S.E.X.

[walkingpoz]

Ever since my diagnosis in October 2011 I haven't had any sexual intercourse. On the one hand I don't wanna have sex with someone without them knowing about my status and on the other hand I'm worried that if I disclose my status to someone the word would spread in my city's gay community.

I don't mind telling people who I trust. I told my family and a few friends. I even told two guys after we had met a couple of times and they were cool with it and although we never got into a relationship (I never had one btw, despite me being hot and smart and stuff ) we're still friends.

I also read somewhere that one's undetectable viral load doesn't necessarily mean that there's no virus in the semen. I would never have unprotected sex (and never knowingly did) and I think the precum of someone who's UD is of negligible risk - please correct me if I'm mistaken.
But if one finds out about my status afterwards there's a good chance that he's really mad about that and if he contracts HIV from someone else he'll probably think he got it from me and I don't wanna get sued. That's another part of the reason why I don't feel comfortable having sex with someone whithout them knowing about my status.

But if I disclose my positivity to the wrong person and they tell others, then some guys are gonna have prejudices before even getting to know me personally and probably don't even want to get to know me.

Maybe some of you can empathize with my situation and tell me what they would do.

Thank you for reading this 

[jkinatl2]

I am curious as to why you would want to maintain a status in a community that would seemingly disown you if they knew your truth.

"Winning over" someone who would otherwise cast you aside sight unseen if he knew beforehand about your status seems exhausting - and like an uphill battle.

Honestly, wouldn't it be better to cultivate cooler friends?

[Pilot]

I have two friends who know and the rest do not in the gay community where I live and both of them have never said anything to anyone. On the other hand, I have met people and then had people come up and say you should stay away from them they are poz.  I normally reply how can you get HIV from talking to someone and who are you to out anyone and what if your just spreading a false rumor you obviously heard from some gossip. That usually works every time.

I did read a post from a guy in Canada who is upfront when he meets people and lets them know early on that he is poz and about 40% want nothing to do with him but the rest are fine with it.

I do not know if this will help you I am just trying to give you another way of looking at the situation. Personally if they are immediately turned off before getting to know you as the person you are then they are the ones who are missing out on meeting at the very least a new friend.

[mecch]

I am curious as to why you would want to maintain a status in a community that would seemingly disown you if they knew your truth.

"Winning over" someone who would otherwise cast you aside sight unseen if he knew beforehand about your status seems exhausting - and like an uphill battle.

Honestly, wouldn't it be better to cultivate cooler friends?

Walkinpoz, i agree with jkinatl2 - your situation is very complicated and you are putting a LOT of effort into thinking about the "what ifs" and consequences of a lot of things that are in the conditional, not the real.
I am SURE your sitution is awfully complicated, but it might be better for you personally (and for others - which I will explain in a moment) if you stopped worring about so much you can't control and start making your own life simpler.

Here are some other ways of looking at things:

Lets start with the fears based on criminalisation of HIV transmission and/or non-disclosure.  I guess you already did this - check to make sure the laws that you are afraid might exist, actually do exist in your locale.  No sense worrying about laws and punishments that don't exist. ANd if they do, youre smart not to fall into traps.

Secondly, since you are committed to safe sex, you aren't going to transmit. 

But you are worried a guy will get HIV from another person, but then blame YOU if you are the one known Typhoid Mary on the local circuit.  Well, thats pretty flippy reasoning.

Two things come to mind.  If, by chance, a number of gay people in the city knew you were HIV+, then you could also talk to people about HIV transmission and be including the information that "I always used condoms" and that "HIV transmission often happens when people assume their partners are negative, and its not the case, and especially when people don't even know they are HIV+."  And, you could repeat rather often, that you are surely NOT the only HIV+ person around your town.

So the second thing is, since you are willing to disclose HIV to some friends and your family, you personally might receive benefits to disclosing to gay friends (and their friends and so on) - i mean letting the word get out.  There ARE more people with HIV, surely.  And also, eventually this helps everyone chill after the news settles.  On the one hand, people might decide you are Typhoid Mary and the town pariah, but on the other hand, many people will just hear the news and eventually its just another fact about another person in their orbit.  It becomes mundane.

You are very convoluted about who will and won't consider dating you, based on when they know or don't know about your HIV, and in fact you can't manage any of that. 

But if you personally do NOT let HIV be a big scandal, to you personally, then other people can go along with that, with your thinking.  Not believing you have something to hide, or to protect yourself from others, or shame, or whatever, it gives strength of character, maturity, openness and pride - these are all ATTRACTIVE qualities that draw people to you.

[Ann]

I'm totally out about my hiv status and I find that those who have a problem with that are people I don't want in my life anyway. It's a great "asshole filter".

[walkingpoz]

I actually received quite a lot of positive feedback when I once disclosed my status in my profile on a gay website - of course without a picture of my face in there. People were interested and some wanted to meet me or called me "brave" because of the disclosure

So I also considered being totally out about it but I think right now I'm not ready for this. I have tried to put myself back into the situation before I got HIV to see what I would have done if I were someone who meets a positive person. And I think I would have done it like I said in my first post: that it's different if you know the status of a person before getting to know them or after you have gotten to know them. That's actually what I guy told me after I disclosed to him after we had known us a bit better.

[Iggy]

I won't tell you to be out about your status as only you can do that when you are ready.

I will say though that while being public about your status can seem scary it also has a number of benefits that I personally have appreciated. 

• When I was using hook-up sites (and lord knows I will again) no one I meet on there can claim I lied about my status
• On a related note you can find my status if you google my full name which also offers me some protection from false accusations that I lied about my status (I swear this worries me more in the South than it ever did in NY
• Being out in the community as well being out at work, to family and all means I never have to worry about dancing around subjects like my meds or doctor appointments.
• I met more people because I was out about my status

There are a host of other things I'm sure in your mind about being public about your status besides sex, but since sex is the thread title I'll stay with that issue. 

The last thought I will add is you began your thread stating you basically haven't had intercourse since your diagnosis and that you don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't know your status so I'm gonna suggest that you don't really have much to lose (sexual options) but everything to gain.

