The answer to Mr Staley's email to me asking if I am off is "yes, probably"

[newt]

The CSI thing, I really don't have a view. The producers should be whacked for choosing such a dumb storyline, but there you go, anyway people seem pretty smart on the glass/risk thing. Forum-wise its a bold and brave experiment.

it is more this:

CBS get copyright or their bit, S+S assume copyright of the rest of the forum, HIV-positive people who wrote the damn stuff don't.  It is possible to agree use of the material on the forums but leave the original copyright with the poster.  In terms of using quotes etc elsewhere I don't see most people would have a problem saying yes.  So I can see som S+S bod saying as s/he smiles "It has to be that way" Italian resuaurants, meatballs, bolt gun and kneecaps come to mind.  It's don't. It ain't for CBS for example.

It's really about respect, respect for the individual HIV+ voice.

Reading the Zuiker interview on POZ I can see an attractive proposition arising from Mr Z's (rather vain IMHO) statement in answer to the Q "What will you do with the content of the Forums?"

"I think about me publishing those and putting that on the marketplace and having the proceeds go back to a non-profit AIDS organization. Perhaps we can package these stories, sell them and have the proceeds go to Kaiser. It would be so cool, right? Like the day we made history. BOOM. And all of a sudden we’d be selling this book of stories of people living with HIV, with all the profits going to the foundation. That would be so cool. It also might make for a powerful forward written by myself."

So what's to stop our lives and experiences becoming a fundraisier for an AIDS not-for-profit without so much as a say so?

I consider us all suckered unless S + S give (A) an unqualified assurance that we will be asked before any of our stories (ex CSI forum) won't be used without permission outside POZ/AM, cos as things stand I think they think they can take and do what they want with the content.

And (B) do the decent thing and return copyright of posts to the original poster, but I'd settle for (A)

Suckered.

Think of the bigger picture eh? Awareness and all that shit. Respect first, big picture later.

Suckered

So unless the requested answer to A is offered, I am off

Suckered and disrespected.

So yes, I'm off probably

People who wanna be in touch PM me.

- matt

[Ann]

Matt,

CBS is NOT allowed to use any AIDSmeds forum content outside of the CSI forum. I asked this specific question of Peter yesterday, in anticipation of it being asked by another forum member.

I've also made mention of the fact that if CBS is going to donate profits from something that may result from use of forum material, that at least some of it should go to the people in this forum, such as through a donation to the AMG Grants committee.

Ann

[Razorbill]

What precautions are being taken to make sure they stick to the CSI forum and stay out of the others?  Also as non-HIV individuals would the CSI ticks not be allowed to attach to AM I infected, and Someone I love? forums?  The best one can do is steer clear of CSI forum.  Well clear.  I get too much support and enjoyment to dodge the whole site - although the thought has crossed my mind.

[Ann]

Peter will have to give you the ins and outs of it later. All I know is that they'd be open to having a lawsuit against them if they use content from the rest of the forums.

Don't think they'd risk that when they could easily ask whoever to contact them and strike a deal. That's my take.

Ann

[Oceanbeach]

I did watch the episode tonight and was kind of disapointed.  I did not buy into the glass thing.  A needle stick injury would have seemed far more realistic because Nursing has the highest loss incident rate for injuries for female employees in the United States.  Another show (ER) had a PA with HIV but, as in the CSI show tonight the actress playing the role did not leave a lasting impression on me as a person living with HIV.

As a contributor to these forums, I would be insulted if the CSI writing staff were allowed to use my words or experiences and get paid when I have to struggle each and every month (for 10 years) to pay bills and to depend upon Food Banks and other charities to cover my basic needs.  Thank you Ann for the clarification of the use of the CSI thread.

