POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: Rob - Dublin on June 05, 2006, 05:30:23 am
-
I was reading in Gay Times that medium to regular use (once per week apparently) of Amyl Nitrate (Poppers) lowers your CD4s. However there was not any data or numbers to back it up. My Doctor is completely anti poppers and has strongly advised me on non use as she says 'anyone with a suppressed immune system should eliminate them from their daily needs'. Has anyone any experience or knowledge of poppers lowering CD4s or effecting meds?
Rob
-
Hello Rob
There are no prospective controlled trials on use of amyl and immune suppression. There are many theories, however. Until they are tested they remain theories. Very much so.
Like any enjoyable susbtance, eg smoke, a drink too much, long-term frequent use is likely to affect your health. The key is moderation. There is a difference between a sniff or two once a week and taping a small brown bottle to your nose every evening. Some people like to have a go at amyl, like cos your HIV+ you can't have the sex you want - oftenthe lecture comes from someone with a Malborough Light etc in their hand....
Nitrates do no interact with HIV meds.
- matt "pass me the room freshener, I need to clean a spot on my leather sofa" the newt
-
Hello Rob,
I have done poppers in the past....Many years ago. I certainly would not do them now. If you are on Protease inhibitors, and using Viagra, or cialis, you should avoid poppers. Just something to think about...
From Aidsmap :
"There are no documented interactions between drugs used to treat HIV and poppers. However, sniffing poppers after taking the anti-impotence drugs Viagra and Cialis can result in a potentially dangerous, even fatal, drop in blood pressure. The dangers from sniffing poppers after taking Viagra or Cialis are increased if you are also taking a protease inhibitor as part of your HIV treatments. Protease inhibitors cause the amount of Viagra or Cialis in the blood to increase, and for this reason it is recommended that people prescribed protease inhibitors take only half the normal dose of Viagra or Cialis and do not use poppers at the same time"
Here is a link for additional info :
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/docs/0D8FD9DD-BCA8-46C2-8B0C-B31AB6EA82A6.asp
Ray
-
Hey Rob,
I remember having a discussion as to whether poppers caused GRID many years ago - at Mac's, a bathhouse on Hyperion Avenue in Los Angeles.
When I say many years ago, I am talking in the early 80s. Back in those days, nobody knew what was causing this and rumors were rampant.
I'm with Newt on this. The key is moderation. The information Ray provided also is very helpful and important.
There are those, especially some of our doctors, who would like us to live pristine lives, devoid of anything that might possibly harm us if there is overindulgence.
I still have a drink or two, or sometimes more than two. I still smoke, despite having tried to quit repeatedly. Given the opportunity, I would probably indulge in a hit of poppers, or maybe two.
As long as I am using common sense and moderation, and avoiding poppers if taking Viagra, I probably wouldn't be overly concerned.
HUGS,
Mark
(who still has a bottle of poppers, bought more than 10 years ago, in his freezer.)
-
I have used them when I was on Paxil which caused 'orgasm delays'
and they certainly didnt have any downwards effect on my cd4's. I talked about it to my dr who was against and to my psychiatrist who said it didn't matter. Pls note that this contribution has no scientific value and is based on a sample population of 1.
-
I had never really heard of this til I started looking on the internet. There doesn't really seem to be any proof, just conjucture. Of course doctors would recommend not doing poppers, just as they would discourage doing anything that might be considered indulgent. But until there's hard proof it won't affect my usage of them, which is a long way from every evening anyway.
-
From Aidsmap :
"... Protease inhibitors cause the amount of Viagra or Cialis in the blood to increase, and for this reason it is recommended that people prescribed protease inhibitors take only half the normal dose of Viagra ..."
The caution is for ritonavir (Norvir, therefore also Kaletra) and saquinavir (Invirase). These PIs increase Viagra (sildenafil citrate) etc levels.
Saquinavir, a mild inhibitor of the liver enzyme CYP3A4, elevates the maximum concentration of Viagra 2.4-fold and extends its half-life in the body by about one hour. Ritonavir, a much more potent CYP3A4 inhibitor, increases the maximum Viagra concentration four times and extends its half-life by almost two hours.
Pfizer has altered the Viagra dosing recommendations for men on protease inhibitors.
