Curiosity killed the cat..... but curiosity can be eye opening.

[Denvaux]

Since part reading Ed Hooper's book the river I have been doing a lot of online research about the subject matter and related issues so thought I'd do a poll to further stimulate my curiosity.

[Jim Allen]

Ed Hooper's book the river....?

I can vaguely remember reading it years ago, it was the late 90's right ?
It was at the same time or very shortly after Wakefield fraudulent autism papers were published.

Ed Hooper I think tried to link the HIV spread to humans from SIV based on the timelines of some Polio vaccine experiments that included some primates.

EDIT:

I just googled to check and it is the same Ed Hooper book I was thinking about, it was his booked based mainly on his personal observation and theories from the early to mid 90's that he than published in the late 90's. It was in regards to a oral vaccine given / developed in the late 50's.  However his theory that HIV could survive the vaccine process and than spread though a oral vaccine was dismissed at the time and after that the rest of the theory was dismissed and dis-proven in later years.. 

[Jim Allen]

Found out that Ed Hooper and his book is in a wiki page for anyone wondering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Hooper
 
My opinion is it's people like Hooper and Wakefield that scare other people away from vaccines. Difference is Wakefield did it deliberately vs Hooper does it from ignorance in trying to uphold a theory that is simply incorrect and not his own to start with.

[Denvaux]

I don't accept that it was absolutely disproved, and looking on his website quite clearly nor does he; in fact he states clearly that he is more convinced today than ever before that he was and is correct...

To suggest that having found a vile of the original vaccine - when previously it was said that none had survived the time period, and that that example was not contaminated- hence destroying the theory is  ignoring the magnitude and implications if such a case was proven..... you must see that it could be in the interest of many to lie.

Correct, the theory wasn't Hooper; it was something he followed up and in so doing [he] found evidence (it's all on film from the period), that Kaprowski did indeed use chimpanzees at the vaccine development camps;  I ask. Why did he lie, saying chimpanzees were never used?  I am a strong believer that a person found to be lieing must be dismissed regarding everything he says.

It would not be the first time that humans have been infected with an animal born (monkey), virus as a direct result of growing a vaccine on monkey kidnies and I for one won't dismiss this "theory" yet.

[Denvaux]

I don't claim to be an expert here; I am merely forming opinions based on what I have read and looked at on the net and in books.  Certainly the correlation between the areas where persons were immunised and the areas where AIDS was first sited and later became rampant are so presice that dismissal is ludicrous.

It appears that medical science would rather believe that the hunting cleaning and eating of infected chimpanzees is the more valid theory:  that being the case, why when Africans have hunted and eaten chimpanzees for hundreds of years- why is Aids so young?

[Jim Allen]

I don't claim to be an expert here; I am merely forming opinions based on what I have read and looked at on the net and in books.  Certainly the correlation between the areas where persons were immunised and the areas where AIDS was first sited and later became rampant are so presice that dismissal is ludicrous.

It appears that medical science would rather believe that the hunting cleaning and eating of infected chimpanzees is the more valid theory:  that being the case, why when Africans have hunted and eaten chimpanzees for hundreds of years- why is Aids so young?

Correlations can be found in anything depending what you want to prove or disproof. Running correlations on limited data points means nothing.

I don't accept that it was absolutely disproved, and looking on his website quite clearly nor does he; in fact he states clearly that he is more convinced tokay than ever before that was and is correct...

Him sticking to his story or having a website proves nothing.
I once had to deal with a guy who believes and still does BTW that his website is a portal linked dirrectly to God. My point anyone can setup a website.
 

To suggest that having found a vile of the original vaccine - when previously it was said that none had survived the time period, and that that example was not contaminated- hence destroying the theory is  ignoring the magnitude and implications if such a case was proven..... you must see that it could be in the interest of many to lie.

Correct, the theory wasn't Hooper; it was something he followed up and in so doing [he] found evidence (it's all on film from the period), that Kaprowski did indeed use chimpanzees at the vaccine development camps;  I ask. Why did he lie, saying chimpanzees were never used?  I am a strong believer that a person found to be lieing must be dismissed regarding everything he says.

It would not be the first time that humans have been infected with an animal born (monkey), virus as a direct result of growing a vaccine on monkey kidnies and I for one won't dismiss this "theory" yet.

Look you have you options and I have mine,  clearly were not going to see eye to eye on this one so ill be honest what i think and leave the topic alone after that.

