At a crossroads

[Joe K]

Dear Forum Members,

I have debated this issue for ten days now and I believe I have an obligation to state my position and resulting decision.  I post this separately because I do not want to detract from the other threads concerning Time Outs and senior members.

I will be the first to admit that my behavior over the past few weeks merited that I received a TO.  I have been adjusting my psych meds and had a very acute reaction that resulted in the behavior that many of you witnessed.  Fortunately I was able to isolate the problem and I have been feeling much better over the last ten days and I have returned to center, but I have paid a very high price.

When I was given a TO, the post below was made by Tim Horn and it was appropriate given the circumstances.  The TO policy to date states that you get one warning, then a 48-hour TO, then a 7-day TO and after that you risk being permanently banned.

Below is the final post in the thread in which five of our members received TOs.  (I could not quote the post because the thread is locked.)

I've locked this thread and we've issued additional time outs to Lis, DancerBoy, Killfoile, and KCMetroman. 

I can't believe that this is what it has come to.  Either we completely turn our backs -- which I don't think anyone wants us to do -- or really start cracking down on ALL those who keep the battles going in the Forums. 

We have those who instigate and those who react.  What's really frustrating is that the lines separating the two have become incredibly blurred.  And with the alliances that have been formed, along with all the finger pointing among various individuals, it is almost impossible to see things with different degrees of guilt.  And because we're now at this point, 48 hour time outs, following by seven-day time outs, followed by full bans will be meted out to any perpetuating flame wars in any of the AIDSmeds.com Forums. 

This really sucks.

Tim Horn

« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 08:00:25 AM by Tim Horn »    Report to moderator   

________________________________________Tim Horn

The policy was plainly stated so we all knew the rules, but those rules proved to be arbitrary because I was not given a 48-hour TO for my first offense, but a 7-day TO.  I believe my extended TO was a direct result of a hasty email I made, in which I stated that I was leaving the forums, while I was still having problems mentally.  Further compounding the problem was the lack of support from this very forum and this has proved to be an incredibly hurtful experience for me.  I have been here for four years and have shared many details regarding my battle with mental health and while some of my behavior was off the wall, surely the possibility of my having mental health issues at the time, should have come into play.

You know I suffer from mental illness and despite my commitment to this site; I was expelled when I needed this place most.  John, Trish and Danny were able to go to their other forum at AIDS2HIV where they had all the support they needed.  Meanwhile Lis and I we were simply left twisting in the wind for 7 days.

I seek no special treatment but I must insist on being treated fairly and this has not happened.  I expected someone would express support for the two main issues that I raised: which centered on offensive and hateful posts and the posting of hateful comments and then removing said comments, when condemned by other posters.

I have been under an enormous amount of stress that for me is rarely a good thing.  I remain hurt that virtually nobody on this forum said anything in support of my opinions, even while appropriately denouncing the fashion in which I made those posts.  Not one PM offering any form of support.  I can count on three fingers the number of people from here who supported me over the last ten days.

If not for the loving support of my husband and therapist, the past ten days would most probably not have been tolerable for me.   

So that is where I am.  I love this forum and I believe in the mission and I understand the need to maintain some order, yet my treatment cut me to the core as I expected better from a place that I have tirelessly supported for the past four years.  Again, I was not seeking special treatment, just fair treatment.  Regardless, I was ejected from the forums when I needed you most and I fear returning and baring my soul, only to have it all taken away again, by the click of a mouse.

I am not sure, but I do not think that I am willing to risk this happening again.

I remain at a crossroads and I am reminded of a dear friend who advocates that “You never give your power away, for then you get to watch the ones you gave it to, use it.” 

I no longer trust this forum to support me when I need it most.  I believe my 7-day TO was issued from a place of anger and I was told it was changed to ensure that all the TOs issued were consistent.  At a time when my mental illness prevented me from the appropriate responses I was tossed from the forum.  I believe I deserved better treatment from this forum and this remains my issue.

I have no intention of arguing with anyone about my viewpoint.  I just thought you deserved an explanation as to why I am no longer posting.

