POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: milker on April 05, 2007, 10:23:09 pm
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I went to a bar yesterday and meet this hot guy who at one point tells me that his online name is "... bb ...". He's hot. I want him. I fuck him bb. He fucks me bb. We never mentionned HIV. We go to a sex club and I get unknown dick up my ass (for a few seconds, after I realized it was unprotected I "remove it"), I'm drunk I suck 20 or more dicks.
I don't think I've put anyone in serious threat for HIV. I didn't cum in him. Nobody came in me.
I need to know how you people deal with this. I can't whisper "I'm HIV+" in a backroom. I can't.
PM me if you want to keep this private.
Milker.
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Dude... Thats sad....
karma.... or not....
sad
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I know :( but i don't think i'm the only one. I'm honest here.
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Girl you were busy. You did it. But do you really want to go through the worry of getting something else and infecting someone else? I am sad I hope you are okay.
rob
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Dude... Thats sad....
karma.... or not....
sad
judgemental much?
It's real. More real than most of the bullshit conversations that go on here.
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I'm good but I need to hear from other people that did what I did. It's not easy. I'm sure I sound like a HIV spreader now. But I know I'm not alone and I need help dealing with this.
Milker.
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Thanks Dingo. I'm very open about this because I need to figure out how to deal with this.
Milker.
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bailey... not judging...
I know that this transition is tuff for a 20 year old.... I'm just being honest.. sorry to all
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Its sounds as if when you're Good, you're very very good ... !
And when you're bad, you're realy really bad .. !
No judgement here !
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point being lis that your comment is completely unconstructive to a real, legitimate issue.
It was only condemnation and nothing else and shouldn't have been posted at all without anything but condemnation to contribute.
Now please, let's not derail a very serious topic.
(((((((
People who go to sex clubs put themselves at peril if they want to bb, just like a one on one encounter.
I think moreso infact because the likelyhood of encountering a poz person there is greater than 'filtered' dates or other types of hookups.
Add in alcohol and it's a pretty good mix for disaster.
Been there done that.... well, not with 20, but I can dream.
I am not going to take responsibility for others carelessness.
I would presume THEY were poz and act accordingly in that situation. Which would mean lots of bareback fun for me.
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two options, really.
No more backrooms
full disclosure.
HIV really does fuck with your life. It limits you and it narrows you. It erodes your self esteem and your ability to feel like a real, whole, viable person.
Anyone who says differently is talking out of his/her ass.
If you have a conscience, you will be haunted by the memories you described forever. Wondering if you gave your virus out like Halloween candy. Wondering if or when someone will want to reciprocate by pressing charges. Wondering if or when someone will respond with rage and violence.
Fair? Not hardly. When everyone around you is more than willing to take the chance because you look healthy.
But fair or not, it's where you are. It sucks. I know. But unless you want to spend your days looking over your shoulder, its really up to you to become someone you can live with, and live comfortably.
I wish I could offer more of a blanket pass. And you know I am all about shared personal responsibility. But sadly, us "pozzies" have burdens that approach the daunting.
And if you are a person with half a conscience, its going to haunt you. For what its worth, it's better to minimize that haunting with as much disclosure and honesty as possible. Otherwise those ghosts get awfully heavy, and you carry them for a long, long time.
Trust me on this.
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Is this the type of thread that would go into a men's forum? i can't help but wonder that.
see, this is one of those "gay men's world" type of scenarios, yet one of the first responses came from a woman.
and it wasn't a response on how to approach/deal with this type of situation, but was more of a judgment response.
it's a gay man sensitive topic that i would consider akin to a woman's "how to convince a man to put on a condom" type of issue.
apologies if this might be thought a highjack, but i felt the need to highlight the point at the moment because i thought it was a relevent one.
to get back to the issue at hand: how do we as gay men (if we visit that type of establishment) handle a situation like that? it isn't a situation that lends itself easily to disclosure and the safest of behavior. i think we need to address it and try to come up with some answers. i honestly don't know a sure-fire answer that would encompass each and every encounter.
it's been a long time since i have gone to any place like that...pre-diagnosis.
guys?
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Seriously how do you deal with this?
I mean you're in a sex club with horny dudes all over you. It's been some time since i've been in a sex club and you have 8 people wanting their dick sucked i'm on my knees what the fuck am I going to say, yell "i'm HIV POZ DUDES!" ?
This is VERY NEW to me. I need help from people that have been in this situation before.
Milker.
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Shaming yourself is not going to do any good. Reflect on what brought you to that place. No moralizing. You seem to be asking for help. How can we help if we are not in your situation. Do you just want to hear from the guys that are doing the same? You do need to learn to disclose though. Not judging, just being honest. You obviously don't feel good about it. Why not suck the twenty dicks but no bb anal without disclosure. That's a start.
Hugs,
rob
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I noticed a few days ago you posted about on-line searching for pozzies in the San Diego area. Any connection between that thread and this thread?
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And if you are a person with half a conscience, its going to haunt you. For what its worth, it's better to minimize that haunting with as much disclosure and honesty as possible. Otherwise those ghosts get awfully heavy, and you carry them for a long, long time.
Trust me on this.
Jonathan, I must disagree with you. That may have been your experience and your conscience, but it is not everyone's. It's still your opinion with a no-win situation.
Either he has no conscience or he will regret it. But Jonathan, one does not preclude the other.
I would put forward that one can both have a conscience and rather not be concerned about this scenario.
My personal values in this situation would dictate so.
I see nothing wrong with the actions of a consenting adult in a sex club when each individual fully knows the consequences.
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Perhaps, he should have disclosed but it's a sex club and going into there, everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions since it's unrealistic to think there's no one in there that's positive. Worse yet, there are guys who don't know they're postive and they're running around without any precautions.
Alcohol was involved and people tend not to make the best decisions when that is the case. Did the club have condoms available? If so, perhaps he could have insisted on a condom. It's hard to say when you're not in the situation.
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But this is only one guy and there was this "silence" about hiv status.
My main question was "how the fuck do you disclose your status when you have 20 men around you with their dick poking your mouth" ?
I realize that this guy's silence about his status and my silence about my status were bad. I tried to ask. But I couldn't. It's difficult. I'm fucking honest here and I realize that people may hate me for this, so please respect that.
Milker.
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I noticed a few days ago you posted about on-line searching for pozzies in the San Diego area. Any connection between that thread and this thread?
Nope.
Milker.
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I see nothing wrong with the actions of a consenting adult in a sex club when each individual fully knows the consequences.
Ultimately, we are the ones held accountable to our own actions, regardless of the participation of others. Unless you were raping someone, which isn't what happened.
Do something good for the world around you and let it be.
-joseph
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And I am kinda having to agree with Dingo some here. Being in a darkened sex club free-for-all isn't on the exact track that a date or even an online hook up is. From my past experience, there are usually condoms present that ALL participants have the option of picking up. There are often safe sex posters tacked around. And the reciprocation through charges or violence is not extremely likely in such a case- where participants are engaging in all manner of sex with multiple partners that they often can't even see clearly. At a certain point, I think there are instances where the responsibility for sexual health has to be shared by all- not just squarely placed on the shoulders of the positive. And I don't think it makes me without conscience to think so.
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my risk assesment lets me blow and be blown by others with full cumshot.
I have had unprotected sex with neggies who both knew and didn't know.
I have no moral qualms over it.... and no regrets.
And I certainly wouldn't think twice about it in a sex club... wouldn't even think once about it.
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If you have a conscience, you will be haunted by the memories you described forever. Wondering if you gave your virus out like Halloween candy. Wondering if or when someone will want to reciprocate by pressing charges. Wondering if or when someone will respond with rage and violence.
And if you are a person with half a conscience, its going to haunt you. For what its worth, it's better to minimize that haunting with as much disclosure and honesty as possible. Otherwise those ghosts get awfully heavy, and you carry them for a long, long time.
Trust me on this.
I have a conscience, half or a quarter or a millimeter. I'm posting this because I can't believe i'm the only one that lost control, and I need help on how to deal with this. I'm not haunted with anything, actually. If the guys that stick their raw dick in me while I was on my knees sucking dick then it's THEIR problem. My concern is how can I convey my status in those circumstances.
Milker.
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I'm drunk I suck 20 or more dicks.
Hi Milker
While reading your post the quote above was the one that stood out for me..we have a saying here "it's not what you drink it's how you drink"..we all know that alcohol clouds our judgement.
I'm certainly no expert on this subject but I don't think it's so much the amount of sex you are having or had but the intake of alcohol you are taking on board while visiting the clubs.
I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Hugs
Jan :-*
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Hmm.
I think that both you and the guy you fucked completely ignored your responsibilities in this case.
In a situation like that, you don't have to disclose... but a condom would be required, methinks.
And he should've given a rat's ass about his body, and taken steps to protect himself... but he didn't.
So, you both have to live with consequences. He very well could have to live with HIV (if he doesn't have it already), and you get to live not knowing if you infected him or not.
Guilt is an undesirable emotion.
I would avoid it in the future by simply using a condom when you fuck someone in a sex club.
In a sex club, disclosure is understood, I think. It goes with the territory. But use a condom. For various reasons.
You could end up with Big Bertha hangin' out of your cock.
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Annie,
alcohol helped me getting in the club in the first place. Lost inhibitions, found this hot guy that was going there, and this is how it happened.
Milker.
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God my sex life is boring...
My feeling, though probably unpopular, is that gay men who are in a sex club having an orgy should assume that everyone is positive and act accordingly. If you want to come up for air to make a public service announcement to ease your conscience then that is your choice. No gay man going to a sex club is stupid enough to think that no one in there is carrying any number of diseases. If I were in your situation I wouldn't be so worried about who I infected but what I picked up.
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I totally respect your opinion there Dingo. I don't share it, but I respect it. And I see your point. As you know, I am one of the guys who routinely puts his neck on the online block when it comes to shared responsibility (even personal responsibility) because, at the end of the day, someone chooses what and whom they put in their body. And accepts the ramifications thereof.
To the best of my knowledge, no one has successfully sued - and won - their HIv status back. That's a bell you can not unring, current state of the medical art considering.
I simply propose that the original poster seems to have a good deal of equivocation insofar as his continued participation in this stuff. Enough to be raw and honest online, in a forum that routinely rewards such things with vitriol and judgment. I do my damnedest not to pass that, since you should see the glass house I live in. Well, it's entertaining when the birds smack it.
Thing is, I can see both points of view here. Some people have the temperment to handle it. Some don't. To be fair, in with the intent of full disclosure, I have not been to a sex club or bathhouse. So I honestly don't have the background necessary to fully understand that arena.