[emeraldize]

I'm totally out about my hiv status and I find that those who have a problem with that are people I don't want in my life anyway. It's a great "asshole filter".

What a lovely idea for a stocking stuffer -- an asshole filter.

[Jeff G]

I may need to change my asshole filter , Ive never changed it and I bet its quite full by now .

I like Ann's advice , seems relatively full proof to me .

[elf]

Ever since my diagnosis in September 2008 I haven't had any sexual intercourse.
 
It's always the same story.
A few dates...They say I'm cute and they like me...
I tell them about my status.
I get: Thanks, but no thanks.

So, I stopped dating.
I enrolled a yoga class instead.
Time better spent.

[mecch]

ELF - you have mentioned this lack of sex several times and not that this is your thread, or that you asked for comments, but since its sorta related to this threads theme - i don't think its all that great to go years without sex AND to have that lack of sex be related to HIV. 
I get that there is a lot of rejection.
I get that people can find themselves living is a place with pretty slim pickings as to who is willing to have sex with an HIV+ person.

But please please make sure you young ones are giving it "the college try" meaning at least making an effort to be open and hopeful that sex is a possibility.  Please make sure that one's HIV+ status and concomitant high rejection hasn't become an excuse, a stand in, for OTHER reasons that sex is not on the menu.

[Jeff G]

ELF - you have mentioned this lack of sex several times and not that this is your thread, or that you asked for comments, but since its sorta related to this threads theme - i don't think its all that great to go years without sex AND to have that lack of sex be related to HIV. 
I get that there is a lot of rejection.
I get that people can find themselves living is a place with pretty slim pickings as to who is willing to have sex with an HIV+ person.

But please please make sure you young ones are giving it "the college try" meaning at least making an effort to be open and hopeful that sex is a possibility.  Please make sure that one's HIV+ status and concomitant high rejection hasn't become an excuse, a stand in, for OTHER reasons that sex is not on the menu.

Your off your game aqualung , you forgot to ask him what hes wearing  .

[Raf]

ELF - you have mentioned this lack of sex several times and not that this is your thread, or that you asked for comments, but since its sorta related to this threads theme - i don't think its all that great to go years without sex AND to have that lack of sex be related to HIV. 
I get that there is a lot of rejection.
I get that people can find themselves living is a place with pretty slim pickings as to who is willing to have sex with an HIV+ person.

At least he tried, I don't even try to date or know someone since 2008 either..but well, I have some issues to face (including my paranoia with STIs and sex) so it's not a surprise.

[Ithappens]

I'm totally out about my hiv status and I find that those who have a problem with that are people I don't want in my life anyway. It's a great "asshole filter".

I'm like Ann and i use it as a great "asshole filter".  I tell you my status and then it's up to you whether you stay or go.  But along with that, based on the conversation, you'll know you can and cannot tell.

[walkingpoz]

I just got home from a gay party and in my time zone it's a few minutes before 7 a.m.

I met a guy there and he took me to his place and he wanted to have sex with me. But I got scared and didn't want to have any oral or anal so we only did some petting. Then he got tired and I left. I didn't tell him about my status since I didn't know him. So I didn't lose anything except of my shorts which were ripped.

Thought I'd just tell you that latest story 

Good night.

[Anqueetas]

At least he tried, I don't even try to date or know someone since 2008 either..but well, I have some issues to face (including my paranoia with STIs and sex) so it's not a surprise.

I also agree with you Raf, after everything that going, on the last thing is putting my health in further risk by contracting an STI. I will never ever have sex with anyone else, unless a full STI panel test is confirm and of-course the person also no my status. This take a high level of trust, so it probably going to take a long time for that to happen.

[Rockin]

I also agree with you Raf, after everything that going, on the last thing is putting my health in further risk by contracting an STI. I will never ever have sex with anyone else, unless a full STI panel test is confirm and of-course the person also no my status. This take a high level of trust, so it probably going to take a long time for that to happen.

This is incredibly and utterly depressing...no wonder HIV+ are so depressed. At the end of the day, we create our own prison around us.

[mecch]

Cher's advice from Moonstruck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-fkSYDtUY

[anniebc]

I'm totally out about my hiv status and I find that those who have a problem with that are people I don't want in my life anyway. It's a great "asshole filter".

My dear lady Ann thank you for my morning chuckle, you have a great way with words... .

I would be surprised if anyone in my comunity didn't know of my status, I came "out" so to speak pretty much the day was diagnosed, I know it's not easy, and I would never judge anyone for not feeling safe about coming out, but what really gets up my nose and on my tits is why do those who moan and groan about not having sex blame it solely on being HIV positive, maybe these people who reject you just don't like you, maybe you have BO or you just bore the hell out of them...ever think of that?

HIV doesn't change who you are, you do.

Jan

[Raf]

I also agree with you Raf, after everything that going, on the last thing is putting my health in further risk by contracting an STI. I will never ever have sex with anyone else, unless a full STI panel test is confirm and of-course the person also no my status. This take a high level of trust, so it probably going to take a long time for that to happen.

yup. My main issue, is with the STIs that can't be avoided with condoms, like syphilis. I prefer to not take any chances anymore, and if I can avoid with this all the nonsense of the rejections and disclosure, even better.

Ironically though, I'll have a syphilis screening the next year because I don't remember if I was screened for that when I was diagnosed back in 2008. It's strange that my doc didn't include this test along with the hep B and C screening I had the last year.

[jkinatl2]

This is incredibly and utterly depressing...no wonder HIV+ are so depressed. At the end of the day, we create our own prison around us.

Self loathing knows no status, apparently.

If caught early, an STI like syphilis can be easily and completely treated. Sex is one of the more fundamental parts of human nature. I wager these people drive in cars or take transportation, go to public places, and interact with others - all of which are remarkable dangerous things to do.

I'm thinking that this has next to nothing to do with HIV and more to do with an underlying mental illness that, if not addressed, may eventually prove fatal.