[Jody]

Hi Joe...When I think back to the earlier days of these forums, you and the support you have given to so many, including myself, comes to mind...I've been busy of late with issues regarding work and a little cold and haven't been posting as much as I would have liked...But I would hate to see you discontinue posting...I'm sorry I didn't come out and support you recently, it has been a bit heartbreaking to view the problems here lately, the good still outshines the bad, and I hope you will remain here for the long run.

Jody

[skeebo1969]

   Joe,

       I know I am probably the very last person you want to see in this thread and would not be surprised if you cannot see my response due to the ignore feature.

       The timeouts were unfortunate and I am sure it was not an easy one made by the moderators, but with that said what options do they really have?   It's kinda of like a boss who has to fire his favorite employee, not saying they play favorites, but Joe you are well respected here no matter what you think.   Don't let this battle with Danny, Trish, and John diminish one ounce of why you are here.   Don't let assholes like myself diminish that either.

       Joe you are the bigger man here and this post just affirms that, but we do have to take some responsibility for when are wrong... No matter how or who instigated us.

       It does bother me though...  why the 7 day timeout, but maybe we should and could just look past that..  Joe you have way to many valuable friends here that love you, don't lose sight of that.   They gain knowledge and insight through your experiences, I know I have.

       Joe do me a favor,   Please?!

        Let the guard down....  let the love in and feel better about this situation.  It will serve you far better than harboring any ill feelings... you don't need that my friend...

        Joe...  honestly you are in my thoughts and I'm worried..

       Thomas

[heartforyou]

Joe,

I love you.
I know what depression does to a person. Believe me, I know you have been a victim of it.

I have been" shelling" myself lately, but I try to come out anyway.

Your thoughts, views, help and advice have been of incredible help to so many, including me.

You can always count on my unconditional support.

And know that I speak for so many others.

Hermie

[David_CA]

Joe,

I'm not trying to instigate anything but only tell my observations.  First, I've never thought you to be especially compassionate or a 'warm personality' on the forums.  In Montreal, however, both you and Stephen were funny, a lot of fun to be around, and seemed nice.  Once we returned from Montreal, for whatever reason, you don't seem to be the same person at the AMG but instead the Joe that I had disagreed with many times prior (to meeting in person). 

True, you've often given support, information, and help to others.  It seems that when others don't agree with you, or you disagree with their behavior or statements, you get really upset about them. 

Instead of you losing the support of the forums, or the forums losing you, perhaps you can be a bit more selective in terms of which threads you choose to participate.  I'm very opinionated and tend to be argumentative; I've seen you demonstrate similar traits.  They're not necessarily bad traits, but just have to be watched so we don't say things we don't mean.  I stay out of a lot of 'discussions' for this reason.

I've not been as active lately as I would have liked, but that's due, in part, to these panic attacks.  I asked for help and support, and I received help and support.  I didn't see where you mentioned issues you were having, except in passing like you did in this post.  Maybe you did, but I didn't see any posts asking for help.  I'm sure that you know that if you'd started a new post, told what what issues you were having, etc, you would have received as much help and support as you needed.  You know that as much as folks fight here, they support each other even more.

Maybe it would help for many of us to click on our own profile, and click on "Show the Last Posts of this Person" and read our own posts.  Sometimes, if we actually read/ hear what we've said, it's not so difficult to understand why others responded like they did.

It sounds like you've got a grip on what's bothering you and that you have a good support system.  I know that you can handle a few cat fights here on line.  Just relax a bit and don't take them so personally.  Take care.

David

[Lisa]

Hi Joe,
I didn't come out publicly to say anything at the time, because I thought it would be viewed as piling on. I do love you, and I was sad to see how things devolved.
I do understand your frustration though.

I had a long phone conversation the other day with Lisbeth. She had been so very sick for so long, and had just emerged back into the forums again. She had been receiving vile PM's, and did report them, but was also given a week TO, as you had.
She was really hurt, and I was in tears, on the phone with her. I encouraged her to come and state what she was feeling, but she was lingering on the side of throwing in the rag.
You were one of the first people to reach out to me when I first joined the forums. Your advice, and encouragement was/is invaluable to me. When I spoke with you on the balcony in Montreal, I could see your kind heart, as it was on your sleeve.