I do know that cumulative ghosts can weigh heavily on a person. To suggest that we don't seriously care about the well being of others when making our sexual choices... well... that seems rather alien in the search for self worth and self repair. To me, anyhow.
I think Milker was really brave in venturing this thread. And I certainly hope it remains as non judgmental and as honest as it has been thus far.
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Hmm.
I think that both you and the guy you fucked completely ignored your responsibilities in this case.
But he said he was a bb dude. I assumed he was hiv. I'm new to this shit. Should I assume that if someone is asking bb and not saying anything about hiv+ he's hiv+? I admit I didn't want to "risk the opportunity to not fuck him because he was neg". This is new to me, that's why i'm asking for help from people who have been there before.
Milker.
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Dingo, you can express your opinion and your thoughts but it does seem to me you can do it without gratuitously putting down other exchanges in this manner which all too easily can inspire flames:
"More real than most of the bullshit conversations that go on here."
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Hear, hear for GSO!
Agreed. Nor would I ever think that any guy in this day in age with "...bb..." in his online screen name is having his first day at the rodeo. Ditto for most (if not all) of the others slipping and sliding in the backrooms.
And kudos for milker for the honesty.
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I have a conscience, half or a quarter or a millimeter. I'm posting this because I can't believe i'm the only one that lost control, and I need help on how to deal with this. I'm not haunted with anything, actually. If the guys that stick their raw dick in me while I was on my knees sucking dick then it's THEIR problem. My concern is how can I convey my status in those circumstances.
Milker.
If you're uncomfortable with someone about to stick something into you in a sex club, I think a simple, "no thank you" or "wrap it up, bro" would suffice. It is your ass, after all.
You don't have to scream, "I'M ONE OF THE INFEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECTED OOOOOOOOOOOONES!"
Although I now have a brilliant idea for a performance art piece. Thank you!
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Milker, I hear you.
I'm wondering if you have any ideas about what might be helpful to you in dealing with this situation.
I'd rather hear more from you rather than just jumping in with suggestions. If you're up for it.....
From the responses you've already gotten you've obviously struck a chord here.
I don't see anything to judge you about. You're trying to deal with something serious.
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I suggest this:
Like the saying goes, "You can't know shadow without light"
Well, you don't arrive at "bb" without knowledge of wrapped sex and thus deciding on a preference to go without.
People don't arrive at choices like "bb" or "condoms/safe only" in the same way one determines a preference for ketchup or mustard. If they've chosen "bb", they've heard about condoms and know what they are for. And are opting to not use them with all that may entail.
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But he said he was a bb dude. I assumed he was hiv. I'm new to this shit. Should I assume that if someone is asking bb and not saying anything about hiv+ he's hiv+? I admit I didn't want to "risk the opportunity to not fuck him because he was neg". This is new to me, that's why i'm asking for help from people who have been there before.
Milker.
I do understand what you're saying, and he probably is poz.
But... what happens when you assume?
I'm not trying to make you feel bad... but one of the things I've learned with this damn virus is never to assume anyone's serostatus (most of us are here for making that mistake). The other thing I've learned is that it's always important to cover yer ass. Always always always cover your fuckin' ass, dude.
Don't assume anyone's poz. It could have consequences. Legal ones.
"Your Honor, he was a dirty, barebacking slut, and I figured he was HIV+, so I fucked him without a condom" would never hold up in court.
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But I don't think telling the judge you had sex in a club with 25-50 guys you didn't know adds any credibility in court.
As has been repeatedly said, the best action is to insist on a condom period. Cuts down on infecting others or you catching something from them.
Of course, crabs would be a risk you can't protect yourself from.
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This is an interesting topic, but I am wondering what Miker wants here.
Miker you say, "How do I deal with this"
Do you mean how do you deal with this now you have done it or how do you deal with that situation if it occurs again. The two are different questions and it seems that people are answering either.
Rich.....who has the sex life of a nun compared to all that...
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to err is human
boys will be boys
let it go
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People don't arrive at choices like "bb" or "condoms/safe only" in the same way one determines a preference for ketchup or mustard. If they've chosen "bb", they've heard about condoms and know what they are for. And are opting to not use them with all that may entail.
I daresay that the HIV sold on the media outlets, by pharma companies and governments, and the HIV with which many of us live are two drastically different creatures. If there were an accurate and honest depiction of HIV in current medical media (including POZ) then I strongly suspect that one would notice a dearth of BB sex amongst the neggies.
Serosorting really only works with other poz people, as our status is unlikely to change.
But I think that the trend to BB sex amongst anyone is based largely on a fallacious idea of what it means to seroconvert. And no, I am not going to go all gloom and doom. But even under the best circumstances, HIV fucks up your life. And people are NOT getting that message.
Do you die from it? Maybe not. But even assuming you can coast for five years before meds, and even assuming that Atripla works for ya, you still have a world of hurt in store. From financial woes to employment issues to social bullshit. It's not a fate I would wish on anyone. Not even for one hot-ass fuck.
Geez, am I officially an old coot for thinking like this? Holy God when did that happen.
I still think sex can be hot, dirty, rough, and totally objectified. And at the end of the day, or night, both parties can emerge without one carrying a new virus, and the other carrying guilt.
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Dingo, you can express your opinion and your thoughts but it does seem to me you can do it without gratuitously putting down other exchanges in this manner which all too easily can inspire flames:
"More real than most of the bullshit conversations that go on here."
Andy, I think Dingo's answers were appropriate. He just threw ideas and comments in the post.
Milker.
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I just don't see how in one moment everyone is saying how deadly this disease is and in the next saying it is okay to give it to someone because they probably want it if they are not protecting themselves. I know people are going to do what they are going to do. But when the funds dry out to keep this disease treatable, then what? And it seems that we should care not to pass this on. Not everyone in that sex club has it, and it can't be assumed they want it, nor know the reality of it. It does nothing to better our cause by possibly knowingly continuing to pass on the gift.
rob
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Milker,
I appreciate your honesty here -- it must have been difficult to decide to post this. I'm not
sure my response will be as relevant for you, as I've never been to a sex club / backroom or
similar situation (y'all can revoke my "gay card" if necessary).
However, if I interpret your post correctly, it does seem to me that you have some qualms
about not disclosing your status. I think you need to use this situation to help decide what
approach to disclosure works for you. Can you live with not disclosing? There's no one right
answer to that question.
I agree with what Tim says below: responsibility for sexual health has to be shared by all, not
just those who are HIV+. That said, in an environment like you described, where there are many
men engaging in relatively anonymous sex with multiple partners, everyone's health is first and
foremost their own responsibility, not someone else's. Guys aren't there to talk -- about disclosure
or otherwise -- they are there to have sex. So I do think disclosure is not as essential in this
type of situation.
Some like Dingo are clearly OK with not disclosing in such an situation. I can see that point of view.
But just because he or anyone else is OK with it, does not necessarily mean that you are.
You still need to be able to live with your conscience when it comes to disclosing or not. Disclosing in an environment like you were in would probably clear the room (maybe not, but I think so). So I'd guess that
you need to find a way to be comfortable with not disclosing in that environment -- or stop going to such places.
Unfortunately, I can't really advise you how to make peace with your conscience, as I have a hard
time doing that even though I disclose all the time (my issue). All I know is that you have to make
a decision that is right for you -- not for anyone else.
This strikes me as a discussion that is rather uniquely applicable to gay men, as Tim points out.
Regards,
Henry
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I once told a guy into bb that I was poz and he did not care. Now that is scary. I think bb is not saying he's Hiv. I am so use to condoms that it makes me scare not to use it; afterall, I could catch another virus including another strain of Hiv.
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Maybe you could get that biohazard tattoo and when you go to a sex club just stay in the sections with adequate light so the tattoo is visible. Avoid the fully dark sections. I know it's not the same as direct vocal disclosure :-\
And avoid backrooms completely. Because they're fully dark
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Milker, I hear you.
I'm wondering if you have any ideas about what might be helpful to you in dealing with this situation.
I'd rather hear more from you rather than just jumping in with suggestions. If you're up for it.....
From the responses you've already gotten you've obviously struck a chord here.
I don't see anything to judge you about. You're trying to deal with something serious.
Andy, the question is. I've been in this situation meeting a dude who is attracted to me and says he's a bb dude. He's hot, I like him, we never talk about HIV. I assume he's poz. We go to this club. Last time I was in a sex club was more than 3 years ago. I totally lose it. I'm in this place with hard dicks all around me, it hasn't happened to me for years. I had 3 gin&tonics before that. I'm in heaven, basically. There have been few moments when I remember about my status.
I can't believe i'm the first one to be int his situation. Yes i'm honest, I did it, I had unprotected anal sex with an unknown status bb dude, and I got unprotected sex from unknown dicks up my ass that night.
What I'm asking is how the fuck would I've been disclosing my status in this situation, and how people that have been there before dealt with it.
Milker.
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I just don't see how in one moment everyone is saying how deadly this disease is and in the next saying it is okay to give it to someone because they probably want it if they are not protecting themselves. I know people are going to do what they are going to do. But when the funds dry out to keep this disease treatable, then what? And it seems that we should care not to pass this on. Not everyone in that sex club has it, and it can't be assumed they want it, nor know the reality of it. It does nothing to better our cause by possibly knowingly continuing to pass on the gift.
rob
I didn't see anywhere above that anyone said it was okay to give it to someone else or that other people probably want it if they are not protecting themselves.
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all you have to say is "I am HIV positive."
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Gee as predictable as the sunrise...
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all you have to say is "I am HIV positive."
Exactly,
That way there are no assumptions, secondguessing, guilt.....
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This is an interesting topic, but I am wondering what Miker wants here.
Miker you say, "How do I deal with this"
Do you mean how do you deal with this now you have done it or how do you deal with that situation if it occurs again. The two are different questions and it seems that people are answering either.
Rich.....who has the sex life of a nun compared to all that...
I mean how do I disclose my status in those situations? It's been a "silenced" encounter with this guy, then there are the other dudes in the backroom. I'm kinda lost here.
Milker.
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all you have to say is "I am HIV positive."
With all due respect, that is right up there with "Just Say No" as a complete solution to the drug issue. There are all kinds of factors involved...emotional, psychological, perhaps chemical. I think that's a somewhat simplistic answer for a complex problem.