[Rev. Moon]

Ever since my diagnosis in September 2008 I haven't had any sexual intercourse.

At least he tried, I don't even try to date or know someone since 2008 either..but well, I have some issues to face (including my paranoia with STIs and sex) so it's not a surprise.

I also agree with you Raf, after everything that going, on the last thing is putting my health in further risk by contracting an STI. I will never ever have sex with anyone else, unless a full STI panel test is confirm and of-course the person also no my status. This take a high level of trust, so it probably going to take a long time for that to happen.

OEMGEE, I've also lived without any sex since like 2008.  This is however part of my goal to revirginize myself, not something that should blamed on HIV.  You girls make me rather sad.



This time I will have to be in agreement with Mecch: snap out of it.

[Raf]

lol rev, I thought you would put the "40 years old virgin" pic 

I stand by my choice of no sex, it's great not having to worry about STIs anymore (I have more than enough with teh aids, thanks. I don't want to add another trophy), no rejections, no akward disclosure and no akward after sex talk. all win for me.

The last february 14th my right hand proposed to me, what a romantic moment 

[Miss Philicia]

I find this thread amazing. I had tons more sex post-diagnosis than I did before I was infected. Get out an enjoy life.

Of course, in the past two years I've been on either crutches or one of those granny walkers so the only sex I've had is with a Brazilian on my monitor and my right hand. Generally it's quite satisfying.

edit: some people seem to have doctors who actually prefer that they don't have any sex. My doctor actually brings the subject up during visits and yells at me for NOT having sex. I have to remind him that I've had surgery three times in the past year and I really would find it hard to have sex when I'm constantly in physical therapy. But still, I appreciate his sex-positive attitude.

[Jeff G]

You young ones need to know there is a shelf life on your junk , use it or lose it .

[Miss Philicia]

You young ones need to know there is a shelf life on your junk , use it or lose it .

⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧

ps: once I'm feeling better with my feet I'm going to go sit on Aunti Doxie's large schlong and eat a Memphis BBQ sammich 

[Jeff G]

⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧ ⇧

ps: once I'm feeling better with my feet I'm going to go sit on Aunti Doxie's large schlong and eat a Memphis BBQ sammich 

He will sic his dog on you and eat your sandwich . Besides , I thought Willy was the only one who puts out for BBQ .

[Solo_LTSurvivor]

He will sic his dog on you and eat your sandwich . Besides , I thought Willy was the only one who puts out for BBQ .

What an oxymoron: Willy and large schlong in the same sentence 

[jkinatl2]

You young ones need to know there is a shelf life on your junk , use it or lose it .

Word. Some folks are going to have a long time to regret not being brave enough to seek out happiness.

[Rev. Moon]

What an oxymoron: Willy and large schlong in the same sentence 

He claims to have a big peepee, big guns, and abysmally tiny balls.

Here's my artistic rendition on La Guillermina, including a twink-style tank top, pencil-sized pecker, microscopic walnuts, a big gun of each kind to compensate for any shortcomings, and an Egyptian flavored taco in his left hand.  This work of art is completed by the elusive lipid panel scattered on the floor, waiting for the dog to eat it.

[walkingpoz]

I just got home from a gay party and in my time zone it's a few minutes before 7 a.m.

I met a guy there and he took me to his place and he wanted to have sex with me. But I got scared and didn't want to have any oral or anal so we only did some petting. Then he got tired and I left. I didn't tell him about my status since I didn't know him. So I didn't lose anything except of my shorts which were ripped.

Thought I'd just tell you that latest story 

Good night.

Why did no one comment on my drunk post? 

I'm totally out about my hiv status and I find that those who have a problem with that are people I don't want in my life anyway. It's a great "asshole filter".

Um, I'm not sure about that. I think it doesnt mean one's an asshole if they're just scared. Though it might often be the case...

You young ones need to know there is a shelf life on your junk , use it or lose it .

Oh, I hope not. 

[Jeff G]

Oh, I hope not. 

I'm not kidding . Things change for most people where sex is concerned as you mature and its not always for the worse , but rest assured things do change . I'm concerned about the high rate of STI in my area but that's not the reason I don't have the same sexual appetite I had at 20 or 30 .

For many people of a mature age the empathises changes from one of a purely sexual act to one of intimacy and for single people intimacy is much more difficult to find than just raw sex and is even better if you can find both in one partner .

I'm single and mostly hang out with friends and family and I am not to keen on going clubbing or hanging out online looking for MR right now . I ready for bed by 10:30 most nights and staying home seems much more of a good idea than going out . I would be happy to date someone if he came along but I'm not driven or distracted by the lure of gotta get laid like I used to be ... and I'm perfectly OK with it too .

So yes ... for lots of people your junk has a shelf life if you plan on using it as vigorously as you can as a young man . Its not that you cant when you get older , its a matter of do you want to .   

[jkinatl2]

I'll admit to being an outlier here. I'm heading relentlessly towards 47, and have recently discovered that I can go almost two days without sex. Three if you don't mind me being cranky.Trying to convince my bf that injection of healthy DNA will cure my head cold.

[wolfter]

I've been on crutches for several months now an I could easily figure out how to perform if given the opportunity.   I hope that shelf life thingy doesn't happen automatically at 50 since I'm just a few short years from there.

HELL, even in my AIDS days, I wanted and got sex almost every day.  Perhaps that was my magic bullet?

[mecch]

In The Sound of Music, our pure Sister Maria is so ashamed and all wet in the panties that she's attracted to the Commander, and he to her, that she runs back to the Convent and goes into seclusion.  The Mother Superior smells the hormones and calls her out of seclusion and persuades Maria to go back and see if her carnal desires will be fulfilled, giving her blessing for other kinds of love.  Maria goes back, they throw themselves in heat at each other, and she gets a completely different life than she imagined!

[Miss Philicia]

Egyptian flavored taco in his left hand.

According to his texts tonight he ate there again.

