POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: phildinftlaudy on September 29, 2010, 03:31:54 pm
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I read this and immediately thought back to those that don't see the need to recognize gay marriage, those that don't see the need to repeal DADT, those that don't see how stigma against gay people causes not only harm, but in this case death:
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/gaysouthflorida/2010/09/video-another-bullied-gay-boy-13-dies-after-hanging-himself-from-a-backyard-tree.html
Now, tell me that equality is not a big deal.
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A similar tragedy:
A Rutgers University freshman is believed to have taken his own life last week shortly after he was broadcast engaging in sexual activity with another man.
According to WPIX, officials believe the student, who the New York Daily News has identified as 18-year-old Tyler Clementi, jumped from the George Washington Bridge on Sept. 23. His car was found nearby with his computer and cellphone inside.
WPIX reports that the Clementi's alleged roommate, Dharun Ravi, and another first-year student, Molly Wei, were charged with invasion of privacy for secretly leaving a camera in the his bedroom on Sept. 19 and posting footage of an ensuing sexual encounter on the internet.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/29/dharun-revi-molly-wei-charged_n_743539.html
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Watching that video broke my heart, I can't imagine the grief and pain those youngsters went through when they were told their brother/best friend didn't make it.
Those who were responsible should be charged with murder, I can't believe, in the case of the young man who jumped from the bridge, that all they were charged with was "invasion of privacy"..where the hell is the justice in that.
DAMN RIGHT EQUALITY IS A BIG DEAL.
Hugs
Jan :-*
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I've said it before, extremists are back and they are betting bolder. >:(
We need to fight and we need to do it fast. Can show them "tolerance" when we have them all up in cages. ;) :D
Perez on the Rutgers tragedy:
http://perezhilton.com/tag/molly_wei/ (http://perezhilton.com/tag/molly_wei/)
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damn straight it is. wait, damn right it is. it is very fucking important. makes me want to campaign or something.
best,
d
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"Those who were responsible should be charged with murder, I can't believe, in the case of the young man who jumped from the bridge, that all they were charged with was "invasion of privacy"..where the hell is the justice in that."
I agree something more needs to come of their actions and I suspect it will. Seeing their mugs on our national news this morning is assurance that they are going to get quite a taste of what they did to Tyler's privacy. They have fucked themselves and their privacy big time. What a tragic loss of a talented young man.
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Those who were responsible should be charged with murder, I can't believe, in the case of the young man who jumped from the bridge, that all they were charged with was "invasion of privacy"..where the hell is the justice in that.
From the above article:
In New Jersey, it is a fourth-degree crime to collect images showing sexual content or nudity without the subject's consent, and it is a third-degree crime to transmit the relevant content... If convicted for third degree offenses, the Ravi and Wei could face up to five years in prison. Neither gave comment to news sources who contacted them.
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I think we should sic 4chan on them. For starters.
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It was terribly heartbraking to read about Tyler taking his life so tragically. Those two young folks wers so incredibly stupid and heartless to tape young people who seek the ultimate privacy and to destroy that trust deserves punishment. But a talented young man taking his life is the worst possible tragedy. I wish he had thought it out differently, it wasn't to be.
Jody :(
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I am torn on if anyone should be charged with a crime. If this was a webcast of a straight couple making out, it might prove embarrassing, but I doubt it would lead anyone to commit suicide. The fact that this kid happens to be gay and suffers stigma because of that fact, is not the fault of the interlopers. They did not create that stigma against gays by themselves and to a degree, we are all guilty of allowing stigma to fester. Every time you refuse to call someone on saying or doing mean hateful things, you contribute to stigma.
Rather than focusing on two college students, who did something incredibly cruel, I would rather see the focus on the ones who propagate this hatred towards gays, or any group, that they oppose. Pressure should be brought against those who make a living at demeaning others. You know who they are and you should take every opportunity to oppose such hatred, whether it be nationally or locally.
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NYTimes has a very long, active, and revealing comments thread going on this.
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/nyregion/30suicide.html
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This just aired today on the local news. I really hope these gay couples weren't targeted because of their sexuality.
http://www.wlky.com/r/25224163/detail.html
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If this was a webcast of a straight couple making out, it might prove embarrassing, but I doubt it would lead anyone to commit suicide.
I can definitely see straight teenagers being suicidal over having themselves secretly recorded having sex and having it broadcast. I see teens who have attempted suicide for much less serious situations. For example, take a teen girl with insecurities about her body or sexuality and then her "sex tape" starts making the rounds. Classmates start teasing her about her flat chest, her fat ass, the sounds she made, her fumbling technique, that she is a slut. Then add her parents view the video and are not supportive but furious. Many teens don't know how to cope with that kind of humiliation and alienation. The fact this young man was gay and that our society says homosexuality is shameful makes an already overwhelming situation exponentially more unbearable.
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I can definitely see straight teenagers being suicidal over having themselves secretly recorded having sex and having it broadcast. I see teens who have attempted suicide for much less serious situations. For example, take a teen girl with insecurities about her body or sexuality and then her "sex tape" starts making the rounds. Classmates start teasing her about her flat chest, her fat ass, the sounds she made, her fumbling technique, that she is a slut. Then add her parents view the video and are not supportive but furious. Many teens don't know how to cope with that kind of humiliation and alienation. The fact this young man was gay and that our society says homosexuality is shameful makes an already overwhelming situation exponentially more unbearable.