Men normally start out on 50 mg Viagra (only once in a given 24 hours) and raise or lower the dose based on the results and side effects. Men on saquinavir should instead use 25 mg as the initial dose. For ritonavir, the situation is more serious. In the study, side effects from Viagra (color distortion, dizziness, facial flushing, headaches and low blood pressure) were much more common in the volunteers on concurrent ritonavir. Pfizer advises that patients receiving ritonavir should take only one 25 mg dose of Viagra in a 48-hour period. The company is now trying to extrapolate its results for the other protease inhibitors, which fall between saquinavir and ritonavir in their inhibition of liver enzyme activity.
- matt "what, another email about blue pills?" the newt
-
Tks guys and like everything, moderation is the name of the game (well almost everything)!
Rob
-
I had no idea people still did poppers. I thought that went out in the 80s.
-
I had no idea people still did poppers. I thought that went out in the 80s.
Yes people still do poppers...I used some one time called "Can Opener" and something tells me that the name wasn't referring to beer...
-
I still use poppers (known as 'rush' here) from time to time. Red X is my fave brand.
MtD
-
I am partial to jungle juice myself. Very, very light use. This past year my CD4's went from 22 to 650. So, my personal experience says that moderation is the key.
-
Try HeadQuarters Gold Matty
-
Will do. Next trip to the Tool Shed. ;)
MtD
-
Yes people still do poppers...I used some one time called "Can Opener" and something tells me that the name wasn't referring to beer...
Hee-hee-hee-hee
-
Poppers are my preferred recreational drug, especially if I don't want to drink to excess and / or smoke pot. Plus, for those of us with the gift and curse of being really really tight, it can mean the difference between a fantastic evening and something not worth loading up the digital camera to record.
:P
-
I use poppers, but not very often though....I wasn't aware that it had lowered my cd4. My numbers tend to bounce around all over the place....
Justin
-
Did a search for "poppers" and sure enough there was already a thread. To see what members here thought about the various theories and recommendations out there. They're the only rec. drug I use (besides alcohol).
If I have a complaint about amyl nitrite (not nitrate) is that it's not; but perhaps that's a good thing. The little brown bottles commonly available are butyl or isobutyl nitrite; sometimes so weak that you actually want to try cleaning your defunct VCR with them.
Mark, you should keep that bottle for another 10 years; it's going to be valuable (and have have even more "sentimental" value).
Jay
-
Another question along this line: according to the explanation of how nitrate inhalants work, when inhaled the blood vessels expand, causing a sudden drop in blood pressure. To counteract this, the heart starts to beat faster, and a sudden "rush" of oxygen-rich blood flows into the brain. Now, this may be way off the mark (I am not a scientist), but if we know that hiv lodges in the brain, if we cause an increase of blood flow into the brain, and the blood has a viral load, would that cause a greater chance of hiv being deposited in the brain? Does our physiology work this way, or is this just plain wrong? Just curious.
-
Hello Rob - Dublin,
There was a discussion which was held in the "I Just Tested Positve" forum on September 02, 2006. A new member to the forum had posed the same question regarding "Poppers & CD4's". I'd like to share the information with you on what was found out about "Poppers":
Here's the Lowdown on Poppers
People who use poppers face certain risks -- and for critical health reasons it's important users know what those risks are.
"Poppers" -- fluids containing butyl or isobutyl nitrite that are often sold in bottles labeled "leather cleaner" or "room deodorizer" -- are inhaled, and the fumes of poppers trigger an immediate, short-term sensation.
The sensation, that of euphoria and muscular relaxation, is caused by blood vessel expansion, accelerated heart rate and blood rushing to the brain. This creates an intense short-lived "rush" experience. Poppers are used mainly as a recreational drug and are often combined with other drugs such as Ecstasy and speed. When used during sex, poppers can enhance orgasms and also may relax the muscles of the anus. However, they can also cause some people to lose their erection.
Individuals who use poppers should also know about the risks involved. They include:
Poppers dilate blood vessels and can increase the risk of tears in the anal tissue, increasing the opportunity for HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases to enter the body. Users can minimize their risk by putting a condom on before inhaling and by using plenty of lubricant.
Avoid using Viagra and poppers together as they both work to reduce blood pressure and can cause an individual to lose consciousness or even cause death.
Chronic use of poppers inhibits the immune system, impairing the body's natural ability to fight infection and disease. One study showed that the immune suppression effect could last for up to five days before the immune system returned to normal. People with anemia, glaucoma or heart conditions should avoid using poppers.