Billy A: Don't bother me I'm having Egyptian margaritas 4:22 PM
Me: omg -- seriously? Are you back at that dump again? Incredible. 4:24 PM
Billy A: Well most proper Mexican food places are closed on Sunday..catholic and all. But Egyptians are godless so they stay open on Sunday 4:26 PM
Me: Maybe I'll go get some REAL tacos from my neighborhood place, and go look at Christmas decorations on 13th St. 4:31 PM
Billy A: Did I mention I was at trans Siberian orchestra last night... In a private suite with open bar? 4:32 PM
Billy A: It was amazing, especially being able to look down/i] on the common people and laugh 4:34 PM

[leatherman]

I hope that shelf life thingy doesn't happen automatically at 50 since I'm just a few short years from there.

don't worry, it doesn't. 
The problem is finding someone to throw up into the sling every night.

[WillyWump]

He claims to have a big peepee, big guns, and abysmally tiny balls.

Here's my artistic rendition on La Guillermina, including a twink-style tank top, pencil-sized pecker, microscopic walnuts, a big gun of each kind to compensate for any shortcomings, and an Egyptian flavored taco in his left hand.  This work of art is completed by the elusive lipid panel scattered on the floor, waiting for the dog to eat it.

Haterz gonna hate the beautiful people

-Will

[tednlou2]

I'll admit to being an outlier here. I'm heading relentlessly towards 47, and have recently discovered that I can go almost two days without sex. Three if you don't mind me being cranky.Trying to convince my bf that injection of healthy DNA will cure my head cold.

Two days?  I last had sex on December 3rd.  It was November 3rd before that.  I remember for obvious reasons, but because it was exactly one month apart.  I guess I am a bitch to most, by now.      

[bloodtype]

You young ones need to know there is a shelf life on your junk , use it or lose it .

I've been abstaining since my diagnosis too, not out of fear but because I want to re-center myself, re-focus, and recover from my last relationship.

This advice has me reconsidering that point of view! True wisdom.

[Miss Philicia]

Jeff, are you shooting blanks already?

[Jeff G]

Jeff, are you shooting blanks already?

The body is still willing but patience is the key , without proper inspiration my trouser snake spends a little more time looking at the foot board of my bed instead of the head board like it used too .

[Miss Philicia]

Having sex with some other entity is irrelevant -- to keep oneself in proper functioning state you must maintain a steady masturbatory regimen.

[Jeff G]

Having sex with some other entity is irrelevant -- to keep oneself in proper functioning state you must maintain a steady masturbatory regimen.

You sound like my doc , she says the same thing . The last time I was in she abruptly asked me if I had been masturbating , I told her no because I was afraid she might walk in before I was finished .

[Denver Toad]

For many people of a mature age the emphases changes from one of a purely sexual act to one of intimacy and for single people intimacy is much more difficult to find than just raw sex and is even better if you can find both in one partner .

Here's a winner of a post. I'm over a half century old. None the less I still have the desire, the fire, and the ability. While wholly functional, I function at a less intense level than in years prior. Accepting that, I too look for a deeper and increasingly needed level of intimacy. It's not about spooning for hours on end, rather there's  more imaginative foreplay and afterglow.

Basically, getting over the hump of having to hump has enhanced the hump.

[coreFighter]

I'm trying to find balance myself. I went out with a guy, I really liked, but he said he couldn't date me because of my status.

But even though i've been dealing with some nutty health issues, you can't live in bubble wrap, you just can't. I'm not proud of my choices, but they are what make me whole. I also want find love some day. I just need to focus on my health first, then all things will follow, once I figure that out. I'll be okay.

[_dave_]

Ever since my diagnosis in October 2011 I haven't had any sexual intercourse. On the one hand I don't wanna have sex with someone without them knowing about my status and on the other hand I'm worried that if I disclose my status to someone the word would spread in my city's gay community.

I don't mind telling people who I trust. I told my family and a few friends. I even told two guys after we had met a couple of times and they were cool with it and although we never got into a relationship (I never had one btw, despite me being hot and smart and stuff ) we're still friends.

I also read somewhere that one's undetectable viral load doesn't necessarily mean that there's no virus in the semen. I would never have unprotected sex (and never knowingly did) and I think the precum of someone who's UD is of negligible risk - please correct me if I'm mistaken.
But if one finds out about my status afterwards there's a good chance that he's really mad about that and if he contracts HIV from someone else he'll probably think he got it from me and I don't wanna get sued. That's another part of the reason why I don't feel comfortable having sex with someone whithout them knowing about my status.

But if I disclose my positivity to the wrong person and they tell others, then some guys are gonna have prejudices before even getting to know me personally and probably don't even want to get to know me.

Maybe some of you can empathize with my situation and tell me what they would do.

Thank you for reading this 

No, no and NO!

Why would you disclose your HIV status to people?

I think that is something totally personal and private.

If you meet a guy and then you're gonna have sex , a condom should be used no matter if you disclose to him your positive HIV status or not. Even if you're negative, a condom should always be used. So I don't see the point on disclosing something SO PERSONAL to someone you probably just met and dont even know if that relationship is gonna grow up or if its going to fade and not work.

I have met several guys after I knew I was positive, and never disclose my HIV status to any of them because either way we should always use a condom.

I do ADMIT that I met guys who wanted to have unprotected sex with me, and I did it a few couple times . They did not know that I was HIV positive. But HEY, they are grownups! That is their responsability if they decide not to use a condom. If they did it with me, they would probably have done it also with other people before.

So, basically we are all adults. We can't be disclosing our HIV status to every single people we meet. As adults that are going to have sex, everyone should know whats best for each one.

This probably is a "cold" point of view, but that's the way we handle it here. In my country there is a special HIV/AIDS law that protects the privacy of the information of every people -among other things-. For example, when my doctor gives me the prescription for me to get the HIV medication, she does not put my name on it, she "decodes" my name including the 2 first letters of my name + 2 first letters of my last name + birthdate.  So , as  you can imagine, we are always "trained" and told that the confidentiality of our HIV status is even protected by law. So by law I have the right not to disclose my HIV status to anyone I dont feel like to.

