Side Note to Moderators->

[nychope1]

SIDE NOTE for Moderators - I think there needs to be a new area for Newbies that is somewhat restricted. So that newbies can discuss frankly with each other without feeling like they are being insensitive to LTS's. Newbies can go and learn from LTS's and those who have been diagnosed for a few years but maybe for the first six months or first year after diagnosis or just getting on meds or both have the freedom to openly talk about their condition and hope and meds with other newbies in an atmosphere that's not, for lack of a better word, jaded or cynical. There are valid reasons for those who have experienced a different time in this virus's history to come across in that way but it is human nature that the condition will spill over into their opinion now. It is a new day in this virus and a lot of those stigma's and experiences sometimes may frighten newbies. Just my opinion.

My apologies if some feel this is insensitive. That is not my intention.

[Theyer]

Hi nychope 1
I think managing fear is a huge part off HIV/AID, there are many ways to do this , however ensuring a space where only non fearful comments can be posted would be to say the least  , odd.

To my mind anyway " am i infected ' and " I just tested Poz " are the areas , .

As a LTS I hope not to see yet another sub group emerge.

Clearly is this day and age anyone testing POZ with a good CD4 is in a optimistic position, surly one that can tolerate and not exclude folk like myself.

I am glad you have joined this community ,regularly posting your experience off being HIV+, which I have been following.

Best Wishes
t

[nychope1]

I'm just putting it out there. I do get private messages from time to time about it. It would be about whatever and I am sure not non fearful. That's not the point. Hey, this forum helped me a lot without it but I chat with newbies and I get where the conversation is coming from.

But yes, I just tested pos is the appropriate place as an alternative. That's where I went and still belong...

[woodshere]

I was just the opposite when I joined.  I wanted info and to learn.  I wanted to discuss all aspects about HIV with those who had been poz for a few months to years.  Who better to tell you that it gets better, its not the end of the world and life goes on then someone who has experienced 2 or 3 yrs ago what you are experiencing now.  Also an excellent way to learn some history and appreciation for those who have fought the fight for years.  I think to surround yourself with like people hinders one from understanding the full perspective of the virus.

I agree with Theyer seems like the I Just Tested Poz  Forum would be an adequate spot.  I too would hate to see another forum develop that is limited to just a certain group.

[Miss Philicia]

Isn't this what "I Just Tested Poz" is for?  I know as a LTS'er I rarely, if ever, go in there and leave it to other recently infected people to chime in and commiserate.  I don't understand the OP's request here.

[PeteNYNJ]

Isn't this what "I Just Tested Poz" is for?  I know as a LTS'er I rarely, if ever, go in there and leave it to other recently infected people to chime in and commiserate.  I don't understand the OP's request here.

Maybe to chat about HIV without the stark reality that they have HIV and, for better or worse, their lives are going to change  ?

[nychope1]

I do believe there is a certain amount of reading comprehension lacking around here.

I was just the opposite when I joined.  I wanted info and to learn.  I wanted to discuss all aspects about HIV with those who had been poz for a few months to years.  Who better to tell you that it gets better, its not the end of the world and life goes on then someone who has experienced 2 or 3 yrs ago what you are experiencing now.  Also an excellent way to learn some history and appreciation for those who have fought the fight for years.  I think to surround yourself with like people hinders one from understanding the full perspective of the virus.

I agree with Theyer seems like the I Just Tested Poz  Forum would be an adequate spot.  I too would hate to see another forum develop that is limited to just a certain group.

In my original post above I specifcally stated, and I qoute; "Newbies can go and learn from LTS's and those who have been diagnosed for a few years..."

Yes newbies have to learn, as I did and still am, but I believe a restricted area for them to then discuss what they have learned and are learning as well as what it means to be HIV+ now in this day of age could be helpful. I am all about learning from the wiser and more experienced. Again it's just a suggestion.

Yeah PeteNYNJ... Their life doesn't have to have this dramatic change and certainly not necessarily for the worse. Thanks for proving my point.

[jkinatl2]

The Just Infected forum states in it's Blurb:

For the newly diagnosed, and the long-termers with sage advice

Sage advice is not always pretty, and it is not always upbeat. But I for one rarely post there. I figure that Living With is where "real" HIV advice and info can happen. However, seeing newly diagnosed people giving one another incorrect advice or perpetuating stigma is a sad thing to witness on a forum with AM's reputation.