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Maybe you could get that biohazard tattoo and when you go to a sex club just stay in the sections with adequate light so the tattoo is visible. Avoid the fully dark sections. I know it's not the same as direct vocal disclosure :-\
And avoid backrooms completely. Because they're fully dark
It's a 2 hours drive from LA where this all happened, and I had enough time to think about it.. Including "HIV POZ on my dick and on my ass" LOL seriously
Milker.
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I know what you are saying but that is what i say if a guy want to have sex bb.
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Milker
It seems that alchohol was also clouding your judgement. Could you just insist on protection? Otherwise is it worth it? Remember that there are many more diseases that will kill you faster in combination with HIV. I really hope you don't want that. I know you have a conscience. I think you know the answer. Just say it. You can play responsibly. You know you can.
rob
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You know how guys say "what are you into?" You say "I like a little of everything, but you should know I'm positive. How about you?" or something to that effect.
In a group setting you play safe.
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either way you did wrong, and you have to think of telling that guy that you are HIV. And what are the laws of having knowingly have unprotected sex when you know you are HIV positive?
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Yes,
It is ultimately going to be a choice between self gratification social responsibility. Remember it is not only HIV that is being passed on. If for selfish reasons alone protect yourself and others.
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Maybe sex clubs should start offering glow in the dark "+" stamps for people who request them like they do for the under 21 crowds at some bars. Might sound silly to some of you, but I'd probably get stamped if it was offered at such a place. That way, I'd be able to fumble around and sero-sort in the dark. Just a spur of the moment thought.
And GSO offers another good suggestion, though frequently there isn't even that much discussion- people just dive in the mix.
PS- Big kudos for Henry. Another Star Post, in my opinion. And good suggestion, allo.
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You know how guys say "what are you into?" You say "I like a little of everything, but you should know I'm positive. How about you?" or something to that effect.
In a group setting you play safe.
Oh that just gave an idea. You can turn the tables and individually ask "ARE YOU POZ?" The answers might surprise you!
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http://www.hivstopswithme.org/popup_video.aspx?path=http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/lnk/ca25win25128/HSWMSFCommerical.wmv/play.asx
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all you have to say is "I am HIV positive."
So there are 50 guys in a black room and you say "I'm hiv positive who wants to fuck me" ?
I can't believe you guys do this. May be you don't do backrooms. Maybe I'm the only slut in this world.
Milker.
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hey, I resent that! I have been a TOTAL slut without doing backrooms. :)
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Milker
It seems that alchohol was also clouding your judgement. Could you just insist on protection? Otherwise is it worth it?
I'm in a sex club. I'm fucking horny. I'm drunk. I want dick. There is hard dick all over me.
I guess the answer is "never go to a sex club anymore" because I don't know how to deal with this.
Milker.
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Maybe sex clubs should start offering glow in the dark "+" stamps for people who request them like they do for the under 21 crowds at some bars. Might sound silly to some of you, but I'd probably get stamped if it was offered at such a place. That way, I'd be able to fumble around and sero-sort in the dark.
Stamp 4x, 2x on each shoulder, front and back (I would imagine) :-\
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Maybe sex clubs should start offering glow in the dark "+" stamps for people who request them like they do for the under 21 crowds at some bars. Might sound silly to some of you, but I'd probably get stamped if it was offered at such a place. That way, I'd be able to fumble around and sero-sort in the dark. Just a spur of the moment thought.
And GSO offers another good suggestion, though frequently there isn't even that much discussion- people just dive in the mix.
PS- Big kudos for Henry. Another Star Post, in my opinion. And good suggestion, allo.
I think that in my state of mind I thought that 1) being fucked bb was fine, I'm poz already, so can't be worse. 2) fucking this dude bb was fine, he was openly into bb, so I assumed he was poz, I was poz, happy couple, ya know. 3) I totally forgot I was poz when sucking dick.
Milker.
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With all due respect, that is right up there with "Just Say No" as a complete solution to the drug issue. There are all kinds of factors involved...emotional, psychological, perhaps chemical. I think that's a somewhat simplistic answer for a complex problem.
I think you're supposed to "Just Say No" to sex clubs if you're Typhoid Mary.
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What strikes me in the answers is that nobody has said "yeah, been there done that".
I feel really bad now :(
Milker.
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I don't think I've been in a sex club since seven years ago, when I dropped a bottle of amyl nitrate on top of some Puerto Rican at Steamworks in Old San Juan... we had a good cackle and that silly fag still wanted to fuck me.
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What strikes me in the answers is that nobody has said "yeah, been there done that".
I feel really bad now :(
Milker.
Oh please... I just haven't done it since my face sank in from lipo. Like disclosure is a non-issue when you're like that.
I used to live 4 blocks away from the legendary Bijoux in the East Village in the 90's. Though I went sometimes I didn't go near as much as one would think -- I mean it would have been so easy to have been there every day it was so close. I was always afraid I'd run into people I knew, as I was a rather known entity in Manhattan.
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Rats! I totallyjust lost the post I worked on, but I will try to rehash....
With all the talk I have seen online for "BB Parties" and such, I am wondering why some sex clubs haven't offered something like a Poz Only event. There seems to be an encouragment of sero-sorting lately, so I'm wondering if some sort of plan like that could be implemented to encourage that to happen more in the sex club realm. Kind of along the same idea of how some groups take safe sex info and condoms into bars these days. I don't know if that would work well or not. I'm just trying to think of other ideas that might help address this in a broader sense. Heck, for all I know, they may already be doing this sort of thing. Just another idea for a harm reduction approach.
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What strikes me in the answers is that nobody has said "yeah, been there done that".
I feel really bad now :(
Milker.
see post #9
Been there done that.... well, not with 20, but I can dream
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What strikes me in the answers is that nobody has said "yeah, been there done that".
I feel really bad now :(
Milker.
So you DO have more than a "millimeter" of conscience....I suspected as much, otherwise you wouldn't have come here to tell us your story.
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I had sex with 10 black men in a public park in 1997... I think someone put up a plaque commemorating the event.
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Rats! I totallyjust lost the post I worked on, but I will try to rehash....
With all the talk I have seen online for "BB Parties" and such, I am wondering why some sex clubs haven't offered something like a Poz Only event. There seems to be an encouragment of sero-sorting lately, so I'm wondering if some sort of plan like that could be implemented to encourage that to happen more in the sex club realm. Kind of along the same idea of how some groups take safe sex info and condoms into bars these days. I don't know if that would work well or not. I'm just trying to think of other ideas that might help address this in a broader sense. Heck, for all I know, they may already be doing this sort of thing. Just another idea for a harm reduction approach.
I'm not sure it would be something that the "public" would appreciate, but i personally would like such events.
Milker.
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And milker, I just haven't been in that environment since diagnosis. Otherwise, I would almost certainly say "been there".
DON'T allow yourself to feel awful about this. Again, I applaud your honesty in posting this. Obviously, something that needed to be discussed....about 70 posts in an hour or so.
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So you DO have more than a "millimeter" of conscience....I suspected as much, otherwise you wouldn't have come here to tell us your story.
What I'm asking, once again, is how do you guys that have been in this situation, that is, in a sex club with hard dicks around you, deal with your status and disclose it. I couldn't.
Milker.
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With all the talk I have seen online for "BB Parties" and such, I am wondering why some sex clubs haven't offered something like a Poz Only event.
I had thought of that too. Bars have leather night, bear night, drag night...
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I'm not sure it would be something that the "public" would appreciate, but i personally would like such events.
Milker.
Exactly. And so would I.
I suggest that we would not be the only two. The overall message I have heard on these forums has been that most of us prefer to try to sero-sort. And I have seen plenty of advertisments for BB Parties for what I believe is the same reason. The fact that you say you would like such an event makes me think it is an idea worth considering. If I was going to go get my freak on in such a place again, I would consider attending something like that. I'm just tossing ideas like that and the stamp thing out there by way of brainstorming because I like harm reduction approaches. Making it easier on a broad scale for people to comfortably practice healthier behavior. That sort of thing might help people indulge while taking some of the pressure off.
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Hi,
If you cant disclose then dont do it.
Thats the good thing about a monogomous relationship. You only have to disclose once. :)
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Oh please... I just haven't done it since my face sank in from lipo. Like disclosure is a non-issue when you're like that.
Um ok. I'm going to bed.
Milker.
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Milker,
I've done more or less the same thing not once, but twice. Am I ashamed of it? Yes. Will I do it again? I really don't think so. The thing is, when you are in a situation like that, well, it is almost impossible to resist and say "NO".
The first time it happened I felt very sad and disturbed for some weeks. I was honest with myself --- just like you now --- and was pretty sure it would not happen again. Well, it did! And I did exactly the same things as before...
The solution? I don't go to sex clubs anymore. People who say the contrary haven't been to a sex club lately. Because it is indeed almost impossible to disclose in the heat of the action when you have all those guys around you. It just is!
I admire you honesty in venting it on here and hope you'll find the answer for something that could be as addictive as a drug. Please, be aware that if you go back to a sex club it may happen again. Remember, the flesh is indeed weak!
Another solution is safer-sex only. In that case, you gotta make sure that your stock in condoms is assured for the night. Be prepared, though, to have guys look you in the face with that are-you-crazy- look... And be prepared to go back home and finish with your own hands what you started in the sex club! I know, it sounds awful, but this is the lesson I've learned!
Val
___
___
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With all the talk I have seen online for "BB Parties" and such, I am wondering why some sex clubs haven't offered something like a Poz Only event.
I don't know if it's still on but I was aware of at least one such event in London. http://www.playpitplus.co.uk/pageone.htm (nothing NSFW on that site)
As for the original poster, I wouldn't beat yourself upabout it. I've done what you've done and I've hadunprotected sex with lots of guys without knowing their status. It's been a bit different for me in that most of it has been through gaydar and there seems to be some sort of unspoken assumption on there that if you meet for unprotected sex then you're probably poz. Certainly, in my experience, I think everyone I've ever had bb sex with on from there turned out to be poz. Even if I didn't know it at the time, it would come up in conversation later and neither of us were ever surprised. Saunas and sex clubs and stuff are a bit different but I think that same kind of assumption still takes place. I dont really have a conscience about these things I'm afraid to say, if someone is neg and having bb sex then it's bound to happen and I'm sure they mustknow that.
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I attended many parties last summer. Although I focused on one guy primarily, I certainly got involved with others.
The hosts culled guys from Manhunt. Their profiles state that he is HIV+. Everyone whom I knew at these things were poz, but I didn't know everybody, and many people came and went.
I've been invited twice to a club in Miami that is pretty infamous, but never made the connection at the last minute. Had I gone, I'd have not thought twice about it.
