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Author Topic: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.  (Read 8003 times)

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Offline tr1980

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Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« on: March 14, 2007, 09:08:55 AM »
Dear Andy / Knowledgeable People,

I recently had unprotected receptive digital (fingering) + oral sex with a partner who's HIV status is unknown. However, several variables presented which has caused for concern. 1) during fingering, he was masturbating his penis and when he reached for lube changed hands to finger me with the hand he was masturbating himself with. 2) he's a fairly heavy leaker (precum). After I came, he asked me to suck him. 3) I had a laceration inside my cheek which was not fresh ie. I bit the inside of my cheek over a week ago. But was still somewhat sore and I suspect may have still been an open wound. 4) over 6 months ago he took PEP after unprotected receptive anal sex with a HIV+ partner (who did not ejaculate and presented with zero VL) - at 6 months post PEP he tested HIV-. How at risk of HIV am I? It was meant to be a "no risk" encounter of mutual masturbation but has become terribly gray and alarming for me.

Really concerned,
Trent.


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2007, 09:18:30 AM »
Trent, fingering even with the details you offered is not a risk for transmission. HIV is a fragile virus which needs a very receptive setting in which to be transmitted through bodily fluids. Fingering even with his cum laying about doesn't provide that.

As for the healing bite in your mouth that would not have been an open sore and even if it had been the likelihood of transmission remains very slight even IF the fellow you were with is HIV+.

Evidence of HIV transmission orally is strictly anecdotal and very scarce whereas by contrast there is much more evidence through longterm studies of sero-discordant couples that giving oral is not a risk. Amongst both gay & straight couples who gave lots of oral and had only protected intercourse not one sero-negative partner became infected.

Read our lesson on Transmission which you will find a link to in the Welcome thread which opens this section. I don't see any need for testing in this case nor for further concern on your part.

Cheers, 
Andy Velez

411

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 03:00:02 AM »
Trent
I appreciated your question and can understand your anxiety given the general vagueness being offered by conservative organizations regarding oral sex. The fingering incident didn't place you at any risk for reasons offered by Andy and receptive oral sex is considered extremely low risk by pretty much everyone except the most conservative of organizations.

There have been more than a few studies attempting to quantify the risk of receptive oral sex but these studies are limited to best guesses simply because infection simply hasn't occurred in these controlled studies. While there is anecdotal evidence that infection has occurred, upon closer examination many of these claims remain questionable because of conflicting or changed source information.

My opinion is that the controlled studies seem to offer the best source of information and while there remains a bit of uncertainty about receptive oral sex it does appear to be of such low risk that there really isn't an assignable value. Its probably not perfectly safe but its pretty close to abstinence in terms of real risk. When you weight the frequency of the act against the risk it is statistically zero as a source of infection.

Regarding your friend on PEP, he has conclusively tested negative and was reliably HIV negative at the time he tested. I'm with Andy is suggesting a test isn't necessary in this case.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 03:02:50 AM by 411 »

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2007, 03:51:17 AM »
Thank you both for replying!! You really have helped to put my mind at ease. :)

Best regards,
Trent.

Offline tr1980

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Dear Andy (and others knowledgeable),

Hours ago I engaged in unprotected receptive oral sex (not vigorous or lengthy), but realised shortly after in the corner of my mouth on my bottom lip, the tingle of a cold sore about to erupt (it has not yet, no puss and skin does not appear broken .. only a small spot with a slight swelling).

There was some precum present (not a lot, but this did get in my mouth). I jerked him off and he came on my stomach (no cum on my gentials or any broken skin). Shortly after, he told me he was HIV+.

My dental hygiene is good as was his (white teeth, no bad breathe or receding gums). We kissed a bit, and he sucked me for a bit (not too concerned about this). He also rimmed me for a short while.

I am worried, that although I sucked him and his penis was in my mouth. It is possible some of this precum may have come in contact with my lips.

I asked more about his HIV status, and he says he has been positive for 17 years. He is taking a cocktail of drugs and his VL consistently tests undetectable. He says he also has a high T cell count (not that we can rely on this information).

Should I be seeking PEP now before it is too late?

Worried,
Trent.

Offline RapidRod

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Please keep all your questions and concerns in your orginal thread.

Offline tr1980

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Hi RapidRod,

This is my only thread, isn't it?

Trent.


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2007, 06:58:15 PM »
OK, I have merged your threads. Please use only this thread for all entries.

No, this is not an incident over which PEP is something you need to be considering. If you're going to get into a state every time you give oral you may have to either re-think doing it without a condom OR accept this is a level of risk you are prepared to live with.