[mecch]

Dave from Argentina, you are obviously speaking about your personal choices and your situation in Argentina.
Please be aware that there are some states in the USA, and some countries, where by law you must disclose your HIV status before having sex. 
Whether or not condoms are used.  Whether or not there is transmission. Okidokey?

[Jeff G]

Sigh ... daves post makes me want to slink back into the LTS forum and never fucking crawl back out .

[_dave_]

Dave from Argentina, you are obviously speaking about your personal choices and your situation in Argentina.
Please be aware that there are some states in the USA, and some countries, where by law you must disclose your HIV status before having sex. 
Whether or not condoms are used.  Whether or not there is transmission. Okidokey?

I do understand that . But still, I believe this is something personal and everyone has the right to its own privacy.

Besides, let's say that an HIV positive person has sex with someone who is negative, and the negative person gets infected. How will the Law determine that it was you who infected the other person and it wasnt anyone else ? There's no way to find  that out.

Like I said before, if they are adults enough to face a sexual relationship, they should be adults enough to face whatever comes after that as well (not only HIV infection, but also  pregnancy and any other STD) . The same way that us, HIV positive people did at some point of our lives.

[Jeff G]

I do understand that . But still, I believe this is something personal and everyone has the right to its own privacy.

Besides, let's say that an HIV positive person has sex with someone who is negative, and the negative person gets infected. How will the Law determine that it was you who infected the other person and it wasnt anyone else ? There's no way to find  that out.

Like I said before, if they are adults enough to face a sexual relationship, they should be adults enough to face whatever comes after that as well (not only HIV infection, but also  pregnancy and any other STD) . The same way that us, HIV positive people did at some point of our lives.

Dave . You are casual about throwing you insensitive , callous , shallow and totally self serving views around almost as if you assume everyone naturally feels the same as you do . I want you to know many people do not feel the way you do . You do a disservice to all people that have made sacrifices to fight stigma and discrimination . Shame on you .

Are you simply here to stir some shit up ?

[_dave_]

Dave . You are casual about throwing you insensitive , callous , shallow and totally self serving views around almost as if you assume everyone naturally feels the same as you do . I want you to know many people do not feel the way you do . You do a disservice to all people that have made sacrifices to fight stigma and discrimination . Shame on you .

Are you simply here to stir some shit up ?

Hey, it's only my point of view and I never said that everyone naturally feels the same way I do. Never said that.

So, according to you I do a "disservice to all people that have made sacrifices to fight stigma and discrimination"? That's funny because what you are proposing (Disclosing your hiv status) is self-stigmatization and auto-discrimination and what I am saying is that there is no need to disclose everywhere to everyone  that you are HIV Positive because either way - positive or negative- YOU HAVE TO protect yourself and the other person (and I am talking about RANDOM sexual relationships).

Why should I disclose my HIV status to a person that I just met in a club and who probably I wont see again in my entire life? What makes you think this person will not tell others that I am HIV positive if that person does not even feel anything for me because I just met him/her and does not  give a shit about me?

I am HIV positive and I feel exactly the same as an HIV negative person.  When HIV Negative people have sex, do they say to each other " Oh before we have sex, I want to tell you that I am HIV negative"? NO, THEY DONT (Not to mention that discussing about an illness before having sex is the most non-erotic subject you can ever talk about)

HIV Negative and/or HIV Positive people protect themselves the same way and use the same methods so there is no point on disclosing your HIV status to a random person you just met and who probably you wont see again in your life!!

Different is the situation where you meet a person, you date that person for a while, you feel something for her/him and you want the scenario to be clear for both of you. That is a different picture.

[leatherman]

but also  pregnancy and any other STD

while I agree that protecting yourself against all these things is similar and that both partners have an equal responsibility to protect themselves, none of those issues you listed are exactly similar to knowing that you carry an infectious terminal* disease and have the moral responsibility of not transmitting that kind of a disease

*untested and especially untreated HIV is still a terminal disease

I do ADMIT that I met guys who wanted to have unprotected sex with me, and I did it a few couple times
.......
what I am saying is that there is no need to disclose everywhere to everyone  that you are HIV Positive because either way - positive or negative- YOU HAVE TO protect yourself and the other person

your own story clearly points out that others do not always protect themselves. . .
and, for all your high-mided words and opinions, you did not protect them either. 

[_dave_]

your own story clearly points out that others do not always protect themselves. . .
and, for all your high-mided words and opinions, you did not protect them either. 

1) No. They DECIDED not to protect themselves and I was okay with that. I can't force anybody to use a condom if they dont want to . Its  their decission, not mine. And I assume that by choosing not to use a condom the other person fully understands the possible consequences that this action may result in.

2) I am an adult person who has sex with other adults and never forced anyone to have sex with me without using condoms. Like I said, we are adults enough to determine what decisions we make and pay for the consequences of our own decisions and that is called "FREE WILL".

[_dave_]

while I agree that protecting yourself against all these things is similar and that both partners have an equal responsibility to protect themselves, none of those issues you listed are exactly similar to knowing that you carry an infectious terminal* disease and have the moral responsibility of not transmitting that kind of a disease

So, according to you I have the "MORAL RESPONSABILITY OF NOT TRANSMITTING THAT KIND OF DISEASE"?
 
Well, lets put it this way: the other person has the responsability of protecting his own body so that he/sho does not ACQUIRE this disease from anyone as well.

Thats why its called AIDS (acquired immunodeficiency syndrome)

I never say that someone "passed" to me this disease. I DECIDED to have it the very same moment that I decided not to protect myself.

[wolfter]

Sigh ... daves post makes me want to slink back into the LTS forum and never fucking crawl back out .

AGREED!!!  I decided not to respond to his posts out of fear I'll get a time-out.  When so much time, money and energy have been devoted to stopping (or reducing) the number of infections, to read some such ignorance is madening.

Wolfie

[tednlou2]

Dave, you said this in the Just Tested Poz forum, " I dont know YOU, but I've been always afraid of getting HIV from random people that I had sex with. I was always thinking and thinking things over and over again. But now, since I already have HIV its like I dont have to think about all that again."

