POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: mikeyb39 on May 02, 2014, 01:46:24 pm
-
I was just reading an article titled 'get ready for the first million dollar drug', It always amazes me of how much the pharma companies are racking in on folks with cancer, AIDS, MS. Some of the costs of these new cancer drugs and MS drugs are crazy to me.
Someone commented on the article saying they have a cure for everything AIDS, Cancer and ETC.. I don't believe this to be true, but when you think about it what would be the benefit to these Pharma companies to come up with cures.
If they ever have a cure for AIDS, I wonder if anyone would be able to afford the treatment.
http://t.money.msn.com/top-stocks/get-ready-for-the-first-million-dollar-drug
-
They'll get you to take out a loan. After all, if you're cured of HIV, banks can expect you to work your butt off for the rest of your life to repay it.
-
If they ever have a cure for AIDS, I wonder if anyone would be able to afford the treatment.
http://t.money.msn.com/top-stocks/get-ready-for-the-first-million-dollar-drug
They already have a cure for AIDS. They don't have a cure for HIV. They'll get you to take out a loan. After all, if you're cured of HIV, banks can expect you to work your butt off for the rest of your life to repay it.
Who is they?
People in the US, Canada, Europe and Australia will most likely be able to afford a "cure" depending on what the treatment is and if it will allow you to completely stop arv treatment permanently.
Example: I take Complera at a cost of $2200 per month or $26,400 per year. I am 40 years old. Assuming I have a near normal life expectancy I could reasonably live another 40 years. My total HIV medication cost would be $1,056,000.
An HIV Treatment that say costs $100k or more could conceivably be quite cost effective.
The elephant in the room is the third world and Africa. They will most likely be unable to afford such a treatment.
-
One off the regular tragic news stories in UK is plucky ill individual fighting NHS for megaexpensive drug that extends life 10 months.
The nhs has a board who evaluate new drug treatments allowing some , not allowing others, and off course this thankless task is then extended by the above.
I cannot remember one off these stories having the Drug Company as villain.
At most there will be the drug company PR saying cost off research necessitates cost we are so sorry for child x but we still want you nhs UK to pay
It is hard to understand unless you just accept that most drug companies see the pricing off new drugs as a process off set a price then fight it out with Governments/Insurance companies until a price can be agreed , the Patient off course having a use to engineer strong emotion in the fight.
It is ghastly and the UK tabloid press love it , quite happy to run such stories and bash the Gov. off the day for the cost off running the NHS. The dilemma nether gets treated with the respect it needs, its just the pornography off the emotions that the tabloid press is interested in .
-
I was just reading an article titled 'get ready for the first million dollar drug', It always amazes me of how much the pharma companies are racking in on folks with cancer, AIDS, MS. Some of the costs of these new cancer drugs and MS drugs are crazy to me.
Someone commented on the article saying they have a cure for everything AIDS, Cancer and ETC.. I don't believe this to be true, but when you think about it what would be the benefit to these Pharma companies to come up with cures.
If they ever have a cure for AIDS, I wonder if anyone would be able to afford the treatment.
http://t.money.msn.com/top-stocks/get-ready-for-the-first-million-dollar-drug
Sweetie it was years ago that South Park announced that the cure for AIDS was discovered - drinking liquified money. ¨
They, evil big pharma, discovered a cure for Hep C. Its on the market this year and costs a shitload. Like 80-100K. Capitalist pharms didn't keep it off the market. They are going to make billions and are quite content with themselves and their expected profit.
If, IF, IF, it's pharma that discovers the cure, then they'll price it at what the market can withstand. Astronomical but within the range rich countries can pay. Then they will discount it to the developing world and make humanitarian gestures....
But who's to say the cure will be discovered and completely patented by pharma? With luck it'll be research in a developing country. If HIV came out of the jungle from monkeys, maybe the cure will come out of the jungle. One can always dream, right? It would be wonderfully poetic.