But when you say sexclub, I presume you mean something like an extended backroom situation (much like this club in Miami that's nothing but). baths would be much easier as long as you stay out of the viperpits. Small group interaction could be/should be disclosable, however awkward the moment might seem.
But I'm in the camp of believing that anyone entering such situations is an adult having made a reasonably informed judgement beforehand. I'd consider entree into such situations is tantamount to disclosure in and of itself.
Would I knowingly infect anyone? Most certainly not, but that's not what this is about. This is about the BB community such as it exists here and now. I don't question or condemn anyone's interest in it, nor assign any motive.
Brent
(Who knows about these things)
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I don't think I've been in a sex club since seven years ago, when I dropped a bottle of amyl nitrate on top of some Puerto Rican at Steamworks in Old San Juan... we had a good cackle and that silly fag still wanted to fuck me.
STEAM WORKS is closed and before i ever got to go there >:( lol.... milker i KNOW you are not the only one that has dealt with this problem because I used to live in fort lauderdale (in my tweaker days) and had my own reserved room at "the club" fort lauderdale (ok maybe not reserved but i went there VERY often)....I later found out many of the people i had sex with (BB) were poz and never told me....i didnt get infected by them because i tested negative after that.....but they had no problem fucking me without a condom because i didnt insist on one (my fault yes)....but honestly if i went to a sex club high or drunk id probably be faced by the same situation and dont know how id deal with it....I think it is everyones OWN RESPONSIBILITY to protect themselves but legally you are liable...and well since you do have a concience you will also have to deal with guilt if you later find out you were responsible for infecting someone (guilt sucks i know trust me)......but you are definatly not the only person that has had to deal with this issue and im sure there are many more that either arent posting or dont post here...
i became positive after that scare because i continued doing those things....do i blame the person that may have known their status and infected me? NO!!! i can blame no-one but myself....but for your own piece of mind i would probably try to find a way to disclose because if that person is into "bb" he will probably tell you "me too" when you do disclose....if not well look for another piece of ass (im sure youll find one there)
-josh
(who is still drunk and shouldnt be posting but continues lol.....and who will probably face the same dilema one night in the future because he just loves a sauna every now and again)
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bb sex in the first 2 to 3 years after infection is more possible to catch a second resistant strain of hiv i heard, after that it is less likely to get another strain something about
bb sex can lead to anal ghonarrea which if you dont catch can quickly become an anal abscesss horrible requiring surgury to drain and then can lead to fistula which requires a 4 inch long cut in anus to the muscle sfinkter months of rehab
bb sex can lead to mrsa infection in lung esp. if you tcell count is lower than 500 or even above
mrsa can get into blood or body and thrives in warm moist places and
poz guys can be and esp. tina crystal guys are covered with mrsa
a hetero st8t negative marine died of mrsa pnuemonia recently 18 years old
etc
but the issue is you are under stress
u just found out pozitive
takes a few years to get use too
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Well, I haven't been in a similar situation 'coz I haven't had sex post-HIV, but I think jknatl pretty much said most of what I was thinking.
This thread has made me think and I'm going to sleep on it and if this discussion is still going when I get up I might have something to add without being too abrasive(that's how I'm feeling right now).
Milker, you went to the sex club with the guy after you had sex with him right? Just wanted to get the scenario
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Milker... you're not the only one. I wanted to post a similar question days ago and didn't have the guts. I have never been to a sex club but I think the question is just as legitimate in a one on one situation where I intended to disclose and then things get going and well... I didn't. I kept insisting on condoms but he kept refusing and took it as some coy game I was playing. Even though nothing serious happened. I felt really guilty and shocked at myself. Thank you for your post. The responses have given me a lot to think about.
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I don't think I've put anyone in serious threat for HIV. I didn't cum in him. Nobody came in me.
Milker,
This is risky nevertheless. I caught hiv fucking a guy at the baths. I put a condom on, took it off after a while because I've never been comfortable with them, and because he said there was no problem. I did not come in him. I am cut. Only one such copulation happened. Still got hiv.
I went to a sauna some time later, having found out. Ended up in a cabin with a very sexy young guy who was really turning me on. He twice tried to get me inside him by sitting on me, I twice moved away. Told him I wasn't into that kind of play, we ended having mutual masturbation with lots of kissing. Of course I would have loved to go the whole way. Had no condoms with me, did not want to disclose. So I lied about my preferences and enjoyed the much more safe play (though not totally risk free) we had.
Not judging you, I am just trying to say that if you are inclined to visit such places there are still ways to enjoy yourself whilst keeping the risks very low, for yourself and for others. You mention a lot what he did/didn't do or say. Regardless, it is how you handle it that will lead to the experience being a satisfactory one or a sad one.
I would submit that alcohol or drugs are an important element of your story. Lots of fun can be had without them.
Being hiv positive, and knowing it, changes my life in many ways. My responsibilities towards myself and towards others are altered too. I think we all have to take this into account if we want to keep living life to the fullest of our capacities and desires and without denying our consciences.
Hope this helps
Pat
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What strikes me in the answers is that nobody has said "yeah, been there done that".
Yeah, been there done that!
(Boy, that was cathartic)
I can't believe I am saying this, but I was in a booth in a bookstore off of 8th Ave. - the next thing I know is this REALLY CUTE guy is backing into me. I kept screaming in my head "don't, I'm positive" while at the same time pounding away at him. At first I hated me, then I realized it was not me that I hated but what I did that I hated and I decided that I could not do that again.
There is no a right or wrong answer from a moral standpoint. We each decide our own morals when we are good and ready. For me, I now bring it up. The first couple of times was hard, but it got easier. I now try to serosort, and only go out with other positive guys - but there are always exceptions to the rules.
Although I have hope for a cure, there is not one in the near future. HIV can stop with us! I know that is corny, but we, as group of people living with HIV/AIDS have the ability to stop or significantly slow the spread of the virus. That does not mean that we can never have sex again, but there are ways to prevent the transmission of the disease.
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OK Milker,
Here is a quote from you: "What I'm asking, once again, is how do you guys that have been in this situation, that is, in a sex club with hard dicks around you, deal with your status and disclose it. I couldn't"
I have been in your situation, probably more that anyone here knows, and....... I have an answer that would be very helpful for you. However, due to the attacks during my last couple of week's participation here, I would humbly suggest that you ask Scottttt, Koi, Strong Guy and a few others of the "new moral compass" set, and the ones who have purported that HIV is no big thing anymore, so just let things happen....
I remain emotionally and directionally challenged,
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I would say that you can suck all the dick you want without disclosing. No one in the history of the epidemic has been infected by GETTING a blowjob. So I would say you are good to go there.
But as far as anal sex goes....... I would say you can get fucked all you like with a condom on them and same would go for you. This is a touchy subject but if you find yourself in a place where you feel you cant disclose at least limit the damage and prevent the spread of HIV where you can.
Just my opinion.
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Moffie, I would like you to quote me and show where I said AIDS is no big deal, you would find the opposite. Don't bring the other thread into this. You have plenty of a cheering section. So don't play the victim. It gets old.
rob
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Doesn't their have to be some judgement in life? All you hear is..I don't judge you or I wont judge you. For the MOST part I agree with it. But doesn't their come a time when a little judgement is okay? I mean what would become of society if no one ever judged anyone for anything? The excuse is always..your only human. What exactly does that mean? Yes of course we all make mistakes that is part of life..making them and LEARNING from them. If you make them and don't learn from them then you are not just human..but also not very smart. This is not an attack on any one individual. Just an attack on the standard I don't judge..he or she is only human argument. I think in fact a thoughtful response can be given along with some advice and or support. Yes honesty is wonderful but its also good to help guide that person to try doing the best thing both for them and others. Stopping the spread of this disease is number one in my book and trumps all. EVEN if the other person wants to get it. I am far from perfect but do my damnedest to make sure this disease stops with me.
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Milker, you went to the sex club with the guy after you had sex with him right? Just wanted to get the scenario
No I met him at the bar before the sex club, we talked, kissed, the conversation became very sexual and that's when he told me that he was a bareback boy. Then we went together to the sex club, i fucked him he fucked me, and I sucked plenty of other dick, and one other guy tried to fuck me bb but I stopped him.
Milker.
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Ended up in a cabin with a very sexy young guy who was really turning me on. He twice tried to get me inside him by sitting on me, I twice moved away. Told him I wasn't into that kind of play, we ended having mutual masturbation with lots of kissing.
That's a good advice, thanks.
Milker.
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I have an answer that would be very helpful for you. However, due to the attacks during my last couple of week's participation here, I would humbly suggest that you ask ..
Ill PM you. Thanks Moffie.
Milker.
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A woman's logic...
Daring to venture into this "darkroom" I suggest that you don't have to say you are positive - you can pretend to be negative and wanting to avoid the risk of contact with a person of unknown status. Therefore asking another person to put on a condom is for your own protection (which incedentally it is as there are other things you could catch I believe).
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look. the way i see it is it takes 2 to have safe sex. i used to frequent the bathhouse (club san diego) and i assumed that most if not all the guys that go there are positive. if you hook up at a sex club it is mostly annonymus so there is hardly ever any talk of using condoms. i'm pretty sure that's where i picked up my little virus.
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On the topic of this discussion, I want to thank Milker for having the fortitude to bring this topic to the fore. My son and I just had a very illuminating conversation stemming from this very topic. I'll explain more if anyone wishes.
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Dear Milker,
I applaud your courage and honesty in posting this !!
" i need help dealing with this "
no you don't, you only need yourself (you are a big boy) and God { if you have one} as your guide !!
The comments that you will received from others , well are just comments based on their experience and upbringing, which boils down finally to INTELLECTUAL MASTURBATION ; where before long will lead to a pissing contest and ....................................
bb or whatever , they know the sore !! Smoking causes cancer !! it is marked on the box, yet, people still smoke ...............................
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On the topic of this discussion, I want to thank Milker for having the fortitude to bring this topic to the fore. My son and I just had a very illuminating conversation stemming from this very topic. I'll explain more if anyone wishes.
Lisa, I think this topic is in the mind of many, whether or not they have actually done it. If my post has generated a good conversation about this with your son and has made other people think and reflect more about how they handle those situations and how to avoid them, then my real story will have served. I'm not proud of what I did, but seeing the responses and the PMs I got, I'm proud that I posted it.
Milker.
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milker
I am sorry hon, you know I care about you, but either this thread is a cry for help or you are desperately seeking attention.