If someone you had sex with knew they were poz, do you not wish they would have told you, or at least insisted on condoms, regardless of whether you asked or wanted to bareback?  You say you don't have to think about all that now.  That sounds like, "Well, I have it and can't get it again, so why should I concern myself with whether others become infected?  It's totally their responsibility now." 

It does come off very selfish, and forgetting about your own worry.

[Rev. Moon]

Disclosing your hiv status is self-stigmatization and auto-discrimination

That is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a quite a while.  As someone who is very open about his status, and who has done a little bit to educate others and reduce stigma, I take offense to this statement (and your attitude as a whole --not just in this thread, but others where you have chosen to reply).  How fucking dare you?

Sure, let us all simply hide under a rock and act like HIV is some sort of scarlet letter that must be hidden at all costs.  Many activists and AIDS victims must be turning in their graves each time you post any of your selfish and senseless babble.

Your implicit shame and the decision to stay silent exemplify the fear and rejection that many people living with HIV have to endure.  Never mind the fact that your being silent and secretive about your status to any sexual partners could be easily viewed by many as some form of "typhoid Mary" behavior.  That is just lovely.

Just because you feel strongly about it, and because you think that it is right for you, it does not make it gospel.

[_dave_]

Dave, you said this in the Just Tested Poz forum, " I dont know YOU, but I've been always afraid of getting HIV from random people that I had sex with. I was always thinking and thinking things over and over again. But now, since I already have HIV its like I dont have to think about all that again."

If someone you had sex with knew they were poz, do you not wish they would have told you, or at least insisted on condoms, regardless of whether you asked or wanted to bareback?  You say you don't have to think about all that now.  That sounds like, "Well, I have it and can't get it again, so why should I concern myself with whether others become infected?  It's totally their responsibility now." 

It does come off very selfish, and forgetting about your own worry.

Let me reply to your questions:

- If someone you had sex with knew they were poz, do you not wish they would have told you, or at least insisted on condoms, regardless of whether you asked or wanted to bareback?

If I was to have sex with a random person, why would I expect him/her to protect me? Its ME the one who has to care about not acquiring a disease from a random sex night with someone that I just met and its ME the one who should've insisted on using condoms .

Why do we always have to EXPECT "politically correct" attitudes from others ? WE have to protect ourselves and not to expect that others protect us. If we dont protect ourselves, then who is?

That is probably why people get infected, because they expect others to protect them when actually it does not work that way.

That sounds like, "Well, I have it and can't get it again, so why should I concern myself with whether others become infected?  It's totally their responsibility now." 

No, it does not sound like that. Because even if you already have HIV and  you have unprotected sex AGAIN you can re-infect yourself again making the HIV virus more resistant to your medication.

[_dave_]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a quite a while.  As someone who is very open about his status, and who has done a little bit to educate others and reduce stigma, I take offense to this statement (and your attitude as a whole --not just in this thread, but others where you have chosen to reply).  How fucking dare you?

Sure, let us all simply hide under a rock and act like HIV is some sort of scarlet letter that must be hidden at all costs.  Many activists and AIDS victims must be turning in their graves each time you post any of your selfish and senseless babble.

Your implicit shame and the decision to stay silent exemplify the fear and rejection that many people living with HIV have to endure.  Never mind the fact that your being silent and secretive about your status to any sexual partners could be easily viewed by many as some form of "typhoid Mary" behavior.  That is just lovely.

Just because you feel strongly about it, and because you think that it is right for you, it does not make it gospel.

I think you are misunderstanding everything I posted. Read again and probably you will understand.

I said that it makes no sense to disclose your HIV status to random people you met and have sex for one night in your life.

I am not saying that is not okay to disclose your HIV status and disclose it to those who you love and care about you.

[leatherman]

They DECIDED not to protect themselves and I was okay with that. I can't force anybody to use a condom if they dont want to .

you didn't have to have that unprotected sex - that was your choice. You could (and really SHOULD) have not risked transmitting a disease like HIV to someone else. Much less having sex with someone who obviously was uneducated and didn't know the risks they were taking.

like many others here, I counsel lots of people who don't understand the risks they take.
I counsel a lot of them too when they end up dealing with the consequences of those risks.
it's sad and your actions only make it harder for the rest of us, poz and neg, in our efforts to quell the rising rates of HIV infection.

[leatherman]

Because even if you already have HIV and  you have unprotected sex AGAIN you can re-infect yourself again making the HIV virus more resistant to your medication.

untrue. For people that are properly medicated, not only does the treatment reduce the amount of HIV that might be transmitted, lowering the chances of infection or reinfection; but proper treatment will work as both PrEP and PEP preventing any reinfection. Case studies of "reinfection" have only shown this happening when someone was not on or not on adequate therapy

[_dave_]

you didn't have to have that unprotected sex - that was your choice. 

That was not MY choice. Sex is not made by just one person, right? You need at least TWO people to have sex. AT LEAST. Then it was OUR decision. Not mine

You could (and really SHOULD) have not risked transmitting a disease like HIV to someone else.

Again, I didnt put anyone in risk. That person put him/herself in risk. Not me.

Much less having sex with someone who obviously was uneducated and didn't know the risks they were taking.

Since I have sex with adults, I assume that they understand the consequences of having sex (protected or unprotected sex). If they are not mature to understand the consequences of their actions, then they shouldnt have sex. Or you expect me to  give them a class before having sex?

[_dave_]

untrue. For people that are properly medicated, not only does the treatment reduce the amount of HIV that might be transmitted, lowering the chances of infection or reinfection; but proper treatment will work as both PrEP and PEP preventing any reinfection. Case studies of "reinfection" have only shown this happening when someone was not on or not on adequate therapy

Cool. Thanks for the info. I am safe then . And the others I had sex with in an unprotected way, might be safe too

[Rev. Moon]

untrue. For people that are properly medicated, not only does the treatment reduce the amount of HIV that might be transmitted, lowering the chances of infection or reinfection; but proper treatment will work as both PrEP and PEP preventing any reinfection. Case studies of "reinfection" have only shown this happening when someone was not on or not on adequate therapy

Chile please.  Seems to me that somebody fell asleep during HIV 101 class.