Regular use of poppers can cause sores in the mouth and nose, reduced sense of smell and cause lung damage. Excessive use may also result in a life-threatening reduction of oxygen in the blood. If swallowed, the drug can cause death.
Finally, poppers are highly flammable and should be kept away from any type of cigarette or flame.
Source: San Francisco AIDS Foundation.
Make the BEST of each Day!
-
Yeah, but are they bad for you?
-
Chronic use of poppers inhibits the immune system, impairing the body's natural ability to fight infection and disease. One study showed that the immune suppression effect could last for up to five days before the immune system returned to normal. People with anemia, glaucoma or heart conditions should avoid using poppers.
Hey Hal,
You DO have a very valid point. However, why would anyone want to inhibit their immune system when it is the very thing that they are fighting for to keep it as strong as possible? Why tear down what you are trying to rebuild?
Make the BEST of each and every Day!
-
;D
-
However, why would anyone want to inhibit their immune system when it is the very thing that they are fighting for to keep it as strong as possible? Why tear down what you are trying to rebuild?
Make the BEST of each and every Day!
Because some people like doing them and it's not always about protecting our precious immune system. Sometimes it's about other stuff too. And sometimes you just don't feel like making the best out of each and every day. Sometimes it's about just getting by, with whatever means necessary.
That's why.
-
Hey Cliff,
No one has written a disclaimer that you have to stop using "poppers". We are all given a free will to make our own choices in life. The information has been provided as to the effects of the usage of "poppers" with your immune system.
Also, if you do not feel like making the BEST out of each and every day, that is also your choice as well.
Make the BEST of each and every Day!
-
Cliff, hear hear!
Poppers, at worst, with occasional use have a transient effect on the lungs, white cells and perhaps liver, but no more than drink or a spliff. Like all drugs, consistent heavy use will be bad (but not that bad in this case).
No-one goes on about the dangers of sky diving, but it's well dangerous.
Life can be fun as well as healthy eh?
- matt
-
Chronic use of poppers inhibits the immune system, impairing the body's natural ability to fight infection and disease. One study showed that the immune suppression effect could last for up to five days before the immune system returned to normal. People with anemia, glaucoma or heart conditions should avoid using poppers.
Thanks for that post but I went to the S.F. Aids Foundation and did a search and found no information on nitrate inhalants...also, I thought that there was no proof that poppers inhibit the immune system..what gives? Would you happen to know where to read about that study? Finally, I suppose no one has any info on the original question, about increase blood flow to the brain increasing viral load there?? J.
-
Hey J220,
To answer your question, the San Francisco Aids Foundation currently has (3) three different publications. This particular article was published in their "OutReach" publication and it resides on their sister site in their archives.
If you choose to gather more detailed information regarding these studies, I strongly suggest that you contact the source who wrote the article. For your convience, their e-mail address is: feedback@sfaf.org .
If you choose to write a draft letter there mailing address is:
S.F. AIDS Foundation
995 Market St, Ste 200
San Francisco CA 94103
Make the BEST of each and every Day!
-
I found the article in Outreach, it dates back to 1999. Unfortunately they do not cite any sources, nor does the article even have an author's name...
-
Hey J220,
Just drop them an e-mail and see what their response is. There is also other sources as well which supports the article which was written. You will never know unless you ask.
Make the BEST of each and every Day!
-
Hi Eldon, which sources would that be ? Thank you and have a good day.
-
Hey Joemutt,
It is good to hear from you this evening. There are (2) two other sources that I found on the Web. These are to include:
http://www.liquidaromas.com/medical_advice.html (http://www.liquidaromas.com/medical_advice.html) - This site provides you with Medical Advice about using "poppers" along with warnings.
http://www.gmhp.net/health/poppers.html (http://www.gmhp.net/health/poppers.html) - This site is on the GMHP an HIV Prevention Project as of 2006. They are pretty direct with their wording.
Make the BEST of each and every Day!
-
YAY! Poppers!
you can buy them online at a place called popperbarn.com, they apparently sell well in bulk. :)
LOL
-joseph
-
*bump*
-
*bump*
are you crazy :o
-
yes
yes indeed
all of you will purchase poppers in SF... mark my workd
and ethyl
-
Ethyl Eichelberger died some time ago.
-
ummm, this might be a stupid question but what are poppers really? I mean, I know that you sniff on them so they must be a solvent of some kind but why do you do them? do they enhance sex somehow?