AL
(who rarely sees a thread in the Living with HIV forum go beyond 2 pages)
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milker
I am sorry hon, you know I care about you, but either this thread is a cry for help or you are desperately seeking attention.
AL
(who rarely sees a thread in the Living with HIV forum go beyond 2 pages)
I do need attention like everyone else in here but that thread was not for that purpose at all.
Milker.
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To tell you the truth, I'll go you one further. Despite thinking that I had informed them of all of the truths of this disease, I found that during our conversation, that he was still unclear about blow jobs and the risk thereof(not).
We delved into several personal asides, and had a frank conversation about HPV. I fessed up to what happens to me when I have an outbreak, and he thinks that maybe he has it too.
We decided that it would be a good start to have his first testing.
We've had this discussion before, and he disclosed his reticence about going(by himself), and I offered to go with him for moral support(but not in 'mommy' capacity).
Kudos to you friend. Thanks.
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milker
I am sorry hon, you know I care about you, but either this thread is a cry for help or you are desperately seeking attention.
AL
(who rarely sees a thread in the Living with HIV forum go beyond 2 pages)
AL
What a terrible thing to say. Perhaps you should share your inventories of others in private messages, rather than posting them publicly. I ask myself, with your posting, just what you were trying to accomplish (as every writing has a motive). And all I can find is pettiness.
BTW, the motive of this writing is to let you know how inappropriately rude your posting was - in case you couldn't figure it out.
-joseph
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AL
What a terrible thing to say. Perhaps you should share your inventories of others in private messages, rather than posting them publicly. I ask myself, with your posting, just what you were trying to accomplish (as every writing has a motive). And all I can find is pettiness.
BTW, the motive of this writing is to let you know how inappropriately rude your posting was - in case you couldn't figure it out.
-joseph
I just find it hard to believe that someone is having orgies after diagnosed with HIV and 2 months later admits to having 20 dicks inside his mouth and is later concerned about his actions.
I can understand life goes on, but 20 dicks is an excessive amount, either you don't care anymore about yourself or you are a sex addict. I don't get it. People here write about thinking of death on a daily basis, their numbers going down, people ending up in the hospital and this thread gets more attention than those which I find more critical and where we all need to cooperate and help our fellow members.
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I just find it hard to believe that someone is having orgies after diagnosed with HIV and 2 months later admits to having 20 dicks inside his mouth and is later concerned about his actions.
The reality of life.
I can understand life goes on, but 20 dicks is an excessive amount,
Not in a sex club.
either you don't care anymore about yourself or you are a sex addict.
Sex addict yes. Do I care about myself? I don't know, maybe this is part of what led to my actions? No clue yet, and this is why I think this thread may help figuring that out by asking other people how they delt with this.
I don't get it. People here write about thinking of death on a daily basis, their numbers going down, people ending up in the hospital and this thread gets more attention than those which I find more critical and where we all need to cooperate and helped our fellow members.
Maybe because it's something that a lot of people can relate to, but never posted about it.
Milker.
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...gets more attention than those which I find more critical...
Thank you for your moral majority assessment. You can always feel free to ignore this thread, rather than to be so openly hostile to it's generator.
-joseph
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Thank you for your moral majority assessment. You can always feel free to ignore this thread, rather than to be so openly hostile to it's generator.
-joseph
Strayboy, do you have something against me. Because I don't have anything against you, on the contrary, when you wrote about your tush problem I was there to help you because that is a reality of life, people get tushy problems..
Milker just admited:
Sex addict yes. Do I care about myself? I don't know, maybe this is part of what led to my actions? No clue yet, and this is why I think this thread may help figuring that out by asking other people how they delt with this.
So it is a cry for help and he is a sex addict.
So Strayboy please don't address me in public if you have an issue with me, that is what PM's are for. And next time you have a question about your butt hurting because you got banged, I will be wise to know not to help you.
Al
(who cares about Milky and needed to find out what was behind this thread)
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" a cry for help "
when you have a dick in your mouth, you don't cry for help, it is another kind of sound you make !!
"desperately seeking attention "
when you have a dick up your's truthly, the kind of attention you want is that it go deeper and harder!!
this site here is like a diamond , in order for it to shine, it has to have a number of cuts, find one where you can post those nice pictures of yours !!
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Strayboy, do you have something against me. Because I don't have anything against you, on the contrary, when you wrote about your tush problem I was there to help you because that is a reality of life, people get tushy problems..
The truth is, it is the open judgement of people like you who keep such topics in the darkness and perpetuate shame, guilt, and transmission. Prudish, to say the least.
-joseph
(edited to express how I truly feel and to remove pleasantries.)
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I always thought an addiction is something that takes control of your life. If I go out and get shit faced drunk once every so often am I an alcoholic? If I go to a sex club (disclosure aside for the sake of argument) it is with the intent of having sex and alot of it. Am I an addict if I do it just on a rare occasion? Is it having 20 dicks in your mouth on one night or constantly having sex with 1 person. I don't think it is the amount, but what it is doing to your life. Only you can decide that.
Woods
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" a cry for help "
when you have a dick in your mouth, you don't cry for help, it is another kind of sound you make !!
"desperately seeking attention "
when you have a dick up your's truthly, the kind of attention you want is that it go deeper and harder!!
lol
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Sex addiction consumed my life at one point. I get where milker is coming from.
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Ihavehope,
Now that you have digested and come to the conclusion that Milker is a sex addict, and that he is crying out for help, and now that you have disrupted this thread to the usual amount that you find acceptable; please share with us your wise clinical conclusions that actually might help someone who is really a sex addict, or crying out for help.
You see, Joseph really has a point with your penchant for interrogation, and one of your habits here is to do so with little or no thought about a really constructive answer. Curiosity is not a sin and should be encouraged, but speaking without any point or conclusion is often times not constructive or in any way helpful at all. Judging people here is also completely counterproductive and you need to stop now. Your age is definately showing.
I now await your conclusions and your constructive and supportive answers to a question about a particular situation that more than one of us have found ourselves in at one time or another.
Love,
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Mof,
please do not hijack Milker's thread. If you want to ask me a question about my beliefs and judge me then please use the PM.. I am surprised a young person like myself need to remind a mature person like yourself that it is not nice to hijack a thread.
Al :-*
(who still wonders about Moffie's intentions)
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Al,
This is a discussion forum, and you entered the discussion and I responed in like kind.
I am awaiting your clinical conclusions.....................................
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... I will be wise to know not to help you.
Yours is help I could certainly do without.
-joseph
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Ok, here is my take. And, realize that I love bareback sex, it is all I participate in, and I am upfront about it. I also enjoy sex clubs, bathhouse and online hook ups. I am sorry if this offends the the "high holly, perfect, judegemental, almighty purtians" on this forum but hey it is the TRUTH.
If a dude takes your dick up his ass raw, most likely he is poz or does not care. Anytime I have had that happen I tell the dude that I am poz and I will cum in him, each time the answer has been, "cool", "ok", "go for it", "so am I". So that conversation is non issue. Try it ..... plus it is a turn on to me to know a dude will take my cum in his ass ..... you are upfront, you communicated and they accepted the risk. Personally I do not ask if they are poz or neg but I make them aware that by doing this, I could poz them.
If you are on the floor sucking cock, and you have no open sores in your mouth, the risk to them is so little that frankly, I do not disclose. You are suckin their dick, incredibly, HIGHLY unlikely that you will do them anyharm, so seriously .... have fun. Again I know the puritans on this sight may bash me for this but has there EVER been a case of a poz dude sucking a neg dude and making him poz???? Show me proof! Again, have fun, enjoy it.
Now, if a top sticks his raw cock up you, I just say, "I am poz and you can cum in me if you want" .... this works they either pull out and fill me up. The ones that pull out usually sorry, I cannot take that risk and I say, "I understand, no worries, be careful and have fun" Again, not always fun to say "I am poz" but you need to tell them of the risk the are taking.
It will get easier .... believe me.
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No, Al, it was YOU who hijacked Milker's thread with your judgmental nonsense and your half-baked "diagnosis" of sex addiction. And you can cut out the totally passive-aggressive jabs.
Not a warning, per se, but you're on the cusp of one.
Tim Horn
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Pretty good advice sdcab. And good ways to put things. This is how things are SUPPOSED to work.
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Ok, here is my take. And, realize that I love bareback sex, it is all I participate in, and I am upfront about it. I also enjoy sex clubs, bathhouse and online hook ups. I am sorry if this offends the the "high holly, perfect, judegemental, almighty purtians" on this forum but hey it is the TRUTH.
If a dude takes your dick up his ass raw, most likely he is poz or does not care. Anytime I have had that happen I tell the dude that I am poz and I will cum in him, each time the answer has been, "cool", "ok", "go for it", "so am I". So that conversation is non issue. Try it ..... plus it is a turn on to me to know a dude will take my cum in his ass ..... you are upfront, you communicated and they accepted the risk. Personally I do not ask if they are poz or neg but I make them aware that by doing this, I could poz them.
If you are on the floor sucking cock, and you have no open sores in your mouth, the risk to them is so little that frankly, I do not disclose. You are suckin their dick, incredibly, HIGHLY unlikely that you will do them anyharm, so seriously .... have fun. Again I know the puritans on this sight may bash me for this but has there EVER been a case of a poz dude sucking a neg dude and making him poz???? Show me proof! Again, have fun, enjoy it.
Now, if a top sticks his raw cock up you, I just say, "I am poz and you can cum in me if you want" .... this works they either pull out and fill me up. The ones that pull out usually sorry, I cannot take that risk and I say, "I understand, no worries, be careful and have fun" Again, not always fun to say "I am poz" but you need to tell them of the risk the are taking.
It will get easier .... believe me.
Think that covers this subject very well. Put a fork in it, cause it's done.
Woods
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ATTN: Ihavehope - who the he11 are you to make the decision that milker is a sex addict? What people choose to do is their own choice .... this whole thread was about "how to disclose" not make milker feel guilty about having a night of slutty fun. Get off his fuckin case!!!
And, by the way, addiction is something that consumes your life to the point of destroying parts of your life. If he was out doing it everyday and losing friends, family and jobs because of it, then he has a problem. If it happens once a month or so, then well, in my opinion he is NORMAL!
Lets put it this way, I enjoy going out and gettin toasted once a month or so, I am NOT an alcoholic. I enjoy going out to a bath or sexclub and have aLOT of wild and kinky sex one night every month or two; I am not a sex addict. And, for the record, if you think him suckin 20 dicks in a night is bad, I would love to see the look on your face when i tell you I have had 26 guys cum in my ass in a four hour period in a sling in sex club once ..... and, fuck I am damn proud because each knew I was poz!!!! Again, I am not a sex addict because I am not doing that or thinking about it on a daily basis.
