Quantcast

Subscribe to:
POZ magazine
Newsletters
Join POZ: Facebook MySpace Twitter Pinterest
Tumblr Google+ Flickr Instagram
POZ Personals
Sign In / Join
Username:
Password:
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 25, 2014, 04:10:13 PM

Login with username, password and session length


Members
  • Total Members: 23786
  • Latest: rvarona
Stats
  • Total Posts: 643573
  • Total Topics: 48969
  • Online Today: 203
  • Online Ever: 585
  • (January 07, 2014, 02:31:47 PM)
Users Online

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ/AIDSmeds Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Am I Infected?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ/AIDSmeds community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?  (Read 9655 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« on: March 17, 2007, 04:22:40 PM »
I wanna get feedback on this topic.

If someone has POZ or HIV+ or both in an online profile (ok, POZ personals and other specifically HIV related sites notwithstanding) does that count as disclosure?

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 04:25:32 PM »
Oooog... because you're relying on the assumption that people are going to read the fine print, as it were.

I'd say you're more than halfway home by putting it on the profile... but I would say it stops short of full disclosure.

It's like passive sonar as opposed to active sonar.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 04:27:04 PM »
Yes to the people that read this + their friends + the tralala and blah blah blah + the drama + whoever thinks that because you're hiv then you were/are/going to be a murderer/slut/whore/bitch/serialkiller/pig

Yes I had bad experiences disclosing that way, so now I've cleared those profiles and disclose privately.  :-[
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 04:43:39 PM »
I get your point. There's a great risk in disclosing over the internet, as the information is immediately and universally, irrevocably available.

I guess what i was asking is whether putting one's status in an online profile was legally sufficient (not that states or countries are in any way standardized) or morally sufficient insofar as disclosure was concerned.

My own status as an HIV positive blogger, and my easy Google to that effect, really makes the issue moot with me. But I wonder, because on several occasions I have had dates where I would throw out a comment about HIV and stuff and the other party would be shocked - having not read my online profile before concenting to meet for coffee or a beer.

I am always shocked too, because I assume that the other person is simply being cool with it, having all the information he needs available before the very first contact. Which is sort of the POINT of profile - related disclosure.

I mean, if spelling it out verbally on the first date is the only way to disclose, why bother putting it on an online profile to start with? Sure, if we are getting hot and heavy, and he tries something with an element of risk to it, I am probably going to say something.

But is it enough to have HIV and POZ in online profiles? How much of a conversation about my medical history is required? I actually get really testy when someone does not read my profiles until the third date in, and acts surprised. Is that misplaced guilt? Is it the assumption that people I meet are going to be as literate and intelligent as I? And to be fair, how literate do you need to be to read the acronyms HIV and POZ?

I am conflicted over this. It's a great argument towards serosorting.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline puertorico2006

  • Member
  • Posts: 957
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 04:46:42 PM »
I dont know if it counts as "full disclosure" because ive had people right me on gay.com when i opened up the profile "poz_pr" at first to get to know other positive people (or people that dont care)...and ive had people talk to me for hours/days and then want to meet up i guess for "fun" and then i mention the fact that im poz and they say "are you for real?" i didnt read that part (some people are just oblivious)

So i guess putting it on your profile doesnt really count (but can make the disclousre easier)
Infected Probably: may 2005
Diagnosed: 11/2006

11/28/2006 CD4:309 / VL: 1907 No meds yet
12/27/2006 CD4:339/  VL:1649 No meds yet
  4/28/2007 CD4:550/  VL:1800 No meds :-)

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2007, 04:49:18 PM »
An excellent question JK.

I'm entirely open to anyone about my HIV status. That's not to say I introduce myself as "Matty the Damned, gadfly and AIDS sufferer" but it's never something I hide.

But it's interesting the number of people who I've presumed knew my status (whether learning it online or otherwise) who express shock when I mention it explicitly to them.

"But you don't LOOK like you have it", they say.

It's still early in the AM down here and that's as far as I've gotten on this subject. I'll be back with more once I've had my second breakfast vodka.

MtD
(Who is explicit in all things)

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,314
  • His name is Carl.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2007, 04:55:32 PM »
This is a really interesting thread, Jonathan!  I'm curious to know if the profile disclosure would have enough legal muster to protect one against charges.  I would think it should if two people meet through an online site.  That sort of written disclaimer works for most every other sort of situation, doesn't it?  The moral issue is something else.  That's why when I hook up with someone online*, I go ahead and tend to look for someone else who has a positive designation in their profile.  It does seem that many people (through illiteracy, tweakiness or what have you) don't look past the most basic few words..."top, his place, now" and go with that.



* Humor me and let's all pretend like I'm getting some these days.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2007, 04:58:12 PM »
But it's interesting the number of people who I've presumed knew my status (whether learning it online or otherwise) who express shock when I mention it explicitly to them.

"But you don't LOOK like you have it", they say.

I have heard this many, many times from the negatrons as well. 

Personally, I make a point to tell everyone in private conversation.  I have found that it's best to assume that everyone is a moron.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline keyite

  • Member
  • Posts: 514
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2007, 05:08:51 PM »
No, sadly I don't think it can be seen as full and final disclosure. Like you I assume other guys are intelligent and that they bother to read the profile they're responding to. Most do, but I've come across at least a handful on Gaydar who simply hadn't noticed my declaration of HIV status. So unless they're obviously poz too I usually bring up the subject before actually meeting up. Still think it's worth stating it on the profile because it does the majority of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2007, 05:16:52 PM »
Yeah I've had one dude that insisted that we meet RIGHT NOW and I emailed back "you know I'm poz, right?" and he said "WHAT? YOU ARE POZ?" I replied "Yes, it's on my profile, did you even read my profile?" and he never replied.

Like aupoint, I disclose during private conversations and it's been working way better, most of the time people are "cool with it, but I'd rather be safe" (whatever that means), or "that's why condoms were invented, let's fuck, but since it must be difficult for you to find fucks now so maybe can you help me with my rent?" or "i'm poz too, let's swap loads" (ahhhhhh romance) or "thanks for the honesty, and I'd still like to meet you" (that one is on top of the list).