When the actor was discussing the possible side effects to HIV meds, they never mentioned the possibility of the actress shitting her pants in a public place... Personally, I have been on meds for over 10 years and have been humiliated many times over.  Until the scene where the beautiful CSI Agent shits herself in public and is not allowed on public transportation because of her smell, it is nothing but TV fiction.  Have the best day
Michael

[Peter Staley]

Matt -- you know damn well that CBS has absolutely NO RIGHTS outside the CSI forum.  Please don't start whipping up false fears in the regular forums, just because you don't like the decision I made to host the CSI forum.

Everyone has an easy out here if the CBS legal agreement scares you -- just ignore the CSI forum.

[AustinWesley]

I think the CSI forumn is an innovative idea that allows for discussion between some creative and talented writers and our community.   I understand people's concerns about privacy, but currently anyone on the internet can read anything on this site already so I don't see why people are concerned now.

If you aren't interested in the CSI forumn, don't participate!   For a lot of people who aren't able to leave their house for whatever circumstances I think this creative idea gives many a first time opportunity to participate in something and feel good about themselves. 

Would it be great if CSI could donate some proceeds to the HIV/AIDS cause?  Absolutely!   But, how great would it be if all of us could participate with our joint experiences to make a difference?














 

[penguin]

mr staley, you are either missing or avoiding the point...?

cbs, fine, they can't use anything outside of the csi forum. good, i should certainly hope not.

what is being asked here though, is for an assurance that poz.com/ s+s will not think "hmm, that Mr Z, he has a good fundraising idea there, with his packaging & selling (hiv+ people's) stories"... or something similar.

this may seem unimportant to some people.
to me it seems like a basic courtesy. these forums wouldn't be very impressive without the content people post in them, so i don't think some assurances about seeking permission is unreasonable.

kate

[Peter Staley]

Sorry, Kate -- you're right, I should have addressed that.  I think Zuiker's quote is pretty gross, for all the reasons others have stated.  If Smart+Strong ever considered such an idea (which they have NEVER considered in the past), I would fight it tooth and nail, then resign if I lost.

Sure, POZ primary focus has been telling the stories of people living with HIV, but we ask each of them first if they want their story told.  This has always been our practice.

Peter

[Lisa]

I agree that Zuiker was a bit over the top, but we do have to keep in mind that he/they(CBS) did at least approach the appropriate people and asked.
It still remains that anything you write in a public forum is still open to anyone who reads it. I can't imagine how many high school, and college papers have been written from fodder gained by reading this site.

[AIDS2HIV]

and to think i got instantly banned and labelled when i said this same thing....

furthermore, i urge everyone to check out the copyright laws, by law, these entitiies, only have right to the "collection" of all these posts. By law if they sell the copyright, you to, should recieve compensation for your part in the collection....furthermore, as an individual regardless of what smart and strong, or CBS or anyone say, as individuals, each of own personal copyrights, for your personal input. and regardless of what they post on thier disclaimer,etc. even they cant change that...

this being said, no one at my site gets sold out for anything, and should we decide to pursue a business venture contracts will be brought up, that all profit made, will go a charitible fund. that fund being our own personal foundation. this is why, at my site, there is a private secure place for positive people. and while i am here i may as well add my 2 cents once again, about the million aids march....i find it funny and very misleading, something marketed as a million AIDS march, trying to gain support in the name of overall health care. Sorry if i violated your rules here, those who really know me, know i wasnt one for personal "laws"..

i wonder how long i will be banned, or better yet, blatantly descriminated against for this post......

[poet]

First, I hope that Matt doesn't leave since I have absolutely relied on his scientific/medical posts to answer certain questions which we otherwise handle by attaching/linking articles without a 'live' comment on them. 

Second, as someone connected to an aids service organisation as a client/volunteer, I have sent certain threads from real people discussing real issues here to staff members because I thought that they brought across issues so well.  I have encouraged the harm reduction person to become a member if only so he, too, could read posts.  These are public forums and the information does need to get back to the public.