Lastly, I am addicted to cigarettes. I think about smoking when I can not. I find way to get my smoke. I do it every day and am a total addict!
So, it seems that I KNOW what addiction is and YOU do not!
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Ihavehope
YOU ARE BEING CONDESCENDING WITH REGARDS TO Tim (Moffie)
BTW i received your PM , to your question of "do i know you ? "
NO YOU don't and i don't wish to have that privilege!!
AND I CERTAINLY DO NOT NEED YOU TO POST A FACE PIC OF MINE IN THE OFF TOPIC EITHER !!
Ihavehope, well chosen , well , ihavenews FOR you, i did not arrived here yesterday !!
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Water duck,
It is so nice to see you return back to discussion. I don't want to derail this, but just wanted to say glad to see you again!
Love,
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sdcabincrew, this was a VERY VERY HELPFUL POST, because it sounded very real life to me, and makes me think that being in those clubs AND making sure that I'm not posing a risk to a negative person IS possible. Your post looks like everything can be said in a very natural and simple manner, not like having to have HIV POZ written on my forehead, on my dick and on my ass, and that from your experience people are cool about it, whether this stops or continues the action, it's all fine you still had fun.
Thank you,
Milker.
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Water Duckie
please do not hijack Milker's thread. If you want to ask me a question about my beliefs and judge me then please use the PM.. I am surprised a young person like myself need to remind a mature person like yourself that it is not nice to hijack a thread.
Al
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sdcabin,
I can sure tell you are a "cabin crew", your post was sucinct, and well delivered, and like Woods, I agree you just about covered it all.
Thanks,
Love,
(Al, please go to your room!)
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Ihavehope...
Okay, now you've got your warning. Just one more and I'll have you on a Time Out before this "Good Friday" is over and done with.
Tim Horn
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Al,
I know you've been shocked by this thread and angry about me. It seems that you don't understand the situation or do not want to listen to it today. I know you want to help, but you're doing more bad for yourself right now. Let it go, babe.
Milker.
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sdcabincrew, this was a VERY VERY HELPFUL POST, because it sounded very real life to me, and makes me think that being in those clubs AND making sure that I'm not posing a risk to a negative person IS possible. Your post looks like everything can be said in a very natural and simple manner, not like having to have HIV POZ written on my forehead, on my dick and on my ass, and that from your experience people are cool about it, whether this stops or continues the action, it's all fine you still had fun.
Thank you,
Milker.
No problem. To me, nothing hotter than swappin cum with a dude. If they are up for it, most likely it is a non issue for them. The worst situations I have been in is when top sticks his cock in me in a dark room and then I just let him know. A simple "you can cum in me, I am poz" works perfectly. The majority of the time they continue and finish the deed, a few times, they have pulled out and apologized or said "thanks for telling me" and they move on. No judgement has ever occurred and there was NEVER any hard feelings. All people know the risks of HIV and STD's and lets face it if you are in a sexclub or bathhouse .... well, you are accepting those risks if you are running around stickin your raw cock up dudes ass's or taking raw cock up your ass.
Here is my favorite, at a bath house, the dude asks for a condom, I say "sorry, do not have them and my lube is oil based" they say, "are you clean?" I always answer like this "of course I am clean, I hate shitty fucks, but I am poz" That gets a laugh out them and then we either continue or they say they cannot .... the "shitty fuck" part adds humor and there is no hard feelings .....
Granted I have lost a few really great fucks by being honest but the guilt afterward would just be such a downer it would not be worth it. By the way, where were you, I need to check that place out! Have a great holiday weekend hon, again, it does get easier and being POZ is not the stigma that it once was.
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sdcabin,
I can sure tell you are a "cabin crew", your post was sucinct, and well delivered, and like Woods, I agree you just about covered it all.
Thanks,
Love,
(Al, please go to your room!)
Thanks Tim, I wish I could write as well as you. yeap I am a flight attendant, quick and to the point but always with a smile. I make no apologies for who I am or what I do or have done. But I do apologize all the time for things my airline constantly screws up, LOL. Blunt, honest and to the point is usually best in all situations! I always enjoy your posts, even the darker ones, because they are certainly a reality check and ... nevermind, not going to hijack and get things all worked up over your previous posts. Just know that I do enjoy them.....I hope the easter bunny leaves you something nice :)
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sdcabincrew, this was a VERY VERY HELPFUL POST, because it sounded very real life to me, and makes me think that being in those clubs AND making sure that I'm not posing a risk to a negative person IS possible. Your post looks like everything can be said in a very natural and simple manner, not like having to have HIV POZ written on my forehead, on my dick and on my ass, and that from your experience people are cool about it, whether this stops or continues the action, it's all fine you still had fun.
Thank you,
Milker.
Oh Milky
Girl, you need to start valuing yourself and take precautions of yourself as well as others. Sex addiction is a real disease and you should talk to a specialist of this matter because it can lead to serious consequences. And if you ever get the urge to have lots of sex and get drunk. U can call me, this way you are out of danger. ;)
Al
(who is still here)
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Oh the impetuousness of youth.... I really miss it, but I also was a difficult "learn" and usually pushed the envelope to the breakage point.
Love,
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Oh Milky
Girl, you need to start valuing yourself and take precautions of yourself as well as others. Sex addiction is a real disease and you should talk to a specialist of this matter because it can lead to serious consequences. And if you ever get the urge to have lots of sex and get drunk. U can call me, this way you are out of danger. ;)
Al
(who is still here)
Al,
Again, who the hell are you to pass this judgement. You do NOT have the right to make these sorts of judgements. Lay off, he asked a question that most all attractive gay men who are poz are going to have to deal with. Let it go dude!!!! Or better yet get back to sending your donations to the jerry fallwell! And, those that live in glass houses should NOT throw stones!!!!
SD
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Oh Milky
Girl, you need to start valuing yourself and take precautions of yourself as well as others. Sex addiction is a real disease and you should talk to a specialist of this matter because it can lead to serious consequences. And if you ever get the urge to have lots of sex and get drunk. U can call me, this way you are out of danger. ;)
Al
(who is still here)
I said yes I'm a sex addict but reading the definition of sex addiction, it's not me: "an overwhelming need for sex and are so intensely preoccupied with this need that it interferes with your job and your relationships. [...] You may spend inordinate amounts of time in sexually related activities and neglect important aspects of your day-to-day life in social, occupational and recreational areas. You may find yourself failing repeatedly at attempts to reduce or control your sexual activities or desires."
I think I meant i'm a sex addict like i'm a mashed potatos addict, I crave it and will drive 2 hours for it if need be, but it has not impaired my work, my relationships or my social life, and I do not feel the need to reduce or control my sexual activities. I only had sex twice in the last month (not including wednesday's story) and last time I was in a sex club was 2 years ago. Before being diagnosed HIV+ I had sex maybe twice a week, with pauses of about two weeks to a month.
Milker.
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Ihavehope/Al --
You're account is now officially on ice for a week. And don't even think about creating another account to get around this Time Out; a permanent ban will be automatic.
Tim Horn
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I said yes I'm a sex addict but reading the definition of sex addiction, it's not me: "an overwhelming need for sex and are so intensely preoccupied with this need that it interferes with your job and your relationships. [...] You may spend inordinate amounts of time in sexually related activities and neglect important aspects of your day-to-day life in social, occupational and recreational areas. You may find yourself failing repeatedly at attempts to reduce or control your sexual activities or desires."
I think I meant i'm a sex addict like i'm a mashed potatos addict, I crave it and will drive 2 hours for it if need be, but it has not impaired my work, my relationships or my social life, and I do not feel the need to reduce or control my sexual activities. I only had sex twice in the last month (not including wednesday's story) and last time I was in a sex club was 2 years ago. Before being diagnosed HIV+ I had sex maybe twice a week, with pauses of about two weeks to a month.
Milker.
Milker do not defend yourself to him. NO you are not an addict, when it comes to sex. Do not apologize and do not explain yourself, there is no need.
SD
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I said yes I'm a sex addict but reading the definition of sex addiction, it's not me: "an overwhelming need for sex and are so intensely preoccupied with this need that it interferes with your job and your relationships. [...] You may spend inordinate amounts of time in sexually related activities and neglect important aspects of your day-to-day life in social, occupational and recreational areas. You may find yourself failing repeatedly at attempts to reduce or control your sexual activities or desires."
I think I meant i'm a sex addict like i'm a mashed potatos addict, I crave it and will drive 2 hours for it if need be, but it has not impaired my work, my relationships or my social life, and I do not feel the need to reduce or control my sexual activities. I only had sex twice in the last month (not including wednesday's story) and last time I was in a sex club was 2 years ago. Before being diagnosed HIV+ I had sex maybe twice a week, with pauses of about two weeks to a month.
Milker.
Sounds like you meet the definition of "Sex Aficionado" - which I just made up, and it's a good thing to be. :)
I used to drive 6 hours for sex when I lived in the Midwest... of course, I was 16 then, and stupid. :)
-joseph
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May I remind those that this topic is not about sex addiction or lack thereof.
The topic has nothing to do with whether it is 1 or 20 or 100.
And I don't recall him asking or even indicating any desire to change, but how to deal with the situation when it presents itself.
/cracks whip.
Back to the topic bois and girls.
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.
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Milker,
Also, it is rare that an actual addict would be able to create this thread, or be able to sustain actual discussion about it. I sincerely believe that you are us, we are you and there is little or no reason to believe you are addicted to sex. That is a bird of a totally different color.
I just find this discussion and the pople that have contributed to it constructively very enlightening. All this time, I thought I was the only one here, but this thread certainly tells me that this is not the case at all.
Disclosure does tend to set you free, so we all learned that today.
Love,
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I can tell you as a former sex addict I was doing it EVERY DAY. It was interfering with EVERYTHING i did. I lied to everyone about it and would protect my addiction at every possible turn. If not for getting narced out by one of my "regulars" at one of the Bookstores I would have done a great deal more damage to several more people.
So I would say you are far from an addict.
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6 hrs pheww.. ok. I don't feel so bad for driving 5 hours R/T lol. Looking back I can't believe I did that.
LOL from Ft. Madison, Iowa, to Chicago Illinois, baby! Just to hang out for a few hours and have wild, crazy, unprotected sex with so many strangers, whom I never asked for status. Yep, young and stupid... Not once did I ask. Amazing, it was, that I remained negative until the age of 30.
