Borzel, you can learn absolutely nothing about where your hiv infection really stands with only three test results in only three months time.
You certainly cannot use that same data in that same time frame to decide if supplements are doing a darn thing to influence your hiv or your body's reaction to it one way or another.
Tracking this infection is about trends over time - and three months isn't much time at all. It's a mere drop in the time continuum.
But good luck with the Atripla.
Thanks for the clarification, Ann & Hellraiser.
I still think that 19,000 -> 4,000 is a significant drop for VL. So those who wants to stay off ARV may keep this example in mind. I am clearly of the opinion that ARV is the way to go - but supplements may offer a longer time period for those who want to wait.
You just happen to have a genetic configuration that allows you to control the virus. Most people do not have it. Therefore extrapolating your experience on others who aren't blessed with your genes is pointless. The specific condition that led to your control of the virus is not lifestyle but genes. Not that hard of a concept to grasp really.
I never said that people should eat supplements until they die off AIDS (as can be inferred from your reference to history).
You're right, the title was misleading, I changed it. I did not mean to convey that supplements work like therapy - only help some people fight the virus.While most here know that I am a huge supporter of organics, and other nutritional modifications in one's diet to help keep the immune system strong, it is not to fight the virus. It is to support our immune response, in fighting off anything else that might reduce the effectiveness of HAART, and give the virus an upper hand. The theory is that keeping chemicals used in growing our food out of our systems helps in keeping us healthier, as they are not terribly good for our immune systems that are also facing the chemicals we ingest to assist in keeping the virus controlled, IE. HAART.
Been there, done that......and they didn't make any difference on my CD4's or VL.This is a classic - "It hasn't worked for me, thus it's useless" mentality. Like I said - I think that supplements seem to work for some percent of population. To others they do squat. I'm sorry that you are in the squat camp. Everybody has to find for themselves whether this works. I didn't get the information on these supplements out of thin air - it was these very forums. Someone said that acyclovir saved their life, other person swears by astragalus tea. Another found bitter melon to help.
I know you never said that - you're saying that supplements can help someone stay off the meds for longer based on your (VERY brief) experience. I brought up my own experience to show that I could just as easily claim - with much longer experience - that smoking, drinking, staying up late and not exercising (I don't do any of that to excess, except maybe smoking) could help someone stay off meds too.
I brought up the little mini-history lesson to point out that we have the experiences of those who went before who already discovered that it doesn't make a difference. Hence my reinventing the wheel remark.
What you don't seem to understand is that your VL change isn't really all that great and most likely would have occurred even if you didn't bother with the supplements. I've had my VL go up and down over the years, sometimes with changes like yours, with no effort on my part. It's just the way of untreated hiv.
To claim correlation between your supplements and your VL change - after a mere three months - is just fooling yourself. But like Grasshopper says, if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.
Just don't go stating as fact that the supplements are directly responsible for your VL change - they're not.
I find it highly unlikely that VL would drop so much.
I'll reference only study that got me started on this path: Gut-Shielding Mix Slows CD4 Drop in People Not Taking Antiretrovirals http://www.actions-traitements.org/spip.php?article3053
mecch post: "Just consider: this could seem a bit snide to those who read these forums and struggle to get HAART. Not that you meant it that way. "Exercise works, but I decided to have liposuction and my stomach stapled." That sort of thing. I had friends and boyfriends and without HAART, nothing "worked" and some of them therefore died before HAART was around. Other people have said this, but it bears repeating and to be given respect."
If my message is read and taken under consideration by one person who can not get HAART I will feel like I've succeeded immensely. Simply because I collected in one place what I consider to be the most effective bunch of natural remedies (only one screwup - Licorice - should be taken off the list).
However - most people here seem to have access to HAART - so it's more to those who want to prolong the time before they start. I, myself, was in that position until I learned more about the disease. I scoured these forums to find the supplements that can help.
..... I didn't get the information on these supplements out of thin air - it was these very forums. Someone said that acyclovir saved their life, other person swears by astragalus tea. Another found bitter melon to help.
Unless one can state - taking supplement XXX is dangerous for the following reason, I don't see a reason to NOT try.
And that is why a drop in viral load is measured on a logarithmic scale, i.e a noticeable drop (or noticeable rise) would be measured in several logs, or several thousands.
If that is the case then 19k may just have been a 'high' sample, and 4k a 'low' sample.
I find it highly unlikely that VL would drop so much.
Yes. There are a couple people here who can talk about logs in such a way that even a mathamatically deficient person like me can understand, but I can never remember who they are. It sounds like you've got the basic idea though. That's what I've been trying to tell him without the math jargon - simply put, his VL decrease isn't as spectacular as he seems to think. If I remember correctly (and I might not) his decrease would be describes as about half a log.
I took a multivitamin for a while, but stopped and I've never noticed a difference one way or another. I try to get my vitamins from the food I eat. As Moffie alluded to earlier, most oral vitamin supplements aren't really properly absorbed. Vitamins in food are much more easily taken up by the body.
Nonsense. Utter nonsense.
