Profiting from HIV

[ChaplinGuy]

This was an interesting read:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18074155/

I am not someone that thinks that drug companies are the Big Bad Enemy, and value the Research & Development investments that have gone into current and future HIV treatments. Still a bit tough to comprehend, though, when you step back and assign a number to it; you can't help but be frustrated at their profit margins.

[keyite]

I feel ambivalent about this too. It does seem an obscene amount of money but then developing drugs is an incredibly expensive and risky business. Lots of developments fail only after millions have already been spent - meaning the investment simply has to be written off (and a big part of why the large profit margin is necessary).

Bottom line, I fear, is that if we want better drugs then we have to allow it to be profitable for big pharma.

Take malaria: more than a million people die from it in Africa every year and yet drugs to treat it haven't changed in decades. Why not? Because it doesn't (yet) affect rich countries to any significant degree and it's therefore not seen as potentially lucrative enough to invest in.

[jack]

If you are frustrated at their profit margins I would advise you to buy stock in them. They have sucked big time till last few months,which is sorta of weird with the Dems talking as if they are gonna destroy the industry. Are they just saying that to buy votes from their base? Thats what the market thinks, I guess. I f+cked up and sold almost all my US pharma when Dems won. Stupid me. Did keep a little spg,jnj,and sny(which really sucks).
Instead of complaining about how much oil companies and drug companies are making,why not buy stock in them and share in their profits?? Why try and stop something that in the long run will make you more money than you will ever spend on their products?
I have never understood all the animosity towards oil companies. If you would have bought 100 share of exxon two years ago,you would have paid for your gasoline for the next ten years. They are creating wealth,get on board.
I feel like a fool for selling GILD too soon,especially since just about everyone with hiv is taking one of their products. I could have paid for most of my HIV expenses with those profits.

[Central79]

Hey

Yeah, this does seem pretty extreme. But it's good in one way because with a market this big, you'd be stupid as a CEO in big pharma to not want a bite of the cherry. Result? More drugs, better treatment, more convenience and more options for long-term survivors.

Of course it's always slightly repellant to see people making big bucks out of a fatal disease. But HIV isn't the only thing that kills people, or is profitable for the pharmaceuticals. And every drug currently used to combat HIV came out of R+D by big pharma. Nothing from non-profits, nothing from academia.

I guess the big downsides are a) paying for it, especially in poorer nations and b) where's the incentive to develop a cure?

M.

[jimw]

Here is an excerpt from an article regarding the 400% price increase in Norvir, which I believed occurred when Abbott realized that Norvir was being used as a booster for Reyataz when combined with Truvada (someone can correct me if I am wrong on that).  So, talk about Drug Company profiteering from HIV Drugs!!!  Jim

“The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is considering holding hearings to investigate the pricing of Abbott Laboratories' antiretroviral drug Norvir, an unnamed committee staffer said recently, The Hill reports. The staffer said that the committee -- which is chaired by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) -- has examined the issue during the current legislative session but that he could not say when the hearings would occur if the committee votes to proceed with them. Abbott spokesperson Melissa Brotz said that the company is "cooperating with the inquiry" (Mikhail, The Hill, 3/14). In December 2003, Abbott quadrupled the per-patient wholesale price of Norvir, which is known generically as ritonavir. Norvir is used primarily as a booster for other protease inhibitors, such as Bristol-Myers Squibb's Reyataz and Merck's Crixivan. The cost of Norvir increased from $51.30 for 30 100mg capsules to $257.10 for 30 100mg capsules, or by $5,000 more annually (Kaiser Daily HIV/AIDS Report, 1/3). Some lawmakers and HIV/AIDS advocates said that the price increase was unreasonable because Norvir was developed using federal funds, according to The Hill. Abbott said that the decision to increase the drug's price was intended to help the drugmaker continue its work in HIV/AIDS medications and other areas. Six House members -- including Reps. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), Vernon Ehlers (R-Mich.) and Jo Ann Emerson (R-Mo.) -- in April 2004 sent a letter to then House Committee on Energy and Commerce Chair Joe Barton (R-Tex.) asking that the committee investigate the issue. According to an unnamed staffer, Barton did not conduct any hearings in response to the letter.