Your saliva contains elements which are very effective at preventing HIV from remaining viable. Plus the guy you were with mentioned that he's undetectable which further reduces the possibility of transmission. As you have been told for the incident before this, there is much more evidence that HIV is not transferred orally than the other way around. The few cases of transmission which have been attributed to giving oral have never been well documented and raised the likelihood other risk elements were involved.

So I don't see the need for any testing related to this iincident. Certainly if you had a freshly opened wound say from a tooth removal  I would say don't give unprotected oral until it heals. But in a general way where there is good oral care I would say not to worry. If giving oral was a serious risk we would have known long before this. It's one of the most common sexual acts.

Cheers,   
Andy Velez

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 07:07:14 PM »
Hi Andy,

Thanks for replying. My concern is not so much the internal mouth contact but external, knowing precum was present and a cold sore about the erupt.

Transmission is said to be much greater when other STIs are present (OK HSV-1 may not be an STI like HSV-2, but it presents just the same except not on the genitals).

Are cold sores subject to allow HIV transmission when tingly / about to erupt or as good as intact skin?

Worried,
Trent.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 07:21:04 PM »
You were never at risk.

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 07:27:56 PM »
I have just taken a read on herpes-coldsores.com;

http://www.herpes-coldsores.com/cold_sores.htm#How_is_the_virus_spread

"It should also be made aware that the virus is considered to be contagious from the very first sign of an outbreak (including the tingling, itching stage) until the area is completely healed again."

This is very alarming. If it is considered contagious during the prodrome period is it not also a viable route for HIV transmission?!?! If I had noticed it before hand, I would not have put his dick in my mouth.

Trent :(

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2007, 07:45:36 PM »
It's referring to the cold sore virus. NOT to the HIV virus.

Your head is working overtime on this one to no good purpose. Really.
Andy Velez

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2007, 07:53:39 PM »
OK. So you reckon I can forget about it, leave this Internet cafe and get on with the rest of my holiday weekend away?

You really don't feel the presence of a cold sore coming on has put me at any greater risk or risk at all?

Trent (starting to feel relieved).

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2007, 09:15:10 PM »
tr,

Speaking as someone who has herpes, the stage of development you're speaking of does not set my alarm bells ringing. To be honest, I'd be more worried about the fact that you probably gave HIM herpes. Hiv is not an easy virus to transmit - and your friend has an undetectable viral load to boot.

Go enjoy your holiday weekend and stock up on condoms. Use them correctly and consistently and you will avoid hiv infection.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tr1980

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Unprotected receptive oral sex (urethra compromised) with HIV+ partner.
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2008, 05:00:30 AM »
Hi,

I had unprotected receptive oral sex with a (later confessed) HIV+ partner.

I am not so concerned over this, however I had engaged in urethral play a couple hours earlier and had compromised the lining (small amount of blood visible). This was from deeper in my penis, not the lining near the glans (I am circumcised).

This took place outdoors and I noticed he had a graze and some blood visible on his knee. I pointed it out to him and (vaguely recall) he may have used his hand to wipe this.

Prior to performing oral sex on me, he used both hands to rub sunscreen into my back and atleast an hour had passed before he touched my penis with his hand. He used his saliva and hand to masturbate my penis before I ejaculated in his mouth.

I am really worried trace blood from his knee may still have been present on his hand and then mixed with his saliva when masturbating my penis and that this may have entered my urethra (he did not directly touch / rub the opening of my urethra).

Nonetheless, with his confession of being HIV+ it has me freaked.

Scared,
Trent.

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2008, 05:14:31 AM »
Trent,

Getting a blow job is NOT a risk for hiv infection, regardless of engaging in urethral play beforehand.

Even if some of the blood from his knee ended up on your penis, this is not a risk for hiv infection. Hiv is a fragile virus that quickly becomes damaged and unable to infect when outside the human body. Small changes in temperature, moisture content and/or pH levels compromise the outer covering of the virus. This outer covering MUST be intact in order for the virus to latch on to a very few, specific types of cells and infect.

You did not have a risk in anything you bring to us.

Make sure you and your sexual partners are using condoms for anal (or vaginal) intercourse, every time, no exceptions, and you will avoid hiv infection. It really is that simple.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2008, 09:04:47 AM »
Hi Ann,

Thanks for your reply. It has helped put my mind at ease.

But the concern is that microtears in the urethral lining at the tip of my penis may have been present. This and non-visible / unobvious amount of blood transferred from the graze on his knee to the hand used to masturbate my penis with.

You really feel there is no risk there? Andy, your thoughts?

Considering PEP,
Trent.


Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2008, 10:08:27 AM »
Man, you are really stretching with this one. Mutual masturbation is not a risk for transmission. Of course you're thinking "but this is different," and it's not. You're mind seems to be putting together a lot of what ifs and coming up with a non-existent potential risk.

Anytime you have sex with another person there maybe theoretical risk. But in the real world of HIV we know that it doesn't ever happen in the manner you have pasted together several bits. And considering how common your activity is we would have known long before today if it was risky.

PEP? Absolutely not. You are way overreacting about this incident. You don't need to test. I can't help thinking that with your comments in general this is more of an issue about anxiety over sexual acitivity in general than anything to do with a real HIV risk.

Andy Velez

Offline tr1980

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Oral sex and bleeding inner-cheek.
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 07:15:07 AM »
Hi Andy / Ann / Others,

This happened quite some weeks ago now (NYE '08). But anxiety is building as I sit here with flu like symptoms typing this...

NYE '08 I allowed myself to taken along to a sex on premises venue. I wasn't really interested in participating, so just relaxed and enjoyed the sauna for sometime. While I was there, I chewed gum and accidentally bit my inner-cheek. Badly ie. I could taste blood.

A couple of hours (1, 2 maybe 3?) had past and the 1st Jan 09 arrived. I met someone and I performed receptive oral sex on him. It was brief (5 mins? 10 mins?), and there was minimal precum present. I still had the gum and there was lots of saliva.

When I remembered the bite to my inner-cheek and the fact that the bite was deep enough to cause bleeding I realised I shouldn't be performing oral sex and ceased.

But now, 8-10 weeks I fear the worse with my flu like symptoms. I know symptoms are never an indication of anything. It could very well just be a cold. I felt the risk was minimal, given I ceased before any real level of arousal and no ejaculate present. But know I'm doubting myself.

Your opinions?

Worried,
Trent.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 08:00:44 AM »
Once again you are worrying needlessly. Your saliva has over a dozen elements which are very effective in preventing the transmission of viable HIV. That injury in your mouth would have already closed protectively by the time you gave the guy some brief oral, even if it was still uncomfortable.

If you can't let go of this concern then get tested at 13 weeks, which you're very close to now, and collect the inevitable negative result to put your mind at ease.
Andy Velez

Offline tr1980

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Re: Possible condom breakage?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2009, 09:36:31 PM »
Hi there,

I am really worried over an incident at a bath house. I had protected (used a condom) receptive anal sex. We used plenty of lube and there was not too much friction. When he came, I thought I had felt it and was worried the condom had broken. I immediately removed the condom after he withdrew and there was no visible sign that it had broken, but there did not appear to be any / much semen in the teet of the condom. There was suction when trying to remove the condom which leads me to believe it was intact. 30 mins past before I showered and I expelled the lube from my rectum. It seemed like quite a lot which scared me as I thought it might have been lube and semen. I could not be certain from the smell or texture. It seemed mostly clear opposed to whitish / opaque but still has me scared. I asked him afterwards if it had failed and he said it does not think so. I picked up the discarded condom and it did not appear to be leaking (although I did not blow into or fill with water to test)? I told him when I expelled the lube it seemed like a lot more than normal, and he did note he had rimmed me for quite some time before penetrative anal sex and would have likely been saliva. Still, it has me very worried I did not further test the condom than a basic observation of it in the dark. :(

Trent.


Offline RapidRod

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2009, 09:55:55 PM »
Had it failed you and him both would have known without a doubt.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2009, 09:57:46 PM »
Trent, this is more about what ifs than what actually happened. Nothing you have reported leads me to think you did not have successfully protected anal intercourse. If the condom had failed you would have known it.

Everything else is all about your fears. Maybe before you have any more sex you need to see a therapist and talk about your recurring anxieties about HIV and risk when there is no basis in science for them.

This is again not an HIV situation. Period. Get on with your life.
Andy Velez

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2009, 01:31:12 PM »
Andy / RapidRod,

Thanks for your replies. Helps lessen my fears. Although still not sure by "Had it failed you and him both would have known without a doubt" .. How?

I am assuming had it failed, there would be no suction / vacuum when trying to remove it? But that's an assumption. I'm not sure how a failed condom would behave. :(

Have tried Googling the topic, but sites just say test the condom by filling with water or air. There's no real information on the topic only statistics. :(

Trent.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2009, 04:16:45 PM »
You would have had a hand full of exposed penis had it failed.

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2009, 04:45:38 PM »
tr,

No reputable site is going to tell you to "test" a condom with air or water. Doing that is unnecessary and just plain stupid. Chances are it's going to break if you start blowing it up or filling it with water. That's not their intended purpose. If you break one when you're "testing" it, you're just going to scare yourself silly for no good reason.