I know you have problems with depression, and to be quite truthful, my own depression is not entirely well controlled, so I understand why you would be a tad more inhibited to bare your real feelings here. You have been even braver than I, because I am still a wee bit wary of really telling it like it is most of the time.I have been to some really dark places a few times too.

I really believe that those TO's were given out of utter exasperation, and now that more level consideration has been given, I also feel that Tim, Peter, Andy, and Ann, would have to see blatant behaviour before taking such a tragic measure.

I really believe that you, and lisbeth had to be lumped in with the others, so that it covered all of the bases, to put an immediate end to the situation as it was.

Perhaps the others will be contented finally with their other website, and things around here can get back to being the great place it is/always has been. Your sage advice is needed here, because I don't have the willing patience you do. My own mood has been of the 'get over yourself' kind of thought process, with small bursts of helpfulness.

I just couldn't imagine coming here, and not seeing you around. I am already greatly saddened by the absence of one of my other favorite friends. I would ask that you think forward, and not look/dwell on what has already passed. I have always been a great proponent of clean slate, start overs.(do overs)

I have held you in my arms, and looked you in the eyes. I know you care.(Lisbeth, and Joe) Let's take up the sword, and move forward from here.

I love you both, and think the world of your collective experiences.
Do not throw in the towel.
Do not let a moment of time to influence your creative contributions here.

Lisa

[MSPspud]

Joe, I am sorry I didn't publicly support what you were trying to say, but like Lisa I didn't want to contribute to the piling up mentality.  I will restate my opinion in saying you should continue to contribute and not let setbacks on here cut all ties with the community created.  God knows I would have left a long time ago if I let a lack of responses inhibit me from being here.  For a good part of the first year I felt like the invisible poster.  With that said, I kept the faith that someone, somewhere was reading what I wrote and agreeing.  Sometimes support is not immediate, but in the long run you'll get more out of here than if you buried your head in the sand.  This site should be part of your support network.

[AlanBama]

Joe,

You have been a big source of support and inspiration to me personally, and I appreciate your contributions here and in the blogs.

This whole 'time out' fiasco has been a nightmare, as far as I'm concerned.   I do not understand why you received a 7 day time out the first time, that does not seem right.

I hope we can put it all behind us, and move forward.   

Love,

Alan

[Joe K]

I suppose I will be responding to this post periodically as many of your comments are dear and of interest to me.

Jody, please don't allow my hurt to change how I feel about you.  You are a tender soul and I appreciate all that you have done for me and this forum.

Thomas, I do not have anyone on ignore and I certainly appreciate your comments as they surely come from your heart.  I have no issue with you or anyone here, I am just expressing my own situation as best I can.

Herman, as always your words touched me.  Thank you.

David, Your comments really cut me to the quick and I appreciate your candor.  I had no idea that I came off so coldly at times as I really try to stay focused on the thread content.  You have given me some real food for thought and I know you provided this as constructive criticism and for that I especially thank you.  I have never professed to be perfect and I would hate to think that my attitude has detracted from some of my posts.

Lisa dear, I harbor no ill will against anyone here and I do understand and accept what surrounded the TOs and that is why I say that this remains my issue.  All I hope is that readers would agree that while my method may have been lacking, my heart remained in the right place.

MS, this forum is part of my support system because I do not have a lot of options for support.  The reason I am so hurt is that I fear losing this forum and I was very uncomfortable with being lumped in with posters who have been banned.

Alan, I agree with putting this behind everyone.  I am just having a problem with the moving forward part, but thanks for the sentiments.  You are a very dear man.

[pozguy75]

This is what I get for not logging in more often!

Joe,

My God man, what the hell has been going on...nevermind...it doesn't matter. What matter's is this and the most disturbing is that you feel that you have lost the supportive, nurturing, safe environment here. That is both sad and quite frankly a bit angering.

