Author Topic: Battling HIV Naturally (Read 71763 times)

zach · « **Reply #50 on:** November 30, 2014, 01:47:33 pm »

thread has over 1000 hits... think about that

sorry jeff, premature passed hundreds of hits ago

edited... profile says he's 33, his posts say he tested positive in '92... when he had an apartment, partying with friends

how long does this play?

Jeff G · « **Reply #51 on:** November 30, 2014, 01:53:38 pm »

The OP has not broken any rules on this forum ... not a single one . Whats to keep me from banning one of you guys if I disagree with what you are saying ... I hear you guys and am aware my decision so far is not a popular one but I do take banning a member or deleting threads very seriously . I may be wrong but this is how I see as of now .

zach · « **Reply #52 on:** November 30, 2014, 01:56:47 pm »

ok, i'll back down

Andy Velez · « **Reply #53 on:** November 30, 2014, 02:25:38 pm »

Hi All,

It's good to leave room here for unpopular opinions (except when they disagree with me. smile)

I'm totally with Jeff on this. Let's save ammunion for the real enemies of which there are far too many.

Best to all at the end of the holiday weekend.
xo
Andy

Ptrk3 · « **Reply #54 on:** November 30, 2014, 02:32:11 pm »

Zach: don't back down (unless you mean with the business on "banning" a poster).

Keep on calling "bullshit" on a misleading post and state your reasons (which you have). That's the Miltonic way of dealing with bad ideas, refute them in order that those ideas are soundly rejected.

One of the most valuable things about a forum like this is the no-holds barred and open discussion of things: that is when truth emerges. Nothing or no one should be banned, except those who write things contrary to public policy (racial or sexual slur, for example) or violate civil decorum (just plain "jerks" who are rude and/or clearly dishonest about his or her participation in the forum, such as people posing as HIV positives or trolls extolling the virtue of Dr. Chimychanga and his HIV-healing totem that will cure you for $5: those people should be banned because they shed no light on a serious matter).

Keep up the good work, moderators! And keep up the robust discussion of ideas, even if unpopular.

drewm · « **Reply #55 on:** November 30, 2014, 03:26:30 pm »

H A A R T

Sean's crap does not add up. Goodbye.

mitch777 · « **Reply #56 on:** November 30, 2014, 03:56:40 pm »

Quote from: Jeff G on November 30, 2014, 01:40:30 pm

Also ... another member pointed out to me that by the OP's time line he was 11 years old when infected ... I have not read back to check it out yet but we shall see .

The OP's Reply #10 states that he was diagnosed in 1992. His age listed on his profile says he is 33. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but...

Anyway, I was wondering if he ever became UD while on meds. My guess is that if he did, he ain't no more.

Couldn't agree more with all of the advice already given.

zach · « **Reply #57 on:** November 30, 2014, 06:10:09 pm »

just when i thought i was out, they pulled me back in

for the record... i don't want anyone banned, i spent long enough as a carpenter to have learned; when you are the hammer, everything is a nail

i think enough trusted members have spoke out, our voice has been heard

if somebody wants to do some chinese herb, dafuq do i care... who am i to judge, i smoke an ounce a week. and i know what that flower is, i used to grow it, i knew it was used in medicinal tea.. admittedly never heard anything about it being used for hiv. first thing i did was research, and yeah i found some threads here on poz from years ago, even a member that is still around saying they've used it to good effect. maybe they still do, i notice that user hasn't chimed in. i'll respect that and leave him out of this

the rest of what i'd say violates the rules around here

freedom of speech, something i learned from another family i'm part of

it takes all colors to make a rainbow

the mods have spoken, even andy came down on it... i'm just some dude with teh aids

bocker3 · « **Reply #58 on:** November 30, 2014, 10:44:49 pm »

Quote from: Sean Castleton on November 28, 2014, 11:22:01 am

But keep in mind that the long term effects of any HAART meds are still unknown.

Well, the "long term effect" of not taking HAART, when poz is WELL KNOWN. DEATH in the vast majority of cases -- and a horrible, agonizing one to boot.

Perhaps, some day, my HAART will cause me to die of a heart attack - however, I'd have probably died long ago without it, so -- I'll take my chances.

BTW -- 9 years on HAART -- my cholesterol is the best it's been in my life (and I have a long family history of high cholesterol and have been on statins for close to 20 years).

Every "argument" you've given is sheer, unmitigated bullshit. If food could fight HIV, we would all know it and millions would not have died from this virus. Clearly, you are simply naive or, far more likely, a full of shit troll who isn't HIV+ but are somehow involved in some business looking to make money from this insanity.

I hold our moderators in the highest regard -- but I do wish they would piece your story and timeline together and realize that this simply can not be a real HIV positive person.

There are too many frightened and desperate people reading these forums. Some WILL TAKE THIS GARBAGE AS REAL, stick their heads in the sand and get very sick or die because of it.

Quote from: Ptrk3 on November 30, 2014, 01:36:54 pm

On the other hand, I would be very careful to quash any discussion like this, in order to get to the ultimate truth of the matter. As Milton pointed out in his seminal essay against the licensing of the press, the Areopagitica, all ideas should be expressed, no matter how noxious, in order that they are within the "marketplace of ideas," where the poor products (i.e., bad ideas) would not sell. It is far more dangerous, methinks, to hide these ideas.

