Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 18, 2024, 11:25:49 pm

Login with username, password and session length


Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 772782
  • Total Topics: 66296
  • Online Today: 328
  • Online Ever: 5484
  • (June 18, 2021, 11:15:29 pm)
Users Online
Users: 1
Guests: 230
Total: 231

Welcome


Welcome to the POZ Community Forums, a round-the-clock discussion area for people with HIV/AIDS, their friends/family/caregivers, and others concerned about HIV/AIDS.  Click on the links below to browse our various forums; scroll down for a glance at the most recent posts; or join in the conversation yourself by registering on the left side of this page.

Privacy Warning:  Please realize that these forums are open to all, and are fully searchable via Google and other search engines. If you are HIV positive and disclose this in our forums, then it is almost the same thing as telling the whole world (or at least the World Wide Web). If this concerns you, then do not use a username or avatar that are self-identifying in any way. We do not allow the deletion of anything you post in these forums, so think before you post.

  • The information shared in these forums, by moderators and members, is designed to complement, not replace, the relationship between an individual and his/her own physician.

  • All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.

  • Forums members must behave at all times with respect and honesty. Posting guidelines, including time-out and banning policies, have been established by the moderators of these forums. Click here for “Do I Have HIV?” posting guidelines. Click here for posting guidelines pertaining to all other POZ community forums.

  • We ask all forums members to provide references for health/medical/scientific information they provide, when it is not a personal experience being discussed. Please provide hyperlinks with full URLs or full citations of published works not available via the Internet. Additionally, all forums members must post information which are true and correct to their knowledge.

  • Product advertisement—including links; banners; editorial content; and clinical trial, study or survey participation—is strictly prohibited by forums members unless permission has been secured from POZ.

To change forums navigation language settings, click here (members only), Register now

Para cambiar sus preferencias de los foros en español, haz clic aquí (sólo miembros), Regístrate ahora

Finished Reading This? You can collapse this or any other box on this page by clicking the symbol in each box.

Author Topic: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me  (Read 6579 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,175
  • Twerk Baby Twerk
(I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« on: April 22, 2011, 02:05:35 pm »
So it seems everyone is all in uproar over the fact that some "secret" file tracks your whereabouts if you own an iPhone or iPad.

Some people seem to think that Apple is akin to a cult that can do no wrong when it comes to people who buy their products

Anyway... I discovered there was a way to access this "tracking" information and decided to take a look at it to see what the fuss was all about.  All I saw was cell-phone towers in the general vicinity of the areas I was in at any given time. It wasn't like there was a big push pin in a map showing my home address, doctor's office, or even the liquor store that I picked up a six pack from a year ago.

Sheesh, people really need to stop hating on Apple.  (Yeah, I own several Apple products, but I am not a fanboi.)  I'll bet the ones who are paranoid and all up on this latest conspiracy theory are the main ones who bitched about iPhones only being available on AT&T and couldn't wait until Verizon started offering them so they could give the finger to AT&T, because according to their logic any other cell phone carrier is superior to AT&T, and don't have their share of problems.

http://youtu.be/wVfjwIyc-CU


don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Biktarvy. 
Last regimen:  Atripla (with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 13,455
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 03:22:43 pm »
I dunno.
I wonder if we'll see this information subpoenaed in court soon enough.  Maybe I've been watching too much The Good Wife!  Cell phone records are submitted all the time in cases on that show.  Is this real?
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,175
  • Twerk Baby Twerk
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 03:56:50 pm »
Is this real?

Just google "iphone tracking file" just to see how much hysteria is all over the interwebs

Shades of 1984

don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Biktarvy. 
Last regimen:  Atripla (with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline GSOgymrat

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,122
  • HIV+ since 1993. Relentlessly gay.
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2011, 04:53:56 pm »
I don't see this an Apple issue as apparently there are some HTC Android phones that do log your movements. Google, Facebook and other companies keep a lot of information about people. I am not paranoid and after as much information I have posted on the internet I have no room to complain about invasion of privacy (nude photos anyone?). However I do think that people should know that people can track you with your phone or electronic device. I have seen videos where you can hack people's phone, turn on their receiver, and listen to their conversations when they are not even on the phone. If Apple, Google or Microsoft were turning on the cameras of your devices and viewing you in your home I think people should know about that. People need to be informed about the limits of privacy and it is the responsibility of these companies to make that information public.