His theory is that of tin hats and is scare mongering in this day and age, his theory was disproved and dismissed then and still is and what you posted is not the only reason his (borrowed) theory was dismissed. It's an old theory with no evidence to back it up and kept alive in modern day by conspiracy theorists.
That and people who need to believe that the big bad government made them sick.
 
It's does nothing but spreads stigma & fear about vaccines that is simply not even related to modern medicine and causes undue fear of being treated for preventable illnesses.

Anyone not familiar with the hypothesis can see a quick breakdown of the story on the wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPV_AIDS_hypothesis   

Jim

   

[Denvaux]

Looking at the poll I set up, I see that at this time nobody has voted for option 3.  Had someone voted option 3  I think I could understand your reasoning behind brining up the concept of so called "conspiracy theorists";   that nobody has though, yet you did, is rather confusing - in fact it makes no sense.

You either know or you do not know that humans have in the past been infected with dangerous viruses in exactly the way Hooper describes and a previous polio vaccine was cancelled - the forerunner to kaprowskis African immunisation program in fact, and, precisely for that reason- it was contaminated.

All that is thus required is proof of possible contamination to keep this theory alive and the use of chimpanzees rather than  non SIV related monkies is something of a smoking gun IMO.

By the way Dubs, the website connected directly to divinity was an obsurd analogy.

[zach]

Irresponsible and dangerous pseudoscience. People believing conspiracy theories about the origins and treatment of HIV have needlessly cost the lives of untold numbers of people from AIDS. And now things like this could fuel a resurgence in polio.

Not sure why you're going down this rabbit hole Denvaux. This isn't academic curiosity. This is the ravings of denialists and truthers. Correlation does not imply causation, and the dots you're connecting are simply grasping at straws.

I'm disappointed in this. This is nonsense Den.

[Denvaux]

Rather than shoot down curiosity why not give your take on where this came from; how it crossed over from simien to man?
 The banging the "conspiracy theorist" drum is akin to Mcarthiests' banging of the anti communist drum.

Or is that conspiracy thinking also 

[zach]

Because there is nothing novel or new about the crap you're spewing here. This was settled 20 years ago.

This isn't starting a useful dialogue, this is kicking a dead horse. Your cute sunglasses may as well be blinders.

Back up your claims with peer reviewed citations. So far everything you've said was debunked ages ago. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You brought this here, the burden is on you.

[skeebo1969]

   I always thought deregulation of the airline industry and a pissed of flight attendant had something to do with it.   

[219pm]

Cover all facets. Just be strong enough to know what is real. I mean we are living in a country that gave 600 African American men syphilis, and left them untreated. But hey "it was a one time thing."


"Men have called me mad, but the question is not yet settled, whether madness is or is not the loftiest intelligence -- whether much that is glorious -- whether all that is profound -- does not spring from disease of thought -- from moods of mind exalted at the expense of the general intellect. Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night"

-- Edgar Allen Poe, American Poet

[Denvaux]

I notice Zack that with a tremendous body-swerve you side-step any responsibility for proving this debunking that I know nothing about; proof of debunking is an unbeatable tool to have- why keep it to yourself?

[zach]

there is a small teapot in orbit around the sun, it rides on the back of turtle

turtles, all the way down

believe what you will, this would be a pointless debate, and i won't be back to this thread

[Denvaux]

Zach, you are absolutely welcome to body-swerve your way right out of here just as Dubs did..... I'll sleep well tonight whatever you choose to do 

[Almost2late]

I don't think this so called conspiracy theory is all that far fetched.. I really don't know these things as facts but as far as the government passing HIV to homosexual populations, its quite a coincidence that the epidemic started just as so many gays began coming out a closets..

The biggest conspiracy theory is the invisible man in the sky who controls all and grants wishes. 

[skeebo1969]

The biggest conspiracy theory is the invisible man in the sky who controls all and grants wishes. 

Kevin Bacon died?

[Denvaux]

"Conspiracy theory";

this term born  "in essence" some 50 years or so  ago- what a great tool to not just squeeze debate but utterly destroy it- how so well it works;  it's creator I'm sure patented the term. 

[Almost2late]

Kevin Bacon died?

No, not this time but there may a connection.

[Almost2late]

"Conspiracy theory";

this term born  "in essence" some 50 years or so  ago- what a great tool to not just squeeze debate but utterly destroy it- how so well it works;  it's creator I'm sure patented the term. 