Third, as a writer, I would be the first to acknowledge that anyone I meet, anything which happens, anything I read can be and has been lifted from life and turned into, in my case, poetry.  By the time it is printed, life and imagination have mixed to the degree that it would take a surgical knife to separate the two.  This is how writers work.  The sense that things posted here are somehow confidential or private unless by request in a p.m. isn't true and never has been.  Win

[Ihavehope]

oh boy, i fear that neggies are gonna come here and start saying inappropriate things. I thought this was a site for those who wanted to get information about HIV or for those already infected with HIV. I am sure most people who will visit the CSI:NY forum will be people who want to learn more about this disease but I hope no bashers come. I am already nervous spilling all of my fears and experiences here but I know I am amognst people who share the same problems.

[Peter Staley]

oh boy, i fear that neggies are gonna come here and start saying inappropriate things. I thought this was a site for those who wanted to get information about HIV or for those already infected with HIV. I am sure most people who will visit the CSI:NY forum will be people who want to learn more about this disease but I hope no bashers come. I am already nervous spilling all of my fears and experiences here but I know I am amognst people who share the same problems.

IHAVE -- it looks like the "fans" are staying in the CSI forum for the most part.  But we share your concern, and are keeping a careful watch on things.  Please use the report to moderator link if you see any "bashers."

Thanks for giving me your feedback, and for being an active member of these forums.

[ACinKC]

Settle down guys.  We arent that important or interesting.  Think about it.  If they want ideas for characters what was preventing them from coming here anyway WITHOUT our knowledge and swiping ideas?

All this hub bub is about nothing.


Aids2HIV- Man, seriously why come in and flame bait like that.  You can state your opinions without jabbing at people and this site.  This was a shameless attempt to market your site to disgruntled members.  Thought you were above all that.

[AustinWesley]

I've got to agree with AK here.

I say let all the Drama Queens leave cause I frankly don't care.   I think a few people are watching too much coverage of Anna Nicole or something.   This ain't no half billion dollar baby.

Everyone could read your posts before even without signing on.   

The site will be here whether a few leave or not.   I'd bet 10 to 1 they'll all be back too!

[Ann]

I've got to agree with AK here.

I say let all the Drama Queens leave cause I frankly don't care.   I think a few people are watching too much coverage of Anna Nicole or something.   This ain't no half billiion dollar baby.

Everyone could read your posts before even without signing on.   

The site will be here whether a few leave or not.   I'd bet 10 to 1 they'll all be back too!

Wes,

You know, calling people "drama queens" isn't helpful. There are some members who are feeling exposed and vulnerable because of the CSI forum and the influx of visitors it brings. For some, this is the only available source of support and information they have.

Leave the name calling out of it!

Ann

[Miss Philicia]

I'm confused with this entire CSI topic.  I obviouslly missed something somewhere along the way.  I thought it was just a TV show... but oh-teh-drama.  Can someone summarize this for me or link me to another thread for further research?

[Peter Staley]

Read this thread:
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8963.0

[AustinWesley]

Well I call em as I see em! 

Sorry if I wasn't politically correct enough for ya!

[Ann]

Wes,

It's not a matter of being "politically correct". It's a matter of not resorting to name calling to get your point across. Do I really have to refer you to our posting guidelines and time out policy in the welcome thread? Just knock off the name calling. Consider yourself warned.

Ann

[newt]

This is not about the CBS/CSI NY hookup, which is an extremely interesting and brave experiment, never been done, TV and support forum link, I am interested to watch how it turns out (like I said earlier).*

And it's not really about Peter, I note his comment about defending tooth and nail etc above, and believe them.

It is about S+S giving an assurance they will ask the original HIV-positive poster if they use non-CSI forum stuff elsewhere, eg for a project with Viacom etc.  S+S is playing with the big media boys.  The potential for exciting offline high-profile projects is there.  And why not?  Many people would, I am sure, participate with enthusiasm.  But it seems a basic point of respect to ask if you's gonna use people's lives to inform this.