Joe, you aren't the only one here that has felt this over the past few months. I came to this site well over a year ago, and you were one of the first people to say hello...goodness you even reprimanded me on one occasion...I remember that all too well. It was due to some political conversation and I devolved into something not seen outside of a swamp...but you snapped me out of it!

I will not even pretend to know what you are going through with depression, as I do not or have not experienced it. I can though empathize with the situation and what you may be feeling today. I am very happy to learn that you have found your center and working your way back there, and I am also happy to see that you have taken the situation head on and dealing with it. However, back to the issue at hand here...

The flame wars have become increasingly vile over the past several months, which is one reason why I took a hiatus from the forums...but it disturbs me greatly to see that people do not feel safe in this space anymore.

In this world that we navigate, those of us with HIV/AIDS have to navigate lightly sometimes, but this place should be a place where we can vent, cry, and express ourselves with out judgement. If our space doesn't feel safe anymore, then what is the point of this place existing??

Instead of infighting amongst ourselves, we need to establish a community, albeit, communities have their issues from time to time...and lord knows, how opinionated I am...but we all share a commonality that unites us...and we MUST have this place to feel safe and learn from each other.

Joe, I love you, and support you! You are a rock here, and I need your guidance more than you know!

[anniebc]

Dearest Joe

You know how I feel about you..if it wasn't for you I wouldn't be here.

I put up my first post in May 2003 and you were the first one to answer me, and from that day to this you have encouraged me and supported me..you have always been there for me when I needed you, I will never give up on you and I will never turn my back on you...I don't always put my feeling out there in public, there are some things I like to keep private, and my love for you and stephen is one of those things...but today I just needed you to know that.

Love and hugs always
Jan

[RAB]

Joe

As I said to you previously I can understand all the emotions you are experiencing and how you feel unable to move forward.  At some point however, you and only you, can allow yourself to let go of that which is holding you in the place you're in.  When you are ready to do that--you will.  Expressing your feelings in this thread is a good way, I feel, to help make that transition.

The only other thing I can add beyond what others have already expressed, is that as painful and difficult as the 7 day time out was, it seems to me that you are now under a self-imposed time out, and I'm not sure that serves any purpose what-so-ever. 

RAB

[OzPaul]

Joe

Thanks so much for opening up your heart to us again. Many have spoke before me and I can see that they have some valid points and some good advice as well.

I simply write to you  today to say welcome back. I look forward to reading your insights and see the passion for which you live. I too like you have a mental illness, I have  Bi-polar disorder. It has been and sometimes is a difficult road. I admire you're willingness and heart to be so out in the world with your story.

I'm glad to hear your voice again

Paul

[Andy Velez]

Joe, I'm actually expecting positive things to come out of the difficulties we have been dealing with of late.

You have much to contribute here as well as to benefit from. It can be very difficult to let go of hurt and resentment. Hopefully expressing things that you have in this thread will help you to get past what has been a painful time for you.

There's obviously a lot of very affirmative stuff that has been expressed to you here by good companions. While being mindful of the past and learning from it, I urge you to think big, grab on to the good of now and keep rocking along with us, buddy.

Cheers,

[Life]

Joe... I for one am glad you talked to me last year Christmas, and pulled me from the fire... 

[Eldon]

Hey Joe,

Truly there is a time when each and every one of us comes to that fork in the road. Sometimes we stand there for a moment to contemplate if we are making the right "choice" or not. Due to our external anxieties, it tends to cloud our inner self which is the ultimate part of our very being which makes that "choice" on which road you will travel on during your "journey" in this life.

Truly it is sometimes difficult to see clearly down either of these roads. A good example is like wearing a pair of dirty sunglasses. However, you know from within you where you heart resides and where you would like for it to be. If you take care of your support system, it will take care of you. In fact, there is a lot that you have to share with each and every one of us.

In short, try not to allow your external anxieties (uncontrollables) cloud your "decisions" and your otherwise "positive feedback" that you have regarding situations. When faced in the moment of animosity, take a step back, breathe, sharpen your perspective, and approach it from a different angle.