I don't think I look poz, I'm wearing jeans and a tshirt, is there anything special I should wear to look poz?  :o :o

When do you get "Full disclosure"? You have to have the partner sign a document that state he or she knows your status and is ready to engage in (check the box: []blowjob, [] handjob, [] kissing, [] rimming [] etc...). If someone becomes poz after having sex with you, email threads, profile info, chat/IM logs would help.

Milker
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Longislander

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,486
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2007, 05:34:45 PM »
Quote
let's fuck, but since it must be difficult for you to find fucks now so maybe can you help me with my rent?" 


that's too funny, did someone really say that?? lol

Having POZ or HIV+ in an online dating/sex profile in my neck of the woods would not only be disclosure, it would likely get a mention in the local bar rag...
infected 10/05 diagnosed 12-05
2/06   379/57000                    6/07 372/30500 25%   4/09 640/U/32% 
5/06   ?? /37000                     8/07 491/55000/24%    9/09 913/U/39%
8/06   349/9500 25%              11/07 515/68000/24     2/10 845/U/38%
9/06   507/16,000 30% !          2/08  516/116k/22%    7/10 906/80/39%
12/06 398/29000 26%             Start Atripla 3/08
3/07   402/80,000 29%            4/08  485/undet!/27
4/07   507/35,000 25%            7/08 625/UD/34%
                                                 11/08 684/U/36%

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2007, 05:41:06 PM »
If you want everything about disclose and the law neat and tidy why not just get everyone to sign a "release form" of some type verifying that you've stated your HIV status and that they recognize this?  Otherwise I suppose it's he said/she said unless you have 3rd parties as witnesses of some type.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline bear60

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,104
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2007, 06:05:30 PM »
I quess it wont hurt to offer my opinion here..... online profile disclosure does not count as disclosure in the real world.  Its necessary to disclose before getting naked.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2007, 06:11:01 PM »
that's too funny, did someone really say that?? lol

Yup :)

Its necessary to disclose before getting naked.

What? Not only i have to disclose but I have to get naked too?  :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2007, 07:43:36 PM »
Which begs the question.... disclosure while one or both parties is intoxicated. Is that disclosure? An event which might or might not be remembered seems hardly an improvement over an online presentation of one's status, don't you think?

Like I said, I am conflicted about this issue. I agree that assuming people are not illiterate morons is a stretch. But aside from drawing up a signed, notorized contract of disclosure, how responsible are we ... am I .... for someone else's ability to assimilate information?

If I meet someone in a bar, and disclose, and they tell me they are cool with it, and are behaving relatively rational, do we continue the conversation? What about the next morning when they claim to have no memory of the conversation? Am I a felon at that point? A rapist, even?

As Milker said, when we put our HIV status online, we do it at our peril - and in the not unreasonable expectation that it will be so noted. How far does this have to go? How can we ever be sure that a person is sane/rational/sober/literate enough to understand the words in a profile, or the words coming out of our own mouths? And what is our responsibility towards this end?

I know, I know, serosort. But that is a stopgap measure, I think.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Joe K

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • Posts: 3,797
  • 31 Years Poz
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2007, 08:04:10 PM »
Disclosure in a profile would not qualify as true disclosure because it generally must be done person to person.  But the law also makes mention of culpable negligence or contributory negligence which I believe would apply if you shared disclosure while you were both in any altered state.  The law assumes you will also protect yourself, so unless you deliberately lie and say you are negative, it is not your responsibility to determine the capability of your potential sex partner to understand the implications of your disclosure.

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2007, 08:13:01 PM »
Which begs the question.... disclosure while one or both parties is intoxicated. Is that disclosure? An event which might or might not be remembered seems hardly an improvement over an online presentation of one's status, don't you think?

Like I said, I am conflicted about this issue. I agree that assuming people are not illiterate morons is a stretch. But aside from drawing up a signed, notorized contract of disclosure, how responsible are we ... am I .... for someone else's ability to assimilate information?

I have a general rule regarding disclosure and sex.   

If you're fucked up, and I'm not... it's my bad.
If I'm fucked up, and you're not... it's your bad.
If we're both fucked up... it's no one's bad.

This applies to any possible sexual situation... its implications are thus: if you're sober, don't hook up with drunk people.  This has nothing to do with your serostatus inherently, it's just a good idea... but I think that this could have extra weight if you're poz.  I have never been in a situation where I was sober and took a drunk person home.  Mostly because I'm an alcoholic... but also because it seems creepy.

If I'm drunk, and you're not... I'll disclose... but what you do is totally on you, because you're in full command of your faculties. 

If we're both fucked up, I'll disclose... but did the poor neggie hook up with the walking plague when they were both drunk?  Sorry, Charlie.  People do lots of things they wouldn't ordinarily do when they're wasted.  And in my opinion, me being intoxicated in combination with disclosure removes any possible ethical culpability that I may have.  I've never been so drunk that I "forgot" I'm poz.  So this rule works.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2007, 09:01:55 PM »
Well it's not just drunkenness, there are drugs too, and I've never done drugs so I don't know if my partner is drugged or not, I don't know how to recognize symptoms of being drugged and knowing nothing about them I wouldn't know what questions to ask.

Milker
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2007, 09:04:24 PM »
My rules go for drugs, too.

How to tell if someone is fucked up on drugs.

Tiny pupils+constant scratching= heroin.
Wide eyed+proclamations of friendship and love= E.
Frequent trips to bathroom+large pupils= coke.
Completely fucking irritating+absolutely horny= meth.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline northernguy

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,347
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2007, 09:15:13 PM »
If you meet someone online and your profile says poz, you'd think that would count for something legally.  After all, that's how you're advertising the "product" right?  What does that say about someone's attention span that they want to meet up and share an intimate experience with you, but can't take the two seconds it takes to read a profile?!
Apr 28/06 cd4 600 vl 10,600 cd% 25
Nov 8/09 cd4 510 vl 49,5000 cd% 16
Jan 16/10 cd4 660 vl 54,309 cd% 16
Feb 17/10 Started Atripla
Mar 7/10 cd4 710 vl 1,076 cd% 21
Apr 18/10 cd4 920 vl 268 cd% 28
Jun 19/10 cd4 450 vl 60 cd% 25
Aug 15/10 cd4 680 vl 205 cd% 27
Apr 3/11 cd4 780 vl <40 cd% 30
Jul 17/11 cd4 960 vl <40 cd%33
April 15/12 cd4 1,010 vl <40 cd% 39
April 20/12 Switched to Viramune + Truvada
Aug 2/12 cd4 1040, vl <40, cd% 38
Oct 19 cd4 1,110 vl <40 cd% 41

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2007, 09:16:47 PM »
Which one is it when they keep playing with their tongue piercing and are unable to get hard and still keep trying to get hard for hours?