As Rodney points out, when a condom fails it's very obvious and the penis would be totally exposed. It looks like a dick wearing a hula-skirt.

Read the condom and lube links in my signature line so you know how to use them correctly. A correctly used condom rarely, if ever, breaks.

Please don't keep posting about this latest no risk incident.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2009, 03:16:30 PM »
Andy, Rod and Ann,

Thanks for your replies.

Ann,

Gave your links a read. Makes me feel much more comfortable and secure that we did things right.

Best regards,
Trent.

Offline Ann

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2009, 04:07:48 PM »
Way to go, Trent.

Keep using them correctly and, importantly, consistently, and you'll be just fine where hiv is concerned.

Ann
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  



"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline tr1980

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Unprotected receptive oral sex with HIV+ partner.
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2010, 06:50:47 AM »
Hi there,

I started seeing a new partner approx. 2 months ago. In terms of activities, we have only engaged in mutual masturbation and unprotected receptive oral sex on each other typically as a precursor to mutual masturbation.

Only last week (1 week today), did he confess to being HIV+. I am not concerned about mutual masturbation or oral as the insertive partner. But as I engaged in atleast 5 acts of unprotected receptive oral sex I am worried sick (literally).

He tells me he was diagnosed in January and is not on any antiretroviral therapy. I am especially scared as there was always precum present and he would precum easily.

I have good oral and dental health and can't recall any mouth sores or cuts over the last 2 months but am freaked as there was repeated contact (atleast 1-2 times / fortnight).

He had a high risk incident (unprotected receptive anal sex) in Oct 2009 which lead him to testing in Jan 2010. I don't know what bearing this will have on viral load and potential infectiousness given he has been likely positive for 7-8 months.

Scared as Hell,
Trent.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2010, 07:21:22 AM »
The question as to risk or rather non-risk of giving oral has already been well covered in previous responses to you, Trent. Simply because you know for sure that your latest partner is HIV+ doesn't change the essentials as far as what we have said to you.

In longterm studies of sero-discordant couples, both gay and straight, there has been a lot of mutual unprotected oral and only protected vaginal and anal intercourse. To date not a single sero-negative partner has become infected. Saliva contains over a dozen proteins and elements which very effectively prevent the transmission of viable HIV.

I suggested previously that you ought to see a therapist or other professional to discuss your ongoing fears about HIV during your sexual activities. I still think that would be a good idea. Frankly we are not here to hold your hand so to speak everytime you have sex. You need to be applying the information which has been given to you to new situations as they come up. The bottom line is that as long as you consistently use condoms for anal intercourse you will be well protected against the sexual transmission of HIV.

Your anxieties are something we cannot deal with properly in this setting. Get some professional help. i
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 07:22:19 AM by Andy Velez »
Andy Velez

Offline tr1980

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Re: Unprotected receptive oral sex with HIV+ partner.
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2010, 10:04:25 PM »
Hi Andy,

Thanks for your response. I think my fears are exasperated as there were repeated acts, not just a single incident and that he would have me perform oral sex on him knowing he is HIV+.

There are feelings of anger and dishonesty mixed with fear which I agree this setting is not best to deal with.

I have seen my GP and he has organised a full STI screen and combined ELISA and P24. I realise at 8 weeks since the first incident and only 2 weeks since the last, it could be a false negative.

At 3, nearly 4 weeks since the last act, I am thinking to ask my GP to followup with an RNA PCR? As I won't be able to make 12 weeks of mental anguish. :(

I agree, counselling is probably needed and will look into this. I don't like running back to this place everytime I have an encounter with a HIV+ partner, but certainly do appreciate the support and perspective you give when I feel there is no one else I can talk to.

Offline RapidRod

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2010, 06:18:53 AM »
   Anyone who continues to post excessively, questioning a conclusive negative result or no-risk situation, will be subject to a four week Time Out (a temporary ban from the Forums). If you continue to post excessively after one Time Out, you may be given a second Time Out which will last eight weeks. There is no third Time Out - it is a permanent ban. The purpose of a Time Out is to encourage you to seek the face-to-face help we cannot provide on this forum.

Offline Andy Velez

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Re: Unprotected receptive digital + oral sex.
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 07:25:37 AM »
You can do any tests you like for HIV. It's all a waste of time and money because you didn't have a risk.

I am also warning you that if you continue to return here after all that we have said to you with more non-risk situations, you are going to get a 28 Day Time Out from the site.

Consider yourself warned. HIV is not your problem at this point and if you follow what we have suggested about using condoms everytime for intercourse then you won't have any risk for the sexual transmission of HIV. 
Andy Velez

 


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