The impetuousness of youth, indeed.
-joseph
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Dear Milker,
What hits me when i re-read #125 is the guilt factor that is present there.
From a social context, guilt is negative and constrictive, it really prevent us from moving forward !!
Therefore, you had found SD's posts refreshing !! Points to bear in mind from his posts are :
You don't need to defend or explain yourself !!
Those that uses bath houses or sex club or whatever, know what they are in for !!
Let your new motto to your dick be : STAY hard long time, i want to conquer the world ;) ;)
Be well be happy !!
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What's done is done, you can't go back and change it, just hope you didn't infect ( or re-infect) the person you topped without a condom, and avoid such situations in the future and move on.
The "caveat emptor" approach advocated by some is completely wrong...and as a segue... the type of thinking that got many of us here in the first place ( I'm not one to blame the "victim" as it were). Further, this caveat emptor attitude is exactly the type of attituded that has resulted in the felony laws in many states regarding non-disclosure of hiv status, California being one.
So, put condoms in your wallet and hook up one on one with disclosure.
HIV changes your life in many ways, if this is the only way it changes your life you should consider yourself fortunate.
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This is why HIV will always be around with and because of drugs, alcohol and sex addiction.
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interesting theory... but hardly explains africa my dear.
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LOL from Ft. Madison, Iowa, to Chicago Illinois, baby! Just to hang out for a few hours and have wild, crazy, unprotected sex with so many strangers, whom I never asked for status. Yep, young and stupid... Not once did I ask. Amazing, it was, that I remained negative until the age of 30.
The impetuousness of youth, indeed.
-joseph
You are not saying that this kind of action is right are you?
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interesting theory... but hardly explains africa my dear.
Yes it does. Plenty of unprotected sex there.
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You are not saying that this kind of action is right are you?
Read his post. He said Yep, young and stupid... Not once did I ask
Milker.
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You are not saying that this kind of action is right are you?
Who's to say it's wrong?
MtD
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I must say that one guy I had unprotected sex with knew he was positive and I hate his guts.
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You are not saying that this kind of action is right are you?
Who's to say it's wrong?
MtD
I would think some people would. I don't want to pass it to anyone.
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I would think some people would.
Some people think that the earth is flat, believe in intelligent design and maintain that Ryan Seacrest deserved a star on that street in Hollywood.
MtD
(Who has little time for what some people think)
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This is why HIV will always be around with and because of drugs, alcohol and sex addiction.
Your assumption! Not based on fact at all, and all your subsequent posts show judgement of the first order.
Sorry, red, you are wrong here. I think you need to re-read the whole thread and find that many of us are guilty by your measure. Unfortunately, you might have made a mistake to acquire HIV, but that doesn't imply in any sense that the plague will go on because of your one sentence judgement on all of us.
Love,
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Your assumption! Not based on fact at all, and all your subsequent posts show judgement of the first order.
Sorry, red, you are wrong here. I think you need to re-read the whole thread and find that many of us are guilty by your measure. Unfortunately, you might have made a mistake to acquire HIV, but that doesn't imply in any sense that the plague will go on because of your one sentence judgement on all of us.
Love,
the lady protest too much
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Your assumption! Not based on fact at all, and all your subsequent posts show judgement of the first order.
Sorry, red, you are wrong here. I think you need to re-read the whole thread and find that many of us are guilty by your measure. Unfortunately, you might have made a mistake to acquire HIV, but that doesn't imply in any sense that the plague will go on because of your one sentence judgement on all of us.
Love,
it was an observation not a jugdement.
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red, i'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. If it's "having unprotected sex with negative people when you're HIV plus is wrong", then yes, I think everybody agrees on here, including myself. Nowhere in my post nor in any answers I have seen/said anything that would promote or condone this behavior; this post is not about this.
Milker.
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And you my lady had read the Scarlett's letter too much
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wrong book
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it took me a while to take responsibility for myself and my virus. at first i saw it as no one tried to protect me so why protect them if they weren't capable of putting on a rubber. if he did. good for him. didn't really make a difference to me. a stiff one up your butt is all the same, bare or protected. it wasn't till i found someone that i cared about and at first i didn't know we would stay together more than a week. so i did. i put him in danger of catching my virus. we saw more and more of each other and moved in together. oh man how am i gonna get through this one? i can't let him get sick because of me. I'm starting to love this guy. we had unprotected sex a few times but for then on we have safe sex(little note It's AWESOME!) this was about 4 years ago. he has 2 negative tests since then and we are waiting for results that he will get Tuesday night. i really don't know what i will do if i have infected him. being careless can be just as devastating as a train wreck. it feels like it has that much gravity to me that for feelings of inadequacy i would put his health in jeopardy. i had just tested positive 1 month before i met him and was terrified to tell him. but i was getting pretty sick and i knew i needed medical attention so it all came out. we hard a pretty rough time but managed to get through it. now he is my biggest advocate. he is my bedrock. my total foundation. i love him so much. it scares me every single day what i might have done to him and we still don't know. Tuesday can't come fast enough for me but knowing how he feels waiting for the results makes me feel all the guiltier. so i don't even know where i was going with this but maybe taking responsibility for myself protects the ones i love. or the ones you sleep with until you love yourself and find love.
peace out
tim
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red, i'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. If it's "having unprotected sex with negative people when you're HIV plus is wrong", then yes, I think everybody agrees on here, including myself. Nowhere in my post nor in any answers I have seen/said anything that would promote or condone this behavior; this post is not about this.
Milker.
I know. But it has the longest staying time. I am just making a comment. I too have been in bath houses with hot guys and stiff dicks and i am amazed how many guys go in every weekend to have sex. I have only met a few who wanted unprotected sex; but, I did not mean to say that is what you or anyone mean to say.
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And, for the record I am NOT for giving others this virus. But I fully disclose and if they are willing anyway, well then, who am I to judge their actions.....we are all responsible for our own actions and decisions! Our "not my fault society" is a pure train wreck.
You and ONLY you are responsible for the decisions you make. Especially if I am the one fuckin your ass raw, because, frankly, I told you I am poz, you are informed and YOU made the decision to continue!
WOW - most bathhouses and sex clubs I have been to provide plenty of condoms, lubes and warnings, yet they are seldom used. Red and I must live in different world. Just disclose and then accept the decisions YOU made as YOUR decision and solely YOU are responsible for YOUR actions.
I do my part, I DISCLOSE. YOU need to do your part by taking care of yourself and living with YOUR decisions!
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it took me a while to take responsibility for myself and my virus. at first i saw it as no one tried to protect me so why protect them if they weren't capable of putting on a rubber. if he did. good for him. didn't really make a difference to me. a stiff one up your butt is all the same, bare or protected. it wasn't till i found someone that i cared about and at first i didn't know we would stay together more than a week. so i did. i put him in danger of catching my virus. we saw more and more of each other and moved in together. oh man how am i gonna get through this one? i can't let him get sick because of me. I'm starting to love this guy. we had unprotected sex a few times but for then on we have safe sex(little note It's AWESOME!) this was about 4 years ago. he has 2 negative tests since then and we are waiting for results that he will get Tuesday night. i really don't know what i will do if i have infected him. being careless can be just as devastating as a train wreck. it feels like it has that much gravity to me that for feelings of inadequacy i would put his health in jeopardy. i had just tested positive 1 month before i met him and was terrified to tell him. but i was getting pretty sick and i knew i needed medical attention so it all came out. we hard a pretty rough time but managed to get through it. now he is my biggest advocate. he is my bedrock. my total foundation. i love him so much. it scares me every single day what i might have done to him and we still don't know. Tuesday can't come fast enough for me but knowing how he feels waiting for the results makes me feel all the guiltier. so i don't even know where i was going with this but maybe taking responsibility for myself protects the ones i love. or the ones you sleep with until you love yourself and find love.
peace out
tim
i hear you.
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And, for the record I am NOT for giving others this virus. But I full disclose and they are willing anyway, well then, who am I to judge their actions.....we are all responsible for our own actions and decisions! Our "not my fault society" is a pure train wreck. You and ONLY you are responsible for the decisions you make. Especially if I am the one fuckin your ass raw, because, frankly, I told you I am poz, you are informed and YOU made the decision to continue!
But what about you? Could he pass to you something like Hep B & C. It is a two way street and you are also in danger.
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antibody/tim
You had now brought in another angle to look at this thread, that is sex that leads to love and a full and care relationship, which most of us here would like to have !!
But what we are talking about here is wanton sex, like when a bitch is on heat - that kind of sex :o
be truthful, we all have that kind of moments, why not throw off my "little red riding hood" outfit and just show the beast beneath ??
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WOW - most bathhouses and sex clubs I have been to provide plenty of condoms, lubes and warnings, yet they are seldom used. Red and I must live in different world. Just disclose and then accept the decisions YOU made as YOUR decision and solely YOU are responsible for YOUR actions.
I do my part, I DISCLOSE. YOU need to do your part by taking care of yourself and living with YOUR decisions!
condoms are there but not used because the guys that go there are high on drugs. sex isn't the only reason to go to the bathhouse. it's a drug house.
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But what about you? Could he pass to you something like Hep B & C. It is a two way street and you are also in danger.
Your concern for me is not needed. I am a big boy, I know the risks and I make decisions. I have been vaccinated for everything I can be. I get check ups for everything every six months and live with my decisions. It is not your place to be concerned for me or my health. I take responsibilities for my actions. I do not hate the person that infected me, because I am solely responsible for my life and what I do with it.
condoms are there but not used because the guys that go there are high on drugs. sex isn't the only reason to go to the bathhouse. it's a drug house.
WOW most bathhouses I go to are very strict with their rules about drugs and alcohol and they are strictly prohibited.....however they are there. Those people made decision to use those substances. Once again, PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY for ones own actions! Blaming drugs, alcohol or other people is a cop out! Grow up and take responsibility for your actions. I am so sick of the winey "poor me" attitudes! You did it, live with it!
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red_Dragon
YES !!
I was in the bathhouse the other day, they usually give out 2 types of packets, one is gel , the other is condom. This guy used the gel, when , i ask what about the condom, he replied he does not like it.
I said NO !! and walk out !!
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO
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red_Dragon
YES !!
I was in the bathhouse the other day, they usually give out 2 types of packets, one is gel , the other is condom. This guy used the gel, when , i ask what about the condom, he replied he does not like it.
I said NO !! and walk out !!
YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY NO
AMEN! You made a decision and took responsibility for your own actions. That is what I am talking about!!!
