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Author Topic: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?  (Read 49623 times)

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Offline keyite

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Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« on: March 21, 2007, 08:05:55 AM »
This came up in another thread and rather than hijacking it even more than I had done already I thought it might be worth starting a new one.

Before my diagnosis my informed view was that the likelihood of getting infected via oral sex was real but insignificant: no risk associated with being on the receiving end and very small risk associated with giving it. I reasoned that it would be more likely for me to be hit by the proverbial meteor than getting infected via oral sex. So I indulged on that score.

Guess what? I lost out on that risk assessment. Because I went through the seroconversion illness I can be pretty clear when and via what behaviours I was infected. The overwhelming likelihood is that I was infected when giving a blowjob. The only other risk scenario is protected anal sex as the top (insertive partner).

Since my diagnosis I have found two things; (1) a lot of poz people consider oral sex a no-risk activity (not low risk, but no-risk) and (2) I keep coming across other people who report they too were infected via oral sex, on this board, elsewhere on the net and even one friend of a friend. The guy at the clinic who gave me the diagnosis told me they come across stories like mine 'with some regularity'. Quite the contradiction.

I feel so torn on what to do about this contradiction. On one hand, I feel I must challenge others making the assertion that there is no risk, not least because if I don't, then I'm ultimately denying my own experience and that doesn't seem very healthy. On the other hand, I have been acutely conscious that it might be interpreted as denial on my part, me trying to make myself less 'deserving' of infection or otherwise 'better' than other poz people. Certainly, you could have cut the air the first time I did challenge this assumption in a support group I attended for a while for newly diagnosed guys. But it really isn't where I'm coming from. I have had unprotected anal sex in the past and I could just as well have been infected that way - it is just long enough ago that I know that isn't actually how I was infected. I genuinely don't think anyone 'deserves' HIV.

Those that consider oral sex a no-risk activity often seem to dismiss anecdotal evidence from people like me as insufficient, unreliable or just plain steeped in denial. But isn't all reported method of transmission fundamentally down to anecdotal evidence? There isn't a scientist or doctor there ready with a clipboard at the moment transmission takes place. When unprotected intercourse has taken place it is invariably assumed that it was the culprit but doesn't this assumption equally open up the possibility that some of these might in fact have been through oral sex? Isn't the reality that we are unlikely to ever be able to conclusive prove it a no-risk activity?

Don't get me wrong: I do still recognise oral sex is associated with relative low risk - if it was high risk then this would have been an epidemic on quite a different scale. And I still won't be using a condom for blowjobs. But there is still, to my mind, a difference between 'low risk' and 'no risk'. To  quite a few this difference is clearly just splitting hairs and I totally understand that point of view - after all, that was broadly my own risk assessment before I was infected. But to others, that small difference may well translate into awareness and some precautions, however small (not really talking about superinfection here, but more the risk of infecting neggies). It also closely intertwines with the issue of disclosure. From my own perspective, and perhaps predictably since I'm still newly diagnosed, those fears/anxieties have certainly loomed very large on the few occasions I've had sex since diagnosis.

What does everyone else think? Am I barking mad? Is it just simply that I've beaten those incredible statistical odds, together with a handful of others, and that to beat them again (by infecting a neggie that way) would be inconceivable? Should I just 'get over it' and shut up about the whole thing? I realise there's a rhetorical slant to these questions but if this thread sinks into oblivion unanswered then I guess I have my answer... ;)

Offline jack

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2007, 08:22:00 AM »
Its just not possible and most likely you are a liar. Have you not seen the results from the "scientific" surveys on this subject??? Well, if you haven't,you will.

Offline koi1

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2007, 08:27:50 AM »
Well, like you said, you did have unprotected anal sex. What you think of a seroconversion illness may not have been one. The seroconversion illness aspect of it is very unreliable in determining when someone was infected because up to half of people never get a seroconversion illness as I never did. Sometimes people equate a flu or a cold with it, when that is all it was. Some people assume  that just because they never got a seroconversion illness, they are negative. There is a lot of misinformation out there. Now what I have heard is that it is possible under some circumstances to get HIV infected through oral sex, but they are very minute, and they have not been able to isolate a significant amount of credible people who have gotten it this way, where they can prove that this is how it happened. The cdc still uses the oral sex moderate risk model, but is is now under a right wing influence.

I don't know that feeling anger over how you got it is healthy for you. I don't know anyone personally that claims to have gotten it through oral sex. Sometimes people will report this because they find it shameful to admit that they engaged in such a "dirty unatural" practice of the backdoor love.