/edited to add:

And I've already given up and i'm sleeping /
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2007, 09:24:38 PM »
Quote from: aupointillimite

Tiny pupils+constant scratching= heroin.

What?  No nodding out?
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2007, 09:30:22 PM »
What?  No nodding out?

Barbara, please (me love you longtime!)... by the time I was on the nod, either a) everyone could tell what I was on, or b) I had already gone home.    :D
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2007, 09:32:40 PM »
Which one is it when they keep playing with their tongue piercing and are unable to get hard and still keep trying to get hard for hours?

/edited to add:

And I've already given up and i'm sleeping /

Something speedy.

Probably meth.

If they keep disappearing for "potty breaks" then it's coke.

Speedies make it virtually impossible to achieve an erection and also make one engage in repetitive behaviors.

For example, back during my more Kate Moss-y days, I used to rub my chin obsessively whilst on the blow.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline jyngfilm

  • Member
  • Posts: 121
  • AHH! I knew it, Betty had balls
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2007, 09:41:19 PM »
and alcohol ? 
munchausen by proxy is not an out in my case

Offline David_CA

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,246
  • Joined: March 2006
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2007, 09:42:10 PM »
All this reinforces, to me, the fact that if one wants to remain negative, they must take steps to ensure (as much as possible) their safety and not rely on someones disclosing.  People are generally HIV+ prior to knowing it from test results.  If one was neg on the last HIV test, declares themself neg, but has been infected, are they responsible.  Disclosure is only useful if the information is accurate.  This is not to say that one does not need to disclose.  The only way that HIV- people will remain that way is if they protect themselves. 

David
Black Friday 03-03-2006
03-23-06 CD4 359 @27.4% VL 75,938
06-01-06 CD4 462 @24.3% VL > 100,000
08-15-06 CD4 388 @22.8% VL >  "
10-21-06 CD4 285 @21.9% VL >  "
  Atripla started 12-01-2006
01-08-07 CD4 429 @26.8% VL 1872!
05-08-07 CD4 478 @28.1% VL 740
08-03-07 CD4 509 @31.8% VL 370
11-06-07 CD4 570 @30.0% VL 140
02-21-08 CD4 648 @32.4% VL 600
05-19-08 CD4 695 @33.1% VL < 48 undetectable!
08-21-08 CD4 725 @34.5%
11-11-08 CD4 672 @39.5%
02-11-09 CD4 773 @36.8%
05-11-09 CD4 615 @36.2%
08-19-09 CD4 770 @38.5%
11-19-09 CD4 944 @33.7%
02-17-10 CD4 678 @39.9%  
06-03-10 CD4 768 @34.9%
09-21-10 CD4 685 @40.3%
01-10-11 CD4 908 @36.3%
05-23-11 CD4 846 @36.8% VL 80
02-13-12 CD4 911 @41.4% VL<20
You must be the change you want to see in the world.  Mahatma Gandhi

Offline jyngfilm

  • Member
  • Posts: 121
  • AHH! I knew it, Betty had balls
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2007, 09:51:32 PM »
hello David
~jordon
munchausen by proxy is not an out in my case

Offline curmudgeonly

  • Member
  • Posts: 50
  • Pet the pussy
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2007, 10:01:32 PM »
You might as well disclose you're an axe murderer on online "dating" sites since so many people fail to read one's carefully and wittily composed profile.  I don't do the dating thing any longer but when I did I always talked to the guy on the phone or exchanged email and made sure he knew before I bothered setting up a meeting. 

"Oh, I didn't read that."  End of story but minimal loss of my precious time.
Life is full of pain, I'm cruisin' through my brain
And I fill my nose with snow and go Rimbaud,
Go Rimbaud, go Rimbaud,
And go Johnny go, and do the watusi, oh do the watusi

Offline Queen Tokelove

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,033
  • Smokey the Smurf
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2007, 11:57:25 PM »
I will not give my 2 cents on this topic because of my past posts about disclosure and I do not want to sound like a broken record but it is interesting to see others opinions...
Started Atripla/Ziagen on 9/13/07.
10/31/07 CD4-265 VL- undetectable
2/6/08 CD4- 401 VL- undetectable
5/7/08 CD4- 705 VL- undetectable
6/4/08 CD4- 775 VL- undetectable
8/6/08 CD4- 805 VL- undetectable
11/13/08 CD4- 774 VL--undetectable
2/4/09  CD4- 484  VL- 18,000 (2 months off meds)
3/3/09---Starting Back on Meds---
4/27/09 CD4- 664 VL-- undetectable
6/17/09 CD4- 438 VL- 439
8/09 CD4- 404 VL- 1,600
01-22-10-- CD4- 525 VL- 59,000
Cherish the simple things life has to offer

The Royal Blog

Offline DavidinCA92284

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2007, 12:33:10 AM »
My 2 cents . . . Companies are using website personals to determine whether prospective employees are moral or ethical in their behavior.   Job offers - especially to those just graduating college - often include questions regarding web exposure.   So, in this instance, companies are using the information provided on website personals as legitimate in making hiring decisions.

I would venture to guess that anything that is included in a personal ad can be good enough to count as being "informed" and could probably hold up in a court fight.   But I don't think it would be enough as a "final" warning.   Final warning to me is when you've agreed to have sex and as you're waving the condom in the air as the whether it goes on or stays off, the 'information' is conveyed one last time.   So much for romance.
- david

Offline racingmind

  • Member
  • Posts: 236
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2007, 12:52:24 AM »
I agree with David NC.....it is ultimately the negative persons responsibility to protect themselves.  I did and stayed negative for 20 years.  It's just too bad I fucked up and messed around with the wrong person while under the influence. 