In this life, each and every one of us are presented with a different set of circumstances to be addressed and dealt with. How it is dealt with solely depends on you and your "choices" from within you.  I wish you the BEST for your health's circumstances and the "choices" that you have to make along your "journey" in this life.

One thing that I have found considerably helpful is to start a personal journal of your life's daily events. Inside of this journal it is your own personal haven where you can write out your thoughts and you will see certain patterns or other areas that you could focus on for further development. Writting is therapeutic as it also brings a certain balance to you as well.

Make the BEST of each Day!

[Lis]

I thank you Joe for all that you have done for me..  stephen, i thank you as well..

[Biggums]

Joe,

I know we haven't talked much on here.  I guess I haven't reached out as much as I should.  At times I seem to be barely hanging on myself with the depression I go through.  I do know that I don't agree with alot of what you have to say......lol......but I can tell you that means alot to me.  I do not want a forum where everyone is a boot kisser.  I know your posts challenge my thinking at times even if I don't agree with all of them, and for that I am glad you are here.  Folks like you and Matty and others sharpen me.  I feel bad that at some point the discussions went from logic to real personal.  I sensed you were hurt to the core, not because of someone disagreeing with you, but because you felt belittled and disrespected.  I think we all know that feeling and how bad it sucks.  I just want you to know I am glad you are here and I learn from you too.  Don't stop posting.

[Moffie65]

Joe,

Well well, I have to answer here, mainly because I consider you a friend, and much more.

I read this post yesterday, and it pretty much haunted me to the point that I am really having a difficult time saying what I want to say.

I have been blessed to have you in my life, and to finally meet you in Toronto, and then the followup in Montreal; well, it has been such a joy to have the privilege to share a part of my life with you. 

Something that few here actually know about you is that you are such a nice and soft man in your core.  Your caring spirit is so very refreshing in this day of curt, and ready made answers to everything.  You have a way of relating to so many here, and yet, still remain Joe Killfoile in your way of living and observing the world around you.  Your very butch demeanor and looks I am sure put some off when they meet you, but I have to say, it is your spirit that is so very beautiful in my book.  The way you open up and allow people to see not only the very strong and handsome Joe, but also the vulnerable and caring Joe at the same time; well, it is just so very beautiful to witness.

I cannot tell you to either turn left or right at this very crucial crossroads, but I think that with this post, you have opened a few eyes to the real traumas and trials that this very virtual space brings to people who are dedicated to this work, and at the same time, attempt to give back to the HIV community in tangible ways that few are really capable of.  You are the rock.  I miss the days that used to be here, but I know for all of us that the past days and the way that this forum used to work can return, but it will take an effort from all of us together to really make that happen.  I am not sure if any of us are disposable here, but I do know that when people of quality join in the conversation, that what follows is quality conversation.  You for one, have always brought a very high level of quality to this web address, and I just want you to know in your heart that you have helped so very many to understand the darkness of an HIV diagnosis.  That is what they say is "Priceless".

Frankly Joe, I will miss your posts, but that is a totally selfish observation on my part.  To think that you are going to sell your home in Florida, and move to Montreal, the location of the Wedding that you so very generously shared with all the members here; and all of it will happen without us being able to share with you, just gives me a feeling of such loss.  I hope you can see your way clear to find that brightness that this forum and site brought you and all of us, and can re-spark that light and then be able to feed it. 

Now, go have fun with those oh so nice shorts with your husband.  You know what I am talking about, and I will be checking in with you on a fairly timely basis.

In so Very Much Love,

[Terry]

Joe,

Part of my quote from Dachshund thread “Your Thoughts On Time Outs?”

It seems to me that now the theme in here is, a person will post a new topic and then the few (Flamers) take over and attack another person that responds to that thread. Feeding their huge egos and lacking any kind of respect for other members or for that matter the moderators who are then viciously attacked over and over. Insultingly, they are referred to as Goderator's.
Some people have been given TO because they spoke up to the offending flamers.
Some have been given TO defending their honor. “Which in my opinion is so very wrong.”