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~milton/reading_room/areopagitica/text.shtml

Don't get me wrong. I do not believe that there is a natural cure or treatment for HIV/AIDS. If there were, there would be no HIV/AIDS left. We are all Big Pharma's bitches, now, to be sure, but let newbies use their critical thinking skills to shop the marketplace of ideas and find this truth out. A truth learned on one's own is better than a truth taught.

However, the LTS's here and those of us with the critical thinking skills to look at all the evidence, can guide the newbies to the ineffable truth: take your ART's and you will live! Take only herbs and spices and you will die (but you might taste good to the grave worms). The truth shall set you free and keep you well.

Sorry -- Milton's logic holds little water for me when the "truth learned" may be DEATH. Sometimes it is good to let folks trip over a curb, but we should grab them when they approach a cliff!

Mike

Jeff G · « **Reply #59 on:** November 30, 2014, 11:05:42 pm »

Quote from: bocker3 on November 30, 2014, 10:44:49 pm

Well, the "long term effect" of not taking HAART, when poz is WELL KNOWN. DEATH in the vast majority of cases -- and a horrible, agonizing one to boot.

Perhaps, some day, my HAART will cause me to die of a heart attack - however, I'd have probably died long ago without it, so -- I'll take my chances.

BTW -- 9 years on HAART -- my cholesterol is the best it's been in my life (and I have a long family history of high cholesterol and have been on statins for close to 20 years).

Every "argument" you've given is sheer, unmitigated bullshit. If food could fight HIV, we would all know it and millions would not have died from this virus. Clearly, you are simply naive or, far more likely, a full of shit troll who isn't HIV+ but are somehow involved in some business looking to make money from this insanity.

I hold our moderators in the highest regard -- but I do wish they would piece your story and timeline together and realize that this simply can not be a real HIV positive person.

There are too many frightened and desperate people reading these forums. Some WILL TAKE THIS GARBAGE AS REAL, stick their heads in the sand and get very sick or die because of it.

Sorry -- Milton's logic holds little water for me when the "truth learned" may be DEATH. Sometimes it is good to let folks trip over a curb, but we should grab them when they approach a cliff!

Mike

You have earned yourself a warning for flame bait and name calling . Please do not post in this thread again .

BubbaPat · « **Reply #60 on:** December 02, 2014, 05:54:00 pm »

Okay…
So I'm jumping in here as a hopeful of more holistic attitude about HIV and for the record…. I know it's not a replacement therapy.

In the end…no matter WHAT illness you have, it's all about healthy combinations. Good sleep, exercise, social activity and diet.

I think Sean that yes…for YOUR body, you may have hit on something that will HELP, not replace the pharmaceuticals.

I saw on the news the other day how a few hospitals have started offering services to look at a person from something other than a lab report. They will be looking at your health as a whole. Activity, diet, medications… everything.

So Jeff… I for one am glad you didn't take down the thread. It made for some very interesting and entertaining reading. I think, sadly, it also showed how some people can type something and it doesn't come across with the same jovial or sarcastic whit they had intended but came across simply mean.

Thanks for the entertainment and info (yes..some of which is either out of date or inaccurate.)

Plus…. why not add some garlic and bananas into a diet.

Bubba hugs all around…even to the 'not so nice' folks.

mecch · « **Reply #61 on:** December 02, 2014, 06:03:39 pm »

But. You ARE, Blanche, you are in that chair!
And the OP DID stop HAART to try bananas and garlic. And this is not what a hospital has in mind when stepping up to treat a hole person, not a lab report.

I had an osteopath treat the whole me in the 80s and it was great. Premo health plan in those years, everything and anything, covered. Those were the days, in the USA. Wasn't HIV+.

I changed my ID a few years ago when my first HIV ID didn't treat the whole me. My new one is very sophisticated and comprehensive.

Getting an MD to treat you as a complete person is nothing new.

mitch777 · « **Reply #62 on:** December 02, 2014, 07:47:51 pm »

Mecch, Bubba clearly stated that this was not a wise idea of the OP to stop his meds.

I agree with Bubba that this thread should not be shut down, at least for now, as it has been ONE against ALL on the topic. It becomes a learning tool. Anyone that would read this thread would see the futility of the OP's faulty thinking.

I only hope he eventually does if he is for real.

Getting back to the age of infection thing... what doctor would check for STD's from an 11 year old just because he had a boil on his neck? It doesn't make any sense to me.

BubbaPat · « **Reply #63 on:** December 03, 2014, 04:25:38 am »

THANK YOU mitch777!!!

It's nice when someone pays attention to what I've 'said' and not what they THINK I 'said'.

You don't realize how happy you just made me. It's been a rough day and that helped make it a bit better.