I agree

[Denvaux]

Correlations can be found in anything depending what you want to prove or disproof. Running correlations on limited data points means nothing.

For sure this part  Dublin, of your retort requires a better explanation as to your precise meaning?

Perhaps I'm not too bright on this one, but the fact - and it is a fact- that stats are used to prove or disprove an issue depending on whom is designing the said survey is without doubt, and, yes -stats work that way;
but this is no questions and answers survey that can be manipulated  by a statistical savvy politician......... we have here a real epicentre - real rampant epidemic progress and two things in common; 

those stats can't work in Europe...they can't work in Asia or Australasiia, and they don't work in North Africa or America.   Thus, are these stats unique to sub- saharan Africa only if we take  the polio immunisation program out of the equation?
That is absolutely daft- lest you explain otherwise.

[Jim Allen]

For sure this part  Dublin, of your retort requires a better explanation as to your precise meaning?

Perhaps I'm not too bright on this one, but the fact - and it is a fact- that stats are used to prove or disprove an issue depending on whom is designing the said survey is without doubt, and, yes -stats work that way;
but this is no questions and answers survey that can be manipulated  by a statistical savvy politician......... we have here a real epicentre - real rampant epidemic progress and two things in common; 

those stats can't work in Europe...they can't work in Asia or Australasiia, and they don't work in North Africa or America.   Thus, are these stats unique to sub- saharan Africa only if we take  the polio immunisation program out of the equation?
That is absolutely daft- lest you explain otherwise.

Funny as the moment I read you asking me to elaborate I got a flashback to Gravy.  Last time I asked you to perhaps elaborate on a 1 liner you posted the below reply:

I think that the human psyche  as is socialised where-so-ever we happen to live, is more than sufficient to recognise my contention and that such elaboration is not required as it is  merely misplaced gravy (in my opinion); I came here once wanting to die, yet, in time and todayI want to live- partly thanks to sites such as this one, but I have however, no time for gravy.

But ill be polite and answer it I have no beef with you I just fundamentally disagree with you on this topic.

To elaborate as requested statistics that happen to coincide is not a prove of anything and you know this. I expected better from you on that Denvaux.

Correlation does not imply causation. A positive correlation whilst forgetting that events or statistics that happen to coincide does not necessarily causally related. So simple correlation is not prove or evidence of anything. Despite what people are often duped into thinking it might be. The bottom like is a few simple correlation points from a data set, means nothing. Data correlation is just data correlation and not evidence of anything until proven otherwise. Statistics when looking for correlations is not fact and you know that, what is often seen by joe blogs in the media is often just a diluted and/or misrepresented or misinterpreted data as scientific (man in lab coat) evidence or prove. It's not. 

But you know that yourself Denvaux. I think your smart enough to understand that statistics is not prove and correlation is not evidence. You are not asking me a true question.
 
You also mention surveys, Yes that's indeed even worse than lab-coat correlation and messed up statistics. Survey analysis is science for 5 year old and the gullible types hence it's loved by shampoo manufactures and politicians. The analysis is best often poor and at worst biased with a predetermined or wanted outcome, the questioning itself is often biased and the size statistically negligible. Hence used by daytime TV, soap companies and politicians to justify themselves or products. 

I have nothing additional (new) to add beyond what I have already said before as I simply have nothing positive to add and I don't see the need to say anything hurtful on the subject. 

Wishing you all the best

Jim.

[Denvaux]

I'm really not sure why you felt the need to pull up a quote from me pertaining to the fact that due to hiv I once wanted to die, "emotionalism perhaps", I don't know.
 
It is however plain to see that I set a poll to get a sense of perceptions on here regarding my speculation- no more than that and  I pretty much said as much.

My understanding is that all and sundry have a right to vote or indeed speculate; it seems though, that opinions once again are not aloud for (it appears) if they don't fit they get mocked or shouted down- and in some cases childishly.

I see no wrong in speculation... I even took the caution of posting this thread in the OFF TOPIC forum... I deliberately didn't place it in the  research forum- but it found its way here.

Interesting that you put up a link to wilki -the no nonsense all facts link trusted by very few - that those not familiar with this book can gain insight- that's laughable IMO.
 A better link would be to go to the aged documentary which can be found on you tube entitled The bigging of AIDS  ED HOOPER THE RIVER.