Now if my family asked me how I got it which, they would not be crass enough to ask, I would just say through sexual behavior, and if they wanted the specifics i would just come out and say it. "I got my butt plowed, there are you happy!?" Only because it would help my nieces and nephews to avoid this terrible disease, that still has way too much stigma attached to it, because of the hatred of us homosexuals, that refuses to die.


rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2007, 08:35:04 AM »
And now it is a right wing plot. Just incredible. I knew W created all terrorists,and he created the hurricanes, but I didnt realize he was also behind the scheme to convince the public that sucking cock might cause hiv infection.
Since when did surveys become science?

Offline jkinatl2

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2007, 08:37:09 AM »
Wow, Jack. Bitter much?

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline koi1

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2007, 08:37:17 AM »
Jack, that was a little bit harsh. I truly believe that people can think that is how they got it. I don't think  keyite is a liar, just misinformed and confuesed, angry or all of the above. But what does it matter now? No scare tactics by any agency is going to keep people from getting it. But just to make keyite feel a little better, you can still get almost every other STD through oral sex, so suck off at your own risk people.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline koi1

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2007, 08:39:10 AM »
Oh yeah, Jake the neocon fascist, I remember you. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D The W is such a gooooood president.



diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2007, 08:40:53 AM »
Well, like you said, you did have unprotected anal sex. What you think of a seroconversion illness may not have been one. The seroconversion illness aspect of it is very unreliable in determining when someone was infected because up to half of people never get a seroconversion illness as I never did. Sometimes people equate a flu or a cold with it, when that is all it was.

Yes, I have had unprotected anal sex - long enough ago, and with enough negative test results in between to know I could not have been infected that way. Long story, but I do know when I had the seroconversion illness - I had the p24 antigen test at the time (because flu just did not ring true) and it came back inconclusive - this should have sent alarm bells ringing but the doc at the time made a mistake in reassuring me that I was uninfected. I have had quite regular HIV tests prior to diagnosis so I know for sure infection took place in a relatively limited window.

I don't know that feeling anger over how you got it is healthy for you.

Sure, I have felt anger about getting infected (mostly directed inwards) but that isn't actually where I'm at now and it isn't what brought about this post.

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2007, 08:45:00 AM »
Christ Jakey! I think you need one of these:


Key was simply asking a question.

Key,

Ignore Jack, he has terminal cranky. Rob has nailed this one (so to speak) when he points out:

Well, like you said, you did have unprotected anal sex.

Therein lies your answer, dearest.

MtD

Offline koi1

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2007, 08:49:08 AM »
Well, like I said, you truly must believe that is the way you got it. That is more real to you than anything any of us can say, not even Jack's kind words can sway you. But the overwhelming scientific evidence contradicts your position. There is nothing wrong with swimming upstream when there is a purpose. I just don't know if it could ever be proven that someone got it just by having oral sex. I hope you won't let it get to you too much. Your health is more imprtant now, than what any of us thinks.

rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
01/04/07 six weeks after diagnosis vl 53,000 cd4 cd4 70    6%
Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
Drawn 02/10/07
cd4=160 viral load= 131 percentage= 8%
New labs 3/10/07 (two months on sustiva truvada
cd4 count 292  percentage 14 viral load undetectable

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2007, 09:40:27 AM »
Jack.  Did the two trannies in vegas tear you a new one?  WTF man! 

Key,

While alot of us disagree with the risk of oral sex it ultimately doesnt matter.  In relation to the advice we give in the AM I INFECTED forum we ONLY give first tier peer reviewed quantifiable scientific results and thus far the science has not proven that you can become infected through oral sex.  IF and thats a BIG IF in my opinion, they come out with the aforementiond scientific study that conclusively proves over a broad spectrum of subjects that it indeed is possible you may see a change.  But I wouldnt hold my breath on that one, I for one just don't think it happens. 

I am not calling you liar.  For you to be lying you have to believe something other than what you are telling us and I am positive you aren't doing that.  How you got it doesnt make you less of a pozzie, just because others don't believe in how you became infected doesnt mean we look down on you either.  We are one group, with one blood bourne virus that didnt discriminate on what we were doing, who we were or how we live our lives.  It invaded and took hold and now we all fight it TOGETHER.  Thats all that matters.

Andrew
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Florida69

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 09:50:30 AM »
Let me see if I understand this correctly, You think you contracted HIV from receiving oral.  If you gave oral, then you chances of contracting HIV are not as low as you would want to believe.  I know two people in the last year that say they contracted HIV from giving oral.  If there are any doctors in the house, that could help us with the correct information, please feel free. Now if you received oral you chances are non-existent, as you may know, saliva for the most part does not transmit the virus as it has been proven scientifically that there is very little HIV in saliva.  Now if you gave oral, you are still taking a big chance by even taken on someone bodily fluids such as precum.  We all know that precum is very much a carrier for the virus.  Receptive anal is high risk.  