[dixieman]

Well to let everyone know... majority of funding for cancer, hiv treatment etc... is from federal funding... don't let the big pharmaceuticals fool you... your tax dollars pay percentage wise for most research... so you are already an investor... oh and yes they do get to receive profits.... huge profits especially with our patent laws and making generic after so many years of production...

[jack]

just more good reasons to buy stocks in these companies. The government supports almost every business is some way(unfortunately) either through grants,tax policy, government contracts or something else.
many people buy homes because the government has a write off for mortgage payments and has changed tax policy so the first 500,000 or something like that is not taxed when you sell your primary. I didnt hear a single human asking the home builders to lower their prices or to share their profits with everyone the past ten years when they were making a fortune. Homes are just as important as many of these drugs.

[bimazek]

jack come on, it is ridiculous to expect sick and dying people, some of whom look like skeletons and freakish monsters because of meds, to buy stocks with money that many of them do not have, the idea of funding ones own hiv care, by investing is insane, yes in the last few years the stocks went up, but prices go down too , should you be asked to pay for the entire hospital infrastucture as an investor to be able to use it...

when you say..  " I didnt hear a single human asking the home builders to lower their prices "

their our millions of people in usa, tens of millions who have been protesting for lower housing prices

are they not human??

even if all the aids and hiv people put some of thier savings in biotech stocks that would not make a tiny blip in these companies

you say, " everyone the past ten years when they were making a fortune. Homes are just as important as many of these drugs."

everyone has not been making a fortune, you may have and what was the personal cost to you?

if housing was a shelter and not a speculative casino gamble pyramid type system where the ones that got in early get all the chips

perhaps if things were more stable, we wouldnt have 40k people getting hiv every year

you seem to ignore the fact that huge % of hiv comes from the intersection of drug addiction, sex addiction, homeless ness, economic hopelessness, and mental illness

what do you have against democrats?

it was the republicans that let this disease get out of control starting with reagan and bush sr. and the new bush

and nancy saying just say no

i am sure if it were not for demos influence the rep. would be letting millions die  (they just let 3 in co carolina die)

[jack]

I dont think I said anything negative about Dems in this post, but was probably thinking it.
I have heard no humans asking Home Builders to be put under government control or complain about their profits.
I did not make a fortune in real estate, I live in Texas. I am not asking the home builders or those people who made money on real estate to give up their profits or split them with me. That is what many are asking of pharma.

How did we get to "just say no"? The real truth is "just say no" does work. People have to take responsibility for their actions and have self discipline or pay the consequences. That is life. No political party can change that.
Since you took the conversation to just say no, I believe all drugs should be legal.

how did republicans cause HIV to increase? No political party has anything to do with anyone getting HIV. We all got it on our own. You have to take responsibility for your actions. You can't blame your infection on Ronald Reagan or W or anyone else. That is insane.

I am not saying that everyone can cover their drug or medical costs by investing in drug companies. Be careful with Biotech, they are very very very very risky. I am saying instead of sitting around and bitching about companies that are making a profit,maybe its not a bad idea to get on the train rather than stand in front of it and make some money.

[Matty the Damned]

how did republicans cause HIV to increase? No political party has anything to do with anyone getting HIV. We all got it on our own. You have to take responsibility for your actions. You can't blame your infection on Ronald Reagan or W or anyone else. That is insane.

Jakey,

How did the Republicans cause HIV to increase? By channelling much needed education and health funds into dumb-fuck Texas style abstinence first programmes, that's how. Programmes which presume that everyone has the enormous strength of character to resist the temptations of the flesh and just say no.

MtD

[jack]

Sorry Matty, you can't blame HIV infection on anyone but the individual. Texas style abstinence? wtf is that? I probably was infected prior to Reagan, so who should I blame? Jimmy Carter? Its my fucking fault,no one elses.

