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Author Topic: The Catholic Church  (Read 5729 times)

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Offline Val

  • Member
  • Posts: 938
  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
The Catholic Church
« on: March 16, 2007, 02:09:28 AM »
Here is something that has been discussed over and over again in several European countries with a strong Catholic tradition:  "The Infamous Catalogue by photographer José Montoya!"  In France, Italy and especially in Spain, it has caused much uproar with...the Catholics themselves!  Not with the rest of the population.
Now, it is funny how  the Catholic Church can discriminate against women and gays whenever it sees some kind of gain down the line, but does not accept  "Art"  for what it is.

The Catalogue
http://estaticos.elmundo.es/documentos/2007/03/13/documentopp.pdf

Needless to say, the Partido Popular (Bush's equivalent in Spain?) is behind all this.

Val
___
___
P.S. This is  "Art"  in its purest form.  However, there are some pictures that may shock  your sensibilities if, say, you're Catholic!
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline GSOgymrat

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  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2007, 08:32:47 AM »
I can definitely see why Catholics would find that offensive.

Offline mjmel

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,069
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2007, 09:06:27 AM »
I can definitely see why all Christians are going to be offended. Me included. Disgusting.
Presses "ignore" button.

Offline Peter6836

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  • Me and my Granddaughter Noa
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 09:33:48 AM »
I have a degree in Fine Arts and have been interested in art for over forty years. I just do not see the asthetic or social value of this work. It is quite offensive.

Offline NycJoe

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  • Posts: 241
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2007, 12:00:38 PM »
I'm not catholic and find that stuff disgusting.  People like to use shock value to garner attention and call it art to defend it. 

Offline Val

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  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2007, 12:06:46 PM »
Guys,
We are talking about one of the most famous artists in the Extremadura region in Spain!  Art, like speech, cannot be censored.

Val
___
___
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Teresa

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,753
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2007, 12:10:58 PM »
I wouldn't call that art. But that's just my opinion.

Hugs
Teresa
Hubby HIV+ 5/5/06
CD4:320
  %: 26.7
 VL: <20
Atripla (started it 8/24/06)
 

Offline Basquo

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  • Posts: 3,254
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2007, 12:37:08 PM »
I'm not offended, but I wish there was some kind of "don't open at work" warning!

While I would say that it is art, I wouldn't call it "pure." And since some might consider it pornographic, don't be surprised if the moderators ask you to remove the link.

Offline woodshere

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,477
  • ain't no shame in my game
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2007, 12:54:03 PM »
Guys,
We are talking about one of the most famous artists in the Extremadura region in Spain!  Art, like speech, cannot be censored.

I agree, are cannot be censored, but doesn't mean a person can't find it offensive.  It doesn't bother me one way or the other as far as being offensive, I just don't like it.

As far as fame is concerned, John Wayne Gacy and his art are famous also.

Woods
"Let us give pubicity to HV/AIDS and not hide it..." "One of the things destroying people with AIDS is the stigma we attach to it."   Nelson Mandela

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,310
  • His name is Carl.
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2007, 01:11:49 PM »
So did this guy state what his grand artistic purpose was with all this?  Other than to offend Catholic people?  It's not suprising that it caused an uproar with the Catholics...it's the photographic equivalent of flame-baiting.  I fail to see what its point would be beyond that. 

Not that the Catholics don't have a supremely rich history of doing just that in the opposite direction, mind you.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline curmudgeonly

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  • Posts: 50
  • Pet the pussy
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2007, 01:23:47 PM »
And they thought Piss Christ was bad!



[attachment deleted by admin]
Life is full of pain, I'm cruisin' through my brain
And I fill my nose with snow and go Rimbaud,
Go Rimbaud, go Rimbaud,
And go Johnny go, and do the watusi, oh do the watusi

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,310
  • His name is Carl.
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2007, 01:37:57 PM »
Still, I think it bears remembering that "art" is more than just what is on the canvas or a finished sculpture.  It's really only "complete"  when it has been received and a reaction has been formed to it.  Showing things in either extreme is a good way to gauge where we stand as a whole...what our sacred cows are, our hot buttons, etc.  A bit like getting a tap on the knee to check our reflexes.  It shouldn't really be assumed that someone who creates a work like Piss Christ is automatically anti-christian.