With all that said I am sorry to hear about your positive test, and hope that you find your way like many of us have done.  I know that your days seem dark, I have been there.  You are not alone there are many of us on the same bus as you, and you can still live a fullfilling life, but you have to deal with your status of being virally enhanced, take better care of yourself, and always use protection.  It is okay to be mad, but take heart that this too shall pass.  Good luck, D

[attachment deleted by admin]
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Offline racingmind

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  • Posts: 236
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 10:16:05 AM »
Hmmm....
Has anyone responding to this thread noticed that the original poster is most likely British (based on spelling and how the dates are listed)?

Now, I know I'm probably gonna get shit for this, but you know what they say about British oral hygiene....

So, with that in mind, why are you so quick to dismiss the possibility for infection by performing oral sex on a male?

Just looking for clues here....
Tested Negative: 5/06
Tested Positive: 9/06 
9/06: CD4: 442 (28%) VL: +100,000
10/06: CD4: 323 (25%) VL: 243,440
11/06: CD4: 405 (28%) VL: 124,324
12/06: CD4: 450 (29%) VL: 114,600
1/07: CD4: 440 (27%) VL: 75,286
3/07: CD4: 459 (30%) VL: 44,860
5/07: CD4: 353 (24%) VL: 50,852
7/07: CD4: 437 (29%) VL: 39,475
9/07: CD4: 237 (32%) VL: 372,774
10/07: CD4: 324 (27%) VL: 115,454 
Started Atripla: 10/07
11/07: CD4: 524 (?%) VL: Undetectable!
2/08: CD4: 653 (35%) VL: undetectable
5/08: CD4: 822 (40%) VL: undetectable
8/08: CD4: 626 (35%) VL: undetectable
12/08: CD4: 619 (36%) VL: undetectable
3/09: CD4: 802 (38%) VL: undetectable
7/09: CD4: 1027 (43%) VL: not tested
10/09: CD4: 1045 (43%) VL: undetectable

Offline ACinKC

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  • Bring it VIRUS! #2 Ranked In-crowd Member!
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 10:23:51 AM »
Hmmm....
Has anyone responding to this thread noticed that the original poster is most likely British (based on spelling and how the dates are listed)?

Now, I know I'm probably gonna get shit for this, but you know what they say about British oral hygiene....

So, with that in mind, why are you so quick to dismiss the possibility for infection by performing oral sex on a male?

Just looking for clues here....

There have been several studies that indicate it does NOT happen.  I will again quote the wonderful Jonathan on this one....

http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=10310.msg127650#msg127650

The quajtification we use at AIDSMEDS is based on three distinct and separate studies conducted over the course of two decades with serodiscordasnt couples. We do not rely on anecdotal evidence insofar as HIV transmission is concerned, especially not now, where the current state of the scientific and epidemiological art is as advanced as it is. With more people living longer and healthier lives, a large enough collection of serodiscordant couples has finally emerged to create blind studies where HIV transmission routes can be studied with scientific quantification.

Here are some of the  scientific findings.


No incident HIV infections among MSM who practice exclusively oral sex.
Int Conf AIDS 2004 Jul 11-16; 15:(abstract no. WePpC2072)??Balls JE, Evans JL, Dilley J, Osmond D, Shiboski S, Shiboski C, Klausner J, McFarland W, Greenspan D, Page-Shafer K?University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, United States

Oral transmission of HIV, reality or fiction? An update
J Campo1, MA Perea1, J del Romero2, J Cano1, V Hernando2, A Bascones1
Oral Diseases (2006) 12, 219–228

AIDS:  Volume 16(17)  22 November 2002  pp 2350-2352
Risk of HIV infection attributable to oral sex among men who have sex with men and in the population of men who have sex with men

Page-Shafer, Kimberlya,b; Shiboski, Caroline Hb; Osmond, Dennis Hc; Dilley, Jamesd; McFarland, Willie; Shiboski, Steve Cc; Klausner, Jeffrey De; Balls, Joycea; Greenspan, Deborahb; Greenspan

Page-Shafer K, Veugelers PJ, Moss AR, Strathdee S, Kaldor JM, van Griensven GJ. Sexual risk behavior and risk factors for HIV-1 seroconversion in homosexual men participating in the Tricontinental Seroconverter Study, 1982-1994 [published erratum appears in Am J Epidemiol 1997 15 Dec; 146(12):1076]. Am J Epidemiol 1997, 146:531-542.