[Matty the Damned]

Sorry Matty, you can't blame HIV infection on anyone but the individual.

Oh balls Jakey.

Check out the Am I Infected forum. The vast majority of those fucktards are Americans and a scary number of them think that you can contract HIV from sniffing a stripper's panties.

And why? Because you and your conservative mates think that the best way to prevent AIDS is to promote an abstinence model.

Shit kids -- don't wear a condom, just resist your natural urges. Resist them just like Uncle Jack did.

MtD

[Miss Philicia]

rectal mucous from strippers' panties scares me

[jack]

Maybe thats good. just kidding. Funny, these kids must not be listening in school. My kids were taught how you get it years ago.  it was beat into their heads everyday at school before they were even going out on dates.
 You can lead a horse to water. If you live in the US and you dont know how you get HIV you are either not listening or your are an idiot. Look at all the people who smoke cigarettes. Should we spend more money informing them of the dangers of tobacco? I am not saying we should stop informing them,but once informed you are on your own. What do we need to do to protect these people from themselves?
At some fucking point people have to take responsibility.
Repeat over and over again. If I get HIV its my own fault. It is not any politicians fault. It is not any other person fault. It is my fault. Its my fault I got it even though I got it before it was known to public.

[Miss Philicia]

Well, as any gay man that lived in the 80's will probably tell you, it was fairly common consensus that if HIV had been infecting the straight population initially that Saint Ronald would have stepped up to the plate and made it more of a priority.  That's a bit of a no-brainer, and while I realize this is more of an accusation towards society's viewpoint of homosexuality in general, and certainly that many years ago, the fact still remains.

Of course, there is no way of really knowing that if he'd not won his first presidential election what Carter would have done in the same situation.  But hey, it is what it is... the man stayed practically mum on the issue.  Thanks Ronnie (who certainly knew plenty of homosexuals in Hollywood, so for me that makes it kind of extra icky).

[way.out.west]

Jack, we have a huge and complex problem here.  I just don’t think the solution is as simple as having everyone buy stock in drug companies.

The cost of HIV medication is presently between $18,000 and $24,000 per year depending on the drug combination prescribed.  Some of us are fortunate enough to have employers who offer prescription drug coverage, and in that case, we need only pay the deductible.  But 45,000,000 people in the U.S. have no health insurance at all.  Another 16,000,000 are underinsured, meaning they can’t afford the premiums so they buy reduced coverage hoping that they won’t get sick.  Those people won’t be buying HIV meds because they simply can’t afford them.  And if they can’t afford healthcare insurance, they surely cannot afford to buy drug company stock.
 
The reality is that the uninsured and underinsured delay treatment of minor health problems until they reach life-threatening proportion.  Ultimately, they end up at the hospital ER for expensive treatment of a situation (PCP, crypto, etc.) that could have easily been prevented by taking meds.  Of course, this treatment isn’t free - the taxpayers, including you, me and everyone else on these forums pay for it.  It doesn’t even end there.  I expect to retire before long, and Medicare (translation: the U.S. taxpayers – including your children) will be paying for my HIV drugs.

HIV drugs come at an enormous cost, and represent a huge opportunity for profit.  If the public perception is that these profits are too high, the drug companies risk having entire countries set the price they are willing to pay for HIV meds – and that results in lower profits to drug companies.  I believe this is already being done in some countries in South America.  Or consider that some companies in India, with the approval of the government, are beginning to manufacture HIV drugs without permission of the drug companies who developed them.  What happens to your drug company stock then?

We’re talking about peoples’ lives.  You can live without buying a home, but you cannot live without affordable medicine.