EDITIED TO SAY:  I would still rather have a world where works like this are allowed a place in society than one where the church dictated art.  It makes me think of my visit to the Louvre.  Hall after hall of Virgin and Child, Virgin and Child, Virgin and Child, Virgin and Child...it was seemingly endless.  No matter how masterful the techniques involved, after awhile it all became remarkably soulless.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 02:10:53 PM by thunter34 »
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline aupointillimite

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  • FUS DO RAH!
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2007, 02:07:05 PM »
Câlice de Crisse!

My family's Catholic and would no doubt be extremely offended.  Blah blah blah.

Personally, I find the subversion of religion using sex in art to be as cutting-edge as a dull butter knife... it's so early 20th century.   

But getting under any organization's skin is always amusing.

The photography is extremely well done though.

This isn't pornography, by the by.  There is an intellectualism behind it... but one that hasn't been noteworthy for a hundred years.   

As mes amis Quebecois would say, "Je m'en crisse." 

Benj
(Who has read Georges Bataille and "Amorous Exploits of a Young Rakehell" and knows that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to this sort of thing.)
Your tastebuds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!

Offline Val

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  • Posts: 938
  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2007, 03:12:40 PM »
Tim,
I know exactly what you mean when you mentioned The Louvre and all the "Madonna and Child"! 

Basquo,
What I meant by "pure" is the way the artist put it all together.  It is actually a collage.  I'll check on that and will tell you more if interested.

Benj,
Ah you told me once..."Je suis jeune" and bla, bla, bla  but I can see that you are a brilliant kinda dude!  And I won't say this again for quite a long time, all right!  Don't get used to it, hun! 
Nevertheless, If at your age you are  already familiar with the oeuvres of Bataille and such, wow, seriously little Benjamin, you are unique!  I understood perfectly what you implied here...

However, for the folks who put me on ignore and were offended by these images, I'm sorry.  Art is what it is and should never, in my opinion, be censored.  It is just like speech.  For me, The First amendment is valid also for Art.

And to give you guys an idea of the power of the church today in Europe, look what happened to this famous artist website:

Jose Antonio Montoya
http://www.jam-montoya.es/

This is what I'd call offensive.  Offensive, for me, is having the Pope --- who is a homosexual --- condemn my kinda love implying that I'm "immoral"!
Offensive is having the head of any church -- especially The Protestants ---  say one thing in Europe and/or America and, because of that, have young homosexuals killed on the other side of the world...because the Pope said so.  Because Jimmy Swaggart/Ted Haggard said so. 

No offense anyone, but the debate in Europe right now regarding this quite heated up.  Behind all this we have The Partido Popular...

Val
___
___








Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Teresa

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  • Posts: 1,753
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2007, 03:42:26 PM »
Val,

I don't believe in censorship either. I just have an opinion of what i consider art. You didn't offend me.

Hugs
Teresa
Hubby HIV+ 5/5/06
CD4:320
  %: 26.7
 VL: <20
Atripla (started it 8/24/06)
 

Offline allopathicholistic

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,258
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2007, 03:46:31 PM »
Val,

I don't believe in censorship either. I just have an opinion of what i consider art. You didn't offend me.

Hugs
Teresa

ditto!

u
g
l
y

that stuff has no alibi

it's ugly  :D

Offline Miss Philicia

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  • celebrity poster, faker & poser
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2007, 04:11:56 PM »
Nothing ever seems to outrage me.
"I’ve slept with enough men to know that I’m not gay"

Offline Val

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  • Posts: 938
  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2007, 05:53:55 PM »
Teresa and Tim,
The photographer not only had to say what it all meant to him and why he did what he did, but he was also forced to excuse himself for his work --- which he did not.  He said that his main concern on doing that was to bring to light ..."the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church"...  when discriminating against women for thousand of years;  and, lately, against homosexuals in general and throughout Europe. 

He exposed pedophile  priests to the public, for example,  with several of his photo montages.   And the church doesn't like that, of course!  The church would rather throw some gay subject in there and make all these veiled allegations such as homosexuality = pedophiles and so on!  It is very convenient and it has worked in the past.  So, why not give it another try.

In fact, as we speak gays and lesbians are protesting in Rome and several Italian cities, and many have been arrested.  The cause?  There was a project that should be voted today (if I am not mistaken) in the Senate,  which would give Italian homosexuals more or less the same rights and liberties that other European countries have given their gay citizens a long time ago.  But the Pope came out speaking vehemently about and against the "gay love" and "same sex unions, marriages and the like"!