BTW, that "wrong" person didn't disclose (until way after the fact), and I didn't think to ask.  I blame myself for being so fucking stupid and careless.  20 years of playing it safe and smart went down the tubes in a matter of minutes....
Tested Negative: 5/06
Tested Positive: 9/06 
9/06: CD4: 442 (28%) VL: +100,000
10/06: CD4: 323 (25%) VL: 243,440
11/06: CD4: 405 (28%) VL: 124,324
12/06: CD4: 450 (29%) VL: 114,600
1/07: CD4: 440 (27%) VL: 75,286
3/07: CD4: 459 (30%) VL: 44,860
5/07: CD4: 353 (24%) VL: 50,852
7/07: CD4: 437 (29%) VL: 39,475
9/07: CD4: 237 (32%) VL: 372,774
10/07: CD4: 324 (27%) VL: 115,454 
Started Atripla: 10/07
11/07: CD4: 524 (?%) VL: Undetectable!
2/08: CD4: 653 (35%) VL: undetectable
5/08: CD4: 822 (40%) VL: undetectable
8/08: CD4: 626 (35%) VL: undetectable
12/08: CD4: 619 (36%) VL: undetectable
3/09: CD4: 802 (38%) VL: undetectable
7/09: CD4: 1027 (43%) VL: not tested
10/09: CD4: 1045 (43%) VL: undetectable

Offline red_Dragon888

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,811
  • Love and Be Love in Return
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2007, 03:11:30 AM »
If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, will the dish run away with the spoon?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=I3ba3lnFHik

“Neither look forward where there is doubt nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything o

Offline Central79

  • Member
  • Posts: 527
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2007, 05:25:29 AM »
I think this is a really interesting question. The UK has recently had some high-profile HIV prosecutions, and the CPS (Criminal Prosecution Service) over here has had a consultation asking for opinion on this - generally the law in this country is getting pushed towards having to disclose and doing it in a clear way.

Personally, I think that disclosure on a website constitutes disclosure. I was on gaydar with a (headless) photograph and my HIV status up front in the text of the profile. I had a line by itself saying "First up, I'm HIV+, so if that's a problem for you - move on'. I can't remember anybody not having seen that. I went on to be witty, self deprecating and humourous in a seperate paragraph.

The other thing I did was when I was being IM'd I'd make the other person acknowledge that he'd read it in an IM, by asking a question like "are you happy sucking my cock?". Hell, I don't want to meet up if you're not. Then you've got an internet record of a) disclosure and b) the other person being aware of it. Because people in the UK are so backwards about being upfront about their status, it was often the first thing people remarked on in my profile anyway. I think this constitutes an excellent defense the way the law is heading if something nasty was to crop up.

It's a lot less ambiguous than disclosing in person, as there is not a record of what was said. Just like rape, it's one person's word against the other after the fact.

At the end of the day, I don't think the law has a role here - generally I think it should stay out of people's bedrooms, unless there is violence involved. To me, treating HIV like a sort of viral GBH is sophistry - unless there's coercion or an actual sexual assault involved the responsibility is with both parties to prevent transmission. For me this means disclosure. I disclose because it makes me more at ease with somebody else, and the sex is consequently better. Not because of the law.

I've never disclosed in a bar, like Jonathan. How do you go about doing that? I think I'd walk part way home with somebody, and tell them - but that could be as awkward as hell! I'd worry that everybody in the bar would start wispering behind my back.

Interesting to read all the points of view here.

M x.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline newt

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,885
  • the one and original newt
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2007, 07:13:25 AM »
Legally JK I dunno...

People can be pretty dumb esp. when they're looking to be dumb with pretty people...just saying

- matt

Now playing: Indigo Girls, Closer to Fine
"The object is to be a well patient, not a good patient"

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2007, 12:47:02 PM »
Oooog... because you're relying on the assumption that people are going to read the fine print, as it were.

I'd say you're more than halfway home by putting it on the profile... but I would say it stops short of full disclosure.

It's like passive sonar as opposed to active sonar.


WHich begs the question, why disclose at all online and put ones' self at risk for, as milker and longislander pointed out, the world at large having access to some pretty sensitive information if, at the end of the day, it doesn't count as disclosure?

Its normally pretty hard to ignore or overlook HIV or POZ in an online profile, but if there is significant risk of the "wrong" people finding out about a person, and only a "halfway" or "passive" opportunity to fulfil the moral and ethical obligations insofar as disclosure is concerned, why place it out there at all?

Seems what I am hearing is that there are no really significant upsides to online disclosure, and that the conversation must still take place in person. I find that ironic, in that online disclosure is far more quantifiable should anyone have a problem with the concept, than the s/he said-s/he said factor inherent in private conversations (or the lack thereof).

Insofar as bars are concerned, it's been an easy five or six years since I met anyone at a bar, and even then, exchanged numbers and email rather than going home together. One of the reasons I don't go out much is that A) I dont drink and drive, and B) shouting one's HIV status over a sound system seems a little much to ask, even for this activist. Waiting until we are at his place seems like something of a bait and switch to me.

I did have one guy write me after we had flirted and stuff at a bar and ask if he needed to get tested because we kissed goodnight. So I totally get the fact that even in this decade, gay men can be utterly moronic regarding their health and safety.

Still, as a fan of the quantifiable, I am inclined to think that online disclosure is sufficient. Vased of course on the possibly faulty assumption that I am not dealing with someone of a diminished mental state, either as the result of drug/alcohol intoxication or bone-shattering stupidity.

Still, all in all, a great argument against those who take the risk of online profile disclosure, as the consensus seems to be that it carries a rather low benefit to risk ratio.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline pozinbama

  • Member
  • Posts: 74
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2007, 12:53:24 PM »
I think that putting it in your profile should be counted as disclosure. Especially if you are talking about a hookup site. Unless you put a little + sign at the end and don't explain what it means. But I'm one of these funny people that think even if there are no words spoken that it is up to each individual to take responsibility for their own bodies.

Offline Buckmark

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,532
  • Would you like to tie me up with your ties, Ty?
    • Henry's Home Page
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2007, 01:26:04 PM »
I think online disclosure needs to be followed up with a "one-on-one" conversation in person.  Stating that you are HIV+ in an online profile might help weed out some folks, but only if they actually bother to read the entire profile, which not everyone does.  IANAL (I am not a layer) -- I have no idea what legally constitutes disclosure, but it seems to me that having it in your online profile could only help your case if you were accused of failing to disclose.  But I think there does need to be a one-on-one conversation.  I think someone mentioned this below, but I'm surprised there is no requirement to have potential partners sign a release indicating they know you are HIV+.  How romantic...  ::)

I agree with many of the posters here who have stated that it is basically up to each individual to take responsibility for their own bodies.  Unfortunately, disclosure laws appear to put the responsibility on those who are already poz, IMHO. 