I've been poz for 13 years, never taken ARVs. I smoke far too many cigarettes. I love my whiskey. Aside from walking, I don't do any exercise. I don't eat a lot of junk food, but my diet isn't anywhere near as healthy as it could/should be. I refuse to waste my money on a load of supplements that have never been proven to do anything.
And yet I don't need ARVs and probably won't for a while yet.
So going by your rationale, I should be telling people to live the kind of lifestyle I do and they can maybe stay off ARVs for longer? I don't think so.
How about learning some of the history of your disease, including all the people who tried every supplement they could get their hands on, who ate all the right foods, drank all the right teas, exercised, you name it and yet hiv still killed them despite it all.
And then rethink your thread title "Supplements work". Do they bollocks. They only work to empty your wallet.
It's been a long time since I've dealt with logarithms but I'm pretty sure what they talk about with viral load is a logarithm base 10 change. That would mean any change of 10 to the first power (adding or subtracting a 0 to the end of the number) would be a 1 log up or down change.
The goal of my post is to educate someone like me two months ago. The fact that my VL dropped after I started this regimen - can be interpreted as one sees fit.
Personally I think people diagnosed today rush into treatment way too quickly without giving their bodies a chance to show whether they might be a slow or long-term non progressor.
That said, I think you missed or maybe misunderstood my original point. I am not suggesting that people buy expensive supplements that are advertised to be an alternative to HAART. I merely put together a list of cheap supplements that can prolong HAART-free time for some individuals based on the information found on this forum.
The only thing is we don't want someone eschewing meds in favor of supplements in a misguided attempt to stay healthy "naturally" because the cold hard truth of the matter is meds save lives and supplements do not.
But what we're telling you is that taking supplements is not going help you delay the day when you need to start treatment. If the genetic makeup of you and your virus is such that you're going to progress at a rate of XYZ, then you're going to progress at a rate of XYZ. Supplements or no supplements.
You want to educate people who are new to this virus, but maybe you should wait until YOU are no longer new to this virus and understand more fully how it operates. All you're doing with this supplement schtick is giving people false hope.
Catty pointless comment acknowledged.
Point in responding - nil.
Keep up the good work. Every forum needs a troll.
borzel,
Here is the study with selenium:
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/2/148
It's a good adjunct therapy, however, not to replace ART. Too much selenium can cause problems, however, if you stay within the 200-400mg range, it can be beneficial.
v
Your body needs a balanced amount of vitamins and minerals to function properly. The proper way to get these, is to eat varied and balanced meals. Because we don't always have access to these nutrients, it's advisable to take a multi-vit & minerals to compensate for possible dietary imbalances.
During winter months when we don't have an abundance in variety of fresh fruits and vegetables, I take a commercial brand multi-vit-min tablet.
Besides that, my ID doc has me on prescription CalciChew for low vit.D & Calcium levels, and on prescription B-complex for anemia.
The only thing he prescribes me for hiv is HAART.
If....if a regular dose of vitamins & minerals can "slow down" hiv progression....as you are implying..wouldn't a mega- super-mega dose eradicate hiv ??? Wouldn't that be a cheaper option to HAART ?
Oh bullshit.I know I give you wood, sorry it manifests itself this way.
Your reasoning is totally flawed and you fucking know it.
MtD
No, my reasoning is not flawed. If you want to think that nothing but HAART can help with HIV (and by help I mean slow down its progress) - that's your prerogative. If others want to research the topic and decide for themselves what they can do before they initiate treatment - I think they ought to be encouraged in the least. I merely put together a list of substances that I found to be beneficial. Everybody can google 'substance X hiv' and avail themselves of the information on the topic. If they find the combination of Cost + Negative-Effects + Potential for Help with Virus worthwhile - let them take it.
You merely seem to bring to the table negativity. I know I bust your balls with my views on other issues, but try to keep in mind that this is also an informational resource for others, not just your own little playground.
Lots of things give me wood, so don't get too excited.
Your problem is this:
"I have taken a combination of nutrients/vitamins/other crap and subsequently my viral load decreased."
Post hoc ergro propter hoc or "because of this therefore this".
It's common for people to think that because one event precedes another the first event must be the cause of the second. Even intelligent folks fall for it, but more often it's people such as yourself.
Cheers,
MtD
I know quite a few people here have experienced drops in VL out of blue. But these people are also usually somehow resistant to the virus and have various degrees of LNTP-sness. For a regular individual (who I suspect myself to be) a sudden VL drop is just unlikely. It's possible - I fully accept it - but in my opinion unlikely. Therefore, the fact that I started taking a plethora of various substances known to help immune system fight HIV, and the contemporaneous drop in VL to me exhibits a possible link.
It's also possible that I have been containing the virus all along - since I have not infected my wife despite living with her for 18 months following my infection, and that the march reading was a blip that coincided with my diagnosis.
Do I insist it's the only explanation? No. But it's just more likely than the other.
If we revisit the basic graph, you'll see a more or less straight red line going up. It's not a sinusoid. There just isn't a logical reason for a (regular not ltnp) body to suddenly get efficient at killing the virus.
In any event this is all irrelevant. There's no clinical difference between a VL of 19,000 and a VL of 4,000.