[jimw]

Jack, I agree with MtD

If it had been some other group other gays coming down with what we now know as AIDS we probably would not be where we are today.  The CDC reported the first case of AIDS in 1981 – yet, it took Regan over five years to even mention the word AIDS and over 6 years to mention the word AIDS in an official White House Statement/Speech.  So yes, I do blame the Republicans for the state of this Epidemic.  I also blame that idiot in the White House now, and the last Republican Congress who specified that only 20% of the Presidents Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief could be spent on prevention – and then they added a restriction that 1/3 of that money be spent on programs that promote abstinence until marriage.  We all know how successful Nancy Regan's "Just Say No" programs was with keeping teens off drugs - and the abstinence program is just the same "head in the sand" bull shit. 

Jim

[jack]

OK. We all know the insurance thing is screwed up and we will find a way to screw it up even more.
 I was commenting on the original post about being offended by Pharma profits. I am not offended. I think its great and it is foolish not to invest in great US companies.
Blaming Reagan for HIV is as moronic as blaming Bush for causing Hurricanes or Clinton because children dont consider blow jobs sex. As far as abstinence not working,it works for those who choose that route,so you are wrong. Life isnt fucking easy,you have to make tough choices and take responsibility for them. I have HIV because I made bad choices.
We need to take responsibility for our own actions. No politician forced any of us to get HIV.
I guess the difference is, I dont look to the government to solve my problems. I dont want them solving my problems, I will figure it out myself.
I seem to still be alive,even though medicine is unaffordable,and I still like having a home to live in.

[Miss Philicia]

Well, that's half the problem jack.  You seem to only look at everything through your own prism.

I find you a quite nice individual on a personal level, as we've PM'd with no problem and have some common ground and experience.  I don't dislike you in that manner, and others here have noted that same thing.  I do find many of your fundamental assumptions to be rather problematic.

[jimw]

Blaming Reagan for HIV is as moronic as blaming Bush for causing Hurricanes or Clinton because children don't consider blow jobs sex.

Jack,

First, I did not blame Regan or the Republican party for HIV - I blamed it for the state of the epidemic - there is a difference.  And I believe it is moronic to think that Regan, the Republican party that was in office when this epidemic first began back in the 80's, and yes, my favorite, W, do not share in the blame for the state of this epidemic. 

Second, I believe there are clinical studies that prove abstinence only programs do not work.  And even if these clinical studies do not exist, one only need look at the statistics on infection rates to see that it is not working. 

Finally, I do not blame anyone but myself for my infection.  I made the choices that got me infected and I have always accepted responsibility for my actions.

Jim

[frenchpat]

I was commenting on the original post about being offended by Pharma profits. I am not offended. I think its great and it is foolish not to invest in great US companies.
.
.
Instead of complaining about how much oil companies and drug companies are making,why not buy stock in them and share in their profits?? Why try and stop something that in the long run will make you more money than you will ever spend on their products?
They are creating wealth,get on board. I feel like a fool for selling GILD too soon,especially since just about everyone with hiv is taking one of their products. I could have paid for most of my HIV expenses with those profits.

Jack,

following this logic, we really should be happy everytime there is news that the epidemic is growing, because once we are all share holders, we will just be raking in more money whilst doing absolutely nothing else than sitting on our lipo-thin arses.

That companies reap the benefits of their research work and then some, to pay for the next research, is something I am not against if I want to be coherent with my choice to use their drugs. I have a problem though when companies like Abbott, to name one, resort to armtwisting politics with poorer governments who try to provide their populations with drugs they can afford. And the case of Thailand http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/1667_11709.shtml is typical in illustrating this thirst for the biggest profit. Profit that is then shared by...people like you.

Western companies, who make much of their money with westerners, could easily adopt a two tier policy when it comes to pricing and allow poorer countries either the right to produce their own versions of the meds or to sell the original at no profit. That would merely cause a dent in the huge profits they are making. They only resort to this when the publicity around their greedy politics exposes them, a point at which they quickly shift policy and discourse, so that they appear as warm people-loving entities.

Believe me, most of the hiv+ people in Thailand are too poor to buy medicine and lots still die in pain and solitude. When not dying, they struggle in their day to day life to have enough to feed their kids and send them to school. I doubt that any of them considers buying shares in your beloved companies in the near future.