Speaking of disclosure laws, has anyone ever heard of them being use to prosecute anyone other than HIV+ folks?  I mean, there are a lot of other unpleasant STDs out there, though admittedly few with the repercussions of HIV (though Hep C comes to mind).  Somehow, I've always suspected that these laws were just meant to cater to people's irrational fears over HIV, rather than really intended to prevent spread of STDs.

For me, I have had no negative repercussions that I can recall from disclosing my status in my profile on gay.com.  I still get just as few responses as ever.   :(   I thought it would be such a big step, but in reality seems to have been almost inconsequential.

Regards,

Henry
"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things:
     One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell.
     The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love."
- Butch Hancock, Musician, The Flatlanders

Offline Bucko

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,947
  • You need a shine, missy!
    • The Spin Cycle
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2007, 02:05:35 PM »


Its normally pretty hard to ignore or overlook HIV or POZ in an online profile, but if there is significant risk of the "wrong" people finding out about a person, and only a "halfway" or "passive" opportunity to fulfil the moral and ethical obligations insofar as disclosure is concerned, why place it out there at all?

Insofar as bars are concerned, it's been an easy five or six years since I met anyone at a bar, and even then, exchanged numbers and email rather than going home together. One of the reasons I don't go out much is that A) I dont drink and drive, and B) shouting one's HIV status over a sound system seems a little much to ask, even for this activist. Waiting until we are at his place seems like something of a bait and switch to me.

Still, all in all, a great argument against those who take the risk of online profile disclosure, as the consensus seems to be that it carries a rather low benefit to risk ratio.


Jonathan-

I selected the two points to quote above because they relate to the two salient points I can bring to the conversation:

My profile on Manhunt not only states that I am HIV+ and that I'm looking for HIV+ bottoms in the text copy, but also underneath in the appropriate checklist spot. Additionally, I use serostatus as an icebreaker when approaching someone ("Nice ass, you poz?") or when responding to the approach of others ("Hot profile, nice pix. You poz?"). It's the ultimate qualifier.

In bars my approach is different, I guess. About two weeks ago I went out looking for that fraternal comradeship one finds in gay bars (ie: not looking to hook-up), conversation and sociability, as I was feeling kinda lonely and withdrawn.

The first bar was a very popular "cruise" bar, no dancing and sound system not set at deafen. On the patio outside where smokers congregate I responded to a "How ya doin'" with a guy who was stereotypically "pozlook" (older, lipoface, etc) and we struck up a conversation. he was intelligent and witty, but not my type (despite much smutty smalltalk).

I moved on to another bar in the same complex (everything here in SoFla is in a strip-mall). That one had a video lounge in front with a boom-boom dancefloor on the other side of some doors. I was grabbed by a cute-ish younger man (mid-late twenties) who pulled me close and began a face-suck and fondle in the darker dance portion of the place. He was obviously intoxicated, and I eased away after a couple of minutes with a thanks-but-no-thanks. He looked confused and asked me if I didn't find him attractive. Not wanting to dwell on his appearance (again, he did little for me, and I wasn't hunting ass that night anyway), I just spoke into his ear that I was HIV positive and that I could tell that he wasn't. He looked confused for a second before smiling and wishing me well.

I also made a pit-stop at The Ramrod on the way home, but with similar results. Maybe because I wasn't actively looking my mindset was in a different place, and in that place no one seemed all that interesting. But my mind kept turning over the idea of how much easier everything is online, without the negotiating and public disclosure drama. If they read enough to know that I'm a top, then they read enough to know that I'm poz as well. And in case they miss anything, a few minutes of notes passed back and forth dispel any lingering doubts.

I guess in brief, it comes down to this: face-to-face disclosure in the public arena of a bar is potentially a minefield of rejection, one that is witnessed by everyone around you. Online hook-ups are easier and cost-effective (no beer or water need be purchased), and any issue of disclosure is neatly tied up in a few simple qualifying written exchanges.

Brent
(Who serosorts exclusively)

/edited to spell-check/
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 02:09:26 PM by Bucko »
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2007, 02:20:42 PM »
I'm with Buckyball.

This why I'm now in my second trimester of becoming a serosorter.

Too late to abort; I can only go on with this.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2007, 02:26:58 PM »
I'm with Buckyball.

This why I'm now in my second trimester of becoming a serosorter.

Too late to abort; I can only go on with this.


This is me refraining from quoting Sarah Silverman.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2007, 02:30:37 PM »
"On the law that requires women to wait twenty-four hours before they are permitted to have an abortion: I think it's a good law. the other day I wanted to go get an abortion. I really wanted an abortion, but then I thought about it and it turned out I was just thirsty."

I couldn't help myself.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Bucko

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,947
  • You need a shine, missy!
    • The Spin Cycle
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2007, 02:40:40 PM »
I understand that the crux of the discussion is trying to remain true to oneself (and the law) while not insisting on serosorting.

But my experience is that this is like attempting a jigsaw puzzle with no concept of the finished picture and with more than half of the pieces missing. It's too much of a challenge and offers too little by way of reward upon completion.

Brent
(Who is always the pragmatist)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2007, 02:43:50 PM »
I understand that the crux of the discussion is trying to remain true to oneself (and the law) while not insisting on serosorting.

But my experience is that this is like attempting a jigsaw puzzle with no concept of the finished picture and with more than half of the pieces missing. It's too much of a challenge and offers too little by way of reward upon completion.

Brent
(Who is always the pragmatist)

I agree.

"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline Central79

  • Member
  • Posts: 527
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2007, 04:34:23 PM »
So what is the state of play legally in the US? I understood it varies state by state... I heard a story that if an HIV positive person spits at another person (admittedly disgusting) in one US state it would be classified as quite a serious assault, by virtue of the HIV alone.

In the UK at the moment you don't have to disclose. But you do have to not be deemed "reckless". This basically means wearing a condom. It also means that the other person can't consent to take the risk of infected if they do know you're status, like you cannot consent to any other assault.