Val
___
___

Now, I agree that it was very bold of him to expose his works in a  catholic church, which he did!  But, since the priest and bishop were for it...!
Voltaire said:
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it".

I say:
"I may disagree with what you paint/photograph, but I shall defend to the death your right to show it".

Edited to add Voltaire's famous saying about the right to  free speech, which I will apply to Art as well!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 06:29:04 PM by Val »
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline thunter34

  • Member
  • Posts: 7,310
  • His name is Carl.
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2007, 06:36:52 PM »
Nothing ever seems to outrage me.

Didn't outrage me, either...but I could see how the Catholics would get up in arms about it.

I checked out the website and have to say there was a great deal more on the site that I liked. 

Val, there's a few things you mentioned that I wanted to hear more about.  One, I looked at the site but didn't see what had "happened to it".  Maybe this is because I need to brush up my spanish skills?  Also, I admit that I don't stay that tuned in to Pope-type things.  You said the Pope was gay-  this is known somehow?  And you said that the photographer was forced to explain his work and excuse himself for it.  Can you elaborate on that?  Forced how and when?

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline bt1313

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  • Posts: 32
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 07:10:48 PM »
I was raised what they call a convienent catholic...with 13 siblings we went when we could. And as a catholic i think the art is beautiful....except for the female models. Bring on the MEN!!!!1

Offline Val

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  • Posts: 938
  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2007, 12:41:41 PM »
Tim,
José Montoya  was forced to excuse himself a long time ago 'cause the exhibition (five years ago) of his work in a, get this, catholic church caused such a hullabaloo.  However, he refused to defend himself and just replied that he was an artist  -- not a politician.
And this is really what we're talking about here.   Politics!  The Partido Popular(right wing, very conservative and allied with the Catholic Church) brought this all up again recently,  accusing the  Extremadura Region(the governor)  of paying for this artist's work.  Now, there is going to be some kind of election in Spain very soon, I suppose, and they are not wasting any time...
And just to give you a position of things in Spain right now, I have been trying to access J. Montoya's site for more than a week and couldn't.  Apparently, the Partido Popular was/is doing all it can to block his site.  Yesterday  I, like yourself, was able to access it and view his works.  The pressure is enormous on all the officials of the Extremadura Region as well, as you can imagine...

Now, regarding the Pope all I can say is that I go to Italy very often.  I am familiar with the GLBT movements in there and know for sure the following:

Italian gays are very suspicious of this Pope.  Even before being elected  Supreme Pontiff, he was voicing vehemently all kinds of accusations against homosexuals whenever there was a particular  occasion e.g. international meetings, conferences and so on. 
The impassioned vehemence and  impetuosity with which he would blurt out all these innuendos made gays aware of one thing:  "He could be a homosexual himself, but a closeted one"!  And examples of "closeted homosexuals" who slash out on their on kind is what the Italians have known for a long time with the church.
Paul VI, for example, was widely known as a "closeted homosexual" even though he was not nearly as grouchy as Benedict.

Italian guys in general refer to the actual Pope   as  "La Ratzinger" and think he is quite effeminate.  True?  Just look at him...

I could tell you so many stories that I have experienced when living in Rome, but it would take a long time.  Just for your information, thanks to my father's relations at the time, I had access to The Vatican City while in Rome.  This is not an easy thing to accomplish, believe me.  I had a special card so that I could buy all my food at The Vatican Supermarket, gas, and so on. 
Once a week,  I would go for the afternoon tea with the Brazilian and/or French Bishop in their residence; and, my time in Rome would be divided in between The Brazilian, French and American College.   Each nation has a college for young seminarists in Rome.  So, I am very familiar with all things related to The Vatican and the Catholic Church. 
When I think about it today, I regret a lot of things that I could have taken advantage of, 'cause of my stupidity and rebellion against my father was so important to me at the time...