-
They cured polio, they'll cure this.. I am not so cynical to think that the big pharm companies would hide this.. They keep getting closer and closer, so it will come
-
Example: I take Complera at a cost of $2200 per month or $26,400 per year. I am 40 years old. Assuming I have a near normal life expectancy I could reasonably live another 40 years. My total HIV medication cost would be $1,056,000.
That's also assuming the prices don't continually rise out of proportion to the cost of living like the ones mentioned in the article.
-
at least if there is a cure, the price of ARV will be very cheap for people in third world country.
and i can drop my azt and change to tivicay.
(ps: azt is not that bad for me, no side effect, and freeeee)
-
The pharma's noble aim is for people to "live" while paying for the medicines they need to stay alive. After all, you can't dip into your coin clutch when you are dead.
Here is the Pharma Business 101 plan:
>Treatment = Outlay for ongoing (lengthy) medicine costs, adjusted for maximum profit.
>Cure = Outlay for potentially shorter medicine costs, adjusted for maximum profit.
I think though that there is a favorable evolutionary wildcard stepping up coming from various natural human genetic response discoveries.
-
They cured polio, they'll cure this.. I am not so cynical to think that the big pharm companies would hide this.. They keep getting closer and closer, so it will come
You might like to look at the http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/post_polio/detail_post_polio.htm (http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/post_polio/detail_post_polio.htm) before you think Polio is "cured".
Also the work covered a span off time approx1880 to 1962 before the vaccine was established. Our present day pharma industries/research labs/ economic situation make comparisons flimsy.
-
But who's to say the cure will be discovered and completely patented by pharma? With luck it'll be research in a developing country. If HIV came out of the jungle from monkeys, maybe the cure will come out of the jungle. One can always dream, right? It would be wonderfully poetic.
Hrm. Did you also envisioned that the research would be done on treehouses? With monkeys roped in to produce the report by typing furiously at the keyboard? Oh wait, they only produce the works of Shakespeare...
A cure coming from a developing country may sound poetic, but you don't need sound like an ignorant twit describing it...
-
Hrm. Did you also envisioned that the research would be done on treehouses? With monkeys roped in to produce the report by typing furiously at the keyboard? Oh wait, they only produce the works of Shakespeare...
A cure coming from a developing country may sound poetic, but you don't need sound like an ignorant twit describing it...
You sure did nail me. I teach many central African students at my university who come from families where every other adult has advanced degrees, so yes indeed, the only image in my silly twit brain, of research in the developing world, is Jungle Book style in treehouses with anthropomorphic Disney-like singing and dancing monkeys as lab assistants, and dangerous witch doctors lurking in the shadows!
-
You sure did nail me. I teach many central African students at my university who come from families where every other adult has advanced degrees, so yes indeed, the only image in my silly twit brain, of research in the developing world, is Jungle Book style in treehouses with anthropomorphic Disney-like singing and dancing monkeys as lab assistants, and dangerous witch doctors lurking in the shadows!
I didn't know teaching central African students gives one a free pass to caricature developing countries as they wish. Nevermind that the term 'developing country' is a very well defined term that encompasses countries that are not all stereotypically 'Jungle Book like'...
-
Sweetness give it a rest. I know my Spivak and my Said. You are not going to slander me as an unreconstructed colonialist, as if!
Read into your own reading of my words - tells you, about you.
I buy into the natural transfer theory and accordingly made reference to Central Africa in my little pipe dream that if HIV came from the bush or the jungle, it would simply be poetic if the cure "came from the jungle". A little anti-colonial pipe dream of mine. Hardly the reverse.
Now please stop calling people names and labels. I certainly did not, anywhere in this thread.
-
Sweetness give it a rest.
..
Now please stop calling people names and labels. I certainly did not, anywhere in this thread.
Neither did I :). No serious! I specifically avoided name calling. I'm sure you're not an ignorant twit but I thought I could just point out that your description about the people/landscape of developing countries are, at very the least, makes it sound like it came from one.
You can go on to pass your judgement about my insecurities as you wish but that's fine.
-
I didn't mention people at all. And theres lots of jungle in central africa.
And yeah, all the developing world is not jungle. DUH.