-
I remember sniffing glue in school. I liked it. They banned it few years later.
Milker.
-
UpAllNight,
Poppers are are inhaled nitrites (usually amyl or butyl nitrite but occasionally ethyl chloride is used) which have the effect of lowering blood pressure and relaxing smooth muscle.
Their use facilitates anal sex and other sexual practices such as fisting so they are very popular amongst homosexual men. They are also used by heterosexuals and lesbians for various vaginal and anal penetrative activities.
Amyl nitrite is also used to treat some heart conditions and cyanide toxicity.
At one point it was suggested that inhalant nitrite abuse was the cause of AIDS, an hypothesis that was debunked upon the discovery of HIV. Some people maintain that there is a link between nitrite use and Kaposi's Sarcoma. This has also been conclusively disproven.
MtD
(Who knows that there are no stupid questions only inquisitive idiots) ;)
/edited because I left out the winky to indicate light hearted and good natured humour/
-
"Some people maintain that there is a link between nitrite use and Kaposi's Sarcoma. This has also been conclusively disproven." MtD
There is disagreement about the link between poppers and KS being conclusively disproven. The question remains open and controversial. Checkout www.gmhp.net/health/poppers.html for a perspective on poppers.
Researcher Dr. Corey Casper reports in the journal Sexually Transmitted Diseases, 2006 : "Popper(amyl nitrite) use was also significantly associated with HHV-8 infection.
"Compared with men who never used "poppers," use less than once a week was associated with a 1.3 fold increased odds of HHV-8 infection"...."use 1-2 times per week 2.9 -fold increase"..."and use >3 days per week 3.4 -fold increase."
"The strong dose dependent relation between popper use and HHV-8 infection has been found consistently in epidemiologic studies. A number of explanations have been offered for this association, ranging from the effects of nitrites on immune function to the vasidilatory properties of these drugs. We found evidence of amyl nitrite use being significantly associated with sexual behaviors that could confer a greater risk of STI acquisition. Therefore the question of whether the relation between amyl nitrites and HHV-8 is biological or behavioral remains unanswered."
from Corey Casper, MD. Sexually Transmitted Diseases 2006; 82:229-235; "HIV Serodiscordant sex partners and the prevalence of human herpesvirus 8 infection among HIV negative men who have sex with men: baseline data from the EXPLORE Study"
While associations are not always causal, there existence is a clue which drives research. A KS mystery exists. Most gay men with HHV-8 do not develop KS.Prevalence of KS and prevalence of HHV-8 is disproportionate among gay men. HHV-8 is most prevalent in saliva and suspected to be transmitted through deep kissing. However, most kissers, including kissing gay guys, do not have HHV-8. HHV-8 infection and KS may be multifactorial. Research on the KS/HHV-8 mystery continues.
A basic concern about poppers is that they may be immunosuppressive increasing susceptibility to infections... to.HIV, HHV-8, and others. Frequency and quantity of use may impact the degree and duration of immunosuppression and susceptibility.
In 1991 Dr. Elizabeth Dax conducted a human study on popper use and its impact on the human immune system. She demonstrated that 3 inhalations resulted in immediate suppression of natural killer cell function. It took 4 days for the immune system to recover to baseline. However, after returning to baseline, the immune system continued to stay stimulated. A stimulated immune system is not desirable if you have HIV infection.
Many questions about poppers remain unanswered. Hank
-
*bump*
gee, thanks ever so much philly >:(
-
gee, thanks ever so much philly >:(
I'm always happy to non-impress you.
-
I'm always happy to non-impress you.
Success
-
Success
You're such an easy damsel... and ever so charming.
-
You're such an easy damsel... and ever so charming.
Easy? I'm not the one who has paid to sleep with every third rate, third world hustler in the Western Hemisphere. ;D Pass the poppers please.
-
Easy? I'm not the one who has paid to sleep with every third rate, third world hustler in the Western Hemisphere. ;D Pass the poppers please.
Oh, did I actually pay for these men? I merely bought some gifts. There was no fee for service dear.
Nice try though. Most was bartered through cocaine, something I'm sure you know well.
-
And let's not go into the story where I had to take Luis Alberto Reyes Bourgos to La Clanica because of heart palpitations due to poppers intake :)
-
Oh honey, you're the only queen I know that can somehow work being banged in a bathroom by a Dominican prostitute into the Nutrition & HIV forum.