Hope this explains a little bit of everything.   Again, I haven't read all the articles about José Montoya's work and what's going on in  Spain right now.  However, if you're interested in The Vatican, the Pope and everything about the colleges in there...I can help! :))

Val
___
___
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Val

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  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2007, 01:28:55 PM »
Tim,
I had a little time to kill so I did some research and reading (in Spanish).  Unfortunately, there is nothing in English regarding this case, but tons of articles in Spanish.  By the way, the photographer apparently has dual citizenship and  was born in Peru  --- not in the Extremadura Region  --- where he still lives today.  He says that The Extremadura Region is where his heart belongs, though.
He is very much worried, for not only was his web site blocked and other stuff one can only imagine, but he was also threathened over the phone and fears for his life.  "Amenaza de muerte" in Spanish.
The Bishop of the church where the first exhibition took place --- there were several ---  argued he was not aware of the content of the exposition, but was ousted all the same.
The site of the major gallery, in Valencia, where one of the major exhibitions took place does not mention anything whatsoever about the artist...

Some articles
http://www2.elmundolibro.com/elmundo/2007/03/14/espana/1173880048.html
http://www.elconfidencial.com/noticias/noticia.asp?id=22312&edicion=15/03/2007
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline GSOgymrat

  • Member
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  • HIV+ since 1993. INTJ
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2007, 03:05:48 PM »
I don't hear anyone on here talking censorship. This artist obviously means more to you than to me because you have a context to put it in. I'm not a Christian and I don't know about European politics so for me it's just grainy photo of people in religious outfits having sex. My reaction was just "this is either a fetish or someone is just trying to be shocking." As other people on here have pointed out obscenity just to get attention is passe. I just don't find the photos very interesting or even original.

Offline thunter34

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  • Posts: 7,310
  • His name is Carl.
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2007, 04:45:35 PM »
Val,

Thanks for the further detail.  I will look into the other links in a bit.  To be honest, I don't delve too far into things Vatican because it creeps my out.

All that stuff about this being dredged up with an election coming up?  Not the least bit suprising.

Same song all over the world, it seems.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Val

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  • Praxitèles -- Satyre au repos
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2007, 04:48:45 PM »
There's much more to it than it is apparent on here!  I have read  most of the replies and, to a certain extent, get the (false) idea that some guys want to purport.   And I really don't expect  anyone to comprehend Spanish history either.  I am not even sure I understand it as well!
Having  said that, I would like to remind everyone of something very dear to all of us:  "Freedom, liberty, free-speech, basic rights, and so on".  What one has to keep in mind here is that Spain is just (perhaps) getting over a long period of dictatorship.  This is the land of the Inquisition ---  even though this Inquisition was spread out to the other nations of the continent as well.
The Catholic Church  is just a stronghold in Spain as it is the Protestant Church in The U.S.A.  By the way, Spain could be considered the equivalent of the U.S. in Europe.  The United States, for example,  is the most religious contry among all the industrialized nations.  Our U.S.A. is Spain!

Now, regarding the artist himself all I have to say is that he is not just any  young man trying to reach fame with "shocking"  images.  Quite the opposite!  José Antonio Montoya is a 53-year-old artist who has been working with this kind of stuff for a long time.  It is my opinion that he really does not need this type of publicity, if you will. Besides, and like some of you mentioned, this type of thing (criticism of religion) has been done several times before...  

This time, though, there are politics involved.  And not just any kind of politics!  These are the guys who allied with Bush and Co.  These are the guys who would never pass any bill for gay rights (or any other minority) in Spain --- like the ones Spanish gays  have today.  It was Zapatero who did it.

Perhaps I am not making sense after all the details I have given you, but I want you to know that the leader of The Partido Popular, Aznar, was a very close friend of Bush.  He was the one who sent Spanish troops to Irak.  As soon as the Socialists came to power with Zapatero, the very first thing they did was to bring back home all the Spanish troops.  

Val
___
___
P.S. Perhaps Blond will chime in to give his opinion...even though he has  a totally different political view as opposed to mine.  However, it is his country and I am sure he could tell us a lot about this.

P.P.S. It would be interesting to hear what gay America has to say about Kittredge Cherry Church and her llast book that, from what I read, caused such an  ear-splitting brouhaha in the Evangelical Communities across the country.