BIG BUBBA HUGS!!

mecch · « **Reply #64 on:** December 03, 2014, 04:58:53 am »

I didnt suggest locking the thread.
I was extending the discussion about treating the whole person. In my life, I have followed other treatments in addition to "western med and its big pharma" and have been content with some of them.

greenapple23 · « **Reply #65 on:** December 03, 2014, 08:04:41 am »

I think some people get the feeling that just because you are poz you can just take your daily Altripla and still smoke, drink alcohol, do drugs & party and still live a long and healthy life.... NO..... YOU MIGHT DIE FASTER THAN A POZ WHO IS ON MEDS but who EATS FRUITS AND VEGETABLES, GETS A GOOD NIGHT SLEEP, DRINK WATER, STAYS AWAY FROM EXCESS SUGAR , DOESNT DRINK ALCOHOL OR DO DRUGS, WHO EXERCISES, & TAKES A DAILY SUPPLEMENT.

This is also true for HIV negative people. The ones who live a hard life still end up dieing early than their counterparts who take good care of themselves. Its knowned that eating the right diet ,exercise , drinking water, good sleep leads to good health and a strong immune system. so i will definitely be incorporating some hollistic approach with my ARV to live long and healthy.

http://www.hivplusmag.com/just-diagnosed/2014/03/07/15-ways-live-be-100-when-you-have-hiv?page=full

Dachshund · « **Reply #66 on:** December 03, 2014, 08:33:25 am »

Yep, I guess you could do all that and maybe live a nice, long, life. Maybe, maybe, not. Do that without meds and it's a big, fat, not!

Almost2late · « **Reply #67 on:** December 03, 2014, 08:37:24 am »

Quote from: zach on November 30, 2014, 01:47:33 pm

thread has over 1000 hits... think about that

sorry jeff, premature passed hundreds of hits ago

edited... profile says he's 33, his posts say he tested positive in '92... when he had an apartment, partying with friends

how long does this play?

So this guy is probably an imposter and yet his thread has over 1000 hits... And yeah, your suppose to eat healthy, Duh who doesn't know that?... I guess it has entertainment value

mecch · « **Reply #68 on:** December 03, 2014, 04:48:38 pm »

Quote from: greenapple23 on December 03, 2014, 08:04:41 am

I think some people get the feeling that just because you are poz you can just take your daily Altripla and still smoke, drink alcohol, do drugs & party and still live a long and healthy life.... NO..... YOU MIGHT DIE FASTER THAN A POZ WHO IS ON MEDS but who EATS FRUITS AND VEGETABLES, GETS A GOOD NIGHT SLEEP, DRINK WATER, STAYS AWAY FROM EXCESS SUGAR , DOESNT DRINK ALCOHOL OR DO DRUGS, WHO EXERCISES, & TAKES A DAILY SUPPLEMENT.

This is also true for HIV negative people. The ones who live a hard life still end up dieing early than their counterparts who take good care of themselves. Its knowned that eating the right diet ,exercise , drinking water, good sleep leads to good health and a strong immune system. so i will definitely be incorporating some hollistic approach with my ARV to live long and healthy.

http://www.hivplusmag.com/just-diagnosed/2014/03/07/15-ways-live-be-100-when-you-have-hiv?page=full

Sweetie, haven't you heard? Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Life sans sugar, delicious animal fat now that you mention it, party drugs and alcohol. Well OK if its necessary for conditions like diabetes but there are ways to go on enjoying some of life pleasures until a ripe old age.

May I just add I know a fair number of very hard living people, personally, friends, who have made it past 70.

And there are famous examples:

http://mybandnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Kieth-Richards.jpeg

Sean Castleton · « **Reply #69 on:** December 04, 2014, 12:32:10 pm »

Quote from: Jeff G on November 30, 2014, 12:43:59 pm

I'm tempted to just remove Sean's post that link to junk science and keep him as a member so we can offer support when he gets sick but so far what he is offering is easy to ignore its so ridiculous . I personally think its obvious that he is here to be provocative and push an agenda and not here seeking support . I also think that many people do get taken in by snake oil salesman so threads like this are a good reminder to new members and many of the others that come here to read and learn that they must beware .

I have to remind myself that what seems silly or absurd to me is something real to the gullible or people looking for an easy way out, if not for that I would file this whole thread under whatever and move on without a comment .

Hi Jeff,

Five months and counting as of today and healthier than ever on holistic medicines. I went in for lab work Monday and will get back to you with the results soon.

Take care, Sean.

Jeff G · « **Reply #70 on:** December 04, 2014, 12:35:44 pm »

Quote from: Sean Castleton on December 04, 2014, 12:32:10 pm

Hi Jeff,

Five months and counting as of today and healthier than ever on holistic medicines. I went in for lab work Monday and will get back to you with the results soon.

Take care, Sean.

You are not being truthful . Only HARRT will save you life if you have HIV .

I think most will agree I have been more than fair with you up till now and was waiting for you to come back and clear a few things up . Please address the discrepancy in your story about a bottom boy of 11 with boil on his head was diagnosed with HIV, its not adding up ... You are here making impossible claims and we will not allow that so come back and address this or I see no reason to waste another moment of the forums time on you .