Studies which show the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence as opposed to carefully controlled study insofar as HIV transmission risk is concerned:

Jenicek M. "Clinical Case Reporting" in Evidence-Based Medicine. Oxford: Butterworth–Heinemann; 1999:117

Saltzman SP, Stoddard AM, McCusker J, Moon MW, Mayer KH. Reliability of self-reported sexual behavior risk factors for HIV infection in homosexual men. Public Health Rep. 1987 102(6):692–697.Nov–Dec;

Catania JA, Gibson DR, Chitwood DD, Coates TJ. Methodological problems in AIDS behavioral research: influences on measurement error and participation bias in studies of sexual behavior. Psychol Bull. 1990 Nov;108(3):339–362.



LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 10:27:58 AM »
 Now if you gave oral, you are still taking a big chance by even taken on someone bodily fluids such as precum.  We all know that precum is very much a carrier for the virus.  Receptive anal is high risk.  

I'm sorry but the statistics don't show that you are "taking a big chance" when you give a blowjob.  At BEST its an extremely LOW risk but most likely only theoretical (according to the studies which is what we go by in the AM I forum). 

Andrew
(who understands that this means nothing in relation to Key's becoming infected, and respects him all the same!)
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline jack

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  • fomerly the loser known as Jake
Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 10:34:00 AM »
I still want to see what they call "carefully controlled study". There can be no such thing without observation and strict guidelines. If you believe all participants are being honest than I guess results are correct but most of these can be no more credible than any other poll or exit results on voting day. No one knows what goes on in the booth and no one knows for sure what goes on in the bedroom,unless of course W is involved.
I know what I have done and how I got this virus, call it anecdotal if you want but its the fucking truth.

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 10:42:05 AM »
Hmmm....
Has anyone responding to this thread noticed that the original poster is most likely British (based on spelling and how the dates are listed)?

Now, I know I'm probably gonna get shit for this, but you know what they say about British oral hygiene....

LOL! I see what you're getting at but there are no known problems in my oral hygiene department. Yes, I live in the UK but wasn't born here and didn't grow up here - I hail from Scandinavia. But perhaps ALL Europeans have bad oral hygiene? A bit like ALL Americans are brash loud-mouths?  ;) ;D ;)

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2007, 10:50:09 AM »
I have one friend who told me initially that he got HIV from performing oral sex, but later told me that he got it from condomless anal sex.  He told me that he thought that telling himself and others that he got it through oral sex would be easier to swallow (pardon the pun). 

I think that many people feel that they will face harsh responses if they say that they had unprotected anal sex given the risk and therefore feel less threatened by saying that they were really careful and were just that unlucky one in a million.  It makes them feel less culpable or somehow less judged.

I also think that people have convenient memories.  My friend calls this the "Maury Factor".  A cheesy U.S. talk show (Maurie Povich) often has entire segments entitled something like "Who Be My Baby Daddy".  On these segments a woman claims to be 5000 percent sure that she knows who her baby daddy is, because she didn't have sex with anyone else other than the accused. A paternity test is given and guess what, the man she claims to be the baby daddy isn't.  Then she says something like "Oh yeah, there I forgot about that night with Tyrelll......."

Next week Tyrell is given a paternity test and the woman claims that she is now certain that he is her baby daddy.  Tyrell takes the test and he isn't the father.  She then responds with "Oh yeah, I forgot about........"

These women claim to be absolutely without a doubt certain what they did sexually and with whom they did it, and yet, they always seem to forget one or twenty other sexual encounters.

Sometimes we forget, sometimes we are drunk or high, etc.  Who knows.  As Rob stated, many times people have unprotected encounters and have no seroconversion symptoms.  They then have a lot of oral sex and get the flu.  They mistake the flu symptoms for a seroconversion illness and get tested.  They test positive and assume that they were infected more recently and that they got it from oral sex rather than the condomless anal sex that happened in the more distant past.

I find it hard to discount all the actual scientific data showing serodiscordant couples having unprotected oral sex (yes even with swallowing) and in ten years among some one hundred couples, not one HIV neggie was infected. 

I think it is always better to rely on scientific data than on the word of individuals who may have faulty memories or personal reasons as to being less than completely forthcoming regarding all the details of their sex lives.

Personally I don't give a rat's hairy ass how anyone got this thing.  It is a fucking virus, period.  The stigma needs to be stamped out.  Once the stigma is diminished there will be fewer reasons to be ashamed about how one was infected and less misinformation regarding transmission risks as a result.  Fear and paranoia based on extremely rare modes of transmission does nothing to limit the spread of this virus.  It only confuses people more and makes them feel less empowered in HIV prevention.  We know that the virus is overwhelmingly sexually transmitted through unprotected anal and vaginal sex, and very, very rarely, possibly transmitted from performing oral sex on a male partner. 


Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 10:54:13 AM »
By the way this discussion usually doesnt end well.

Who's up for letting it go?



So says the one-eyed guy....so says us all?
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline David_CA

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2007, 11:04:23 AM »
What I've always wondered is that when folks talk about oral sex, giving a blow job, specifically, are they talking about taking it to completion?  Although I believe the scientific evidence, I can almost see a difference between sucking a dick for a few minutes and having a mouth full of semen.  Most, if not all, of the studies I've read haven't really addressed that.  Anyway...

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline milker

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2007, 11:07:16 AM »
I'm a cum addict.

I've had gallons of cum in my mouth, even few hours after having a mouth cleaning at the dentist. I tested negative for 20 years of eating cum twice or more a day.
Then I got fucked without protection back in december. And I tested positive 2 months later.

Just my story.

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 11:28:56 AM »
I'm a cum addict.

I've had gallons of cum in my mouth, even few hours after having a mouth cleaning at the dentist. I tested negative for 20 years of eating cum twice or more a day.
Then I got fucked without protection back in december. And I tested positive 2 months later.

Just my story.

Milker.


Hence the name Milker, I suppose.  I will confess that there's something I find rather hot about that post.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2007, 11:34:07 AM »
And Jack:  Sorry, but even I have to hop on you a bit about your response about W.  His administration has made a concerted effort to keep valuable information from the eyes and ears of those who need it most.  That's not my opinion- that's from the headlines.  Anybody remember all that HIV in tears stuff, btw?
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2007, 11:40:49 AM »
Jack, how about easing up here a bit. Disagreeing with someone is one thing and ok. Deciding you can call him a liar is something else and not acceptable.

Giving oral repeatedly comes up (no pun intended) in terms of the level of risk. I don't see us resolving it here but there is room for diverse opinions without going to war over it.

Andy Velez

Offline Robert

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2007, 11:51:23 AM »
There have been far too many people here who claim to be positive by oral infection to just brush it off.  Maybe I'm one of those suckers but I really see no reason to doubt the stories of our posters here at AM much less cast dispersions on them for blaming oral sex.  Because of the number of incidents reported here is small for even a web site, I imagine it's insignificant when it comes to scientific studies.  But that doesn't mean it isn't so.  Really, to say can't happen is to be as pigheaded as our friend Jake. 

robert
..........

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2007, 12:01:04 PM »
I hail from Scandinavia. But perhaps ALL Europeans have bad oral hygiene? A bit like ALL Americans are brash loud-mouths?

Sorry Key, having grown up overseas with Europeans, I found this one hilarious.  (Probably because I relate)

Keyite brings up a very interesting question, and one that shouldn't be handled with such abandon as Jake, nor as much doubt as many have shown.

One must remember that even a pubic hair cut is the equivalent to an 8 lane highway to HIV.  This viral protein dosen't need much more than an open wound of any size, to come on in and have it's way with us.  We also forget that if one is not circumsized, then they are also particularly suceptible to infection through the skin.  Also, most any sexual activity can bruise the foreskin to an extent that infection, even orally is not totally out of the question.  

While I totally respect scientific study and do respect survey results when the numbers of those involved is of significant size to show some efficacy; I still have some difficulty accepting everything that is published as scientific fact.  We have lived for the last 6 years, and actually probably beyond that, under a false sense of accuracy as we now find more and more science is dictated from the highest levels of government.  Hush Jake/Jack.  W. lies about science and just about everything else, and has been lying for the better part of his life!

Beyond that, I have come to feel that it isn't particularly important how one becomes infected, but how they work through the following couple of years.  Truly Keyite has stated that it isn't terribly important, but he came here to discuss it and I think he deserves a decent discussion.

I cannot tell anyone that their means of infection was impossible, or in any other way different than my own.  I can however, study the results of research and find comfort in some of what I read, but it all must be taken in the context of the whole human experience to really be of value.  In that sense, who among us can stand there and tell Keyite he is lying?  I think none of us.  Probably more like none of us really know the answer, and his proposed infection route, under the correct circumstances is not out of the question.

I would close by simply saying, I hope you can work through this soon, as these questions are really unimportant in the scope of one's lifetime.  It is far better to work our way through these things quickly, and move on.  Living with a disease that can kill you, tends to make the rest of your life come into perspective pretty quickly, and entertaining postive and uplifting thoughts is far better for your long term health and survival.  

Take your time, and make every day count for something postive.