If you want a forum where no one is allowed to discuss or debate your posts, or is locked out of participating in any way other than is "positive" (I am not even sure what that means, exactly) I am curious as to how one would accomplish this. IMO, it would certainly make the transition into "Living With HIV," both from a forum point of view and living with HIV IRL no less traumatic, and likely more so.

[Ann]

Maybe to chat about HIV without the stark reality that they have HIV and, for better or worse, their lives are going to change   ?

We have a new area for newly diagnosed people to chat and it's called I Just Tested Poz. What more do you want? I don't understand.

Yes newbies have to learn, as I did and still am, but I believe a restricted area for them to then discuss what they have learned and are learning as well as what it means to be HIV+ now in this day of age could be helpful. I am all about learning from the wiser and more experienced. Again it's just a suggestion.

You mean like the blind leading the blind? People who are only just learning about the nuts and bolts of hiv often get things wrong and need to be gently corrected.

There aren't all that many LTS who post in that forum but when they do, it's usually with important information, advice and support. If sometimes what they have to say comes off as being jaded or cynical, there's usually a very good reason for it. The voice of experience is priceless.

[nychope1]

You're a very nice person, Ann so I won't repeat what I just wrote a minute ago. I addressed those issues you mentioned when I started this little thread. Qoute " There are valid reasons for those who have experienced a different time in this virus's history to come across in that way but it is human nature that the condition will spill over into their opinion now."

It's about a safe place to get support and chat about whatever with other newbies in a way that relates to the current time.

Blind leading the blind?  Oh well...  I assume that a newbie could still ask questions and learn form LTS's and others.

[nychope1]

The Just Infected forum states in it's Blurb:
If you want a forum where no one is allowed to discuss or debate your posts, or is locked out of participating in any way other than is "positive" (I am not even sure what that means, exactly) I am curious as to how one would accomplish this. IMO, it would certainly make the transition into "Living With HIV," both from a forum point of view and living with HIV IRL no less traumatic, and likely more so.

Wouldn't there be other newbies that are discussing and debating? In the LTS thread, is that just for folks who don't want to discuss or debate? It would be discussing and debating amongst newbies. For that matter why is there any restricted area? Women? LTS's?

[Ann]

I addressed those issues you mentioned when I started this little thread.

It's about a safe place to get support and chat about whatever with other newbies in a way that relates to the current time.

I guess I just don't quite understand what you're asking for. If there's a safer place on the internet to discuss hiv, I'd like to know about it so I could go there myself.

Maybe you and some of the other new people you say you PM with could exchange Skype contact details and talk to each other that way? Then you wouldn't have to worry about any one else butting in to your conversation. I'm not being sarky when I say that, I genuinely mean it. I've had conversations with many forum members over the years thanks to the privacy and immediacy of Skype (and it's free) and it's been a great source of support for me. It could be for you too.

[Ann]

Wouldn't there be other newbies that are discussing and debating? In the LTS thread, is that just for folks who don't want to discuss or debate? It would be discussing and debating amongst newbies. For that matter why is there any restricted area? Women? LTS's?

The LTS forum is restricted because unless you were diagnosed before 1996, you can never really know what they've gone through and are still going through. They can speak to each other - almost in a sort of "shorthand" - without having to constantly explain things.

Same thing for the women's forum. Unless you're a woman, you'll never understand what women deal with. And yes, many of the things women with hiv face are very different to what men face. And don't get on the "why isn't there a men's forum" soapbox. The rest of the forums are open to men and men comprise well over 90% of our members.

However, we have ALL been newly diagnosed. We've ALL been in that frightening place. We've ALL been clueless about treatments. We've ALL been mystified as to what our labs mean.

We've ALL been there, done that, to varying degrees. But we've ALL been new to hiv.

[nychope1]

Okay.. good point finally. Though I still believe one for newbies would be interesting.

[PeteNYNJ]

I don't know, maybe it is just me, but when I came on here when first diagnosed it was to hear the voice of experience.  I had so many questions and although living in NYC and being 30 when I was diagnosed, I had no close friends who were HIV positive (that I knew of, that changed when I came out with my status).

Take everything with a grain of salt.  If someone is being overly negative or "jaded" and you aren't ready to read that, then don't read it.  

There are days when I don't want to read certain people's posts so I don't.  Other days, I read everything they write.

It can be quite overwhelming when first diagnosed for some people, others take it in stride.  People are different.  I find the best way to chat with like minded individuals is through PM on here.  Plus you get the added bonus of making fun of other members without getting into trouble

Okay.. good point finally. Though I still believe one for newbies would be interesting.