Sean Castleton · « **Reply #71 on:** December 06, 2014, 11:13:28 am »

Quote from: zach on November 30, 2014, 01:47:33 pm

thread has over 1000 hits... think about that

sorry jeff, premature passed hundreds of hits ago

edited... profile says he's 33, his posts say he tested positive in '92... when he had an apartment, partying with friends

how long does this play?

Ah correction, I'm 43 Zach. And besides, I don't see how a person's age has anything to do with their credibility?

Almost2late · « **Reply #72 on:** December 06, 2014, 11:25:41 am »

Quote from: Sean Castleton on December 06, 2014, 11:13:28 am

Ah correction, I'm 43 Zach. And besides, I don't see how a person's age has anything to do with their credibility?

It has plenty to do with credibility.. As zach stated your profile says your 33, that would mean you were infected when you were 11 and living on your own.. There are some silly people who like to pretend they're poz and disrupt the forum with BS.. It's not illogical for us to suspect that you may be one of them.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #73 on:** December 06, 2014, 11:44:39 am »

It's obvious his profile was a typo, because in an actual post he did previously state he was 43.

buginme2 · « **Reply #74 on:** December 06, 2014, 12:21:23 pm »

Why the hate? This guy didn't tell anyone to stop taking their meds.

My take.

1. Natural components can compliment your hiv therapy.

2. I personally believe exercise is key.

3. There is a difference between age related conditions such as heart disease, diabetes, cancer which benefit from natural remedies and exercise than infectious diseases. All the bananas and garlic won't kill a raging infection. That's common sense.

4. Find a program that you like and are comfortable with and get your medical team on board. For me, I workout daily,I eat healthy, I don't take any supplements, I take my hiv meds, I work with a therapist for my mind and spirit, smoke the occasional joint for my mind body and spirit.

5. Live right, exercise, laugh, be happy, take your meds, eat right, have a lot of sex, enjoy yourself.

Jeff G · « **Reply #75 on:** December 06, 2014, 12:26:08 pm »

There is no hate, far from it . People have taken time to remind the OP that there are no natural ways to control HIV because they care and do not wish him to get sick and die.

Almost2late · « **Reply #76 on:** December 06, 2014, 03:47:24 pm »

I don't hate Sean, not at all.. I actually find the healthy eating and exercising good advise.. But, I don't believe Sean, so I'll no longer post in this thread to keep peace with other members.. From the old threads..
Heavyweight Champion Tommy Morrison stopped taking his meds..
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=9418.msg115790#msg115790
Heavyweight Champion Tommy Morrison died..
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=50298.msg603808#msg603808
Good luck Sean

ChavinKnight · « **Reply #77 on:** January 03, 2015, 05:34:00 pm »

I must weigh in here. . . . I am a (blessed and fortunate) converted dissident. I tested positive anonymously through the mail in the summer many years ago; looking back, what I thought was a horrible reaction to multiple vaccines was seroconversion. I must have been infected sometime in February of that year. I remember hanging up the phone, looking out the window of my garden apartment in a large city, the rain pouring down in sheets, and thinking to myself "the only thing that is different is now you know." I was waiting for a car service to take me to the airport. I went on with my life.

I refused to believe that HIV was harmful, but I began seeking something. It was a turning point in my life and coincided with the beginning of my spiritual awakening. A massive awakening to be sure. I worked with multiple shamans, with and without plant medicines. I began taking acupuncture and all sorts of rainforest herbs and Chinese medicine. I went to sweat lodge ceremonies. I did not go to a doctor until two years after I learned that I was positive, and only because I heard the "instruction" from a casual hook-up. He was the conduit for a communication that I needed to hear.

I told the doctor up front that I did not want any of his treatment; I only wanted him to monitor me and keep me comfortable if it came to that. He was very angry and said that if my t-cells dropped below 300, I could get deathly sick overnight, I would wind up in the hospital, and I would die a slow and painful death. He said that if I wanted to do this, there was nothing that he could do to stop me, but that I needed to know what would happen to me. He then said that I needed to "get over" my fear of medication, left the room, and slammed the door.

When I returned for results (this was the first time that I had ever had viral load and cd4 count measured, and was two years after infection), my vl was around 200 copies, not thousand, and my cd4 was above 500. His perspective was that my body was controlling the virus; my perspective was that prayer and plant medicine and sweat lodge were keeping me healthy. He said that this was good news and that I did not need treatment now; I said to myself that I can do this, and I continued my treatment. I told my doctor that I would get my own treatment in line with my beliefs, but that I would count on him to keep checking to be sure that it was working for me. It never occurred to me that I would go on HAART. Half the time I was undetectable. I even experienced an increase in cd4 count of about 150. My % was almost always in the 30's; I think once it was 29.8. My doctor and I argued about why this was happening; I said that it was alternative medicine. He said that it was genetic and that I had ancestors who survived the plague. Now I say can say that it was/is both. I only had a viral load of 120 when I started treatment, and a cd4 count of 585, after 9 years of no treatment and no illness. I went undetectable in 4 weeks on HAART. Incidentally, I discontinued alternative treatment for over a year before starting HAART (for reasons that are not important), and I had a decline of cd4 count of 75 to 100.