Absolutely it is speculation: but it is speculation that is ignored foolishly; as taken realistically- and it (by science), has not been, the case that is put- were it put in front of a law court in front of judge and jury under criminal law would likewise have been thrown out due to lack of evidence.  That being said- were this case put in front of a judge and jury under civil law- were the burden of proof is much less- I have no doubt whatsoever that the court would find in favour of Hooper and not science.  This being the case in my mind- to dismiss curiosity and speculation on this issue is folly.

By the way Dubs, it has nothing to do with having personal "beefs" as you put it- so stop taking it personally.

[Jeff G]

Off topic is where we talk about anything other then HIV … I agree it does not belong here in the research forum since the topic has no merit but it’s the best fit under the circumstances . Ramble on dude.

[Jim Allen]

I'm really not sure why you felt the need to pull up a quote from me pertaining to the fact that due to hiv I once wanted to die, "emotionalism perhaps", I don't know.

Please don't twist my reply into something it's not.
I'm commenting on you refusing to elaborate after I asked you to do so on a one liner you posted, and caling my request "Gravy"  Fast forward a few months and the shoes on the other foot so to speak.
No need for you to go off into the deep end and read anything more than that out of it.

By the way Dubs, it has nothing to do with having personal "beefs" as you put it- so stop taking it personally.

Don't worry I don't, but by your post I see you are.

I simply and fundamentally disagree with you on this topic, and that's okay.
Nothing more nothing less.

[Denvaux]

Not at all Dubs, it just so happens to be close to midnight here as well you know,and I've by now tasted the fermented grapes..... you had plenty of time to waltz (as JK would say), when I was grape free.

Good night   

[leatherman]

as far as the government passing HIV to homosexual populations, its quite a coincidence that the epidemic started just as so many gays began coming out a closets..

I was out all day and frankly admit I haven't read all this thread; but that is simply bullshit! 
(sorry mods; but I did just read through the nonsense in this thread and still believe in calling a spade a spade)

HIV has been genetically traced to back to Kinshasa (now the Democratic Republic of Congo) in the 1920s. Thousands upon thousands of Africans were infected and dying long before any queers (you know, my friends and partners) in the states were dying of the plague (you know, the plague I've been infected with and living with for thirty-one years)

Suggesting there is a correlation to gays coming out (since many gays have been "out" long before the 1970s, I'm not even certain what time period you're suggesting for this mass coming out) and the US government (I assume that's the "government" to which you are referring. There are  many "governments" on our planet and many are represented by members here. I'm just going to assume, without looking at your profile, that you're very America-centric), suggesting there is some correlation is just lazy research, history, and science; and the very epitome of conspiracy theory nonsense.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-29442642

HIV is a mutated version of a chimpanzee virus, known as simian immunodeficiency virus, which probably made the species-jump through contact with infected blood while handling bush meat.
The virus made the jump on multiple occasions. One event led to HIV-1 subgroup O which affects tens of thousands in Cameroon.
Yet only one cross-species jump, HIV-1 subgroup M, went on to infect millions of people across every country in the world.
The answer to why this happened lies in the era of black and white film and the tail-end of the European empires.
In the 1920s, Kinshasa (called Leopoldville until 1966) was part of the Belgian Congo.
Prof Oliver Pybus said: "It was a very large and very rapidly growing area and colonial medical records show there was a high incidence of various sexually transmitted diseases."

[leatherman]

why is Aids so young?

at over 100 years old (or more), HIV (not AIDS btw, get your terms right please) isn't all that young; but just the same, it's here now because evolution didn't stop after "god made the world in 6 days". Evolution is even still happening.

Heck, my HIV has mutated/evolved several times in just the last three decades - and I just got the genotype results back recently to prove it has evolved even more. Matter of fact, evolution is the reason we genotype newbies in the first place to put them on the right meds. Evolution is also why we have drug-resistant syphilis as a growing epidemic all over the states.

[initforlife]

Here is my thought.. I don't care where it came from  I have hiv.  and what I care about is where it will END!