[_dave_]

Chile please.  Seems to me that somebody fell asleep during HIV 101 class.

Yep. I fell asleep during HIV 101 class the very same day you fell asleep during Language class, since you could not even understand and/or interpret my posts

[wolfter]

Yep. I fell asleep during HIV 101 class the very same day you fell asleep during Language class, since you could not even understand and/or interpret my posts

Did you fall asleep during reading comprehension class as that post was NOT directed at you?  You've so endeared yourself to this entire forum and I expect you'll receive great support in the future.     You're quite low in my relevancy scale.

Wolfie

[Rev. Moon]

Yep. I fell asleep during HIV 101 class the very same day you fell asleep during Language class, since you could not even understand and/or interpret my posts

Oh, boo.  Don't even try me.  You may want to re-frame your posts in whichever fashion your little heart desires.  Your "absolute" claims (i.e. telling someone "NO NO NO!!!!" regarding their choice to disclose their HIV status) don't require a lot of interpretation. 

Be blessed, honey chile.

Did you fall asleep during reading comprehension class as that post was NOT directed at you?  You've so endeared yourself to this entire forum and I expect you'll receive great support in the future.     You're quite low in my relevancy scale.

Wolfie

Amen, sista Wolftah.

[jkinatl2]

I have this image of Moffie in my head, pounding on a keyboard like a maniac.

Dave.... Dave ...

I had a whole eloquent caveat written, something to show that I believe in personal responsibility and disclosure when putting another at risk, and being brave and reducing stigma...

But I deleted it. Because you wouldnt read it and you wouldnt understand the real intent of my message.

Your attitude is why we remain stigmatized. Your moral center hurts all of us.

 Your choices actually DO help to change the world, it's perceptions. It is frustrating to see you choose such unwise journeys, at the expense of the very people you may/will need when your choices inevitably betray you.

[Rockin]

To be honest many many guys behave exactly like Dave and every time someone like him makes this sort of statement we all throw rocks. Isn't it better to try to understand his reasoning? If you get angry at these kinds of posts then just don't say anything.

I understand the fear of rejection very well because I'm simply scared shitless of it...ever since my Dx I've had sex with guys and I never told any of them but we used condoms every time, none of them broke and I also refrained from ejaculating anywhere near their mouths, even though I know that the risk in oral sex is pretty much non-existent. I already made up my mind about it and I will only tell if I see the potential of something serious with someone.

After all, people have sex without asking questions right? Don't ask don't tell? At the end of the day, if it's a casual hookup, no one wants to know what happens, bottom line. Sad but true.

However Dave, when those situations happened and you allowed someone to have BB sex with you, didn't you feel a slight bit of guilt in your conscience? You may be dealing well with your status but some people get depressed and even suicidal. I do agree with the others that you are being irresponsible, regardless if the other guy is willing to have bareback sex with you without asking questions. You have knowledge of the situation, they don't.

[0608]

Just thought I'd brighten up the mood a bit (btw there's right, and there's wrong, and Dave, you're in the latter).  At midnight on New Year's Day, I was being made love to by an awesome guy who also happens to be positive.  It was my first time since my diagnosis in June, and it was amazing.  Sex isn't as great as I remembered; it's BETTER!!!

Okay, carry on~.

[Iggy]

I started to read the recent posts on this thread and like Jonathan was getting ready to post a long thought out response to Dave until I read his response to Mikie's point that Dave made a choice to have unprotected sex with people without disclosing his status:

That was not MY choice. Sex is not made by just one person, right? You need at least TWO people to have sex. AT LEAST. Then it was OUR decision. Not mine

That's when I realized that you can't reason with such a mindset.   I do post here anyway though not for Dave's response, but to make a statement for others who may read the thread. 

I agree that there is always two (or more depending on the scene  )  people responsible in consenting sex and neither are responsible for making the other partner(s) choices, but that does not allow nor even intimate that either can abdicate their own responsibility.  Owning and disclosing your status during sexual encounters - particularly bareback sex - is one of them.

I won't pretend I always disclosed in my past so I'm hope my post doesn't come across as higher than thou.   There were online hook-ups, sex parties, and bath houses I went to in New York the first few years after diagnosis that I, like Dave, figured if the person didn't ask I wasn't going to volunteer it.  I made excuses in my head and said that if they were trolling for bareback sex they must be poz themselves.  In hindsight if that was the case than a quick, two-second "You poz too?" question shouldn't have been an issue - but I didn't in those circumstances and admit I was wrong.

I personally am glad that my status is now publicly known.  When I have a profile on a hook-up site it spells out that I'm poz.  A quick search of my name on the internet shows that I have publicly come out as poz in both a video for this site and an interview I did with a local paper in Charlotte.   

I went through too much crap, grief, and panic about my status when it was not public and very guarded, but I have had no panic, no grief, no crap about it since being public. 

Speaking for myself, I think with maturity of both myself and my sense of being poz I can find less to worry about in life in regards to my status and sex - and not dreading someone asking me; not worrying that they will find out; or knowing that I am not doing something wrong in a sexual encounter is one of the greatest benefits of being open about my status.

Edited for clarity (I wrote the original response with me first cup of joe this morning.)

[mecch]

I do understand that . But still, I believe this is something personal and everyone has the right to its own privacy.

Besides, let's say that an HIV positive person has sex with someone who is negative, and the negative person gets infected. How will the Law determine that it was you who infected the other person and it wasnt anyone else ? There's no way to find  that out.

Like I said before, if they are adults enough to face a sexual relationship, they should be adults enough to face whatever comes after that as well (not only HIV infection, but also  pregnancy and any other STD) . The same way that us, HIV positive people did at some point of our lives.

You can believe whatever you wish. You can act however you want to.