Prior to starting treatment, I met my partner. His doctor felt it wise for us to both be on treatment. I initially resisted this, but eventually let myself be convinced to accept the treatment, and I have fully adhered to it. I allowed myself to accept that my partner could be at some sort of risk if I were not undetectable also. I do not debate this within myself at this point, for it has no relevance. However, I am clear that I would still not be on treatment if I were not with my partner. I guess I needed a reason to be on treatment. Now I understand that I do not want my family and friends to witness me dying an ugly and painful death. I believe that I have an obligation to spare people that vicarious suffering if I possibly can. I still believe that if I continued the path that I was on, I would have been able to remain well for many years without HAART. Is this true, or is it simply my belief? The true answer is that no one can say; my current doctor is very respectful of my beliefs and said to me that he cannot say either way. He is the only doctor that I have ever had that has shown me that respect and given an honest and reasonable answer. All of the others dismissed and denied, and frankly, that is just as unsavory as what the dissidents say. It also did nothing to foster a collaborative treatment relationship. People are more likely to adhere to a treatment when they have what they perceive to be a respectful, caring relationship with their physician.

I cannot and will not recommend what I was doing to anyone; I will not speak or in any way otherwise reveal the specifics. Most people would not have the strength or motivation to endure what I endured. My first doctor finally accepted my path and told me that he could not condone what I was doing, but that it seemed to be working for me. It was clear that he did not want to discuss it, and so I respected that by not bringing it up, while still keeping regular appointments and doing what else I could to take care of myself. That was our seemingly agreed upon compromise that was never really talked about in depth.

I believe that there are ways for people to remain healthy without necessarily jumping into conventional treatment; however, if a person chooses that route, then they still need monitoring and follow-up. It is not enough to espouse alternative treatment, insist that it is 100% effective and therefore requires no evidence of effectiveness. One does not get to have it both ways here. Understand that the time may (most will say "will") come when alternative treatment must be discontinued in favor of standard conventional treatment.

I was silent about my choice for a long time. I may have had the lack of disease progression that I have had even without my journey into alternative treatment, or I may have sickened and died within that first two years in the absence of it. Conventional science and medical practice will dismiss me. Although I accept conventional treatment now, this in no way changes my understanding of my experience of my condition. I do not accept that it would or could be the same for all people subjected to the same alternative treatment, and I would never suggest that a person discontinue treatment in favor of my (or any other) alternative treatment.

I think that people come looking for reassurance, on both sides. We do not do ourselves or each other a service by attacking. Denial comes from overwhelming fear and anxiety. When you attack the denial, you increase it and that is dangerous. I am not here to save anyone from themselves. I respect the right of people to refuse treatment or pursue other treatment. However, the vast majority of people should be on HAART, and if not on HAART, then they should be in primary care and be monitored regularly. If they are not ready to accept conventional treatment, then give them space and be patient. The situation is serious, but it is not an acute emergency, at least (for most people) initially. We cannot make a person come around by forcing the issue. On the contrary, doing so is likely to drive a person further away.

Denial has killed many an alcoholic, drug addict, and smoker, and so, it will also continue to kill many a person with HIV. Has arguing with or attacking a meth addict ever made them give up their sickness? I am aware of no case where this is so..... There is a reason that education alone does not make a person give up an addiction. Whether harmful misinformation is presented here (or anywhere else) by Sean (or anyone else), people who are looking for reasons to deny will find them. I empathize with the place on the path that Sean and similar countless others are on, primarily because I have been there. Fortunately, I have had physicians that were willing to dialogue with me, even though we were talking from opposite sides of a river, and fortunately, I was not a rapid or even average progresser. The question of whether I was an "elite suppressor" was raised; I have to tell you that I found that question/discussion offensive and disrespectful of my spiritual beliefs.

And with all of this said, I am at a loss as to how to help people come around and accept the benefits of HAART.

mecch · « **Reply #78 on:** January 03, 2015, 05:56:42 pm »

Sounds to me that you didn't need to be on treatment when you started.

You were following you path and for whatever reason your cd4 was ok and your vl was negligible. Your partner's doctor was wrong to say somehow you being on treatment was necessary for him. Huh? Is this the re-infection intox? And with all your journeys and wisdom, you fell for that?

In fact, its not beside the point why you went on treatment. You are obfuscating.

It seems to be that really you believe that treatment is ultimately necessary for you, you alone, to avoid your death from HIV caused illnesses.... Not because your treated partner needed you to be on it.

As you said, plenty of people followed similar journey's as yours. Ones I knew in 80's and 90s who did so, cause there was no hope from medicine, are dead.

Your first doctor was probably correct, you won the genetic crapshoot to be a very slow progressor. I hear that you don't believe that, but I do, and so just putting that out there to other readers. That's rational explanation. Deduced from ALL the millions who died trying other things, and didn't have a strong response to get to the HAART era.

mecch · « **Reply #79 on:** January 03, 2015, 06:11:33 pm »

HIV is a virus. Its not a metaphor for anything nor is the treatment for HIV about much besides access to medicine (obligatory) and ordinarily "healthy" lifestyle - diet, exercise, emotions, etc.