[Denvaux]

I was out all day and frankly admit I haven't read all this thread; but that is simply bullshit! 
(sorry mods; but I did just read through the nonsense in this thread and still believe in calling a spade a spade)

HIV has been genetically traced to back to Kinshasa (now the Democratic Republic of Congo) in the 1920s. Thousands upon thousands of Africans were infected and dying
long before any queers (you know, my friends and partners) in the states were dying of the plague (you know, the plague I've been infected with and living with for thirty-one years)

Suggesting there is a correlation to gays coming out (since many gays have been "out" long before the 1970s, I'm not even certain what time period you're suggesting for this mass coming out) and the US government (I assume that's the "government" to which you are referring. There are  many "governments" on our planet and many are represented by members here. I'm just going to assume, without looking at your profile, that you're very America-centric), suggesting there is some correlation is just lazy research, history, and science; and the very epitome of conspiracy theory nonsense.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-29442642

It's most unfortunate that you chose not to read the thread from the start for had you done so you would have seen very clearly that four scenarios were put as to the arrival of HIV in humans; one option (the none of the above option), encouraged whom so ever to further speculate if my options list didn't suit them. I think that your attack on Almost2Late was excessive and not called for but then- you too are entitled to your opinion.

Coming to which, I am finally happy that you have indeed put up a serious re post countering my position rather than mocking as others have done. Saying that, I notice that your article is dated just thirteen months old  last October yet the scientific belief that HIV predates the mass polio vaccine program is old hat. It is precisely the argument put up against Hooper's theory at the royal institute when he took on the scientists but at that date although science stood steadfast others said it remained speculative.

 I would like to believe that science has truly  traced the ancestry of this virus and when, where, and how the cross over came about; Hooper's book opts for The Dem Rep Congo (Zaire) and links it to polio vaccines; and it has since those claims been necessary for science to counter Hooper's accusations and a scientific explanation debunking this period was always on the cards...... I just hope science are not jut playing politics.

[Denvaux]

Here is my thought.. I don't care where it came from  I have HIV.  and what I care about is where it will END!

I pretty much agree with that sentiment:  I too don't care here it came from- I have it and have to live with it; I do though add one caveat and that is that if there is any truth in Hooper's allegation that science negligently gave the world HIV and AIDS- that I very much care to know about and see something done about!

[Almost2late]

I was out all day and frankly admit I haven't read all this thread; but that is simply bullshit! 
(sorry mods; but I did just read through the nonsense in this thread and still believe in calling a spade a spade)

HIV has been genetically traced to back to Kinshasa (now the Democratic Republic of Congo) in the 1920s. Thousands upon thousands of Africans were infected and dying long before any queers (you know, my friends and partners) in the states were dying of the plague (you know, the plague I've been infected with and living with for thirty-one years)

Suggesting there is a correlation to gays coming out (since many gays have been "out" long before the 1970s, I'm not even certain what time period you're suggesting for this mass coming out) and the US government (I assume that's the "government" to which you are referring. There are  many "governments" on our planet and many are represented by members here. I'm just going to assume, without looking at your profile, that you're very America-centric), suggesting there is some correlation is just lazy research, history, and science; and the very epitome of conspiracy theory nonsense.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-29442642

I'm entitled to my opinion like any other member here.. You can put up all the angry faces you like and it DOESN'T change my opinion.. You think your government is so wholesome? The government and YES I'm referring to USA, has a long history of doing some fucked up shit to its citizens who they consider not assimilated into society, so its not such a far fetched theory IMO..

And I was referring post stonewall early 70's when gay liberation movement began marching all over the country and were hated by many people and government officials.. HIV may have been around a long time in Africa but it showed itself in the US during that era.. That's quite a coincidence as I said ..

I'm not surprised with this "bullshit" as its seems you and the rest of your clique just don't care for my opinions.. you don't know how to talk to people you consider different.. I don't belong here.. Its just for tools like YOU.. FUCK YOU!!

[Denvaux]

Almost2Late, take a deep breath- don't fall into that trap - you'll find yourself given a time out banning as IMO some here look for that option.
Stand firm with your opinions - they are valid- you live in the real world not a world that is dictated to you by science or politicians- keep it that way and you'll do just fine.

The covert infecting of persons with the syphilis bacteria; the covert sterilisation of certain women of a certain race, and, covert over seas insurrections and installation of puppet governments, are but three points that validate your stance:   Why then should you be shot down when quite clearly HIV/AIDS a very new disease or syndrome affects mostly Blacks, Hispanic, Asians and Gays?    Shaky ground I know -but that sure looks like a target grouping to me.