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 13,455
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2011, 05:59:23 pm »
Just google "iphone tracking file" just to see how much hysteria is all over the interwebs

Shades of 1984

Is it real that cell phone records are used frequently in court? If so, then why not also this tracking? I bet it will prove quite handy for some cases.
“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline Assurbanipal

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,177
  • Taking a forums break, still see PM's
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2011, 08:48:47 pm »
Apple iPhones secretly track and record their owners’ location, a potentially devastating privacy breach that experts warn could force people to face the fact that they never really go anywhere interesting.


http://www.satirewire.com/content1/?p=2787
5/06 VL 1M+, CD4 22, 5% , pneumonia, thrush -- O2 support 2 months, 6/06 +Kaletra/Truvada
9/06 VL 3959 CD4 297 13.5% 12/06 VL <400 CD4 350 15.2% +Pravachol
2007 VL<400, 70, 50 CD4 408-729 16.0% -19.7%
2008 VL UD CD4 468 - 538 16.7% - 24.6% Osteoporosis 11/08 doubled Pravachol, +Calcium/D
02/09 VL 100 CD4 616 23.7% 03/09 VL 130 5/09 VL 100 CD4 540 28.4% +Actonel (osteoporosis) 7/09 VL 130
8/09  new regimen Isentress/Epzicom 9/09 VL UD CD4 621 32.7% 11/09 VL UD CD4 607 26.4% swap Isentress for Prezista/Norvir 12/09 (liver and muscle issues) VL 50
2010 VL UD CD4 573-680 26.1% - 30.9% 12/10 VL 20
2011 VL UD-20 CD4 568-673 24.7%-30.6%
2012 VL UD swap Prezista/Norvir for Reyataz drop statin CD4 768-828 26.7%-30.7%
2014 VL UD - 48
2015 VL 130 Moved to Triumeq

Offline SunnyFlorida

  • Member
  • Posts: 176
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2011, 09:32:24 pm »
Yes, my iPhone has been keeping a database of my locations without my knowledge. No, I don't give a flying shit about it. In fact, I think it's awesome because it tracked me as I made a road trip from Central Florida to NYC, then State College, PA and then back home, with some trips to Orlando and Fort Lauderdale. This is freaking awesome.


Offline BigDaneDogs

  • Member
  • Posts: 35
  • Obviously does NOT like my FB pic.
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2011, 10:31:20 pm »
I know that I can log into my Me account at Apple and have it find my iPhone for me.  This is quite handy for me since I misplace it often.  As for them tracking me, I'm a BORING person to track - lol.
BigDaneDog because I have two big Danes.
Member since 1993

Offline tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,730
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2011, 12:18:36 am »
I don't see this an Apple issue as apparently there are some HTC Android phones that do log your movements. Google, Facebook and other companies keep a lot of information about people. I am not paranoid and after as much information I have posted on the internet I have no room to complain about invasion of privacy (nude photos anyone?). However I do think that people should know that people can track you with your phone or electronic device. I have seen videos where you can hack people's phone, turn on their receiver, and listen to their conversations when they are not even on the phone. If Apple, Google or Microsoft were turning on the cameras of your devices and viewing you in your home I think people should know about that. People need to be informed about the limits of privacy and it is the responsibility of these companies to make that information public.

I had seen news reports about the ability to turn on someone's phone and camera and listen and see them--even if the phone was turned off.  It looks like we'd have phone geeks doing this to celebrities.  There was also that story about a school turning on a school issued laptop and seeing what a student was doing at home.  So, we know this is possible.  I think it would be interesting to listen in to friends to see what they say about you after you leave.  Well, probably wouldn't want to hear it.  I wouldn't want it done to me, but they would just be bored with what they heard or saw.  The vain part of me would be worried about someone seeing me looking like hell or picking a boog...lol.  Rupurt Murdock's News Of The World or whatever it is called is in trouble now due to hacking into the voicemail of celebrities and Prince Harry and William.  Wonder if FOX or Wall Street Journal are doing that here? 