-
Oh honey, you're the only queen I know that can somehow work being banged in a bathroom by a Dominican prostitute into the Nutrition & HIV forum.
Well... that counts for something :)
-
Well... that counts for something :)
OH NO!!! THE BRIDE OF POPPERS AND HIV REVISITED!!! NOOOOOOOO!
-Joseph
-
All-
I wud consider in the use of Poppers, that moderation is key. That has been the ONLY recreational drug that I have done for quite a time and my 1st popper use since has been last weekend, so I doubt that it had an effect. I wud still consider the entire theory of "mederation is key" until some documented proof of the negative effect of popper use and HIV.
Rob
-
Plus they evaporate almost immediately... certainly when you spill them all over the mattress.
-
Therefore the question of whether the relation between amyl nitrites and HHV-8 is biological or behavioral remains unanswered
Key sentence this- so we know nothing.
All recreational drugs are bad for the immune system with sustained, high dose use. I feel the thing about poppers is often a guilt thing about getting the sex you want/a way to show yo are now being healthy in a Lutheran Church kinda way. I know loads of straight people and lesbians who use poppers and they don't get KS. But they's not HIV-positive. The KS in gay men in 1he 1980s and 90s was, er, perhaps related to HIV and immune suppression, and poppers largely incidental....Plus many people who get/got KS, gay or just Southern European, never used poppers. (just saying)
-
Key sentence this- so we know nothing.
I feel the thing about poppers is often a guilt thing about getting the sex you want/a way to show yo are now being healthy in a Lutheran Church kinda way.
I love you -- so spot on dear
-
Key sentence this- so we know nothing.
I feel the thing about poppers is often a guilt thing about getting the sex you want/a way to show yo are now being healthy in a Lutheran Church kinda way. I
No guilt here, I am a proud popper pig!!!
-
main point: poppers are immunosuppressive.....just 3 inhalations immediately suppressed natural killer cell function 30% and it took 4 days for immune system to return to baseline.
the good news: the immune system recovers, not permanently damaged
the bad news: the immunosuppression increases susceptibility to infections...HIV, HHV-8(the virus necessary for development of KS), or other infections that might leave you vulnerable even after the immune system returns to baseline....but you are now infected. Someday we may be able to delete the HIV and HHV-8 infections...but in the meantime...there are treatments down the road if needed
Elizabeth Dax et al. "Amyl nitrite alters human in vitro immune function" in the journal Immunopharmacology and Immunotoxicity 1991; 13(4):557-587. PubMed 1685501.
Elizabeth Dax et al. "Effects of nitrites on the immune system of humans." Health Hazards of Nitrite Inhalants: NIDA Research Monograph 83 1988 March; 75-80. PubMed 2902516.
-
Thanks for those horribly relevant 1991 and 1988 sources, Smoothstone. Haven't you been warned about depending on such things to support your flimsy case previously by the moderators?
-
The Dax study abstract:
Amyl nitrite alters human in vitro immune function. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1685501&dopt=AbstractPlus)
Effects on the human immune system of volatile nitrite inhalation were studied in 18 male volunteers. While nitrite inhalation decreased the absolute number of CD3+ T lymphocytes during the period of inhalation, cell numbers returned to pre-treatment levels within one week after cessation of the drug. Nitrite inhalation did not alter the percentage of CD3+, CD4+, CD8+ or CD19+ lymphocytes. [my emphasis, in case people miss this] Natural killer (NK) cell activity against K562 target cells was depressed by nitrite administration but returned to pre-inhalation or greater levels after nitrite discontinuation. Cell proliferation following cell activation by PHA, ConA and PWM was unaffected by amyl nitrite inhalation. We conclude that in humans inhalation of volatile nitrites causes cycles of modest immunosuppression, particularly in NK activity, followed by gradual recovery when the drug is not inhaled for several days.
..there you go a lab study which shows you can count less CD3+ cells in peripheral blood in 18 men who sniffed poppers.
The other one is a monograph, and neatly summarises many studies which show solvent inhalation has a moderate, short term immunosupressive effect the goes on to speculate how this might effect HIV replication. Indeed, theorise. The same could be said of (1) any cold you have (2) touch of the sun (3) jetlag (4) too much cheese.
No-one has prosepctively examined whether popper use v non-use causes a significant decline in immune function because, well, it doesn't look like being an instant research high, or even a decent PhD.
- matt