You seem like a good guy, but the tone of your writing can be a bit off putting which is why you might be getting some flak.  Saying "good point finally" implies that everything else the poster said was rubbish.  It is a bit rude.  Just my two cents.

[nychope1]

Yes I suppose..in chats it is difficult to decipher inflection. But I have an opinion for sure as do others.
Yes I did not agree with the other posters but one must agree with all that post. What would be the point? But note taken .

[Joe K]

Since when did we start referring to the newly infected as "newbies"? The term "newbies", to me, is incredibly offensive. Since when is anyone on this forum "new" to anything? Yes HIV is something new in their life, but surely they do not allow themselves to be defined by their infection. We come here, as a shared community and over the years we have created forums, to address what we believe to be the main areas of interest. There are forums for virtually anything and almost no subject is taboo and that is the whole point.

I don't come here to argue with folks, I come to exchange ideas, thoughts and experiences and as with life, that sometimes involves some drama or discomfort. I cannot understand your request because you undermine your own argument, with the use of an offensive term. Folks who are recently diagnosed, need access to virtually everything about HIV and these forums have been fine-tuned to address those needs. Please do not seek to create a divide, between the newly infected and others who have lived longer with the virus. The only divide is one that we allow to exist. This is a shared journey and nobody is suggesting you have to agree with what is posted, however, you must respect the right of the poster to their views. Anything less is censorship and would deny our audience of what we do best... support each other.

Maybe if you stop looking for what is not here, you will find the real treasure here: our members. Without us, we are nothing.

[ElZorro]

Since when did we start referring to the newly infected as "newbies"? The term "newbies", to me, is incredibly offensive.

I'm not jumping on this thread because I'm interested generating a heated debate and I don't want any of this to be taken offensively (this isn't a hill I'd be willing to die on), but I absolutely understand where NYC is coming from in his original post.

I can't answer your question as to when it was started, Joe, but you're absolutely correct: it's very offensive and demeaning. The term absolutely delegitimizes one's presence in these forums. Welcome to "our world".   

As valuable as these forums have been to me in the past 18 months I can tell you that it sucks to feel like one can't ask a question without being judged as ignorant or naive (why else would a question be asked?). The "beat down" that new members experience is unbelievable out here.  In my book, advising someone to "stop looking for what is not here" is demeaning and another form of a beatdown (and I'm not attacking you, Joe, I'm just using that as one example). NYC made a simple suggestion based on his current perception (I'm a firm believer that each person's perception is their reality). What is wrong with that?  Also, he did not undermine his own argument by using an offensive term. He didn't coin the term as anyone can see by typing it into the search box.

I've been considering a similar post to NYC's for a couple of months now because there is a significant "class distinction" in these forums between those who have been members for years and those who are newly diagnosed. I too, get a lot of the same types of IMs. The reason that I never posted that suggestion was because I figured it would be difficult to develop the appropriate method of matriculating someone from "newbie" status to whatever lies between that and LTS. I, too, think it would be great to have a place to talk about how we are dealing with the issues that many of the members out here have already dealt with and to just "blow off steam" without having someone chime in to minimize what we are going through because they've been through worse.

In the real world, there is a stigma associated with HIV and I can tell you that there is also a "stigma" about being a newly infected member of these forums; we aren't a member of the AM club. But, then again, as Groucho indicated, "who wants to be a member of a club that would have them as a member?" 

@NYC: IMs and email are working great for me and a few other folks. It's not the same as having "an open forum" that others can chime in on, but until something else comes along, that's what I'd recommend.

~ Z

[nychope1]

Since when did we start referring to the newly infected as "newbies"? The term "newbies", to me, is incredibly offensive. Since when is anyone on this forum "new" to anything? Yes HIV is something new in their life, but surely they do not allow themselves to be defined by their infection. We come here, as a shared community and over the years we have created forums, to address what we believe to be the main areas of interest. There are forums for virtually anything and almost no subject is taboo and that is the whole point.

I don't come here to argue with folks, I come to exchange ideas, thoughts and experiences and as with life, that sometimes involves some drama or discomfort. I cannot understand your request because you undermine your own argument, with the use of an offensive term. Folks who are recently diagnosed, need access to virtually everything about HIV and these forums have been fine-tuned to address those needs. Please do not seek to create a divide, between the newly infected and others who have lived longer with the virus. The only divide is one that we allow to exist. This is a shared journey and nobody is suggesting you have to agree with what is posted, however, you must respect the right of the poster to their views. Anything less is censorship and would deny our audience of what we do best... support each other.