I for one, feel that I did speak up in yours and Lisbeth defense. I didn’t find it necessary to use your names; after all it would take an idiot not to know whom I was referring to. I didn’t send you a pm for I very seldom use pm’s.

I’ve gotten use to the fact that some people just don’t care about others or what pain that they maybe suffering/enduring. It’s all about them. You’re an inspiration to many people. That in it self should help you cope with your everyday demons.

[Cliff]

I'm not sure how things will shake out, but I don't think the forums are served by anyone leaving.  As much as you and I have bumped heads, Joe.  I've never once wished you were gone.  The way I see it, those that I generally bump heads with, we disagree on about 10% of things and see eye to eye on 90%.  It's just that the 10% overshawdows the 90% sometimes. 

It was nice to finally put some faces and real-life personalities to the user names.  It was nice to see people in a different light.  It's very easy to get caught up in the emotions of the forums, and fail to take a step back and put things into perspective.  Like David said, some people (me included) are born opinionated.  Sometimes we just have to learn when to recognize a dead horse.

My hope is that all will be forgiven and forgotten between everyone, but maybe that's not meant to be.  Whatever happens, I hope people will find some peace of mind. 

[Teresa]

Joe,

Even though we have not had much if any interaction on these forums, you have helped me get through these past 6 months. I don't know if that means anything to you but it has meant an awful lot to me. It would be a shame if you didn't post here anymore as you have alot to offer, especially for people like me, who didn't know much about HIV/Aids until it slapped us in the face.

Hugs
Teresa

[Razorbill]

I respect joe's decision and think it is for the best.

[Iggy]

.

[aztecan]

Joe,
l have always thought of you as stalwart and supportive. Whether I agreed with an opinion you expressed or didn't, I always knew it came from the heart.

The compassion you have shown me has helped in many ways. Perhaps I should have voiced this earlier.

Please know, whatever path you choose, my feelings and support for you won't change.

HUGS,

Mark

[DancerBoy]

John, Trish and Danny were able to go to their other forum at AIDS2HIV where they had all the support they needed.  Meanwhile Lis and I we were simply left twisting in the wind for 7 days.

Joe,
     You are both registered over there as well, and there is no reason you couldn't turn to that group as well. To not go over and find support from many of the old members that used to be here (Jonathan, fran, etc...) was your own choice. 
    At any rate, I don't want to argue or exchange words. Just though I'd let you know.  I also think a lot of the time outs were unjust.  You shouldn't have gotten a week... Neither should Trish. It was her first time out as well. It's a matter of consistency.  I'd already discussed my words and actions with one mod before another had a diva fit and timed everyone out... This time out system will never work unless they are consistent... However, that's for the other thread. 
     Joe, this has always been a place that all of us came to for support and friendship... I hope that we can all get past our differences and that Aidsmeds will continue to be just that for all of us.
-D

[david25luvit]

Joe....

              Like others here have said I believe you have been a rock for a lot of people here on the forum.  There were times when you and I didn't agree on things
and that's ok....  Part of being an individual means sometimes disagreeing on issues.  I have read many things you've written either in your blog or in response to a
thread and your own threads.  Most of the time I have found you to be intelligent and articulate and genuine...so please don't stop posting here on the forum.  I have
discovered that what we say and the things we do affect many people ...not just ourselves.  By denying those of us here your insight and your experiences...you are in
a sense "punishing us" for having your feelings hurt.   Trust me when I say you've hurt my feelings too but I don't believe you did it out of spite...and there were a few
times when I felt like I was being attacked from all sides.  After I thought about it and gave it serious thought I realized I was WRONG so I've tried to keep my rhetoric
down a peg or two.

         In Montreal I tried to express (in my own way) my appreciation for you being there for me after David died and make no mistake you were....like many here you were very supportive and I can't begin to express my gratitude for your kind words and suggestions....  Don't be so quick to give up on us......I haven't given up on YOU!
I believe you are a valuable member of this forum and I hope you'll reconsider posting again.   NO.  I won't always agree with you but I respect your right to voice your opinion and I think you look great in LEATHER.