Offline tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,730
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2011, 01:20:20 am »
ABC News covered this story, or non-story, tonight.  They used Diane Sawyer's phone to pull up everywhere she had been in the last 10 months.  It showed NYC, Japan, The Carribean, and her trip home here to Louisville.  It didn't show her mother's Louisville address or anything.  I was curious about all the places she went outside of Louisville that showed up.  I'm sure family.  Just curiosity on my part.  It seems like this is no big deal.  But, it is not encrypted, so anyone who had your phone could track where you've been, or the general area.  I would think that is no big deal for most people unless someone is stalking you and figuring out where you go.  Or, if you were cheating.  Or, if you lived in a rural area and traveled to a larger city for HIV treatment and someone saw you were traveling to that city.  Still, you could lie about why you went or tell them it is none of their damn business.  We are tracked by our credit/debit cards, cameras are everywhere, and even our cars now have tracking equipment, and not just cars with On-Star. 

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/apple-iphones-track-users-smartphone-market-consumer-electronics-privacy-concerns-questions-business-13439927

Offline OneTampa

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,021
  • "Butterflies are free."
"He is my oldest child. The shy and retiring one over there with the Haitian headdress serving pescaíto frito."

Offline SunnyFlorida

  • Member
  • Posts: 176
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2011, 11:58:18 am »


This is who you should be worried about...

Offline Ann

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 28,134
  • It just is, OK?
    • Num is sum qui mentiar tibi?
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2011, 10:51:07 am »
I have seen videos where you can hack people's phone, turn on their receiver, and listen to their conversations when they are not even on the phone


What? How can they listen to a conversation you're not having on your phone? Or do you mean they can listen to conversations you're having with someone actually in the room with you? Because if that IS what you mean, that's pretty scary. Makes me want to chuck my phone out.
Condoms are a girl's best friend

Condom and Lube Info  

"...health will finally be seen not as a blessing to be wished for, but as a human right to be fought for." Kofi Annan

Nymphomaniac: a woman as obsessed with sex as an average man. Mignon McLaughlin

HIV is certainly character-building. It's made me see all of the shallow things we cling to, like ego and vanity. Of course, I'd rather have a few more T-cells and a little less character. Randy Shilts

Offline SunnyFlorida

  • Member
  • Posts: 176
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2011, 12:11:55 am »
What? How can they listen to a conversation you're not having on your phone? Or do you mean they can listen to conversations you're having with someone actually in the room with you? Because if that IS what you mean, that's pretty scary. Makes me want to chuck my phone out.

From what I understand, it had to do with early bluetooth-capable phones not requiring two way authentication to pair with a bluetooth headset. I read a research paper where one guy drove to a random office building, turned on his laptop with a bluetooth receiver that had been attached to an extended-range antenna and it detected several phones that had bluetooth turned on and "discoverable".

He was able to pair up with a phone in the middle of a call that had some confidential information about that company and record it. Mind, this was back in the mid-2000s when bluetooth had just become popular. Modern phones now require two-way authentication - the user has to manually approve a pairing with the headset, and the headset has to manually approve the pairing as well. If you've got a phone made in the last 4 years or so, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Anyway you should NOT set your phone to be discoverable through bluetooth unless you're setting up a pair for the first time. ;)

Back in the 80s/90s when the first cell phones came out, the analog signal could be easily eavesdropped using a modified CB scanner, but the analog signal standard (AMPS/TDMA) was abandoned in favor of modern standards that encrypts communications (GSM, CDMA, LTE) so that's not a concern anymore either.

Why yes, I'm in the IT field... Why do you ask? :P

Offline tednlou2

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,730
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2011, 03:06:34 am »
From what I understand, it had to do with early bluetooth-capable phones not requiring two way authentication to pair with a bluetooth headset. I read a research paper where one guy drove to a random office building, turned on his laptop with a bluetooth receiver that had been attached to an extended-range antenna and it detected several phones that had bluetooth turned on and "discoverable".