END

- matt

Now playing: bit of a strong wind, but four days on the Solent in a 3 master beckons 

* But the storyline is crap eh?

[AustinWesley]

Hmm,  ok well I suppose I could've phrased it differently.  I'm less paitient than normal since I'm nicotine deprived ; )

Anyways, I'm gona check out the link to the episode so I can participate in the CSI Forumn. 

And, just as I was about to reply Newt posted.

Hey Newt,

I agree that it'd be nice to have permission from the person who posted a story, but there isn't anything preventing anyone from reading and using the information here so it's a moot point!

Wesley

[Tucsonwoody]

Hey - since when does this apply? "We arent that important or interesting. " Ya mean the universe doesn't revolve around me like it always used to?
When did that happen..nobody told me, as usual

Oh well, guess that's life!

[Razorbill]

Well put.  They are playing with big media boys.  I'm sure they think they're smart enough not to get taken for a ride.  Not.

[Dachshund]

Having acquired the legal rights and protections of a person, the question arises-what kind of person is the corporation?

Michael Moore: I believe the mistake that a lot of people make when they think about corporations, is they think you know, corporations are like us. They think they have feelings, they have politics, they have belief systems, they really only have one thing, the bottom line-how to make as much money as they can in any given quarter. That's it.

All I really care about is my selfish need to know that Matt is around...I trust his judgement and knowledge about HIV above anyone. If and when the time comes, he will be the first person I turn to with my medical questions...or music.

[Razorbill]

Moore's assessment of corporate ethos could well be applied to these forums since yesterday.  Welcome to the machine.

[Queen Tokelove]

All I can say is interesting replies. I'm gonna do something new and be quiet on this one...

[lydgate]

The root of the issue, I think, is in paragraph five of Section 5 of the "Terms and Conditions":

"To enable Smart + Strong to use and publish your information that you choose to make publicly available on AIDSmeds.com in connection with your use of the Service ("User Information"), the User grants Smart + Strong a nonexclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicenseable (through multiple tiers) right (including all moral rights) and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, perform, prepare derivative works from, distribute, and display User Information (in whole or in part) and to incorporate it in other works, in any form, media or technology now known or later developed, for the full term of any rights that may exist in User Information."

This may be standard legalese but it is ALARMING. Bluntly put: I have zero control over my words, my life stories. Zero.

I had read the "Terms of Membership for these forums" before joining -- which is written in plain English. I admit I had not read the "terms of use" at the very bottom of the page. I wonder how many people have.

The link titled "your privacy" seems to be related mainly to the main POZ pages and in particular to POZ personals. It certainly doesn't cover any of the terms used in paragraph five of Section 5 in the "terms of use."

Peter, I read your reassurance about fighting tooth and nail etc. and that if you lost you'd resign. And of course I believe you. But: just for the moment, let's posit a worst-case scenario. S+S do get in bed with "the big media boys" and use their copyright to disseminate/market bits or chunks from forum posts in whatever form they choose. (Note that their control of all user "material" is a perpetual and irrevocable copyright.) You fight. You lose, you resign. Where does that leave the rest of us on these forums? Simply with your resignation?

I'm NOT trying to stoke fears; and as I've said, I'm positing a worse-case scenario in which a corporation decides to use the "material" of these forums in whatever way it wants. Nothing that is ethically disgraceful -- using forum members' words without their permission and even without their knowledge, and modify them if someone so decides -- might happen. It probably won't. Yet, the existence of that paragraph means that it could.

My question then: is it possible for paragrapgh five of Section 5 in "terms of use" to be rephrased? In the manner(s) suggested by Matt (newt)?

Perhaps you could also get responses from the current senior management of S+S and CDM Publishing? A declaration of current and future intent (which would not be legally binding, but still).

An unusually worried,
Jay

[AustinWesley]

I think the worst case scenario would be that no one here or others that need help wouldn't be able to find it because a few individuals are whether they realize it or not attempting to sabatoge the site!

[penguin]

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