And it would be just as lovely if Egyptian scientists found the cure.
WTF Did you not say I sound like an ignorant twit? Ok so I guess now you're saying I sound like one but I'm not.
Well. I dunno. Maybe I assume people get the references. Or maybe I was speaking in tongues. Sorry I offended you.
-
WTF Did you not say I sound like an ignorant twit? Ok so I guess now you're saying I sound like one but I'm not.
Yes. I'm sure the sum of your existence is not just this one comment you made. And certainly my impression of you isn't just limited to what you said on that one post. So no. You're not one but on this occasion, you sound like one. Thats all I wanted to point out.
It may seem like a throw-away comment to you but for many of us in developing countries we STILL get people who ask us if we live in treehouses. Or worse! Come to our country, feels scammed by the bustling capital city, and say "We want to see the REAL Malaysia"....
-
Neither did I :). No serious! I specifically avoided name calling. I'm sure you're not an ignorant twit but I thought I could just point out that your description about the people/landscape of developing countries are, at very the least, makes it sound like it came from one.
You can go on to pass your judgement about my insecurities as you wish but that's fine.
Yellow,
We do not allow name calling on the forums. You could have made your point with the added insult.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Joe
-
Neither did I :). No serious! I specifically avoided name calling.
You didn't do a very good job of it.
A cure coming from a developing country may sound poetic, but you don't need sound like an ignorant twit describing it...
You were certainly pushing the envelope, and that envelope ended up a bit over the line. Don't do it again if you don't want a Time Out. OK? Yes, this is an official warning.
Ann
-
It would be wonderful if the Cure came from somewhere that Mecch had in mind , I liked the post , Within 10 Min's I had Nobel prizes being handed out to university professors from ??? would you like to suggest somewhere Mr Yellow Fever ?
-
Hmmm, Okay... As far as the cost of a cure if there was one, I would think that not giving it to those who could not afford it would be pretty dangerous and stupid IMO.. HIV being infectious is not like cancer, it can be spread deliberately as we already know, Keeping it from the "have nots" cause they can't afford it would be pretty irresponsible of governments to not step in and rid the world of an infectious disease if at all possible... I'm just saying
-
Oh Mr.Theyer.. thanks for that polio link, I didn't know that
-
Hmmm, Okay... As far as the cost of a cure if there was one, I would think that not giving it to those who could not afford it would be pretty dangerous and stupid IMO.. HIV being infectious is not like cancer, it can be spread deliberately as we already know, Keeping it from the "have nots" cause they can't afford it would be pretty irresponsible of governments to not step in and rid the world of an infectious disease if at all possible... I'm just saying
Of course that makes sense.
However people are cynical and afraid, because of the historical experience. Tri-therapy was on the market long before it was available in many countries, and the pharma companies who developed it argued tooth and nail for their intellectual property. Tritherapy is prevention. And stops people from dying. Humanitarian and moral arguments meant nothing for a long long long and deadly time.
-
Of course that makes sense.
However people are cynical and afraid, because of the historical experience. Tri-therapy was on the market long before it was available in many countries, and the pharma companies who developed it argued tooth and nail for their intellectual property. Tritherapy is prevention. And stops people from dying. Humanitarian and moral arguments meant nothing for a long long long and deadly time.
Forgive me for not knowing whats Tri-therapy, I'm assuming its like Atripla please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm new and want to learn as much as possible.. How long was it on the market before it was made available to folks who can't afford it?
-
Tri-therapy also known as combination therapy. In mecch,s use I think he is using Tri to mean 3 therefore 3 differant drugs each attacking HIV in a differant way . This was the successfull breakthrough that means people like me are still alive.
-
http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/guidelines/arv2013/15facts/en/
Here is place to start your knowledge base.
Tri-therapy, one of the older words for HAART, or ART.
I am not up on the specifics of the roll-out of HAART across the world. It really is a vast subject.
ART / HAART "scale up" happened throughout the 2000's and is still a challenge today.