This seems okay, until you have policemen trawling through suspect's rubbish to try and find evidence, or appealing for previous partners to come forward and get tested. It's can sometimes be a total fishing expedition, with the police not knowing if you're positive or not, and no proven transmission to another person, but quite intrusive and agressive ways of getting a conviction.
Diagnosed January 2006
26/1/06 - 860 (22%), VL > 500,000
24/4/06 - 820 (24.6%), VL 158,000
13/7/06 - 840 (22%), VL 268,000
1/11/06 - 680 (21%), VL 93,100
29/1/07 - 1,020 (27.5%), VL 46,500
15/5/07 - 1,140 (22.8%), VL not done.
13/10/07 - 759 (23.2%), VL 170,000
6/11/07 - 630 (25%), VL 19,324
14/1/08 - 650 (21%), VL 16,192
15/4/08 - 590 (21%), VL 40, 832

Offline bear60

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,104
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2007, 04:43:55 PM »
Now I understand why friends of mine were getting the HAZMAT tatoo on their bodies....so it can be brought up in conversation...."I never saw that tat before!"  "Whats it mean?"


I am not suggesting that a tatoo is the answer. I am just reporting how certain individuals personally dealt with the disclosure issue.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline aupointillimite

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,229
  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2007, 04:46:54 PM »
So what is the state of play legally in the US? I understood it varies state by state... I heard a story that if an HIV positive person spits at another person (admittedly disgusting) in one US state it would be classified as quite a serious assault, by virtue of the HIV alone.

In the UK at the moment you don't have to disclose. But you do have to not be deemed "reckless". This basically means wearing a condom. It also means that the other person can't consent to take the risk of infected if they do know you're status, like you cannot consent to any other assault.

This seems okay, until you have policemen trawling through suspect's rubbish to try and find evidence, or appealing for previous partners to come forward and get tested. It's can sometimes be a total fishing expedition, with the police not knowing if you're positive or not, and no proven transmission to another person, but quite intrusive and agressive ways of getting a conviction.

Here in Virginia, if I fuck a negatron without disclosing... regardless of whether a condom is used or not... it's termed "reckless endangerment," with a maximum fine of one year in jail.  This law also applies to Hep B and syphilis.

This law passed in 2004.

To my knowledge, the number of people thus far convicted under this law is zero.
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2007, 04:51:16 PM »
For the record Matty the Damned believes that revealing your status online constitutes disclosure. Whether or not this is legal is a matter of supreme indifference to him. He regularly ignores laws that get in the way of him doing whatever the fuck he wants to do.

He encourages others to do the same.

MtD

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2007, 06:21:01 PM »
Now I understand why friends of mine were getting the HAZMAT tatoo on their bodies....so it can be brought up in conversation...."I never saw that tat before!"  "Whats it mean?"


I am not suggesting that a tatoo is the answer. I am just reporting how certain individuals personally dealt with the disclosure issue.

Call  me sheltered (or just clueless... we know I'm not sheltered) but I didn't learn what that meant until a few years ago.  I don't think that should count as disclosure unless you really think everyone is going to get it.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline bear60

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,104
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2007, 06:29:40 PM »
OK I'll call you sheltered.  Thats why southern boys are so popular!!! ;) ;)
Seriously, I agreee having a tatoo does not equal disclosure, but it does allow one to "break the ice" I guess. What do I know.  It was very popular there for awhile.
Poz Bear Type in Philadelphia

Offline Bucko

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,947
  • You need a shine, missy!
    • The Spin Cycle
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2007, 12:00:16 AM »
For the record Matty the Damned believes that revealing your status online constitutes disclosure. Whether or not this is legal is a matter of supreme indifference to him. He regularly ignores laws that get in the way of him doing whatever the fuck he wants to do.

He encourages others to do the same.

MtD

Should anyone ever ask what I mean when I say that I'm an anarchist, I'll often as not paraphrase the last two sentences of Matty's quote above.

And Philly:
Call  me sheltered (or just clueless... we know I'm not sheltered) but I didn't learn what that meant until a few years ago.  I don't think that should count as disclosure unless you really think everyone is going to get it.
Clueless works for me, babe  :D

Brent
(Who is not the Antichrist, just an anarchist)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline fearless

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2007, 01:37:07 AM »
JK,

It likely depends on the law where you are.

Personally, I think disclosure laws suck. They don't stop HIV transmission, and place too much of the responsibility onto the +ve person.

In New South Wales, I would say the mere publication of your status does not count as disclosure. Short of adopting Philly's suggestion of a signed waiver, we are pretty much stuffed here as far as the law is concerned. The public health act requires disclosure of all sexually transmissible medical conditions prior to any sexual intercourse, whether or not you use a condom. The second limb of this law is that the other person has to 'be informed of and voluntarily agree to accept the risk of transmission'. How you can prove any of this in a one on one bedroom situation, without some form of signed waiver is beyond me. The penalty for breaking this law is $5,500.

On top of this, we are also subject to the Crimes Act, under which if you intentionally or recklessly infect somebody with HIV (or any other 'serious' disease). You can be prosecuted for Malicious Infliction of Grievace Bodily Harm and senteced up to 25 years in gaol (jail, for you Americans). You do something 'recklessly' if you do it believing there is a risk of something happening as a result and going ahead anyway. ie if you have HIV, have sex without a condom and do not disclose first, you are likely to be considered as having acted recklessly. This also applies to a person who has reason to think they might have HIV.

It is also possible, although I'm not sure if it has been tested in the Courts, that any consent by the -ve person may not be viewed as real consent if alcohol or drugs were involved. That is, if the other person says they were too pissed or too high to remember disclosure or too pissed to give real consent, you are probably up shit creek without a paddle. However, there is also a chance the Aussie courts would take into account English cases where the courts have said that if your partner knows you have HIV and consents to the risk of contracting HIV by having sex then the HIV +ve person has a defence.

Mostly, I just try to forget these laws exist as they do my head in when I think too hard about them.
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline jimw

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2007, 09:48:36 AM »
If you met someone though, say POZ personals, and it is in your POZ personal profile, then yes, I think that would be legally sufficient notice.  However, simply having it in an on-line profile is not "legal notice" to the world, or potential sexual partners, that you have HIV/AIDS. 

I personally think the "HIV Criminilization" laws are misplaced, archaic and a hysteric response to HIV/AIDS.  What ever happend to shared responsibility?  The laws place the responsibility square on the shoulders of those with HIV/AIDS to tell their sexual partner their status - what ever happend on acknowledging the responsibility of someone to ask their sexual partner his/her status?