Maybe if you stop looking for what is not here, you will find the real treasure here: our members. Without us, we are nothing.

I didn't invent that name "newbie" I got it from this forum. It is an odd name but it is what this forum seems to use to describe someone who was just diagnosed. I started this thread with an upbeat idea after posting a few threads and chatting with other folks who are newly diagnosed. It's hardly precedence as there are restricted areas existing here. As one who doesn't like to argue you have given me your strong argument and opinion a couple of times.

Go back to the top and read the first couple of postings. Other than being a provocative idea I can't see the problem with suggesting an idea. It may not be a good idea that is fine. It wasn't meant to divide. The only divide may be your own projection.

New folks rely on the LTS's, (name not penned my me either), to find information and ask questions. In my opinion it would also have been helpful for them to have a section where they can share their new experiences with HIV with those who also have those new experiences without the commentary of another day and time. Just as women with HIV and LTS's have a unique experience to share amongst themselves without commentary from those who may not understand I believe the same exists for the newly diagnosed.  I suppose there is no nice way to say that I guess. There was never a suggestion to censor anyone. And as the other restricted areas don't breed misinformation or censorship nor should another. The rest of the forum still exists.

The only censorship is coming from those who vehemently would prefer not to hear other opinions and suggestions.  

It's only that. A suggestion. An opinion. It's all good. What a way to spend a day off!

[nychope1]

Wow.. Thanks much El Zorro for helping me clarify my suggestion.

oh.. as Groucho also said "Don't leave in a huff. Leave in a minute and a huff."

Going out for a bite and beer. Cheers.

[J.R.E.]

Since when did we start referring to the newly infected as "newbies"? The term "newbies", to me, is incredibly offensive.

I agree, But this term "Newbie "has been used for quite a while.  Just type newbie into the search, and you will get the answer to that question, and to those who have used it

I also very, very seldom go into the "I just tested positive forum", I don't believe another forum is needed.


Ray

[Miss Philicia]

Newbie was not invented on these forums -- it's internet lingo and widely used on forums, and I've heard it for 15 years, or since I've posted on various (non-HIV) web forums:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie

[buginme2]

Im newly positive. It sucks.  I would frankly rather read the posts in living with HIV than the just tested positive forum.  I would personally like some advice from someone thats been there rather than someone else who is in the same situation as I am telling me every thing is going to be ok and to buck up.

I dont like the term newbie either.  Like I just joined some fraternity. Id rather not be a member

[WillyWump]

Newbie was not invented on these forums -- it's internet lingo and widely used on forums, and I've heard it for 15 years, or since I've posted on various (non-HIV) web forums:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie

Yup I've heard it for years. I don't see it as an offensive term, I see it as saving me 10 keystrokes as it's a shortcut to "newly diagnosed", I'm wondering how a term as "newbie" can be considered denigrating? But I've been known to be cold and callous.

If you take away the word "newbie" the person is still new to HIV or this site, it is what it is and nothing will hide that fact.

But I guess in the new politically correct world, we should just all start saying "newly diagnosed" so we dont offend anyone.

-W

[Joe K]

I know what the term "newbie" means, I've been playing online games for years and we call new players "noobs", but that is a game and HIV is anything but a game. I would like to comment more, but it appears I have a troll following me, sending me PMs about my posts, even after I asked him not to and I don't need the grief.

Over and out.

[aztecan]

I also don't see the need for a separate forum for newbies.

As Ray said, I rarely go to the "I just tested positive" forum. It isn't that I don't empathize, but I would just sound like a broken record.

There is an LTS forum because we dinosaurs went through some crap those infected after the advent of the cocktail have never experienced, nor would they want to.

But there is likely nothing a newly infected person is experiencing that we, or even those infected for only a decade or so, haven't already been through.

HUGS,

Mark

[wtfimpoz]

I had a big, elaborate response set out here.  I deleted it, for fear that you or other readers wouldn't read the whole thing.  My revised message is much simpler:  I feel your pain.  A lot of the responses you've gotten have been mean and spiteful.  A newbie forum isn't practical, use the "ignore" button like its going out of style.  Most of these people just want attention anyways.  Trust me, they don't have anything meaningful to contribute anyways.

[Joe K]

I had a big, elaborate response set out here.  I deleted it, for fear that you or other readers wouldn't read the whole thing.  My revised message is much simpler:  I feel your pain.  A lot of the responses you've gotten have been mean and spiteful.  A newbie forum isn't practical, use the "ignore" button like its going out of style.  Most of these people just want attention anyways.  Trust me, they don't have anything meaningful to contribute anyways.