We are the Church alive, the Church with AIDS
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=926

Jesus in Love
http://www.jesusinlove.org/about.php



Edited to add the P.P.S.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2007, 05:42:53 AM by Val »
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline koi1

  • Member
  • Posts: 713
Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2007, 05:48:29 PM »
I think that what many here can agree on is the hypocrisy of organized religion and what damage it does and has always done to the world. If some catholics and any other fundamentalist branches of many religions are allowed  to hold the the monopoly on truth and purity, the world will delve deeper into more human suffering and more mind control. The rat in the Vatican is the biggest hypocrite of all (after G.W.B. ). I think someone hit the nail on the head that art has to be looked at in context, and art does have a message, unless it is decorative Jackie Stallone furniture of course.  :D Now, I would not want some of the more bolder pieces of this artist in my livingroom, but it does cause discussion does it not? Now as long as art is not promoting further human suffering, I don't think any art should ever be censored, especially without knowing what the artist had in mind. You will always cause outrage in he people that still believe in th myths of the bible, which have been used to justify so many true evils in the world, whenever you question them, through any media.

Rob
diagnosed on 11/20/06 viral load 23,000  cd4 97    8%
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Began sustiva truvada 01/04/07
newest labs  drawn on 01/15/07  vl 1,100    cd4 119    7%
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Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2007, 07:23:33 PM »
Rob,
In fact, when I started this thread I had something else in mind: "The threat that religion in general poses to homosexuals' rights".  But then, for some reasons, I changed it to   "The Catholic Church". 
Actually, the Catholic Church is perhaps  one of the less virulent denominations against gays  in Europe.  There are much worse, believe me!  However, in this specific example, there was really something  much more relevant to us:  "Politics".  And this is the perfect cocktail, in Europe, to rule over the minds of the masses.  It has always been the case from the beginning.  A good example is the kings of France who had to be crowned at the Rheims Cathedral (Champagne Region), so that their reigning years (dynasty) were automatically deemed of divine right.
The Catholic Church, in Europe, has always reigned hand in hand with the princes of these dynasties/royalties.  However, from 1905 on  when France was declared a "Etat Laïc" (the separation of power between State and Church),  the church  has lost a lot of ground and their places of worship  have emptied.

And apparently gay bashing  is  a good cause for  these churches to have people pay attention to them once again!  One example, the Pope alarmed Italians to such an extent that the now famous/infamous  D.I.C.O.  (the equivalent of the French PaCS - Civil Union)  is not assured of being approved.  Italy, along with Greece and two other countries, is still behind much of the continent. 
In Poland, the situation is so dramatic that The Council of Europe had to intervene and force the  conservative/bigot government to change!

I do agree with what you said, and if there is a message that I would send to all homosexuals around the world, it would be:  "Do not ever take for granted the basic rights that you enjoy". 

Val
___
___
P.S. As I write to you it just dawned on me that just last week a very famous rabbi from Lyon, Richard Wertenschlag, declared that..."Homosexuals have genetic/medical problems  and/or pulsions they cannot control.  Therefore, we have got to set some limits, parapets or else our society becomes a decadent one full of pedophiles and zoophiles acts".  He added that ..."the PaCS (civil union pact) is already a more than acceptable concession and things should stay that way".  The allusion being made here to his position against adoption by same-sex couples.
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline thunter34

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2007, 07:32:24 PM »
That last part reminds me of here in Georgia where the hard right pushed for a State Constitutional Amendment to officially declare marriage as for only man and woman (even though same sex marriage was already not allowed in the state).  They went on and on declaring how they only wanted it for clarification purposes & nothing further.  One year later, the same bunch is using that passed legislation as the back bone of the push against adoptions.

*Hope this post was clear enough.  Got interrupted while typing it and kinda Amtraked on my train of thought.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline fearless

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2007, 10:50:40 PM »
I guess you need to view his work in context - a little difficult over a computer screen at times.

It is easy to see why Catholics, and many non-Catholics, would be offended by his work. A lot of people find mere nudity too confronting. Remember, Jeff Koons and his Cicciolina "made in heaven" series, and the outrage they caused. I thought the baroque style sculptures in this series were kooky and cool. (as an aside, Puppy, was very cute and was 'sabotaged' during the installation in Sydney by the insertion of a couple of marijuana seedlings. hehehe)

As one of the most secular countries on earth, I don't believe the church or churches hold much sway in Australia. We either just ignore or laugh at Pell, the catholic archbishop, and I have no idea who the other church leaders are. they're an irrelevant lot, generally.