Love,
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline Basquo

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2007, 12:23:11 PM »
So, Milker, you going to join us in San Francisco?? ;D

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2007, 12:26:40 PM »
"We also forget that if one is not circumsized, then they are also particularly suceptible to infection through the skin.  Also, most any sexual activity can bruise the foreskin to an extent that infection, even orally is not totally out of the question."

 Talk about fanning the flames of fear!!!!!

Cirumcission or not, there have been NO DOCUMENTED CASES of HIV FROM RECEIVING ORAL SEX!!!  To even suggest this or to bring this up is to fuel the flames of worry wort paranoiia.  Let's look at real transmission risks, not nearly impossible risks.  Remember, worry worts read these threads too. 

Edited to add:

Since when did saliva become an infectious agent?!?!?!?!. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 01:53:54 PM by scotttt »

Offline ACinKC

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2007, 12:29:59 PM »
We will deal with the Worried Ones in the Am I infected forums just fine.  It is ok to have a differing of opinion between the members here.  So lighten up just a hair on those with opposing views.  It will make this thread go alot better.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Teresa

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2007, 12:30:47 PM »
We discussed this topic with hubby's Dr. She said that oral was a low risk. Not as much of a risk as unprotected vaginal or anal sex but it was still a risk.
For me I will take the advice of hubby's Dr over a scientific study.

Hugs
Teresa
Hubby HIV+ 5/5/06
CD4:320
  %: 26.7
 VL: <20
Atripla (started it 8/24/06)
 

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2007, 12:31:32 PM »
Got any more of those pills, AC?

TH

(Who will take one, too....just cuz)
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2007, 12:34:32 PM »
"We will deal with the Worried Ones in the Am I infected forums just fine.  It is ok to have a differing of opinion between the members here.  So lighten up just a hair on those with opposing views.  It will make this thread go alot better."

It is one thing to have an opposing viewpoint.  It is another to suggest that saliva is an infectious agent.  Come on!!!  Engaging in extremely unlikely "what if" scenarios that have never ever been shown to occur is the thing that WW nightmares are made of. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 12:37:16 PM by scotttt »

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2007, 12:35:47 PM »
Um...welcome back from your Time Out, scottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.


So, AC....how 'bout those pills?
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2007, 12:38:51 PM »
"Um...welcome back from your Time Out, scottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt."

My point is valid.  Get over it. :'(

Let's try sticking to the issues here.  No need to flame bait.  Suggesting that being uncut may result in getting HIV from getting a blow job suggests that saliva is an infectios agent which it is not.  Calling such assertions into question is merely correcting the dissemination of misinformation.  As I recall, one of the purposes of this website is to dispel myths not reinforce them. 

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 12:47:43 PM by scotttt »

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2007, 12:44:34 PM »
Since when did saliva become an infectious agent?!?!?!?!.  Jeezus!!!!

Yes, you are correct, saliva is not an infectious agent.  Yes your "point" is valid, but only in the broadest of senses.  Beyond that, you are proving Keyites' statement about American Brash Mouths.

Have you never heard of bleeding gums?  Suction?  Unmerciful teeth?  Kinky Oral?  I'm sorry, the list goes on, ..........  and on   ............    and on.........

It is just too arrogant to say that oral is no risk!   I think I also stated the the human experience is far to diverse, and far too intricate, for us in our cushy United States, to dictate what is "correct" for the world and what isn't.  Our research is also far too corrupt for us to stand by some of it.  One needs to know the "true" history of this disease to really condemn anyone's views or science.  

Frankly, I am not the least bit worried about "worry warts", as you call them.  Not one iota!!!!!!!!!!

Love,
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2007, 12:46:20 PM »
"Frankly, I am not the least bit worried about "worry warts", as you call them.  Not one iota!!!!!!!!!!"

WOW.  Sad.  You forget that we as human being are all connected.  Feeding into irrational myths about HIV transmission perpetuates ignorance and discrimination against those living with HIV. 

"Beyond that, you are proving Keyites' statement about American Brash Mouths."

Moffie, I am shocked.  This seems to be a very personal attack.  How very unkind of you. 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 12:54:51 PM by scotttt »

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2007, 12:53:52 PM »
scottttttttttttttttttttttttttt

Oh wise one, please tell me why I should give a damn about someone's imagination, when there are more people who are already infected that need help, than those that live in a fog of fear?

Please!
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline David_CA

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2007, 12:58:24 PM »

Hence the name Milker, I suppose.  I will confess that there's something I find rather hot about that post.

Yup, same here.
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline keyite

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2007, 12:59:36 PM »
Moffie, Florida, Koi - thanks for your kind words and the concern you expressed. I don't actually think I'm particularly stuck on the HOW I was infected, at least not any more. What is done is done and think I am moving on, albeit with baby steps.