Just wow.

[woodshere]

wtfimpoz, what a shame that you would discount the opinions of others who have lived with this virus for years.  I fail to see where anything in this thread has been mean or spiteful, a difference of opinion yes but not mean or spiteful.  As a matter of fact the only thing i see that has been mean or spiteful is

Trust me, they don't have anything meaningful to contribute anyways

.  Perhaps overtime you will realize that HIV effects everyone of us differently, thereby giving each of us a different outlook.  These forums provide an opportunity for us all to bring our experiences to the table.  I may not agree with everyone on here, but I respect their opinion and their right to offer it here.  I would hope you would do the same.


edited for grammar

[jkinatl2]

Just wow.

Seriously.

[wtfimpoz]

wtfimpoz, what a shame that you would discount the opinions of others who have lived with this virus for years.  I fail to see where anything in this thread has been mean or spiteful, a difference of opinion yes but not mean or spiteful.  As a matter of fact the only thing i see that has been mean or spiteful is .  Perhaps overtime you will realize that HIV effects everyone of us differently, thereby giving each of us a different outlook.  These forums provide an opportunity for us all to bring our experiences to the table.  I may not agree with everyone on here, but I respect their opinion and their right to offer it here.  I would hope you would do the same.


edited for grammar

I'm not going to link to specific instances where other members have been mean and spiteful to NYC, but I am going to point out that your desire to misapply my statement to "others who have lived with the virus" is an example of the cartel mentality which has been rightly complained about. You're another one for the block list.  Have a nice life.

[Joe K]

I'm not going to link to specific instances where other members have been mean and spiteful to NYC, but I am going to point out that your desire to misapply my statement to "others who have lived with the virus" is an example of the cartel mentality which others have rightly complained about. You're another one for the block list.  Have a nice life.

Now this thread makes sense. This has nothing to do with a separate forum, it's a written temper tantrum. If you believe, that because some of us disagreed with NYC, that we were being mean and spiteful, well I can't help you there. These forums are for adults, to discuss and disagree about topics in which we have a shared interest. But instead of acting like adults, some of you are acting just like children, holding a grudge and when that doesn't work, posting a tantrum.

But what really pisses me off, is you use the words mean and spiteful, when your very behavior equals their meanings.

[woodshere]

killfoile, I was kind of thinking the same thing.  Thanks for putting into words far better than I could.

Well at least i was wished a good life....

[RapidRod]

The old saying, "If the pups can't hang with the big dogs, then the pups should stay on the porch until they can." In other words, stay in the I just tested positive forum if you can't handle constructive facts and opinions from others.

[numbers]

ElZorro expressed it beautifully.

[PeteNYNJ]

Weren't we all new here at some time?  I guess I fall in that in between new and LTS and never had a problem once in this forum.  I think I was warned once or twice but I have never had a problem at all.  Maybe my expectations are different from what I expect from a forum.  I come here for practical information, learing from those experienced this shitty virus and lived how they did it, advice about medical issues that revolve around HIV, and once in a while I come for a giggle.

What I have gotten out of it that was unexpected was some cyber friendships from people I never met, different points of views I would never think about, and some laughs.

I don't come on here to have everyone coddle or agree with me.  If I am being naive about a situation I want to know (respectfully).  I also take the time to read and think BEFORE I post.  What is the intention of the replies I get?  Am I being overly sensitive due to a bad day? 

I also don't ignore anyone because even if I don't like their opinions, sometimes they have something to say.

Again, everyone is different.  Just my 2 cents. 

[Joe K]

As valuable as these forums have been to me in the past 18 months I can tell you that it sucks to feel like one can't ask a question without being judged as ignorant or naive (why else would a question be asked?). The "beat down" that new members experience is unbelievable out here.  In my book, advising someone to "stop looking for what is not here" is demeaning and another form of a beatdown (and I'm not attacking you, Joe, I'm just using that as one example). NYC made a simple suggestion based on his current perception (I'm a firm believer that each person's perception is their reality). What is wrong with that?  Also, he did not undermine his own argument by using an offensive term. He didn't coin the term as anyone can see by typing it into the search box.