Personally, I am only interested in going out with guys who have HIV/AIDS.  My decision to serosort, however, has nothing to do with these laws, which I feel are nothing more that an ill socitey's need for retribution, and have nothing to do with stopping the spread of HIV - after all, its been 20 plus years since most of these laws were enacted and HIV/AIDS is still here and still spreading!!!




Offline jkinatl2

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,007
  • Doo. Dah. Dipp-ity.
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2007, 10:00:37 AM »
  However, simply having it in an on-line profile is not "legal notice" to the world, or potential sexual partners, that you have HIV/AIDS. 

Can you - or anyone - quantify this assertion with legal precedent? I understand feeling that it is not ethically or morally sufficient, but it seems FAR more quantifiable than a private conversation, legally speaking.



"Many people, especially in the gay community, turn to oral sex as a safer alternative in the age of AIDS. And with HIV rates rising, people need to remember that oral sex is safer sex. It's a reasonable alternative."

-Kimberly Page-Shafer, PhD, MPH

Welcome Thread

Offline ACinKC

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,994
  • Bring it VIRUS! #2 Ranked In-crowd Member!
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2007, 10:20:20 AM »
WELL, I guess if I was a lawyer.  And jonathan was my HIV+ client and he was being sued by someone saying that he didnt disclose, but it was clearly on his profile.  My arguement would probably be about how online stings to catch child predators use "profile" information such as their ages to convict, and therefore in the eyes of the court they are sufficient enough to convict then they are sufficient enough to be considered full disclosure.  In addition to the fact that there was no OMISSION of facts regarding the HIV status.  It was out front for all to see.  I think we have ourselves a winner.


It would make for an interesting case to be sure.
LIFE is not a race to the grave with the intention of arriving safely
in a pretty and well-preserved body, but, rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming--WOW! WHAT A
RIDE!!!

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2007, 11:39:43 AM »
WELL, I guess if I was a lawyer.  And jonathan was my HIV+ client and he was being sued by someone saying that he didnt disclose, but it was clearly on his profile.  My arguement would probably be about how online stings to catch child predators use "profile" information such as their ages to convict, and therefore in the eyes of the court they are sufficient enough to convict then they are sufficient enough to be considered full disclosure.  In addition to the fact that there was no OMISSION of facts regarding the HIV status.  It was out front for all to see.  I think we have ourselves a winner.


It would make for an interesting case to be sure.

I should add that in that case if you have IM's with someone and clearly discuss the issue that you maintain a log of the on-line conversation.  I know with many IM applications you can do this feature electronically.  That is how they do it with on-line predators on NBC!
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline jimw

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2007, 12:05:35 PM »
Can you - or anyone - quantify this assertion with legal precedent? I understand feeling that it is not ethically or morally sufficient, but it seems FAR more quantifiable than a private conversation, legally speaking.





I hate to admit what I do for a living - but I am a lawyer.  The reason I said it would not be "legal notice" to the world that you have HIV/AIDS is that there is no obligation for a person to search the internet for information on an individual so it could not constitute knowledge, even constructive knowledge.  As I said, if you have it on a web site and you met that individual through that web site, for example on POZ Personals, then it probably could be argued that it was not only constructive knowlwege but actual knowledge.   

I am completely against the criminilization of HIV statues/laws.  The serve no purpose to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS - the alleged reason for the laws.  We should not use criminal laws to deal with conduct that carries the risk of HIV transmission.  These laws don’t target people who intentionally set out to infect other individuals.  The vast majority of these laws simply require that the positive partner in a sex act was aware of his or her status and did not reveal it.  Transmission is not required by any state.  In my mind, these laws undermine real prevention strategies, create a serious risk for the continued spread of the disease by creating a false sense of security and are nothing more than a society’s need for revenge and retribution. 

Offline fearless

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2007, 07:26:51 PM »
I'm no lawyer, JK, but have to deal with privacy legislation a fair bit in my job. Under our Privacy Act, publication of personal information does equate to disclosure, which if done without the express permission of the person amounts to a breach of the Act.

However, I'm not sure how it stacks up for disclosure of ones status. You would need to establish a few facts. Firstly, that the disclosure was actually there on the website on the date of the 'incident', that the disclosure was prominent and not hidden within other material. The words used may also be important - simply stating 'poz' may not be enough (I can see it being argued in a court that the term 'poz' may simply refer to ones disposition ie a positive outlook on life, and does not equal disclosure).

You also need to look at the wording of the actual law in your country or state. Where I live, I am also hamstrung with the additional burden of establishing that the other person has voluntarily accepted the risk. That is, disclosure itself is not good enough. I not only have to establish that I have disclosed, but also that the other person has voluntarily accepted the risk. If they are drunk or high, a court may find that they were not in a position to accept the risk.

Thankfully, these things are rarely prosecuted, but it does happen.

Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline milker

  • Member
  • Posts: 4,034
  • Protected phone sex
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2007, 07:56:20 PM »
And then there is the chaser that tells you he's poz but he's not, gets poz then realizes that this was not really a good idea and sues..

That's a lot of "whatifs"

Is there a case that has gone to court?

Milker.
mid-dec: stupid ass
mid-jan: seroconversion
mid-feb: poz
mar 07: cd4 432 (35%) vl 54000
may 07: cd4 399 (28%) vl 27760
jul 07: cd4 403 (26%) vl 99241
oct 07: cd4 353 (24%) vl 29993
jan 08: cd4 332 (26%) vl 33308
mar 08: cd4 392 (23%) vl 75548
jun 08: cd4 325 (27%) vl 45880
oct 08: cd4 197 (20%) vl 154000 <== aids diagnosis
nov 2 08 start Atripla
nov 30 08: cd4 478 (23%) vl 1880 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
feb 19 09: cd4 398 (24%) vl 430 getting there!
apr 23 09: cd4 604 (29%) vl 50 woohoo :D :D
jul 30 09: cd4 512 (29%) vl undetectable :D :D
may 27 10: cd4 655 (32%) vl undetectable :D :D

Now accepting applications from blowjob ninjas™

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2007, 08:17:31 PM »
Is there a case that has gone to court?

A few "inflicting grevious bodily disease" cases have gone to court in NSW over the last few years. If memory serves they all involved HIV+ straight men infecting unsuspecting women. In at least one case the miscreant lied to the poor wench in question.