I am on my cell but I promise I'll look for some links for you, and invite anyone else to chip in, as well. There was a war between capitalist pharma, humanitarian NGOs, developed world governments, Indian pharma not respecting copyright, other developing countries threatening 1st world pharma to buy or manufacture their own pirate copies, if "big pharma" didn't cut deals, the US under Bush (a good point of his presidency) really committing to finding a solution. Its very complex.
Millions died unnecessarily and millions may still die.
I would already point out to you that access to HAART is not a challenge just for the "developing" world. There are, again, wait lists in the USA. There are untold number of untreated people in countries like Russia, with little interest in diagnosing and treating many people believed to be living with HIV:
http://newsbeastlabs.thedailybeast.com/projects/death-by-indifference/
-
Further to the question -
UNAIDS had a campaign for "universal access by 2010" and obviously, failed.
The new campaign is "Treatment 2015" - as launched in 2011....
http://www.unaids.org/en/media/unaids/contentassets/documents/unaidspublication/2013/JC2484_treatment-2015_en.pdf
If I read correctly, not only is it rather a pipe dream to imagine universal access, UNAIDS already cooks the books as it define 80% !!! coverage of those in need as "universal access". Now that is not 80% of HIV+ people. That is 80% of people below 500CD4 (if its based on the future goal, or 350 CD4 the former guideline....
see page 8:
Public health effects of rapidly scaling up antiretroviral therapy HIV treatment is already profoundly affecting the epidemic in countries where it has been brought to scale. In South Africa, where HIV treatment coverage reached 83% in 2012 under WHO’s 2010 treatment guidelines (2,3) (initiating treatment at a CD4 cell count of 350 cells/mm3), scaling up treatment is estimated to have reduced the number of people newly infected with HIV by 17–32% in 2011 (4). In KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa, life expectancy in 2011 was 11.3 years greater than in 2003, when HIV treatment in the province began to be scaled up (5). In parts of KwaZulu-Natal where a substantial level of HIV treatment coverage (30–40%) had been achieved, the odds of acquiring HIV were 38% lower than in communities in which fewer than 10% of treatment-eligible individuals were receiving therapy (6).
Even greater health benefits will accrue with full implementation of WHO’s 2013 guidelines (7), which recommend initiating antiretroviral therapy earlier. Achieving and maintaining 80% global coverage under the 2013 guidelines would prevent more than 3 million additional AIDS related deaths and prevent an additional 3.5 million people from acquiring HIV infection through 2025, in comparison with the 2010 guidelines (3) (Figure 2).
You will want to see such sober tables as
"NEW TREATMENT GUIDELINES CAN AVERT MILLIONS OF AIDS-RELATED DEATHS"
-
Sorry, I did not read all of thread, but we discussed this matter here at one research event:
one thing to keep in mind: HIV drugs manufacturing costs are , in fact, very low.
The South African gvt procures NVP or EFV + TDF/3TC for as low as $100 per person/year !
This is their buying cost ... no dumping or subsidized
So when you pay $15.000 or so for Atripla, for example, 15000 minus 100 goes into someones pockets
Would it be possible to 'distribute' one year patient worth of drugs for a low cost ?
one year patient worth of drugs weights no more than 2 lbs. And if the efficient distribution/retail system of the US allows to ship water (Evian, perrier...) that weight the same, for as low as a few buck / bottle, we should be able to get reasonnably good drugs (at least for a vast majority of users) at a very low cost
the report on drug prices war is here
http://d2pd3b5abq75bb.cloudfront.net/2013/09/11/10/25/44/896/MSF_Access_UTW_16th_Edition_2013.pdf
ERic
-
Also not mentioned.
Even if cost wasn't a factor. If a cure consists of any of the so called stem cell transplant or what sangamo and some others are doing many places don't have the medical infrastructure to do it.
Hell, there are still many places that don't even do viral load testing because they don't have the laboratories or they are too expensive.
There is no way these places will be included in a cure. They will be religated to receive Atripla for the foreseeable future, which we hardly use anymore since it makes u crazy.