People get nasty flus riding the wrong public bus on the wrong day. Viruses and bacterias spread - they are not metaphors. We don't get sick with them for nebulous metaphorical or moral reasons. We get treatment, whenever, wherever possible and move on and make do. That's fucking it.

I am not going to attack this poster rather I am simply putting in my two cents that I think this sort of thinking is self-centered.

Its like the person in the other thread in a sero-discordant relation who just had a child. How wonderful. A couple that followed SCIENCE down to the last letter, got treatment, had the whole thing monitored, and science said ahead of time this was a perfectly expectable outcome, an HIV negative baby. So then they thank GOD for the blessing.

Fine, that's one's right to have beliefs. But just cover your bases and do what doctors and research says is the best thing to do at the appropriate time. People make big mysteries out of things that are often cut in dry, in my world view. At least.

Bless god, thank the shamens, etc etc etc, I am actually for this, but pulease don't anyone go out of their way pursuing labourious or possibly dangerous therapies that have nothing proven to help with doing well with an HIV infection.

I'm old enough to be offended for the people who died when when there was no effective treatment.

Most people have a lot of fish to fry. Family obligations, jobs, projects, etc. Always do the affordable and practicable and proven medical path as a priority. Geez its hard enough for most of the world to get access to doctors and treatments and THAT is what is OBLIGATORY to fight HIV. Not shamens and potions and meditation and spiritual journey. None of that obligatory.

As my grammy would say, Jesus H. Christ!

mitch777 · « **Reply #80 on:** January 03, 2015, 06:27:24 pm »

Great posts Mecch.

What I don't understand is this quote from Chavin:
"The question of whether I was an "elite suppressor" was raised; I have to tell you that I found that question/discussion offensive and disrespectful of my spiritual beliefs."

Why take offense and why is it disrespectful? Faith in your own beliefs doesn't have to disregard science IMHO.

In any case, I'm glad you seem to be able to balance both now, I think?

mecch · « **Reply #81 on:** January 03, 2015, 07:35:12 pm »

When I was asking the big questions as a young man the physicist Hans Bethe told me that many of his peers (huge brained physicists and scientists) get a tiny bit religious and spiritual in their elder years, covering the bases... So you know, solving the mysteries of life through science for decades, but not opposed in their old age to getting their last rites, just in case....

ChavinKnight · « **Reply #82 on:** January 03, 2015, 09:17:47 pm »

Meech,

I don't think that you grasped what I said, and your response to my story is why you will never reach people like Sean, which was the point in the first place. I am not saying that I will reach him (them) either, but I believe that the odds are a little more in my favor, because I understand the conflict, and I'm curious about his/their thinking. I respect, even when I may not agree, and I don't try to force fact or evidence or studies down anyone's throat.

Gratitude and humility certainly never hurt anyone, and it is not a case of being grateful and praying and getting last rites "just in case." I think that tends to fall on deaf ears, precisely because it is lacking in sincerity.

You say that you won't attack the poster, but his (my) thinking is self-centered. On the contrary, my view of the world and my decision to go on treatment is/was anything but self-centered. The hostility and sarcasm in your response is not disguised, and yes, it is an attack. I never said anything from my past was obligatory for the control of HIV. As Mitch pointed out, faith in my beliefs does not have to disregard science, but so often science disregards faith, with an unmistakable arrogance. It is a bit of a double-standard you see, and unfortunately, it is that blindness that I believe is at the root of the final human drama unfolding before us. The human species is committing collective suicide, and the masses are oblivious to it.

Your world view has validity, but it is not the only validity, nor is it necessarily the most valid. That is concrete thinking and a delusion if ever there was one.

I'll leave it at that and wish you well, brother. May you find peace and may it be with you always.

mecch · « **Reply #83 on:** January 04, 2015, 07:22:53 am »

You said you stopped your holistic treatment to take HAART and did so for your family and your partner. Yes! that was not self-centered! What i labeled self-centered is your holistic treatment and your view that it kept your HIV infection in check. That was all self-defined. You are posting supposedly to give support to the OP Sean, who has decided, in a self-centered world view, to do a very poorly advised treatment interruption to pursue some diet that is going to keep HIV in stasis. These are self-centered rationales and ways of looking at the world.

We are old timers, been around to see this happen literally before our eyes - dozens of times - our dying loved ones trying all sorts of things and nothing worked and getting very sick and lingering through pain and suffering to die.

So you both have your self-identified paths - nobody is stopping you - but you aren't particularly courageous - spiritually or however - doing so in this day and age when there is the back up plan - the medicine HAART that works.

Sean is in a riskier situation than you Chavin... You started the HAART - your "heart" isn't in it, but its good that you did, because the history of the epidemic proves its the right decision.

Sean's rationale shouldn't be supported. Sean the person, yes, of course, but we can call out navel-gazing emotionally- or psychologically- based decisions....

You missed the point of my post about Hans Bethe. The point is, there are highly rational people who spend their careers thinking quite tightly in relation to other highly rational people, scientists, at very high levels and yes, they can have a spirituality. So the point is science can admit some spirituality. Spirituality alone never ever ever ever ever EVAH saved anyone we know from a progressing HIV infection. Science did.

