Ferguson MO

[mecch]

One of the regrettable reasons I shouldn't have seen the video is that someone like me doesn't have the knowledge to evaluate what is just and unjust use of deadly force.
Ultimately its the review boards, and/or any jury to figure this stuff out.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/22/3474562/this-police-shooting-caught-on-tape-shocked-the-nation-but-experts-say-it-was-justified/

Videotaped Police Shooting Shocked The Nation, But These Experts Say It Was Justified

[Almost2late]

The police are justified in meeting deadly force with deadly force.. Although the guy was obviously not in his right mind, he did have a weapon and he was approaching them.. Three feet is much too close to allow someone with a knife to approach an officer.. It could have been handled differently but that really depends on the training these officers received and what is there policy on these situations.. Being a cop is not an easy job and they try to make it home in one piece.. those guys will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives.. Its a shame the guy was killed.

[tednlou2]

With two officers there, I don't understand why one couldn't have used his taser, while the other was prepared to shoot, if the taser didn't work.  It would be different, if the man had a gun. 

I also don't understand cuffing a dead man, instead of starting CPR. 

[Jeff G]

Im am not defending anyone because all the facts have not come out as of yet ... The cops pull up and have no way of knowing what kind of weapon the guy had . If I were a police officer I would not go into a situation like this with a taser drawn instead of a gun . The incident unfolded in 23 seconds and there was no time for discussion of a back up plan . Sadly this is a case of a mentally ill person who brought a knife to gun fight .

I wonder how many more cases like these is it going to take to get a meaningful discussion going on how first responders should handle these situations and I also wonder how many police officers will be killed because they are afraid to defend themselves. I have known a few police officers that were good cops and I know how some of them had allot of anxiety every day due to the high crime areas they were assigned to police . I have a first cousin who is a police chief in a small town and in the last year he had to shoot and kill a man he stopped when the guy shot at him through the back window of his car when he was approaching the vehicle.   

There have been many news reports in the last few years where family members have called the police because a family member was having a psychotic episode only to have their family member shot and killed and in many of these situations it was pretty clear the police could have retreated and waited the situation out instead of using deadly force .

[bocker3]

Im am not defending anyone because all the facts have not come out as of yet ... The cops pull up and have no way of knowing what kind of weapon the guy had . If I were a police officer I would not go into a situation like this with a taser drawn instead of a gun . The incident unfolded in 23 seconds and there was no time for discussion of a back up plan . Sadly this is a case of a mentally ill person who brought a knife to gun fight .

I wonder how many more cases like these is it going to take to get a meaningful discussion going on how first responders should handle these situations and I also wonder how many police officers will be killed because they are afraid to defend themselves. I have known a few police officers that were good cops and I know how some of them had allot of anxiety every day due to the high crime areas they were assigned to police . I have a first cousin who is a police chief in a small town and in the last year he had to shoot and kill a man he stopped when the guy shot at him through the back window of his car when he was approaching the vehicle.   

Exactly -- it is very easy to use hindsight and say someone should have done "this" or "that", but in the moment, the talking heads are NOT there.  I come from a family of cops - dad retired as a Police Commander in my home town, my older brother was a cop for 13 yrs, my step-brother is in his 20-something year as a cop. 
Are there bad cops -- sure, just like in any profession. 

There have been many news reports in the last few years where family members have called the police because a family member was having a psychotic episode only to have their family member shot and killed and in many of these situations it was pretty clear the police could have retreated and waited the situation out instead of using deadly force .

Yes -- until the suspect hurts/kills someone else (which can take a split-second) -- then it's all -- "why did the cops stand there and do nothing". 

I would NEVER want to be a cop - - they are often damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Mike

[Jeff G]

Ugh ... not sure if I am comfortable with bocker and I agreeing on something but since I'm a glass half full guy I will say its about damn time LOL .

We all know it, the issues that lead to many of these story's are layer upon layer of economic and social issues and unless those issues are addressed the tazer vs gun debate is worth having but is a band-aid solution at best .   

[Dachshund]

Open carry, wrong color.

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/hartmann-how-long-texas-changes-open-carry

[bocker3]

Ugh ... not sure if I am comfortable with bocker and I agreeing on something but since I'm a glass half full guy I will say its about damn time LOL .

The long range forecast for hell -- Frozen & continued cold..   

Actually, we've agreed on things before -- take Sid, for example, we both agree he's a great (and lucky) guy.....

Hugs,
M

[Jeff G]

The long range forecast for hell -- Frozen & continued cold..   

Actually, we've agreed on things before -- take Sid, for example, we both agree he's a great (and lucky) guy.....

Hugs,
M

I'm happy you see the humor in my comment . Sid is a very sweet man so if you believe in you get what you deserve in life you both have been lucky men indeed . 

[tednlou2]

Race will continue to be an issue in society and police.  In just recent weeks, we've seen a black man choked to death, over apparently selling cigs.  We saw a mentally ill, black grandmother beaten over and over again in the face. 

There is obviously a race element, as well as some bad officers, who would likely do the same things to white suspects.  And, there are many justified officers, where they had to make a quick decision.  I recently saw a video (I have tried to find it), where a white man was threatening officers in a parking lot.  He was very bold and could have opened fire at any time.  Instead of shooting the man, police spent a long time trying to reason with him.  He eventually was arrested.  I have seen many videos of a white person being reasoned with.  So, I can see why blacks and others would wonder why those police went way out of their way not to shoot, when he was a real threat.  I do think there is a bias, whether it is subconscious or not.  Perhaps they just have better training.   