Just be sure you are informed about the laws that are in place. Most people consider these laws completely unhelpful and counterproductive.  But nevertheless they exist. And courts right or wrongly find grounds to imprison people for non-disclosure - so your personal feelings about lack of proof are not protection.

Just be careful and informed, especially since you said you are travelling to the USA. Many states have these laws.

http://criminalhivtransmission.blogspot.ch

[wolfter]

To be honest many many guys behave exactly like Dave and every time someone like him makes this sort of statement we all throw rocks. Isn't it better to try to understand his reasoning? If you get angry at these kinds of posts then just don't say anything.

So we should just shut up and eat our feelings instead of pointing out errors in the poster's reasoning? 

I hope you study HIV history and become grateful that we became angry about society's attitude towards infection.  Your logic states we should have just sat back and not screamed for advancements?  If I recall, there were lots of rocks thrown around to get our points across.

Don't we have an obligation to protect others even when it's their responsibility to do so?  If someone is driving down a highway and a pedestrian is jaywalking, don't we swerve or slow down in order to avoid harming that person?  Or do we simply plow them over since it was their responsibility to be safe?

[Denver Toad]

When I was first diagnosed the first slogan that spoke made sense was "HIV it stops with me".  I related as I didn't want anyone whatsoever to learn they were positive because of my actions. Or lack of actions.

In the years since I, like many if we're honest with ourselves, have wanted to throw responsibility aside and indulge my wants. I can say I never have indulged those desires. And I admit that at times it's hurt me. I've lost lovers, conquests, and I've been rejected. There's been rumors spread, innuendo cast, and gossip over how I was infected. But I can say with pride; I have never infected another since my diagnosis.

http://www.hivstopswithme.org/

Frankly Dave, I have no idea how you live with yourself. How you can glibly say it's not my sole responsibility. If you were infected with syphilis or gonorrhea and the infection would be quickly known and perhaps traced back to you would you be so quick to dismiss your responsibility? If you knew that within a week I could come back and confront you, using whatever means I believed necessary, over the infection you had given me would you still do the same?

I'm parsing words which I do poorly...

If you knew I could and would come back in a week and fuck you up because I knew without a doubt you'd given me the clap; would you give me the clap?
If your actions had direct and immediate consequences would you continue? Or are you hiding behind the anonymity of time and distance? All the while abdicating your responsibility?

HIV, it stops with me. All it takes is one...

[Rockin]

So we should just shut up and eat our feelings instead of pointing out errors in the poster's reasoning? 

I hope you study HIV history and become grateful that we became angry about society's attitude towards infection.  Your logic states we should have just sat back and not screamed for advancements?  If I recall, there were lots of rocks thrown around to get our points across.

Don't we have an obligation to protect others even when it's their responsibility to do so?  If someone is driving down a highway and a pedestrian is jaywalking, don't we swerve or slow down in order to avoid harming that person?  Or do we simply plow them over since it was their responsibility to be safe?

All I was saying is that getting angry will not get anyone anywhere, not you, nor Dave. I did say I think he is being irresponsible though.

[mecch]

Don't we have an obligation to protect others even when it's their responsibility to do so?  If someone is driving down a highway and a pedestrian is jaywalking, don't we swerve or slow down in order to avoid harming that person?  Or do we simply plow them over since it was their responsibility to be safe?

Of course most of us would slow down or swerve. The vast majority? I think.

But we are dealing with both an individual and perhaps cultural differences too, with Dave, for example.

I was really surpised by some cultural differences in Switzerland to the US and one directly the same as your analogy about safe driving.  Cause in Switzerland, I do get the impression quite a few drivers would hit a jaywalker and not feel much shame or regret, as the jaywalker "was not following rules". 

I was shocked one time my first or second year teaching, one student got a broken foot jaywalking, cause a car hit him. AND he got a fat fine from the police.  His fault. 

Just interesting to try to take into account different reasons Dave might be saying things that so outrage so many.  There might be provocation going on.  Also, some people arguing on rather different topics without realising it.

 

[mecch]

Dave, we used to hear round about 2000 or so of a young generation of men who had a similar rationale as you do. About the inevitability of HIV, and how they didn't think it was such a big deal, might as well get the infection over with and get on "getting the sex you want" etc etc-

Here in Europe, we said too many of the "boys" in Berlin and Paris thought this way.  Have fun, have the sex you want, if you get HIV, pop the pill, continue on, don't blink, don't over-dramatize. Etc etc.

A year or two ago we had a big discussion in this forum that finally got to the sticky point of - what about the role of being undetectable, or not, in these acts of unprotected sex with willing "strangers in the night". 

I am pretty much guessing that you are on HAART and undetectable, so these acts of unprotected sex with non disclosure are somewhat mitigated in your moral consciousness by the belief that you don't think you are passing HIV because you probably can't.

Meaning, you aren't really the Typhoid Mary that some are saying you are, here.  (Also maybe you are provocatively playing this role, here, in this thread.)

There are nuances to this reasoning of "unprotected and non-disclosure is OK -- because I'm undetectable and both are willing to play this game". 

I used to think more or less like you, for "strangers in the night purposes". 

But now I've come round to the idea that its a bit more generous and respectful to others to say, if bareback is on the offer, just a brief "I'm HIV+ and you?"

But basically this is because I don't give a rats ass if some stranger I might want to bareback with knows I am HIV+. Whereas, you seem to still care if that information gets out there.   In part, you say, because in your culture, being HIV+ is pretty much a TABOO topic.  Or at least, you believe it is Taboo, personally, and your culture affords this.

What a mess.

But at the very least, you had better be aware that other people don't permit this and in some places its against the law (however stupidly) and you could put yourself at great risk criminally, all to protect your "privacy".   And thats not even a discussion of the possibility of transmission or your responsibility to others. 

So at least peruse the websites about criminal transmission before you travel around and screw around outside your protected bubble.

[Hellraiser]

The best advice I can give in this thread is to ignore everything that Dave posted.  I've never seen anyone so deluded in all my life.