdote is not data.

And this thread is not the place for a scientific discussion of oral sex and first tier peer review. I for sure am NOT going to further alienate myself from this site by starting yet another, ultimately pointless oral sex thread in the LIVING WITH forum. I stand firmly behind my research, and the efficacy of the assertions I have made. That having been said, I welcome the new member, and in THIS forum, it is absolutely irrelevant HOW someone became infected - except that silence is construed by many who lurk as complicity.

Something I have no trouble countering in the AM I INFECTED area of the forum.

Not here, in what I assume to be a support forum first, and an information forum second.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2007, 05:59:30 PM »
Keyite's been a member since September of 2006
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2007, 06:04:48 PM »
I stand corrected, LongIslander.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2007, 06:06:55 PM »
Keyite's been a member since September of 2006

I have indeed but, like friends, one can't have too many welcomes...  ;)

Offline aupointillimite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2007, 06:08:34 PM »
The plural of anecdote is not data.

It's "Internets."

I just made that up.  And you may quote me wildly on it.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2007, 07:36:47 PM »
I do not now nor have I ever seen any evidence that HIV has been transmitted via oral sex. I do not accept that the virus is transmitted in that way.

I have no doubt that Keyite is quite genuine in his belief that this is how he contracted the virus. Just because his belief is genuine, doesn't mean it's correct. As was noted earlier there are other factors at play in this case.

The unprotected anal sex, for instance.

MtD

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2007, 07:50:22 PM »
As was noted earlier there are other factors at play in this case.

The unprotected anal sex, for instance.

Yes, I have had unprotected anal sex - long enough ago, and with enough negative test results in between to know I could not have been infected that way.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2007, 07:56:35 PM »
Ah.

Point taken Keyite. Jakey's hamfisted attempt at irony must have distracted Matty the Damned from reading the fine print.

Nevertheless, I'm not convinced about oral sex as a mode of transmission.

I would ask one question, does it actually matter how you got the QueerPlague? I mean, it's all a bit late to fuss about this now.

MtD

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2007, 08:14:52 PM »
I would ask one question, does it actually matter how you got the QueerPlague? I mean, it's all a bit late to fuss about this now.

Matty, please have a look at my reply #38 above. My original post wasn't actually intended to convey that I'm singularly stuck on HOW I got infected - I'm more concerned with the resulting contradictions and dilemmas I seem to face in moving forward. I could perhaps have made that clearer.

Offline koi1

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2007, 08:31:58 PM »
I think what is confusing is the follwoing statemet you made.:

"I have had unprotected anal sex in the past and I could just as well have been infected that way "

You are entitled to your opinion, however people are just pointing out that no credible, documented, proven, case has ever been shown in terms of getting it by receiving oral sex. In studies people have also recanted their stories by later "confessing" that they also had unprotected anal sex. Look up the UCSF serodiscorant study.

People do not need to call you a liar. That was uncalled for. What matters is ultimately what you believe, and you are entitled to that. I just don't know you are going to have a lot of success convincing very many people that it is a risk to be taken seriously, when many are already curtailing their sexual activity. What's next? Full body Condoms? Why bother with sex then? Somebody shoot me before I go insane. By the way, don't reheat food in styrofoam containers, it causes cancer.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2007, 08:55:55 PM »
Matty, please have a look at my reply #38 above.

Key,

I re-read that and I have to tell you that Rob (Koi) is on the money. There is no credible evidence which establishes oral sex (receptive, insertive or otherwise) as a way to transmit HIV. None, nada, zip, zilch, bupkis. You don't need to be confuzzled about "the way forward" on this issue any longer.

MtD

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2007, 10:13:05 PM »
I wonder if all the people who ran the studies and asked the survey questions, dismissed everyone who claimed oral sex as their transmission route just as easily as Keyite is being dismissed as somewhat delusional.

Key, I don't think you'll get anyone to believe. As has been pointed out, there are big reasons why no one wants to believe it possible.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2007, 10:39:21 PM »
I wonder if all the people who ran the studies and asked the survey questions, dismissed everyone who claimed oral sex as their transmission route just as easily as Keyite is being dismissed as somewhat delusional.