[zach]

Source: The College of Physicians of Philadelphia, mere blocks from Saint Philicia's flat
 
http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/debunked-polio-vaccine-and-hiv-link

10 minutes of your time, a well done explanation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF3JGrt9Zvo


Source: Centers for Disease Control
Where did HIV come from?
Scientists identified a type of chimpanzee in West Africa as the source of HIV infection in humans. They believe that the chimpanzee version of the immunodeficiency virus (called simian immunodeficiency virus, or SIV) most likely was transmitted to humans and mutated into HIV when humans hunted these chimpanzees for meat and came into contact with their infected blood. Studies show that HIV may have jumped from apes to humans as far back as the late 1800s. Over decades, the virus slowly spread across Africa and later into other parts of the world. We know that the virus has existed in the United States since at least the mid- to late 1970s.

[Denvaux]

I'm proud of you Zach, you went to bed an irrational child and woke up this morning a cogent and lucid adult   

[leatherman]

I'm not surprised with this "bullshit" as its seems you and the rest of your clique just don't care for my opinions..

nope, I don't care about your "opinions" at all. I care about science, facts, history, and biology. People's opinions are only valid as long as there is evidence (verifiable, scientific evidence) to back those opinions up. Otherwise a person is just talking nonsense. So you may be right, after 30 yrs of living through this disease and working with state health departments and other agencies who actually collect and analyze data to discover the facts, I may not know how to properly talk to whacko denialists and conspiracy theorists about their irrational fears and suppositions when compared to the facts of science about public health strategies, microbiology, chemistry, and how epidemics actually happen.

who knows if it was the slutty airline attendant or not, the fact is that HIV was mainly transmitted into a rather closed subgroup in America - Men who have Sex with Men (MSM) - and because they all kept fucking one another after the sexual revolution, the virus was heavily transmitted in that subculture. Of course, people didn't stay within their nice boxes, screwing only other gay men, and so HIV has spread in other subgroups in America (most notably black heterosexual women). Another portion of the epidemic has been fueled by needle-sharing drug users.

Why then should you be shot down when quite clearly HIV/AIDS a very new disease or syndrome affects mostly Blacks, Hispanic, Asians and Gays?    Shaky ground I know -but that sure looks like a target grouping to me.

good lord. You people should really get out more and take some classes - like biology and marketing. HIV is largely a disease of the African continent where approx 18,060,000 people (70% of  million worldwide) are infected. (that's because people in Africa have sex with people in Africa Oh, and almost all of that is heterosexual transmission)

In America, HIV initially got into the subgroups of "Homosexuals, Haitians, Hemophiliacs, and Heroin users" (the "4 H's" as we knew it in the days of GRID). Cleaning up the blood supply resolved one of those categories, and we've seen that needle-exchange programs can nearly resolve another category. Sadly though Haiti has continued to have a large HIV problem, and so have homosexuals in America.

that's not conspiracy, that's demographics.

[bocker3]

I'm entitled to my opinion like any other member here.. You can put up all the angry faces you like and it DOESN'T change my opinion.. You think your government is so wholesome? The government and YES I'm referring to USA, has a long history of doing some fucked up shit to its citizens who they consider not assimilated into society, so its not such a far fetched theory IMO..

And I was referring post stonewall early 70's when gay liberation movement began marching all over the country and were hated by many people and government officials.. HIV may have been around a long time in Africa but it showed itself in the US during that era.. That's quite a coincidence as I said ..

I'm not surprised with this "bullshit" as its seems you and the rest of your clique just don't care for my opinions.. you don't know how to talk to people you consider different.. I don't belong here.. Its just for tools like YOU.. FUCK YOU!!

Your constant victimization cries about not being liked because people don't agree with your opinions has moved past tiresome.  If you can't discuss things without reverting to the behavior of a child, maybe you shouldn't discuss.  Someone taking issue with you opinion doesn't mean they don't like you, just that they don't agree with you. 

As for the OP of this thread - he doesn't seem to have any agenda except stirring the pot.  I suggest we all start ignoring him, nothing a drunk provocateur hates more than being ignored!  Anyone who says that the "real world" isn't dictated by science, but by conspiracies is not someone to waste time debating.

M

[Denvaux]

As Almost2Late said: you really don't know how to speak to people that you disagree with without rubbing them up the wrong way.... but that's OK...you be yourself Leatherman.

Science is fine- there's nothing like concrete proofs and science (medical) has no doubt done many good things for humanity- that is without any doubt -but in this shady world we live in today who is to say that science on some issues aren't doing as those that control it says they must do?   Scientific conclusions are only as valid as the time period elapsed between said science fact and the new found scientific fact that destroys and replaces the previous science fact that you believed in previously- just as hypothesis' come and go- so too often times do so called science facts.