It's more that I now have great difficulty in assessing the risk involved in the future oral sex I'll hopefully have, knowing what I know about my own transmission route. Add to that the uncertainty of whether or not to disclose in oral-only scenarios. I'm absolutely determined that my virus will stay mine but what's ahead feels like a minefield.

The other part that makes moving on difficult is the absolute dismissal of oral sex as a transmission route amongst other pozzies so richly illustrated in this thread. The "I respect you and all, but there is NO WAY you could have been infected that way" just doesn't make me feel very respected - sorry. I'll need to grow some thicker skin.

Scottttt - for what it's worth (and I realise that ain't much): no, I don't suffer from selective amnesia either.

Finally, right from the beginning I interpreted Jack calling me a liar as tongue-in-cheek (and he's told me as much himself via PM)...

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2007, 01:02:50 PM »
"Oh wise one, please tell me why I should give a damn about someone's imagination, when there are more people who are already infected that need help, than those that live in a fog of fear?"

Moffie, when I am factually incorrect I welcome others to correct me.  I try not to take it personally.  We as human beings are often incorrect and there is nothing wrong with finding out one is factually wrong and correcting it.  It is how we grow both intellectually and emotionally.  While it is pleasant to be surrounded by yes men and women, it does very liittle for personal growth. 

To suggest that one is at risk for HIV infection as a result of coming into contact with saliva is incorrect.  Because this website is read by many people, it is our collective responsibility to correct blatantly incorrect information, especially when it involves HIV transmission.  To fail to do so is to negate our responsibility to the larger society. 


Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2007, 01:05:24 PM »
"Um...welcome back from your Time Out, scottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt."

My point is valid.  Get over it. :'(

Let's try sticking to the issues here.  No need to flame bait.  Suggesting that being uncut may result in getting HIV from getting a blow job suggests that saliva is an infectios agent which it is not.  Calling such assertions into question is merely correcting the dissemination of misinformation.  As I recall, one of the purposes of this website is to dispel myths not reinforce them. 



I am over it....quite over it at this point.  I'm not trying to flamebait...I'm trying to help you by gently reminding you that this type of approach is what just recently got you into trouble here.  One of the purposes of this site is to dispel myths.  One of the requirements of this site is that we speak to one another civilly.  The tone you've taken has immediately edged what was a discussion into something more akin to an argument.  That kind of thing just isn't needed around here.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 03:22:43 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2007, 01:09:35 PM »
Thunter,

Let's stick to the issue.  It was suggested that saliva is an infectious agent.  It is not.  I merely corrected blatantly incorrect information. 

Should I get timed out for correcting irresponsibly incorrect information, I would be shocked.  I have addressed all concerned with kindness and respect.  I merely attacked the misinformation not the party disseminating it. 

Let's be grown up and not reduce this to bickering.  If you disagree with me on the issue at hand, let me know. You keep on harping on me personally.  I don't see how this is productive. I have not said anything rude to you.  I really cannot understand where this hostillity is coming from.  Your anger seems out of proportion in relation to what is being said here. Kindness costs nothing.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 02:11:11 PM by scotttt »

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2007, 01:11:24 PM »
Keyite,

Ahh, the future and it's attendant worries.  

Well, that is one of the hurdles that most of us have to deal with.  Finding balance is often more important than finding absolutes.  Unfortunately, our futures are full of uncertainty, and there is little we can do about that except take it as it comes.  (OK, small pun intended)

You can only gather input from us here and then plot your own course through future encounters.  I must say that for myself, I haven't always been protective of myself, or my partners, but that is my experience which places me out of the running as judge for anyone else.  With my current relationship, (19 years) he always knew I was positive, as I shared that the second day we knew each other.  Have we always been careful?  Not at all, but I should add, most of the time.  This decision is of such a personal nature, that you will find comfort somewhere in the mix, but it will be totally a decision that you will have to make.  

Welcome to the dichotomy that is HIV....

Love,
The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2007, 01:15:27 PM »
Thunter,

Let's stick to the issue.  It was suggested that saliva is an infectious agent.  It is not.  I merely corrected blatantly incorrect information. 


Suit yourself, scottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.   Just trying to help.  This isn't my little tiff anyway.  It's yours.  Have at it.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2007, 01:24:47 PM »
Suit yourself, scottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.   Just trying to help.

Not trying to fight, just trying to correct misinformation.