My taking HAART is obligatory and is so aside from or despite whatever evils science is foisting on humanity... Most of the scientists I know are not arrogant about humanity. I suspect your beef is probably with capital and capitalists and I wholeheartedly agree, but we got to bring home the bacon, right? I am thankful for the gifts science brings me (as leatherman explains above - yes there are plenty of us who are grateful when we take our "big-pharma" pills), and do my little bit against science going wrong. (?) Hans Bethe fought long and hard against nuclear weapon proliferation, you know. And we make our compromises with capitalism, but try not participate too much in its excesses...

zach · « **Reply #84 on:** January 04, 2015, 08:58:13 am »

2772 views

no good will ever come from this thread

mecch · « **Reply #85 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:41:08 am »

My opinion is that the good take away is that HIV+ people with ambiguous relationships to being HIV+ or its treatment, keep in mind to always stay in observation with MDs. Doctors.
I am glad Sean has decided to keep seeing docs and getting labs during this treatment interruption.
Its good that Chavin met that person who told him to pull his head out of the sand, 2 years after diagnosis, and go see a doctor.
We can all have our spirituality and I for one very much support all sort of "alternative" health practices - when they are affordable and do no harm, for sure.
Whats not helpful is kinda sorta saying that sweat lodges and shamanistic work keeps an HIV infection from progressing, or that banana peptides or whatever are going to keep a suppressed viral load from waking up.
Finally what is important is that people realise that self-experimentation and self-evaluation can sometimes be helpful but also can be disastrous, we need experts and investigation of whats going on by experts. We have effective treatment available and while we can look the gift horse in the mouth, let's not refuse the gift as its going to take us further in life.

I bothered posting in this thread out of memory for all the people who didn't have the historical timing to get HAART, or lived in denialist cultures or with denialist mentalities and were murdered by politicians and charlatans.

Jeff G · « **Reply #86 on:** January 04, 2015, 09:58:42 am »

Just while mecch was posting I had to ban a spammer and delete 4 post that was posted all in less than a minute . The person was spamming for a fake HIV cures and make no mistake there are people out there who will buy them and be harmed by them . I am happy and unapologetic that we are one bright spot on the internet where you can go and get simple, easy to understand information on how to survive HIV. I struggled with what to do when people objected to this thread but I was convinced it has great value and still feel the same way .

Every time someone resurrects this thread it's another opportunity to remind people that snake oil is sold by snakes .

Lorenzopier · « **Reply #87 on:** January 20, 2015, 01:37:06 am »

Hello Seth i too have pursued the road that you are on and have spent in the range of $15,000 over a ten year period in the pursuit of delaying disease progression naturally, however the results proved to be a bust in this context. Although there only appears to be two documented studies showing a very small delay in cd4 progression through use of nutraceuticals, basically they amounted to being clinically insignificant. The advice that many of the members here are sharing is very valuable because some of them have been down this road as well. Although i will always be heavily involved with the use of them to counter some of the negative imbalances produced as a result of being poz for 23 years. I also use them to counter most of the side effects that i personally get from being on HAART. I use them to counter the following conditions due to hiv or HAART: neurocognitive decline, high cholesterol, small intestine decline, weight loss, depression, decreased appetite, lowered libido, hiv inflammation, eczema, bone loss, fatigue. There are many well documented studies that have scientifically shown that the nutraceuticals can be beneficial for these conditions and they provide me a better quality of life by controlling these conditions.

NY2011 · « **Reply #88 on:** January 21, 2015, 01:29:15 am »

what about a regimen that includes your bananas along with meds? you can also do something like water with fresh lemon, cayenne pepper, turmeric and raw honey every morning to cleanse the liver. perhaps even a heavy vitamin D supplement to ward off cancer. and lots of vegetables. and a cup of blueberries each day. watermelon and figs to keep the body alkaline. brazil nuts for selenium. i can go on and on, but the point I'm making is that you should DEFINITELY keep eating a healthy diet, and should take advantage of life saving meds with the advice of doctors.

one more thing: beans cause inflammation so I'd cut that out of your diet. inflammation is likely the culprit of many health problems.

Lorenzopier · « **Reply #89 on:** January 29, 2015, 03:52:26 am »

For individuals who for whatever reason cannot access AVR or HAART this study suggests a very slight delay in disease progression.
http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20131126/multivitamins-may-help-fight-hiv-progression-study-suggests

mecch · « **Reply #90 on:** January 29, 2015, 04:03:50 am »

Quote from: Lorenzopier on January 29, 2015, 03:52:26 am

For individuals who for whatever reason cannot access AVR OR HAART this study suggests a very slight delay in disease progression.
http://www.webmd.com/hiv-aids/news/20131126/multivitamins-may-help-fight-hiv-progression-study-suggests

Sure I would take the vitamins if that was the only thing available. You do realise how very sad and enraging such a situation is and how very cynical and possibly dangerous is such research.