-
On the good news front, generic drugs are increasingly available in Europe. Efavirenz is is available generically and the fact that it was introduced as a generic forced, by law, the price of branded efavirenz to drop as well.
There are guidelines, however, to protect the patented combos... Such that a doctor or pharmacy has strict guidelines how and when a patient on a combo, such as Atripla, can be re-prescribed the components, which "breaks" the patented combo, back to generic components (but more pills) to lower the costs.
This is very complex.
-
The 80% thing is very depressing.
-
Well we're not epidemiologists or public health experts. I suppose it has something to do with how difficult it is to reach "hard to reach, hard to treat" groups. I'm pretty sure this applies to all countries, regardless of development.
I read a long article about this challenge in France, the other day.
What's the term - I dunno - when medicine makes contact but then the patient is lost to treatment - falls out - disappears...
-
I have read "fails to engage" "non compliant" "complex chaotic social issues" so many ways to say currently messed - up. Oh and i like and think this is the most respectful and accurate "Lost to service provider"
-
The clinic I attend has a team of social workers that run a program called start that follows up on patients that have not kept appointments . The goal is to reach out and see if they are being adherent to their meds, have moved on to other providers and also if there is something at the clinic that put them off that may can be addressed .
They have been able to identify people with substance abuse problems and or depression and mental illness and get them treatment for that as well .
-
The clinic I attend has a team of social workers that run a program called start that follows up on patients that have not kept appointments . The goal is to reach out and see if they are being adherent to their meds, have moved on to other providers and also if there is something at the clinic that put them off that may can be addressed .
They have been able to identify people with substance abuse problems and or depression and mental illness and get them treatment for that as well .
Ditto UK , lost count off the various organizations offering this type off service. Noticed at the clinic yesterday that one organization is pushing an AP for phones to help ,encourage compliance, which raised the ? for me that if you are together enough to have a smart phone, download the AP would you need it ?
To be honest I think the cake off money is unfairly cut and I would like some off this attention , instead off finding it in the Cancer Hospice area by accident. But then I am in a foul mood today and can barely stand myself let alone anybody else.
-
Ditto UK , lost count off the various organizations offering this type off service. Noticed at the clinic yesterday that one organization is pushing an AP for phones to help ,encourage compliance, which raised the ? for me that if you are together enough to have a smart phone, download the AP would you need it ?
To be honest I think the cake off money is unfairly cut and I would like some off this attention , instead off finding it in the Cancer Hospice area by accident. But then I am in a foul mood today and can barely stand myself let alone anybody else.
Aint nuthin worse than cancer aidsy cranky .
-
Aint nuthin worse than cancer aidsy cranky .
There is though you would be forgiven for thinking not if you got on the wrong side off me today.The Gods help any poor sod who makes the mistake off cold calling me today.Hate these days.
-
There is though you would be forgiven for thinking not if you got on the wrong side off me today.The Gods help any poor sod who makes the mistake off cold calling me today.Hate these days.
I will stay away from Skype as I have been duly warned ;) .
-
I believe that the greatest change to the drug industry, will occur when America fully moves to universal coverage. Wherever universal coverage exists, there are limits placed on the cost of drugs (and medical insurance). that have so far eluded Americans, because the politicians do not understand basic economics.
The drug companies do themselves no favors, when they claim high drug prices are necessary to offset development costs for failed drugs, when they spend more on advertising/promotion, than they do on drug development. The reasons they make so much money on drugs in America is because we allow it and we underwrite a large portion of worldwide drug development costs, through these increased prices.
Even when they complain about other countries manufacturing their drugs off patent, it's hard to feel sorry for them when they are recording record profits. With the exception of very few drugs, most drug manufacturing costs are rather low. The real cost comes in the promotion of those drugs, when many of them are only marginally increase their effectiveness, when compared to older drugs, but at what cost?
When America decides that we are going to universally provide health care, the drug and medical insurance industries are in for a very rude awakening. Political connections may slow the trend, but at some point, drugs and medical insurance will be brought in line, just like in dozens of other countries, because of simple economics.
Joe