I've been considering a similar post to NYC's for a couple of months now because there is a significant "class distinction" in these forums between those who have been members for years and those who are newly diagnosed. I too, get a lot of the same types of IMs. The reason that I never posted that suggestion was because I figured it would be difficult to develop the appropriate method of matriculating someone from "newbie" status to whatever lies between that and LTS. I, too, think it would be great to have a place to talk about how we are dealing with the issues that many of the members out here have already dealt with and to just "blow off steam" without having someone chime in to minimize what we are going through because they've been through worse.

In the real world, there is a stigma associated with HIV and I can tell you that there is also a "stigma" about being a newly infected member of these forums; we aren't a member of the AM club. But, then again, as Groucho indicated, "who wants to be a member of a club that would have them as a member?" 

I have been thinking about this post since yesterday and I believe I owe some of you an apology. Sometimes I can be so obtuse in dealing with folks, that I lose sight of what the real issue is and I believe I did that, in this thread and I apologize for being so insensitive. I believe I know what you are asking for and I am sorry to hear that you have needs that are not being met by the forums. Over the years, by working with our wonderful moderators and members, we have started forums that address the needs of the ever changing face of HIV. At one time, there were few forums here, but as the forum grew, we identified needs that could be better met by having their own forum and the result is what you see today.

I suppose part of my frustration at times, is I have been with the forums for a very long time and these forums are extremely sensitive to all members needs. When we created the I Just Tested Poz forum, part of the reason was that we did not want newly infected members, to come upon the Living with HIV as the only forum for discussing HIV. That forum has always been for members who have lived with HIV for a period and it often contains posts, that could be very frighting to the newly infected. It was also one of the reasons, that the Long-Term Survivors forum was created, because some of our stories, are even too harrowing for the living with forum and by petitioning the moderators, we collectively decided on the nature of the forum and what to call those who have lived with HIV for a long period. So the term LTS, is one we chose for ourselves, as we believe it accurately defines what we have done... survived.

As a LTS, I have lived a long challenging life and my main goal here, is to help others make that transition from the newly infected to living with HIV. I like to think that I do a decent job of supporting folks, until threads like this appear, which cause me to pause and reassess my thoughts. The reason I apologize is that I believe I invalidated the feelings of some of the posters and I know how that feels and doing that has nothing to do with providing support. I can see how some of my words were poorly chosen and it was never my intent to denigrate anyone, over their own feelings.

I am having a hard time with words here, because I believe I know what you are asking for, however I believe that much of what you seek, must come from inside of you. Having HIV sucks, it is not fair and HIV sucks, but that is our reality. My biggest challenge, when I became poz, was to hide my status of being both gay and poz, because it was 1985 and well, it was 1985. I suppose I want to believe that things are so much better today for the newly infected, but in some ways, things never change. There will always remain that horrible trauma of being diagnosed poz and that sometimes difficult journey to acceptance of our infection and a life time controlling our disease.

I would hope, that by using the various forums, you can find the support you seek. Believe me, when I tell you that you will not find a finer group of people, than the members of this forum. As you have seen, we can be quarrelsome at times, however, when you really need someone to watch your back, the members here are second to none in providing support. For my part, I will try and be more sensitive to the newly infected members, because we are all here seeking the same thing... support.

[nychope1]

You have a lot of character Killfoile and are a good man...
I regretted for a bit posting that suggestion as it was completely misconstrued and seemed to spark some strong emotions. Could be partly due to my writing skills. It never had anything to do with ignoring any particular group. Just some added support for another. Some got that, some didn't. Either way it did spark one hell of a discussion and caused myself to think more and it seems others. So maybe some good came of it.
Have a great day and as always I wish everyone here a health and happiness.

[skeebo1969]

KUMBAYA

[Theyer]

Dear Nychope,

and all who joined in,

This has been one very valuable thread, and I thank you for starting it and continuing to stay with it. With a few exceptions for blowing off steam the consideration put into the posts shines out.  And that is why I do not want anymore splits. I do not see finding others to communicate with as a negative comment on the existing forums rather a thumbs up to the entire site whose design facilitates 1 to 1 , and group discussion.

All though being a fully paid up member off the LTS group, I have been contributing for only a year and have at times felt very new. What  this thread has done, I think , is to remind all off us to be mindful off each other . LTS and long tern users need new members if we wish to have a dynamic, living active community. That will mean new and longer term users negotiating with each other from time to time and hopefully always keeping respect in our on going  posts .
 
Many thanks to everybody ( I will stop now as I suddenly had a mental image off a celeb presenting awards , darlink }

Michael/theyer

[ElZorro]

Thanks for your post, Joe. Is was very kind and very generous.

~Z