On the flip side, we are still a fairly censorious (is that a word?) country with films and exhibitions banned from time to time.
Marriage is legislated as a union between and a woman only. You don't have to be religious to be against gay marriage
Be forgiving, be grateful, be optimistic

Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2007, 04:07:49 PM »
Steven,
I am sure you appreciate Australia being the country it is, and are aware of how lucky you are to not have the church mingle in state affairs!  And you are right, you don't have to be catholic/protestant to be against gay marriage.  I for one thing am not interested in  it at all, but would like it to be a right (and will defend that right) for those who aim for it.

Val
___
___
P.S. If I should ever be a member of any church again, this would be it.

Svenka Kyrkan
http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/sprakversioner_en.asp
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline thunter34

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2007, 04:13:51 PM »
With apologies to Val if I am (semi) veering from the original topic with this, but...

I have always been a bit baffled by the whole anti-gay marriage thingy. It seems contrary to their general complaints about gays in the first place to me.  I mean, they go on and on about gays being promiscuous and underground, anti-family and all that mess, but the first whisper of legitimizing relationships brings about cries for constitutional amendments and stuff.

I guess it just boils down to them not wanting to validate us either way. 
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2007, 05:44:47 AM »
Dear Tim,
You don't have to apologize for anything.  This topic will go in whatever direction people want it to!  And, yes, I agree with you completely in that it seems that some folks(not all, thank goodness)  just can't stand the thought of having to live side by side with someone who is different from them.

You know, this morning I was reading some papers from around the globe and came across a very interesting article.  It discussed the position of a personality I have always admired,   the head of The Anglican Church in South Africa, Son excellence Archbishop Desmond Tutu, about several issues --- including gays' rights.  And I was elated by his posture on several delicate, critical dilemmas our modern societies are grappling with!

Needless to say, he has been accused even of anti-semitism because of his intrepid and valiant stances.  It must be the high price to pay for being honest and faithful to your own beliefs, I'd say!

Val
___
___
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Matty the Damned

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2007, 03:43:14 PM »
I have always been a bit baffled by the whole anti-gay marriage thingy. It seems contrary to their general complaints about gays in the first place to me.  I mean, they go on and on about gays being promiscuous and underground, anti-family and all that mess, but the first whisper of legitimizing relationships brings about cries for constitutional amendments and stuff.

I guess it just boils down to them not wanting to validate us either way. 


Matty the Damned is strongly opposed to gay marriage.

MtD

Offline thunter34

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2007, 03:58:49 PM »
I have always been a bit baffled by the whole anti-gay marriage thingy. It seems contrary to their general complaints about gays in the first place to me.  I mean, they go on and on about gays being promiscuous and underground, anti-family and all that mess, but the first whisper of legitimizing relationships brings about cries for constitutional amendments and stuff.

I guess it just boils down to them not wanting to validate us either way. 


Matty the Damned is strongly opposed to gay marriage.

MtD

Tim the....Tim the....ah, heck-  Tim would like to know your reasons for that opposition.  Do you mean for yourself or for all gay people.  If so, why?  And by "marriage", do you also mean legal unions of any kind- or just marriage as a religious doo-hickey?

He believes he will start a new thread to discuss this.

Tim...of the Golden Eggs?  ...No?     Phooey.
AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Bucko

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2007, 04:37:29 PM »
Tim the....Tim the....ah, heck-  Tim would like to know your reasons for that opposition.  Do you mean for yourself or for all gay people.  If so, why?  And by "marriage", do you also mean legal unions of any kind- or just marriage as a religious doo-hickey?

He believes he will start a new thread to discuss this.

Tim...of the Golden Eggs?  ...No?     Phooey.


I guess we'll settle for Tim the Perplexed for the moment  ;D

This pix aren't grainy on my screen. The uncut penises are very sweet, but there's a coldness to what I saw that isn't porn, not at all.

I have to agree that the iconography is nothing new, certainly no more radical than Sade was two hundred years ago.

Brent
(Who is re-reading 120 Days of Sodom yet again)
Blessed with brains, talent and gorgeous tits.

The revolutionary smart set reads The Spin Cycle at least once every day.

Blathering on AIDSmeds since 2005, provocative from birth

Offline thunter34

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2007, 04:51:30 PM »
Yes, I agree with Bucko about the coldness.  That's what hit me right off about them.  Cold and rather sinister (to me).

AIDS isn't for sissies.

Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2007, 05:25:59 PM »
Well guys, this is the response to all this gay bashing that The Catholic Church has been encouraging with the Pope's speech and counteractive positions.