He was able to pair up with a phone in the middle of a call that had some confidential information about that company and record it. Mind, this was back in the mid-2000s when bluetooth had just become popular. Modern phones now require two-way authentication - the user has to manually approve a pairing with the headset, and the headset has to manually approve the pairing as well. If you've got a phone made in the last 4 years or so, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. Anyway you should NOT set your phone to be discoverable through bluetooth unless you're setting up a pair for the first time. ;)

Back in the 80s/90s when the first cell phones came out, the analog signal could be easily eavesdropped using a modified CB scanner, but the analog signal standard (AMPS/TDMA) was abandoned in favor of modern standards that encrypts communications (GSM, CDMA, LTE) so that's not a concern anymore either.

Why yes, I'm in the IT field... Why do you ask? :P

The news reports I saw had nothing to do with blue-tooth.  They were cases of people being able to turn the microphone and/or camera on your phone.  I'm not sure if this was possible on any phone or if someone got them to download a virus on a Windows phone.  I saw a few reports about this, but then nothing else.  Some experts said it was impossible while some said it was very possible.  I still don't know if the stories were accurate, or another media-hyped scare story.  But, I'm sure some tech nerd could do it.  Oh, the reports said even if you had your phone turned off, they could turn it on. 

Offline mecch

  • Member
  • Posts: 13,455
  • red pill? or blue pill?
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2011, 08:43:58 am »
All of this non stop tracking, becoming ever more invasive, makes one wonder what the implications are for evolution of the "social mind".
I remember the shift several years ago from having to be ontime, for dates at specified places, which were made hours or even days in advance! Imagine that.  Then gradually everything got quite negotiable...

If you can find everything and everyone you want, and if everyone and everything can find you, when it wants to, I dunno what my mind is going to feel like.

Like those stories of targeted cell phone advertising because you are in the zone of a certain billboard or shop or restaurant that fits your profile.  Like that gay cruising locator.  

“From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need” 1875 K Marx

Offline SunnyFlorida

  • Member
  • Posts: 176
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2011, 10:08:26 am »
The news reports I saw had nothing to do with blue-tooth.  They were cases of people being able to turn the microphone and/or camera on your phone.  I'm not sure if this was possible on any phone or if someone got them to download a virus on a Windows phone.  I saw a few reports about this, but then nothing else.  Some experts said it was impossible while some said it was very possible.  I still don't know if the stories were accurate, or another media-hyped scare story.  But, I'm sure some tech nerd could do it.  Oh, the reports said even if you had your phone turned off, they could turn it on. 

It is possible if people got their phones infected with a trojan, but to actually be able to turn them on? I call BS on that. Phones have to already be turned on in order for the cell tower to be aware of its existence and have the phone be remotely reachable. Some jailbroken iPhones are vulnerable to outside access because the people that jailbreak them and install OpenSSH did not change the default password (which is 'alpine', by the way!) I think the chances of that are lower these days, though.

There may be SOME truth to the news reports you saw, but in general the news media isn't a reliable source of tech and security information. That's why I go for engadget.com, tomshardware.com, etc. Every single tech news I've seen on TV were overblown and exaggerated out of proportion... like the tracking thing on the iPhone! :D

Offline sam66

  • Member
  • Posts: 277
  • Keep The Faith ; Fight The Fight
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2011, 01:14:53 pm »
What? How can they listen to a conversation you're not having on your phone? Or do you mean they can listen to conversations you're having with someone actually in the room with you? Because if that IS what you mean, that's pretty scary. Makes me want to chuck my phone out.

   Ann
         All modern moble phones can be used as microphone that will transmit any sound it picks up, even when the phone is off. And any one who has the access code for that phone can listen to what ever sound the phone picks up.
       only way to stop this is to take the battery out.

       http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11217012

  "Key to handset hacking, he said, was installing software on a device either by getting physical access to the mobile, tricking its owner into downloading a booby-trapped application or making them visit a page that inserts malware onto a device.

" Mr Coney said commercial software, known as spyware, was available that could take copies of everything on a phone, log its location and switch on any of its components. All without revealing its presence on a handset.