As I recall, all resulted in gaol terms for the wicked perpetrator.

MtD

Offline fearless

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,191
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2007, 09:38:42 PM »
There was also a recent case in Queensland.

And, this particular case I find somewhat problematic. A gay couple having unprotected sex for a couple of months, initially one guy HIV +ve the other -ve. In the end, the -ve guy became HIV +ve and claimed the first guy never disclosed. The +ve guy claimed that he did disclose and that they reached a mutual decision not to use condoms.

I've not read the transcripts of the case, but at the end of the day they did not believe that the +ve guy had disclosed and that the -ve guy consented. How they reached this conclusion I do not know. The +ve guy was sentenced to 10 years gaol.

Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline Matty the Damned

  • Member
  • Posts: 12,238
  • Ninja Please
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2007, 03:39:20 AM »
I was listening to the news this afternoon and apparently some poofter from Melbourne is being prosecuted to death for spreading Teh QueerPlague about like confetti. I'll dig up a link.

MtD

Offline jimw

  • Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2007, 09:46:00 AM »


Is there a case that has gone to court?

Milker.

there have been some prosecutions; mostly against heterosexual men who had unprotected sex with women.  There was a case last year in the UK where the gentleman was convicted of reckless HIV transmission after evidence was presented that he had unprotected sex with numerous men, some of who were HIV-postiive themselves.  There was also a prosecution in New Jersey in 1990 where a HIV positive man was convicted of attempted murder, assault, and terroristic threats following an incident in which he allegedly bit and spat on guards at a county jail. 

Offline Miss Philicia

  • Member
  • Posts: 24,227
  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2007, 12:06:25 PM »
I was listening to the news this afternoon and apparently some poofter from Melbourne is being prosecuted to death for spreading Teh QueerPlague about like confetti. I'll dig up a link.

MtD

I just encountered that story myself... rather disturbing if you ask me.  Clearly this case seems to cross over to "mentally disturbed":

source

Quote
HIV positive man held orgies 'to infect others'
March 20, 2007 11:37am

AN HIV-positive Melbourne man organised orgies to deliberately infect other men with the virus, a court was told today.

Michael John Neal, 48, of suburban Coburg, faces 122 charges relating to sex with 16 men when he was knowingly infected with the HIV virus between 2000 and 2006.

He is accused of infecting two people with HIV over this period.
...
Prosecutor Mark Rochford told the court Mr Neal's reasons for infecting other men with HIV was to increase the number of men he could have unprotected sex with.
...
Mr Rochford told the court Mr Neal organised sex parties and orgies, which were called "conversion parties'', to thus facilitate the infection of people with HIV.

He said some people attending the parties were aware of this and others were not.

When interviewed by police, Mr Neal denied deliberately infecting people with HIV and said that he had a document from a doctor saying the chances of him infecting others was very low.

I guess that's one time a note from his doctor didn't help.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2007, 12:09:34 PM by philly267 »
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline FunkyMonkey

  • Member
  • Posts: 10
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2007, 12:46:31 PM »
Great question!  I'm old enough--and been poz long enough to remember the days BEFORE internet communication  :)  I remember the brave souls who decided that body ink could be a form of disclosure--biohazard tattoos etc.  I run a program that has a section about "How, When, Where" to disclose HIV status for others living with HIV.  When I think about adding "Poz" etc to an online name, while I don't think it counts as a full disclosure, I think it can be a way to start the dreaded conversation.  So, I think those that choose these names may be just as brave as the aforementioned disclosure-by-tattoo friends I had (Ok, so there's more blood involved in a tat :) )

I however don't think that JUST having a name that uses a "positive identifyer" is enough to 'count' as a disclosure--there are some really dense people out there.  Disclosure is a two-way street.  It involves the person disclosing their HIV status being open and clear, and the person receiving this information to know what it means.

Again--great conversation starter.  Just hope the conversation happens.

-Marco

Offline dtwpuck

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,013
  • дано мне тело, что мне делать с ним?
Re: Is online profile disclosure.... disclosure?
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2007, 12:19:07 AM »
Jonathon... I have strong opinions on this topic.
I go back and forth between saying I'm HIV+ online and leaving it blank.
When it's there... if I'm in a city like Atlanta or Phoenix... I get wayyyy more hits.  In a place like Cincinnati, I get far fewer.   I measured it once in Phoenix. 

Anyway.  Here's the thing.  Most gay men have the attention span of a dog in a duck farm.  See the pretty shiny thing.. it's a penis.  You can't expect to be cruising online for sex and have someone pay attention to anything but the pics you have expertly picked out to maximize your attractiveness.  I can't tell you how many times I've gotten bent out of shape because someone didn't spot HIV+ in my profile.    I gave up caring.  I just tell them.  If you're on for sex, you're on for sex. 

I personally don't particularly care if the whole world knows I'm positive.   However, I do have stategies.   If I'm online for sex, I generally leave it in.  It weeds out a lot of guys who do care, who actually do read.  If a guy who has HIV- in his profile hits me up, then I bring it up quickly.   And even if they don't care, it's fairly unlikely I will play with them.    I can usually find a poz guy to play with.  If the guy is blank, don't know, or hiv+ I bring it up fairly quickly too, although not necessarily.  Sometimes, I'd rather gauge interest first, then bring it up.     
 
If I'm online because I'm in a scintillating place like Lima Ohio (like today) and just want someone to chat with.. I leave it out.  Because, most guys will chat with me based on the pics... eventually I can usually fine someone to talk to who will have something intelligent to say.   In fact, I had dinner with a guy who is also in town here on business tonight.. not sexual.. thankfully.  I met him online... and we ended up having a really nice conversation.  I believe this to have happened like this to a large degree to the persona I projected online tonight.

If I'm looking for a relationship.... well that's a whole different ball of wax.  I suppose I would consider dating a guy who is negative.  But he'd have to walk on water.  I cannot imagine, however, letting myself go enough to fall in love with someone whom I feared I would infect.  I need physical intimacy in my life.  I need it to be with the man I love.  In times of my life where I have been looking for an LTR and attempted to use websites to pursue that goal, I have always posted HIV+.

Floating through the void in the caress of two giant pink lobsters named Esmerelda and Keith.

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2014 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.