Borzel, do you really believe that none of us have studied this? Have studied these things at length?
So you really believe that a three-month sample id adequate to form a reasonably scientific-based opinion?
Some of us came along well before HAART therapy, and trust me, we looked at everything. Thanks to Anti-viral therapy, we are still here. Not thanks to selenium. of Colloidal Silver (which I can only imagine is your next stop) or drinking hydrogen peroxide. Ask us.... yes, US .... how many people were seriously injured thanks to overdosing on vitamins, when the mega-vitamin thing was all the rage.
Or... don't. And keep the forum appraised. At the very least, you can serve as another object lesson in quackery and it's very real, very serious impact on people.
It's just sad that every year or two, we have to see this.
I found the story I alluded to in my previous post. When the vitamins/supplements are properly made, I'm sure most people will do fine on them and they may even work for some people. However, this is disturbing. Read down to where they talk about selenium having 200x the recommended dose. Since the FDA only looks at prescriptions, these supplements can have many issues with no oversight.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/10/many-natural-supplements-_n_213670.html
Supplements are only good to prolong the time before one starts it.
Once again, there is no definitive proof that this is true. You keep accusing everyone of missing your point, but you are missing ours.
THERE IS NO DEFINITIVE PROOF THAT USING SUPPLEMENTS WILL DELAY THE NEED FOR HAART.
Hello hello? Information literacy please.
Ok for the selenium study to give a minor support for the idea that supplements help in certain cases.
The gut thing is NOT peer review, medical journal, and "Acyclovir" is, as we have all agreed, not a "supplement".
However I'm sure you can contact Jon Kaiser and have many insightful and not at all crazy conversations about the value of supplementation for HIV+ people.
You got off on the wrong foot in this thread and raised the ire and incredulousness of several members. You subsequently accepted toned down hyperbole for your "eureka" discovery when history shows millions have already passed that gold rush about supplementation and gone home the poorer.
But you continue defending your Eureka moment and thats getting under people's skin. Though, I admire your tenacity! I just don't think you're going to get anyone to agree, at least not in this section of the Forums. Maybe there are more brethren for you in Nutrition & HIV and Research News.
OK; you've been doing some serious research on line, and I admire your proactive attitude. But.....what does your doctor has to say about the subject ? Does he agree with you that the use of vitamins can slow down the HIV progression and protect the CD4's from HIV attacks ? Does he prescribe the use of vitamins to all his positive patients who are not yet on HAART ?
Do you care to enlighten me with the views of your ID doctor ? Afterall he is the professional and expert on the subject.
I find that there is quite a bit of 'conventional wisdom' propagated on the forums that certain members like to "enforce" by making their views vociferously known. I agree with quite a few of these opinions, but not all. I also happen to have a contrarian streak that refuses to accept knowledge as dogma - I probe, research and find things out for myself.
Your argument that supplements work for some but not others just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. If I had been taking supplements, I could claim they were the reason behind my 13 med free years living with this virus. But I haven't been taking them and I still have 13 med free years. If I had been on supplements, my claims would have been erroneous.
And you've only been dealing with this for three months. Hell, I've spent more than three months total just reading about this virus and how it works. But if you want to tell me that you know more than me, be my guest.
I fully grant that you spent more time learning about the disease. However, your adamant refusal to accept conclusions of scientific research I pointed out highlights a certain deficiency in reasoning, where a person can not accept new facts that clash with their existing worldview. This leads to dogmatic approach to problems as opposed to flexible, facts-based one.
;D
Oh that's rich. :)
If nothing else I like to think of the service we do your wife. At least when you're online braying at us it gives that poor bedevilled woman a few hours peace.
MtD
Good luck drinking water
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16614865/
Borzel, you are getting obtuse now, and making your own arguments shallow in the extreme. Don't you think it is time to maybe accept that you made an erronious postulation and leave it at that?
Easy dude.. you're the one who's taking those pills, and I don't see myself entering a water drinking contest like, er, ever.
Actually before clicking that link I thought it could be one of those stories about the nutty water fluoridation conspiracy.
Which postulation is that?
Don't you see the equivalence? You show me a story about some nut who overdosed on supplements (guy was taking steroids as well - just to illustrate the character involved), I show you another story about an idiot who died drinking too much water. Both stories are about one individual doing harm to their body by taking too much of what is otherwise reasonable susbtance.
Moreover - I have made it abundantly clear that I support early start of HAART and that supplements should only be used before one's CD4 count drops to a level that warrants starting it.
Therefore I find your example spurious and ill-fitting.
Which postulation is that?
Moreover - I have made it abundantly clear that I support early start of HAART and that supplements should only be used before one's CD4 count drops to a level that warrants starting it.
So here's the dealio.
You've elected to take the pills, which makes you just like the rest of us. Your viral load will soon hit undetectable and your CD4 count will rise in a commensurate fashion.
These things cannot be helped.
Nobody cares what you think about early treatment or the administration of decoction of milk-thistle as an alternative to HAART or whatever.
Why not be a nice chap, put the stick down and step away from the dead equine, eh?
MtD