I do feel uncomfortable knocking science but the reality is that those that hold power pull the strings and if they (the pipers that call the tune) are moral persons then we are safe as such people are trustworthy; if however the piper or pipers are immoral then we are fucked quite frankly.

Unlike you, I do not one iota trust cliques that hold absolute power and that distrust also influences my perception of the many branches that they can or do control or influence, be it medical science, military science, political science or the media.  It is at the very least naive IMO to blindly accept the official version of anything we are told in this day and age and as I am sure you can already guest- even with Zacks belated post allegedly debunking Hooper's hypothis is -I remain unconvinced.


As I said in an earlier post:  I just hope that science are not merely playing politics.

[Denvaux]

Your constant victimization cries about not being liked because people don't agree with your opinions has moved past tiresome.  If you can't discuss things without reverting to the behavior of a child, maybe you shouldn't discuss.  Someone taking issue with you opinion doesn't mean they don't like you, just that they don't agree with you. 

As for the OP of this thread - he doesn't seem to have any agenda except stirring the pot.  I suggest we all start ignoring him, nothing a drunk provocateur hates more than being ignored!  Anyone who says that the "real world" isn't dictated by science, but by conspiracies is not someone to waste time debating.

M

Bocker3,  it is very easy to disagree with a poster without telling them that they are talking "bull shit".  I would think that a poster that speaks so vociferously about education, biology, media and the sciences- I would assume that such a person could dismiss a persons opinion with some decorum. As to 2late - If he perceives that he is being spoken down to and or belittled on regular occasions here -that is not perceived victimization- it's his opinion based on experience. Also you are now calling for a blanket ignore the OP just as Leatherman once called for me to be banned and if that isn't  representative of the clique he was speaking about what is it?

As to me, we had a long talk about alcoholism already so I see no reason to be going there except to say -you enjoy your non drinking alcoholic comfort zone status but please don't be putting others in that zone- you have absolutely no right.   

[Jeff G]

I sent Almost a message about his post in this thread . Lets please let it go at that for the time being.

Denvaux ... your habit or drinking to excess and posting here for kicks is nearing its end.

You are not debating a topic, you are only giving non responsive answers and insults. I hope others will see that you are a man with some serious substance abuse and possible mental health issues and stop responding to you when engage in this type of behavior.

[Denvaux]

I made it very clear all through out this thread that I was being speculative and not scientific; precisely  why I posted this thread in the off topic forum.     
Had yesterday's posters not turned this in to a slanging match and instead discussed the issues it would not have degenerated in to farce... and I might add - my very rare insults were only ever targeted at those that insulted me... people shouldn't dish out what they can't take back.

[Jeff G]

I made it very clear all through out this thread that I was being speculative and not scientific; precisely  why I posted this thread in the off topic forum.     

Once more . Off topic is where we discuss anything other than HIV .

[Andy Velez]

This is not going anywhere good going anywhere good.  While considering locking it down I've started by shutting down the poll.

[Denvaux]

Yes, locking the thread is a good idea IMO, it is going nowhere.

As to the poll I'm at a loss as to why so few voted.

[Wade]

Denvaux,
These Forums are for everyone.
Some come here support , some with questions,
some to share and discuss information , all different reasons.

What it is NOT for is nasty confrontational comments and slinging
insults at one another. I don't like mean spirited drama, and
have not commented in this thread for this reason.
I have made no mention of locking this thread until now .
Wade

I see you have edited out my name in your last post,
but Andy was right this is going nowhere good very fast.

[Joe K]

I wish to add two points regarding the forums.  The first is that we are dealing ONLY with the written word that is extremely limiting.  We only have the written word, no intonation or non-verbal communication, merely letters written on a screen.  I try to always assume that someone is posting with a civil intent and if I don't understand something, or maybe take it the wrong way, it's my responsibility to seek clarification from that poster.  We are dealing with a very limited form of communication here and we should try and remember that when dealing with each other.

My other point is that there is not a clique on the forum.  Virtually all of us, have had issues with other members and some of have known each other for over a decade.  This "experience" does not denote a clique.  What it does represent is a familiarity we have with each other and the understanding that provides.  We each have our own unique ways of communicating and just because you may take some words as offensive, does not equate with intent on the part of the poster.

Face it, our lives are challenging enough, so let's not add any more drama, especially where none is warranted.

Joe