Here is something I found about odds of being shot, depending on being white or black:

"Indeed, although police violence to a certain degree does cut across racial and demographic lines, the reality is, if you are black you are far more likely die at the hands of a police officer than you would if you are white. A 2007 investigation by ColorLines and the Chicago Reporter found for example that in ten major cities, there was a disproportionately high number of African-Americans among police shooting victims, particularly in New York, San Diego, and Las Vegas.

An investigation of the NAACP into police shootings in Oakland, California, found that out of 45 officer-involved shootings in the city between 2004 and 2008, 37 of those shot were black and none were white. Although one-third of the shootings resulted in fatalities and despite the fact that weapons were not found in 40 percent of cases, no officers were ever brought up on criminal charges."

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/22/is-police-brutality-color-blind/

Modified:

I forgot to add this video of an innocent black man getting pepper sprayed.  A white guy starts a fight, but it is the black guy, who gets pepper sprayed.  Many will say the officers may just not have known who the aggressor was.  Was there racial bias, by assuming the black man was the suspect?  I don't know, but these things add up.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/13/1321345/-White-guy-starts-fight-black-guy-gets-pepper-sprayed

[zach]

Cash raised for Mo. cop surpasses Brown donations

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/23/support-darren-wilson-rally/14495459/

[tednlou2]

Jon Stewart is back from vacation and I thought he did a good job discussing the whole situation.  I did not know Ferguson police had beaten an innocent black man and then charged him for cleaning the blood off their uniforms. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/jon-stewart-ferguson_n_5720622.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

[OneTampa]

In the midst of all this mess, this study was reported recently:

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/08/study-police-body-cams-reduce-use-of-force-claims-by-up-to-88-percent-106226.html

I find it curious given the video evidence of police killing black men that we see.

[poz91]

Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:

Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.

---------------------------------------

"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

[Jeff G]

Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:

Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.

---------------------------------------

"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

Are the layers peeled back yet ? ... no, they have not been and we still do not know all the details . Whether some people like it or not what went on there that day and afterwards became much more than something as simple as man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot. 

[tednlou2]

I think it is interesting the use of the word "robbed."  We usually hear that, when someone holds up a bank or store and demands cash.  When someone steals something, we usually hear the word, "shoplifted."  I've seen many stories of white folks shoplifting and even scuffling with a cashier or security person, who is trying to take away the beer, soda, or candy bar, or detain them for the police to be called.  But, they called it shoplifting.  Interesting, I think. 

[mecch]

1) Store management's lawyers denied that Mike Brown stole anything.
2) Previous to above 1) - there was a police report filed THAT DAY about a strong-armed robbery. So, who gave that info to the police?  Seems like with the brouhaha that followed the shooting death, store management backtracked - simply does not want to be a partner to this mess.
3) If you shoplift and then strong arm someone to get away with it, then it is robbery. That's the law. Good point however, how this is or isn't charged to different ethnicities.

Ted you seem to speak with anecdotal evidence - no stats. 

This story is far from simple.   

[zach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ98z4__H-g

all i'm saying, i've never been taken down by cop just walking down the street, no

[weasel]

are those crimes capital offenses? should police mete out the ultimate "justice" by killing people in the streets without a trial?

While all the past offenses might be some sort of evidence in a court of law, these policemen made their judgement to shoot NOT based on that information.

and on the other hand, do you see any connections between blacks, crime, poverty, lack of education, the militarization of police forces, and police overreach (brutality)?

     REALLY !

   We ARE talking about Missouri here !     

    BLACK has little to do with this issue of Police Brutality  and  killing in this state .

    Most of the MURDERERS I have met are WHITE , I  know way too many people that killed people .
    Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever imagined  that I would live in such a place that
   for the most part OVER LOOKS   MURDER !

     I was at the V. A. the other morning , the discussion  was that  SIX MEN HAD BEEN KILLED LAST WEEK
    , all in different  parts of Saint Louis County !!!! 
      Non of this has been on the local news ?   Maybe they are trying to quell the riots that  have only slowed but not stopped .
     As for color I believe the hate crimes in Memphis have been white peoples , but I'm sure that's another thread ?
     As for Zach's comment , I have been  hand-cuffed and jerked around by over  zealous  cops ! 
    For no reason other than being in place a cop thought I should not have been .  Held for two hours , then released to go about my business . 
     I stated before show me the REAL THUG PICTURES !    Even the news admits he had a long rap sheet ,
   that only two weeks before was sealed forever !   
    It is hard for me to over look the man STRONG ARMING A SMALL PERSON  to steal cigs !
   The facts speak for them selves .

                                                                                 Carl

   P.s.   I was just thinking this morning ; no matter how inconvenient  living 130 miles south of the city,
it's so much easier than dealing with problems that will never go away .     

[weasel]

Peel back all of the layers of rhetoric and all you have here is:

Man robs store, attacks cop, gets shot.

---------------------------------------

"That the attacker sustained a mortal wound is a matter that should have been considered by the deceased before he committed himself to the task he undertook." - 5th DCA, Stinson v. State (Fl)

    I could not agree more !
    That should of been the end of the story 

                                                                                       Carl

[tednlou2]

CNN aired video, taken in real time, of two contractors witnessing what happened.  The men are upset and saying Brown had his hands up, which backs up other witnesses.  I think they will be key in the investigation. 

Even if there was a scuffle, which to my knowledge has not even been confirmed, you cannot use deadly force, because your ego was hurt and especially when someone is surrendering.  The men say there was at least one shot, when Brown's back was turned. 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html?hpt=hp_t1