Humans need good food and humans need access to life-savig medicine. There is or could easily be enough good food and enough life-saving medicine for everyone on this planet. If there isn't enough of either, its due to failed government, war, and unequal distribution of wealth and power. So its a bit revolting to offer a multi-vitamen in place of what should be a human right, and its morally murky to research the efficacy of such stop-gap measures.

my opinion.

Lorenzopier · « **Reply #91 on:** January 29, 2015, 04:43:27 am »

Still, "it is incredibly useful to find new strategies to delay the progression of HIV disease," said Dr. Jared Baeten, an associate professor of global health at the University of Washington in Seattle who's familiar with the findings. "Not every HIV-infected person is immediately willing, or able, to initiate anti-retroviral therapy. Inexpensive, proven treatments ahead of starting anti-retroviral therapy can fill an important role."

mecch · « **Reply #92 on:** January 29, 2015, 07:04:48 am »

I stand by my opinion that its morally murky for first world institutions to do such research. My opinion is based on being a socialist who sees marx's theories still offering valuable lessons and directions for governing.
Sure its useful to know a multivitamin has a minor (pitiful IMO), very minor, delaying effect. But the history of treating HIV in Africa is filled with horror stories, and to THIS DAY, of populations denied access to what they really need. Just last year or in a very recent year there was an african posting here who was sent away from her health service with vitamins and the false hope that vitamins were therapeutic. The woman needed HART, damned it! Not a vitamin.
Im just saying, duh. A vitamin helps a malnourished person. Who really needs MEDICINE.

mecch · « **Reply #93 on:** January 29, 2015, 07:10:13 am »

Quote from: Lorenzopier on January 29, 2015, 04:43:27 am

"Not every HIV-infected person is immediately willing (1), or able (2), to initiate anti-retroviral therapy. Inexpensive, proven treatments ahead of starting anti-retroviral therapy can fill an important role."

I find this navel-gazing scientific journal boiler-plate, in research for the purpose of maintaining an academic career.

Why aren't they "able"? Because of power structures in the world resulting in no available meds?

Why aren't they "willing"? Universities should spend money for social scientists to research why people deny life-threatening illness and/or their treatment, and research how to successfully intervene for better participation in treatment.

My opinion, that's all.

Vitamins. Right. Geez.

My two cents is that all those people in Botswana would be perfectly "willing" to forgo a vitamin and 100% "willing" to take all the recent ART that we have available in Switzerland.

The mind boggles!

mecch · « **Reply #94 on:** January 29, 2015, 07:18:23 am »

By the way, for some imperfect analogies,

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html

and is studying people on vitamins in Botswana, people who actually NEED ART, all that different than Tuskegee?
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/tp/article/download/74876/65465

Lorenzopier · « **Reply #95 on:** January 30, 2015, 09:09:43 am »

The Journal of The American Medical Association decided to publish a more detailed account of the study.
http://www.aidsmap.com/Micronutrient-supplements-delay-HIV-disease-progression-for-patients-with-higher-CD4-cell-counts/page/2807699/

Jeff G · « **Reply #96 on:** January 30, 2015, 09:15:57 am »

Quote from: Lorenzopier on January 30, 2015, 09:09:43 am

The Journal of The American Medical Association decided to publish a more detailed account of the study.
http://www.aidsmap.com/Micronutrient-supplements-delay-HIV-disease-progression-for-patients-with-higher-CD4-cell-counts/page/2807699/

One thing that stood out to me from the aidsmap link was this ... Supplementation had no effect on viral load.

I do not think that this study or what it implies is any thing to get excited about ... not at all .

mecch · « **Reply #97 on:** January 30, 2015, 11:02:23 am »

Quote from: Lorenzopier on January 30, 2015, 09:09:43 am

The Journal of The American Medical Association decided to publish a more detailed account of the study.
http://www.aidsmap.com/Micronutrient-supplements-delay-HIV-disease-progression-for-patients-with-higher-CD4-cell-counts/page/2807699/

And yet that reposting by the AMA does nothing to explain the social responsibility of science. Those people in Botswana need ART not vitamins.

zach · « **Reply #98 on:** January 30, 2015, 11:53:18 am »

it is humane to NOT PROVIDE lifesaving medication to someone, when that medication is available. and instead to give them concoctions of seeds and whatever else in order to study them.

are these people willing participants in this "study" with fully informed consent?

i agree completely with mecch here, there is a social responsibility being ignored. this seems barbaric and like something mengele would have thought up.

i personally, want no benefit from whatever gain such a study realizes. that other get sick and die, so that science can learn from the have nots, to save the haves of the world.

i can't help but see some inherent racism/classism in this.

Lorenzopier · « **Reply #99 on:** January 30, 2015, 09:34:44 pm »

The study protocol was approved by the Florida Interna-
tional University institutional review board (IRB), the Har-
vard School of Public Health IRB, the Botswana Health Re-
search Unit of the National Ministry of Health,and the data and
safety monitoring board (DSMB). Appropriate informed con-
sent was obtained and clinical research was conducted in ac-
cordance with guidelines for human experimentation asspeci-
fied by the US Department of Health and Human Services,the
authors’ institutions, or both. The purpose, procedures, and
potential risks and benefits of the study were explained to the
prospective participants, and written informed consent was obtained.

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