Pat

PS: you can't eat money
PPS: In the case of Thailand I know what I am talking about as I have family there and visit often.


edited for typos

[budndallastx]

Western companies, who make much of their money with westerners, could easily adopt a two tier policy when it comes to pricing and allow poorer countries either the right to produce their own versions of the meds or to sell the original at no profit. That would merely cause a dent in the huge profits they are making. They only resort to this when the publicity around their greedy politics exposes them, a point at which they quickly shift policy and discourse, so that they appear as warm people-loving entities.

There already is a multi-tiered pricing structure in place but, unfortunately, the US is carrying most of the cost.  Most western countries (e.g. Canada) have price caps in place making it prohibitive for drug companies to make sufficient returns to fund future research.  Although drug companies are making profits they are reinvesting the profits for further research efforts.  There are abuses such as Abbott labs but every company i attempting to make the drugs they produce available through various means including funding drug trials, company programs, etc.  Sure, some will fall between the cracks since the system is not perfect.

Look at how far the science has evolved over the past 20 years.  We are now looking at HIV at the molecular level understanding the delicate intricacies of how HIV works and how individual DNA works.  This required an enormous amount of money which looking over the history of government funding of cancer and HIV could not provide.  The money had to come from somewhere. 

I am in total agreement the US Healthcare system needs some overhauling but part of the burden is the sheer number of lawsuits filed each and every day.  The diversion of resources (money) required to address those situations affect the money for research and the cost of the drug.  The wild thing is the only people who profit from that are the lawyers.  We all know HIV affects each of us differently and the meds we use don't always work the same in our bodies.  So do I sue a drug company because it didn't work for me but worked for you?

Bottom line, we live in a capitalistic society and profit is the only way to get this horrible disease cured then what other alternative is there ?

[Dachshund]

Maybe thats good. just kidding. Funny, these kids must not be listening in school. My kids were taught how you get it years ago.  it was beat into their heads everyday at school before they were even going out on dates.
 You can lead a horse to water. If you live in the US and you dont know how you get HIV you are either not listening or your are an idiot. Look at all the people who smoke cigarettes. Should we spend more money informing them of the dangers of tobacco? I am not saying we should stop informing them,but once informed you are on your own. What do we need to do to protect these people from themselves?
At some fucking point people have to take responsibility.
Repeat over and over again. If I get HIV its my own fault. It is not any politicians fault. It is not any other person fault. It is my fault. Its my fault I got it even though I got it before it was known to public.

I know you don't like to be confused by the facts, but here is the Bush administrations own report on the failure of the abstinence only program.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/13/abstinence-only-programs-have-failed/trackback/

[jimw]

This just in, like its breaking news!  Jim

“The launch of new drugs and an increase in the number of people diagnosed with HIV is set to make AIDS medicine a $10.6 billion market by 2015, according to a report on Thursday.

Drugmakers may be under pressure to cut prices in the developing world but selling HIV drugs in the West remains a lucrative and fast-growing business.”
Reuters Health, April 12, 2007

[bimazek]

by Larry Kramer   http://www.poz.com/articles/776_11492.shtml

Remarks on the occasion of the 20th Anniversary of ACT UP  NYC's LGBT Community Center
March 13, 2007

 Every single treatment against HIV is out there because of activists who forced these drugs out of the system, out of the labs, out of the pharmaceutical companies, out of the government, into the world. It is an achievement unlike any other in the history of the world. Hundreds of millions of people will be healthier because of us.

Ronald Reagan had made it very clear that he was “irrevocably opposed” to anything to do with homosexuality. It would be seven years into his reign before he even said the word “AIDS” out loud, by which time almost every gay man in the entire world who’d had sex with another man had been exposed to the virus. During this entire time his government issued not one single health warning, not one single word of caution. Who cares if a faggot dies. I believe that Ronald Reagan is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler. This is not hyperbole. This is fact.
     