The World History of Male Love
http://www.androphile.org/

Val
___
___
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline aztecan

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2007, 01:17:40 AM »
Well, the photos weren't grainy on my screen either. I think the artist succeeded in creating art - because what is art if not something that stirs the emotion or causes people to react or think?

I don't think I would want it in my living room, but it wasn't created for that purpose.

No art should be hidden, no literature banned, no speech censored, regardless of whether I or anyone is offended by it.

That is the true meaning of freedom and any departure from that truth diminishes the rights we all have.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2007, 04:41:02 PM »
Well, the photos weren't grainy on my screen either. I think the artist succeeded in creating art - because what is art if not something that stirs the emotion or causes people to react or think?

Mark


I couldn't have said it better!  That's exactly what the artist attempted to do, in the first place.

Val
___
___

Yerka, Jacek   ---   Erozja



Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2007, 06:02:23 PM »
Mark,
I wonder what the Pope & Co. would think about this kind of Art.

From The Sistine Chapel to the Hospital




From The Sistine Chapel to The Living Room




Val
___
___


Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline Lisa

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2007, 07:12:37 PM »
 Val,
Your original offering I did not open(the link), but the latter two offerings I appreciate.
As we look at the pictures/paintings of history, that we reflect upon, why should this period of history be ignored.
I know not whether the art depicted in your first post is or is not offensive.
I do know that the Catholic church has no right to dictate whether a depiction is offensive or not.
Please reference the Popes, and anti-Popes of past eras, and ask intelligently if the church has any moral right.
I submit that it has not.
Therefore, no depiction should be offensive.
No Fear  No Shame  No Stigma
Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have.

Offline Val

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2007, 10:23:14 AM »
Lisa,
I understand perfectly well your point of view and, needless to say, share the same attitude.  Nonetheless, there is something going on right now, you know.  There is what I would call a  "wakening to truth" all over the world as I write this.  In fact, I was reading some Italian magazine this week, and realized how furious the GL Communities are in that country.
First, the Pope did succeed in stopping the D.I.C.O. (Civil Union) with his anti-gay speech urging politics not to give in to the masses.   Italy is one of the last Euroepan countries to adopt such measure.

Second, I am always reading the Brazilian news in general, and pay special attention to what's new in the vast Brazilian artistic world.  I actually have given up reading articles about homosexuals' rights in that country --- the most Catholic in the world.
However, this week I was astonished to learn that one of my favourite artists was considering leaving Brazil because her works were being censored very often...  By the  National Catholic Bishops of Brazil Association!

Marcia X is a plastic/graphic artist and has always been considered  a rebel.  She never gives in to corrupted politicians, the churches of Brazil -- Catholic and Protestant -- and mafias of all sorts.  She has been threatened several times. 
This time, though, it is a huge, very famous institution that is cancelling one of her expositions!  Check it out.

Marcia X   ---   Desenhando com Terços (Drawing with Rosaries)
http://fotosite.terra.com.br/novo_futuro/barme.php?http://fotosite.terra.com.br/novo_futuro/ler_noticia.php?id=4435

Her website
http://marciax.uol.com.br/


Val
___
___
« Last Edit: March 29, 2007, 10:26:20 AM by Val »
Arthus Bertrand
http://www.yannarthusbertrand.com/yann2/affichage.php?reference=TVDC%20YABFR084&pais=France
Ali Mahdavi
http://asyoudesireme.online.fr/index.htm
Richard de Chazal
http://www.richarddechazal.com/
Daniel Nassoy
http://www.danielnassoy.com/pages/galeries_portraits_2.html
Photography:
The word comes from the Greek words φως phos ("light"), and γραφίς graphis ("stylus", "paintbrush") or γραφή graphê, together meaning "drawing with light" or "representation by means of lines".

Offline aztecan

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Re: The Catholic Church
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2007, 01:41:06 PM »
Hey Val,

I'm sure Ratzinger and Co. would find the depictions offensive. I rather liked them.

As for censorship in Brazil, that is very sad. I have read about when the church held sway here, or enough sway, to get movies banned or rewritten to remove "objectionable" scenes or language.

Luckily, much of that has gone by the wayside. Now it is the fundies I worry about.

But, that is a rant for another day.

HUGS,

Mark
"May your life preach more loudly than your lips."
~ William Ellery Channing (Unitarian Minister)

 


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