Totally agree with you. It's not about gay/straight/masturbation/whatever--this is about invasion of privacy and its subsequent broadcast. This a.m., the news said the charges may be ratcheted up to hate crime status if they can prove it was not a prank as dear sweet tech-savvy lawyered up Ravi is asserting. As Killfoile noted previously, every time we refuse to call someone out for doing mean, hateful things, it contributes to stigma. Where I disagree with Killfoile is that focus should be taken off of these two RUTGERS BRAINIACS. I say call them out big time---they should be smart enough to know better than to rig a roomful of hidden cameras and stream it live on webcam. On the other hand, some people are too fucking stupid to separate themselves from a pack of idiots or they were raised in a hateful, harsh setting. And, I suppose I'm optimistic enough to think it's never too late to attempt to educate them.
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I think I need to clarify my comments, because my intent was obviously not clear. What these two students did was hateful and possibly illegal, however, I do not believe that they had criminal intent when they broadcast the event. This does not absolve them of responsibility, my question is to what degree are they culpable, because this happens every day, across the globe and very few suicides result from most of these events. I am not condoning what they did, yet they are kids, just like the deceased and do we want to punish them, for life, because societal pressure and discrimination against gays contributed to the suicide. Yes, they need to be called to account, for what they actually did and not the end result. Unless they had true malice for this poor kid, they only did something incredibly hateful and stupid, as kids are wont to do and they should face consequences as dictated by the law and not fueled by emotions.
Further, I should have said that as well as addressing these two students behavior, it was time for everyone to begin to attack our leaders and pundits that propagate this hate. Somehow, these students thought it would be funny to out a gay man and they learned that from someone. As long as we allow an atmosphere of loathing and hatred to exist, for whatever group, we need to be cautious when we seek to punish people for doing things that a large part of society condones. The tragedy here goes far beyond the loss of life. To me, it signals a continuation of conquering by division and how far too many people seem to lack the ability of true rational thought. The lack of empathy in America is appalling and this is the price some of us must pay. The real crime here is a society that promotes hatred against gays.
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Follow up stories say Tyler was dealing with the invasion kind of normally - he decided to report it to the RA and wondered if whistle blowing might work or backfire. He was chatting about it on a gay site, wondering what to do. Then suddenly, its seemed he decided to kill himself.
Bewildering reports from friends of the accused. They say that Ravi is a wiseass, but has gay friends and isn't known for gay bashing. If I am correct what we know so far is that Ravi was on the border between gay bashing or being a criminal prankster - he said - "I saw him kissing a dude. Yah!" Which is kind of different than - he's a fucking pervert / faggot, etc. That Tyler was with a dude seems to have added sensational energy to the invasion of privacy but its not clear the invasion of privacy was motivated by hate. Maybe it was just mean pranks permitted by crappy judgment and bad character. Maybe it was the extrovert type A bullying the introvert type B.
Its clear for the criminal aspects of invasion of privacy -- and its clear that Tyler experienced it as harassment based on his sexuality. But its not clear if that was basically the intent (gay bashing) by Ravi and Wei.
I don't know if you have to prove intent to prove a hate crime. Anyone know this? Is it hate felt by the victim or a crime motivated by the criminal expressing his hate. I suppose it could be a hate crime even if the criminal is not aware that he is a hater. If fag-bashing seems normal to the criminal, he might not realise he's a hater, but still could commit a hate crime, because of society's laws and interpretations.
http://thephoenix.com/BLOGS/phlog/archive/2010/09/30/whats-hate-got-to-do-with-it.aspx
The Boston Phoenix had a good analysis of the contentious issue of hate in this crime.
I just wonder if pursuing it as a hate crime makes sense if the hate is not easily established. Might be better to pursue it as a gross invasion of privacy, because, as gymrat shows, anyone could be pushed over the edge to despair if his her Achilles heel is sensationalised and publicized.
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One thing that has me wondering is the fact that I've yet to see one mention of the other lad who was with Tyler. How is he doing with all this? Is he pressing any charges? Does he feel that it was a hate crime? I would have thought he would hold the key to some of these questions about the nature of the crime.
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Good call, Ann!
And probably Tyler should have gone straight to the real police, not the "authorities" with the power to do nothing like an RA. Then again, who knows which authority would stop the abuse, and punish the abuser. Tyler had even recently said Ravi was an "ok roommate". Somehow the exposure added up to an overwhelming blow to lead to suicide. So one does wonder how the other victim feels.
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However the justice turns out, both Ravi & Wei will both now have to live with the crime and also look behind their backs all the time to keep safe. There will be many more same ole same ole sickos out to get even on them hereon. The wheels of retribution is turning. >:( ::) ;)
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This doesn't smell like a "hate crime" (whatever that might be), it seems like a stupid prank by two kids that went horribly wrong.
Never underestimate the capacity of teens to do dumb things nor to be unable to forsee the consequences of their actions. I'm sure that Ravi and Wei did not appreciate that their (alleged) act of wanton stupidity would result in their friend necking himself.
Should the offenders be prosecuted? Sure, if NJ law has been breached (and it seems to have been) then bring it on. No doubt the death of the boy adds an extra dimension which will play out nicely in court.
MtD
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In teenagers, the part of the brain that has to do with impulsivity, (which I believe is the nucleus accumbens, but I could be wrong), is not yet connected with the part of the brain that has to do with controlling impulses (the prefrontal cortex). So, when you ask a teen "why did you do that," and (s)he says "I don't know," well, (s)he really doesn't know.
I'm not saying that they should be excused. But I don't believe it was a hate crime. Just a stupid action, that should lead to a consequence suitable to the crime.