What I said is correct.  Saliva is not an infectious agent.  There are no cases of HIV transmission from receiving a blow job.  Not in the entire span of this pandemic yet ignorance and misinformation still persists.  It is our collective duty to stamp out misinformation.  Ignorance is dangerous.  For pointing out misinformation, I am not sorry.  For being upset by the further dissemination of misinformation I am not sorry.  If I make a factually incorrect statement about something of significant importance, such as the modes of transmission of an infectious disease during a pandemic, I would welcome the correction. 

Let's stick to the issues.   
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 01:26:23 PM by scotttt »

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2007, 01:26:45 PM »
Thunter,

Let's stick to the issue.  It was suggested that saliva is an infectious agent.  It is not.  I merely corrected blatantly incorrect information.  No need to get so huffy.  Getting a "time out" here impacts my life very little.  I managed to pick up the pieces when I had my time out.  Should I get timed out for correcting irresponsibly incorrect information, I would be shocked.  I have addressed all concerned with kindness and respect.  I merely attacked the misinformation not the party disseminating it. 

What I said is correct.  Saliva is not an infectious agent.  There are no cases of HIV transmission from receiving a blow job.  Not in the entire span of this pandemic yet ignorance and misinformation still persists.  It is our collective duty to stamp out misinformation.  Ignorance is dangerous.  For pointing out misinformation, I am not sorry.  For being upset by the further dissemination of misinformation I am not sorry.  If I make a factually incorrect statement about something of significant importance, such as the modes of transmission of an infectious disease during a pandemic, I would welcome the correction. 

Let's stick to the issues.   

I'm not the least bit huffy, sweetness and light.  You've since updated and vastly expounded on your post to me, but my answer remains the same:

I was just trying to help you with a gentle reminder.  This is your little tiff here, not mine.  Have at it.

kthxbye!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 03:20:55 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Moffie65

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2007, 01:35:09 PM »
For the record Scott,

Infection via saliva was not stated, nor implied in post #25.  Saliva didn't become part of the conversation until you stated it, when I gave you that point in post #34. 

I think Keyite got my meaning and my intent in sharing my personal experience here.

Love,

The Bible contains 6 admonishments to homosexuals,
and 362 to heterosexuals.
This doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals,
It's just that they need more supervision.
Lynn Lavne

Offline scotttt

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2007, 01:35:28 PM »
Thunter,

Let's stick to the issue.  It was suggested that one can become infected with HIV from receiving a blow job.  This suggests that saliva is an infectious agent.  In the entire course of the pandemic, there is not one documented case of a person getting HIV by receiving a blow job.  To suggest that saliva is an infectous agent in this day and age is highly irresponsible.

That is the issue.

Offline BKNYLivin

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2007, 01:39:00 PM »
Very interesting topic - I know one or two people who also claim to have been infected through oral sex(giving bjs).
edited 'coz I mistakenly hit enter

I don't see how anyone can totally dismiss this as a possibility, scientific evidence or not. There are quite a few people walking around with all kinds of STDs in their mouths/throats - wouldn't that increase the risk of contracting HIV if they took a load or two?
Just a thought
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 01:42:08 PM by BKNYLivin »
Diagnosed 9/18/06
10/13/06 - CD4:449, 33%,  VL:>500,000
11/20/06 - CD4: 392  VL:425,000
02/08/07 - CD4: 361, 16.9% VL:133,000
02/13/07 - Started HAART: Atripla
03/08/07 - CD4:401, 23.8% VL:643
06/05/07 - CD4:614, 33.6% VL:225
09/14/07 - CD4:612, 37%  VL: <50
12/14/07 - CD4:582, 38.5% VL:<50
4/11/08 - CD4: 658, VL: <50
3/5/09 - CD4: 847, 49% VL: <50
7/29/09 - CD4: 965, 50.1% VL: <50
12/28/09 - CD4: 925, 49.2% vl <50
9/16/10 - CD4: 1011 vl: <50

Offline thunter34

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Re: Infected via oral sex - am I barking mad?
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2007, 01:44:49 PM »
Thunter,

Let's stick to the issue.  It was suggested that one can become infected with HIV from receiving a blow job.  This suggests that saliva is an infectious agent.  In the entire course of the pandemic, there is not one documented case of a person getting HIV by receiving a blow job.  To suggest that saliva is an infectous agent in this day and age is highly irresponsible.

That is the issue.

Girl, what is wrong with you??  Why are you still going on with me?  I already said (twice) above that I was only trying to give you a gentle caution against this very type of thing you're doing here....being confrontational with people and going on and on and on.  You have a richly illustrated history on here of being unable to "just drop it".  Like you are doing right here right now with me.  You can say what you want about cum, about saliva, about blowjobs...Hey, I'm a fan of all three.  

Forget I said anything to begin with.  Go ahead and say whatever you want to say.  It matters not.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

 


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