"They give remote access, take copies of text messages and can turn the telephone into an audio bug," he said. "
december 2007 diagnosed +ve ,

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,175
  • Twerk Baby Twerk
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2011, 01:42:11 pm »
It is possible if people got their phones infected with a trojan, but to actually be able to turn them on?

There may be SOME truth to the news reports you saw, but in general the news media isn't a reliable source of tech and security information. Every single tech news I've seen on TV were overblown and exaggerated out of proportion... like the tracking thing on the iPhone! :D

I agree.  News outlets do tend to create hysteria when it comes to technology :)

Once the hacker’s software finds and connects to a vulnerable Bluetooth-enabled cell phone, it can do things like download address book information, photos, calendars, SIM card details, make long-distance phone calls using the hacked device, bug phone calls and much more.  There’s a myriad of software freely available that’s made specifically to attack cell phones via Bluetooth connections, and every time an update to the technology or certain cell phones becomes available there’s bound to be new hacking software for it.  Certain attacks have become so prevalent that they even have names these days;

“Bluesnarfing” is the term associated with downloading any and all information from a hacked device, and can even allow the hacker to send a “corruption code” to completely shut the phone down and make it unusable.  “Bluebugging” is an even scarier hack- it involves using special software to connect to a device and silently making it call another device, usually one the hacker is using, to act as a phone bug.  The hacker can then listen in on anything you and anyone around you is saying.  Beyond these attacks, hackers can use software to route long-distance calls to worldwide locations to your phone using Bluetooth, which in turn sticks you with the carrier roaming charges.  Likewise, a hacked phone can even remotely be used to make “micro-purchases,” or purchases that show up on subscriber’s monthly bills.
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Biktarvy. 
Last regimen:  Atripla (with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline SunnyFlorida

  • Member
  • Posts: 176
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2011, 03:05:02 pm »
All modern moble phones can be used as microphone that will transmit any sound it picks up, even when the phone is off.

This part, right there, doesn't make sense. The trojan would have to be RUNNING in order to transmit sounds it picks up. How could it be running if the phone is turned off?

Phones are computers. People can unwittingly install malicious third party applications on their own phones. What media makes it sound like is "WARNING! WARNING! PEOPLE ARE LISTENING IN ON YOUR CONVERSATIONS RIGHT THIS MOMENT! TAKE OUT YOUR BATTERIES AND BURY YOUR PHONES!" when in reality it's not all that common, and it requires some action on the phone owner's part to make happen.

Just like you shouldn't click on a suspicious link in an email on the computer, you shouldn't do so on a phone or install programs you don't fully trust. Common sense.

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,175
  • Twerk Baby Twerk
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Biktarvy. 
Last regimen:  Atripla (with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

Offline SunnyFlorida

  • Member
  • Posts: 176
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2011, 06:41:47 pm »
Oh geez, there's now a class-action lawsuit over the iPhone tracking thing! Talk about a tempest in a freakin' teapot! :/

Offline Solo_LTSurvivor

  • Member
  • Posts: 1,175
  • Twerk Baby Twerk
Re: (I Always Feel Like) Somebody's Watching Me
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2011, 08:12:31 pm »
Oh geez, there's now a class-action lawsuit over the iPhone tracking thing! Talk about a tempest in a freakin' teapot! :/

*Thinks that someone from Google is behind it* ~ how else would they corner the market with those Android phones?   :o
don't equate intelligence with lack of masculinity
Jim Phelps, Mission Impossible
____________________________

Seroconverted: Early 80s
Tested & confirmed what I already knew: early 90s

Current regimen: Biktarvy. 
Last regimen:  Atripla (with NO adverse side effects: no vivid dreams and NONE of the problems people who can't tolerate this drug may experience: color me lucky ::))
Past regimens
Fun stuff (in the past):  HAV/HBV, crypto, shingles, AIDS, PCP

Jan 2012: 818/21%
Apr 2012: 964/22%
Jul. 2012: 890/21%
Oct. 2012: 920/23%

Still UD after all these years

 


Terms of Membership for these forums
 

© 2024 Smart + Strong. All Rights Reserved.   terms of use and your privacy
Smart + Strong® is a registered trademark of CDM Publishing, LLC.