Key, I don't think you'll get anyone to believe. As has been pointed out, there are big reasons why no one wants to believe it possible.

First off, I find your insinuation repugnant.

Secondly, had you bothered to review the Page-Shafer and Romero studies, you would have discovered that post- infection interview was not an issue. No one HAD to lie or misrepresent, because there were NO infections. Not in twenty-plus accumulated years of monitoring between the two studies.

Post-infection patient survey is exceedingly unreliable, but until the advent of HAART, there were NO serodiscordant couples remaining sexually active long enough to compile and follow. We were, at best, extrapolating from the softest science (patient report) and presenting it as hard data. While I understand that position from a "better safe than sorry"  aspect, it's simply not anywhere close to the quantifiability of the serodiscordant studies.

A vested interest? Sure, because once you postulate that exposure to saliva can infect, you transition HIV from an infectious agent to a communicable one. With all the stigma and isolation that such an event presupposes.

I get so frustrated sometimes, because the science is THERE. Its OBVIOUS. And frighteningly few seem to bother to look at it.

It is obvious with simian and primate studies, with long term monitoring, with epidemiology in the heterosexual community as well as the gay community.

It's obvious with the lack of documented cunnilingus transmission, with the lack of casual contact transmission, with the long-term serodiscordant studies, and with the biological evidence of the mechanisms for HIv infection: to wit, the necessity for HIV to contact specific lymph cells and dendritic cells, which are almost utterly absent from the oral cavity.

The dozen or so proteins and enzymes in saliva which inhibit HIV (at least two of which have been synthesized and used in Astroglide lubricant).

As people with HIV, we have not only an opportunity, but a DUTY to understand our infection and the transmission vectors. Otherwise, we should not be shocked when our families and friends withdraw, when we are given plastic forks at Thanksgiving, when our hands are not held when we die.

THAT is the vested interest, Longislander. Not the search for sexual gratification.

Again, I apologize for participating here. I respectfully withdraw.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2007, 11:37:55 PM »
Quote
First off, I find your insinuation repugnant.

I'm sure you do. I find your insinuation that Keyite has no business asking this question in THIS forum just plain rude.

Quote
Secondly, had you bothered to review the Page-Shafer and Romero studies, you ...

If I had as much time on my hands as you do, I just may have read it.
Quote
once you postulate that exposure to saliva can infect,

I think you've read way too much into anything I've said.

Quote
we should not be shocked when our families and friends withdraw, when we are given plastic forks at Thanksgiving, when our hands are not held when we die.

...when someone we know tests positive from oral sex...

Quote
Again, I apologize for participating here. I respectfully withdraw

This is happening often...

You're correct, everyone else is dead wrong.
There are no maybe's.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2007, 11:47:15 PM »
Well said Jonathan!

Offline Miss Philicia

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2007, 11:53:07 PM »
*sigh*
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2007, 11:56:29 PM »
Paul, that crack about "If I had as much time on my hands as you do" is NOT cool.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but it rubbed me the wrong way altogether.


(I know I said I'd stay out of this thread already.  Mea Culpa.)


PS-  This thread is cursed or something.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2007, 11:57:46 PM »
If I had as much time on my hands as you do, I just may have read it.


 I hope you are just trying to be "ironic" but what an unnecessary cheap shot.



edited to add: I hope if you ever find yourself on disabilty you will find a little more support and understanding than you exhibit.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 12:08:10 AM by Dachshund »

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2007, 11:59:59 PM »
"(I know I said I'd stay out of this thread already.  Mea Culpa.)"
 ;)

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #87 on: March 22, 2007, 12:07:20 AM »
I'm sure you do. I find your insinuation that Keyite has no business asking this question in THIS forum just plain rude.

At no time did anyone insinuate that Key had no business asking his question, Paul. We all accept that he has every right to ask his question and JK (who is more qualified to answer these sorts of questions than any of us) answered it.

Patiently and politely.

Not only that, JK's answer (as always) is supported by the highest standard of evidence. A standard that has made these forums the leading HIV/AIDS website.

Sometimes there are right and wrong answers to questions, Paul. This is one of those occasions.