These are just a few of the things ACT UP did to make the world pay attention: We invaded the offices of drug companies and scientific laboratories and chained ourselves to the desks of those in charge. We chained ourselves to the trucks trying to deliver a drug company’s products. We liberally poured buckets of fake blood in public places. We closed the tunnels and bridges of New York and San Francisco. Our Catholic kids stormed St. Patrick’s at Sunday Mass and spit out Cardinal O’Connor’s host. We tossed the ashes from dead bodies from their urns on to the White House lawn. We draped a gigantic condom over Jesse Helms’ house. We infiltrated the floor of the New York Stock Exchange for the first time in its history so we could confetti the place with flyers urging the brokers to “SELL WELLCOME.” We boarded ourselves up inside Burroughs-Wellcome, (now named GlaxoSmithKline), which owns AZT, in Research Triangle so they had to blast us out. We had regular demonstrations, Die-Ins we called them, at the Food and Drug Administration and the National Institutes of Health, at City Halls, at the White House, in the halls of Congress, at government buildings everywhere, starting with our first demonstration on Wall Street, where crowds of us lay flat on the ground with our arms crossed over our chests or holding cardboard tombstones until the cops had to cart us away by the vans-full. We had massive demonstrations at the FDA and the NIH. There was no important meeting anywhere that we did not invade, interrupt, and infiltrate. We threatened Bristol-Myers that if they did not distribute it immediately we would manufacture it ourselves and distribute a promising drug some San Francisco activists had stolen from its Canadian factory and had duplicated.   We utterly destroyed a Hoffmann-LaRoche luncheon when they delayed a decent drug’s release.

And Bush. 2500 of us actually tracked him down at his vacation home in Kennebunkport, Maine, which did not know what had hit it.

Not just reagan was and is a monster, bush jr. sr. but all republicans everywhere and ones back then and now,
it was all the republicans as a great ugly movement over the country, of greed, and profit at others expense, and tax cuts for themselves and corp. welfare for their giant corps., that have created the now

"Reagan pledged to veto any funding requests from Congress dealing with gay cancer or that he refused, year after year, to provide emergency funds to the NIH and CDC even though they foolishly kept submitting requests.  So what if only 29,000 people were dead by the time the Gipper even spoke the word AIDS in public?"

the lack of any kind of co-heirent health care system ... or even sane system...

Not just reagan  bush jr. sr. but all republicans everywhere, that helped him get elected, I know one gay republican who worked to get him into gov. office and what a disaster of a human he is, hiding and having only sex with marines cause he is so paranoid of disease, that he knows they are clean

it is the mindset of these self serving evil men, insiders, inside deals and trades, and lies...

denying others their sexuality

creating mortgage bubbles and housing bubbles that ignores the real housing needs of living human beings

the war like mania and paranoia that afflicts the republicans

always war profits always war

money for their uncreative cronies to make war

today i thought

yes the difference between iraq and vietnam is

the vietnamese were buddists and forgave and let go and moved on...
the iraqis are islamists and we have created an enemy that will be with us for 100 years

and

we could have cured aids and 5 other diseases with the money

but it had to go into cheneys friends pockets

into texas millionaire's pockets  ... texas disgusts me they seem to have no issue with making tons of money on WAR profiteering, and most of them would not even turn in thier evil company execs to stop it...

just say no is a stupid put your head in sand, hypocritical unscientific failure

and has killed another quarter million people

because stupid people want everyone to be like them

99% of rep people can do nothing beyond their self interest and vote that way, it is very depressing

then they have charity events to help the suffering who wouldnt be suffering if we all had fair health care

[bimazek]

there would be a cure NOW today for aids if 1/4 of the money for iraq,
went into research in the last 5 years!
top researchers have told me on the phone themselves that there is no money for hiv research since the war started and that they have had to try to keep labs going just on thier own

most of money for iraq, went into rich st8t halliburton type execs pockets,