MtD

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #88 on: March 22, 2007, 12:09:27 AM »
I know some of you have great fondness for Jonathan, and I can appreciate that. However, blindy defending Jonathon is NOT COOL.

Quote
Secondly, had you bothered to review the Page-Shafer and Romero studies, you would


I never said a word to Jonathon, in this thread, prior to his post to me. I suppose the above statement from Jonathon to me is perfectly acceptable according to your (pl) standards.

Got it.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2007, 12:13:17 AM »
I know some of you have great fondness for Jonathan, and I can appreciate that. However, blindy defending Jonathon is NOT COOL.
 

I never said a word to Jonathon, in this thread, prior to his post to me. I suppose the above statement from Jonathon to me is perfectly acceptable according to your (pl) standards.

Got it.


Yep I got it.

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2007, 12:13:35 AM »
Quote
And this thread is not the place for a scientific discussion of oral sex and first tier peer review. I for sure am NOT going to further alienate myself from this site by starting yet another, ultimately pointless oral sex thread in the LIVING WITH forum. I stand firmly behind my research, and the efficacy of the assertions I have made. That having been said, I welcome the new member, and in THIS forum, it is absolutely irrelevant HOW someone became infected - except that silence is construed by many who lurk as complicity.

Quote
At no time did anyone insinuate that Key had no business asking his question, Paul.


they didn't? Thanks for the clarification, I'd stand corrected if I were wrong.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2007, 12:22:17 AM »
"Fondness for Jonathan" has nothing to do with it from my end.  And I'm not blindly defending anything or anyone  here.  I'm calling out an inappropriate statement...with eyes wide open.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2007, 12:27:01 AM »
doubt that.
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2007, 12:37:59 AM »
Paul,

You're right. I am extraordinarily fond of Jonathan. He is one of my most favourite people in this place. He has been since I staggered in here two years ago.

But that's not why I'm defending him.

I don't have to defend JK - he is more than capable of doing that himself. I'm supporting his position because on this issue he is right. End of story.

MtD

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2007, 12:41:29 AM »
doubt that.

Doubt that, do you?  Paul, I am steaming from head to hoof over that comment you made above- and even moreso by how steadfast you are standing behind it.  I'm not defending Jonathan so much as admonishing you for a callous statement.

For the record:  I would have called out the horrible swipe of yours no matter who was on the receiving end because it is foul and utterly inappropriate.  Believe it or not, I would have said the very same thing to Jonathan had he hurled such a comment at you.  

For now, I shall take the high road and leave the contents of your PM between us.

Take care of yourself as well.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Bucko

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #95 on: March 22, 2007, 12:44:55 AM »
Doubt that, do you?  Paul, I am steaming from head to hoof over that comment you made above- and even moreso by how steadfast you are standing behind it.  I'm not defending Jonathan so much as admonishing you for a callous statement.

For the record:  I would have called out the horrible swipe of yours no matter who was on the receiving end because it is foul and utterly inappropriate.  Believe it or not, I would have said the very same thing to Jonathan had he hurled such a comment at you. 

For now, I shall take the high road and leave the contents of your PM between us.

Take care of yourself as well.

I'd like a peek. ;D

Brent
(Who lives and dies by what he writes)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #96 on: March 22, 2007, 12:46:41 AM »
Matthew,

You can support Jonathon all you like- on his beliefs, his research, and the like. I'm not sure what Jonathons 'qualifications' are, but if you're ok with them, Matthew, good for you.  But supporting someone being rude and/or dismissive to another member is not cool.

Paul
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline Longislander

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2007, 12:48:42 AM »
Tim, go right ahead and share my PM to you. Why is it you feel the need to insinuate to everyone that I said something incredibly vile to you in it?
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline Dachshund

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2007, 12:58:52 AM »
Who's Matthew?

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2007, 01:03:22 AM »
Paul,

The only one in this thread who is being discourteous is you. The rest of us are being Herculean in our efforts to remain calm and civil about this.

Jonathan was neither rude nor dismissive. His answers to Key were detailed, referenced and most polite. He was measured in response to you as well.

MtD

 


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