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the few here are pretty seedy and drug infested. they have rules posted on the wall. kinda like cider house rules. drugs are prevalent not that everyone is on meth but it could be poppers, alcohol. don't take this as judgemental
i'm just saying it gos on in my town for sure. i've been there. seen it. done it.
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the few here are pretty seedy and drug infested. they have rules posted on the wall. kinda like cider house rules. drugs are prevalent not that everyone is on meth but it could be poppers, alcohol. don't take this as judgemental
i'm just saying it gos on in my town for sure. i've been there. seen it. done it.
i agree it is there. but those people choose to do those things. i still tell them i am poz. if they are too fucked up to think about what the results of their chemically induced decisions are, that is not my problem. I disclose, I do my part. Their part is to not get so fucked up that they cannot make a rational decision. THEY and only THEY are responsible for their actions. You do not hear drunk drivers who kill entire families saying running around screaming it was not their fault. Yes, it was, they are responsible for their OWN actions!
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Yes they gave me the two condoms when I entered the club, I forgot about that ! Remember, initially I was only planning to have unprotected sex with that particular guy, think serosorting here, so I didn't care about the condoms. I stopped the only guy that tried to insert his dick in me. It could have been a lot worse, and this is why I posted this thread, to know how to avoid the risks, how to disclose in that setting, and have fun without jeopardizing the life of other people.
Milker.
PS: at that club I didn't smell poppers and didn't see anybody taking drugs or offering me anything. Doesn't mean they didn't do drugs, of course, but people didn't seem "high" on drugs, rather high on sex like me :)
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Ok, I am done with this thread. Milker did the right thing, he stopped the guy. Amoungst all the BS of this thread there is some good advice on how to handle the situation in the future. So have the best day everyone and let the guilt go and take some personal responsibility for your own actions.
have the greatest day! And, I hope the easter bunny bring you all lots of chocolate, which is almost as good as sex, but not quite!
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THANK YOU SD
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well, if you bite of the head of the chocolate bunny, it makes a nice hole. :o
multitasking if you ask me.
It still comes down to ones personal compass and what is comfortable for 'them' and them only.
Moral condemnation doesn't make the issue or behavior magically go away.
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You are not saying that this kind of action is right are you?
I did what I did. But I'd be happy to say that you're an asshole for passing judgment on the actions of others if your intention was to shame me. And I believe it was. Experiences are to be learned from, not to use against others to give them guilt.
And for the record, I don't give a frog's fat ass what you think. You did something to get HIV too, I just did it with unbridled fervor. After all, something worth doing is worth doing well.
-joseph
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Yes they gave me the two condoms when I entered the club, I forgot about that ! Remember, initially I was only planning to have unprotected sex with that particular guy, think serosorting here, so I didn't care about the condoms. I stopped the only guy that tried to insert his dick in me. It could have been a lot worse, and this is why I posted this thread, to know how to avoid the risks, how to disclose in that setting, and have fun without jeopardizing the life of other people.
Milker.
PS: at that club I didn't smell poppers and didn't see anybody taking drugs or offering me anything. Doesn't mean they didn't do drugs, of course, but people didn't seem "high" on drugs, rather high on sex like me :)
Look Milker, I had been there and done that. i was just too afraid to admit it. I just was not thinking about the danger of infecting others. I didn't mean to imply anything except that we all should practice safe sex. I guess that I am still in shock and never want to pass the HIV thing to anyone. I am also afraid that the government will come down hard on people who don't care or don't know that are transmitting the HIV virus.
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I did what I did. But I'd be happy to say that you're an asshole for passing judgment on the actions of others if your intention was to shame me. And I believe it was. Experiences are to be learned from, not to use against others to give them guilt.
And for the record, I don't give a frog's fat ass what you think. You did something to get HIV too, I just did it with unbridled fervor. After all, something worth doing is worth doing well.
-joseph
??? Did not mean to shame you. Just asking?
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I didn't mean to imply anything except that we all should practice safe sex.
And that is a PERSONAL preference.
There frankly isn't much behind that idea in my opinion in regard to other STD's. It's an acknowledged risk and I assume personal responsibility for anything I catch.
Why won't others?
On that note, you stated you hate the person who 'gave' you this, but as far as I can tell, they didn't necessarily know themselves.
To me that says alot that you may not have accepted personal responsbility for your infection regardless of the actions of another and I think that may have some impact in your posts in this thread.
No judgements, just my observation and mine alone.
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Honestly, what I think now is irrelevant. I can't change my past. So what's the point of pontificating my actions as a youth? So, whether I think what I did or not is okay, is totally a moot point.
And, if you're not passing judgement, and yet you feel like an asshole, it's just a coincidence; and, I both forgive you and apologize.
I'm just tired of people playing the shame game.
-joseph
(who is often an asshole for other reasons)
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And that is a PERSONAL preference.
On that note, you stated you hate the person who 'gave' you this, but as far as I can tell, they didn't necessarily know themselves.
To me that says alot that you may not have accepted personal responsbility for your infection regardless of the actions of another and I think that may have some impact in your posts in this thread.
No judgements, just my observation and mine alone.
I am pretty sure he wasn't the one who gave me hiv; plenty of guys could of. but he was the one who knew he had hiv and had sex with me and his boyfriend anyway. i caught hiv in 86 when i did not believe Aids existed so i am not an angel. i am not passing judgement and it is hard to convey my meaning just with words. sorry for sounding like a hater.
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I have been in your situation, probably more that anyone here knows, and....... I have an answer that would be very helpful for you.
Moffie.
I'm about as much use in this thread as the proverbial bum-gas in an astronaut suit.
However you appear to have some good advice for Miker. I might have lost it reading through this thread, but what was it?
I'm keen to see Miker get some good advice, and it appears you got some. Don't get bogged down with the 'young-gun vs oldie' argument. Miker needs some help here. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see your value on this forum.
R
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thank you red. I was not clear on your backstory and that explains more.
edit: which to me read more like a 'newbie'. a perfect example of miscommunication online.
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Honestly, what I think now is irrelevant. I can't change my past. So what's the point of pontificating my actions as a youth? So, whether I think what I did or not is okay, is totally a moot point.
And, if you're not passing judgement, and yet you feel like an asshole, it's just a coincidence, and, I both forgive you and apologize.
I'm just tired of people playing the shame game.
-joseph
No problem. I am in a support group for HIV and it is easy to pass judgement but I and we don't. What I try to do is make the person feel comfortable and let him or her know my life experiences. I am over the guilt somewhat, and I really try to support the new members.
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Don't get bogged down with the 'young-gun vs oldie' argument.
I don't think he would at the moment. Most of the perpetuators of that are gone at the moment.
It's shaping up to be a very Good Friday.
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I think it's good that this topic was finally out in the open. I am very pleased that in general it has been discussed by most in a honest and very useful fashion, everyone has expressed their views and concerns, some were a bit too shocked to understand, but this is part of our life for many of us.
Milker.
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As Milker said, "this is a part of life for many of us here." And that means judgements, put-downs, pseudo-clinical evaluations, labels and such don't really have any useful place here.
Milker brought up something about which as I get it he is himself looking to better understand his actions and handle more to his satisfaction in his life.
I don't agree with some of the evaluations that have been made here. What I do think is useful is for people to simply talk from the heart and the brain about their own experiences, what has worked and not worked for them in relation to their sexuality.
I will say that I prefer that wisecracks and other such diversions get parked at the door. They seem to derail the dialogue and not infrequently lead to flaming.
I'm wondering about what's the best way for us to learn more here that will enable us to help each other and ourselves? I suggest tucking that somewhere into your thoughts as this conversation continues.
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Is it just me or did the Easter Bunny deliver a lot of bad eggs today?
And on another note, and yes I am hijacking in a way, I'd like to put Strayboy in a sling and ram him for 5 hours... and you know I'm not even a top.
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Is it just me or did the Easter Bunny deliver a lot of bad eggs today?
And on another note, and yes I am hijacking in a way, I'd like to put Strayboy in a sling and ram him for 5 hours... and you know I'm not even a top.
That's so sweet.
:)
Happy Easter to you, too!
-joseph
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You're not hijacking it in a way, Philly. You ARE hijacking the thread. Cut it out.
I was just about to modify what I had just written when I re-opened the thread and found your totally gratuitous remark.
What I was going to add and will instead enter it here is that when talking about sex comes up, very often dealing with issues about it often gets sidetracked with flirting, joking and just exactly what you have done here, Philly. A comment which in no way contributes to the discussion in a positive way.
Milker has brought up something that he's trying to deal with. Dealing with sexuality is an ongoing process. No matter what someone's background or age or anything is, it's often difficult to talk openly about sex. It involves greater intimacy, an intimacy which can be uncomfortable at times.
So your remarks about Easter bunny bad eggs and Strayboy in a sling is not what I consider a way to encourage members here to talk seriously about this subject.
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I was just about to modify what I had just written when I re-opened the thread and found your totally gratuitous remark.
COME ON, ANDY... I DON'T GET COMPLIMENTS THAT OFTEN, JUST LET THIS ONE SLIDE! PRETTY PLEASE!!!???
:)
-joseph
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Sorry... the thread seemed destroyed six hours ago or surely I wouldn't have posted that compliment to another poster. Again... my apologies.
And for what it's worth Andy I didn't see your post until after I'd posted mine (note the post's time stamps).
But I do take your advice to heart.
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It's interesting that this post is reaching almost 200 replies in less than 24h.
To me it's definitely something that had to be said, and I really hope that contributors and anonymous readers got some insight on how to deal with this. I do not think that everyone will agree with sdcabin's posts, but this is the way i'm going to try to deal with it, because those were the posts that I related to the most. I'm sure that other readers have a different view, and i'd like to hear from them, as long as you remember the setting. I'm not going to give up on backroom sex. If this is not your thing, then it's not a post for you.
Milker.
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Sorry... the thread seemed destroyed six hours ago or surely I wouldn't have posted that compliment to another poster. Again... my apologies.
And for what it's worth Andy I didn't see your post until after I'd posted mine (note the post's time stamps).
But I do take your advice to heart.
Philly, you posted at the same time as Andy, no worries, your post was hot, just not appropriately placed. Start a new topic about what you said in Off Topic, I'll reply ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Milker.
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I really hope that contributors and anonymous readers got some insight on how to deal with this. I do not think that everyone will agree with sdcabin's posts, but this is the way i'm going to try to deal with it, because those were the posts that I related to the most.
Milker.
Wow. That is awesome. Good to see that a sort of resolution for the original poster was acheived.
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Wow. That is awesome. Good to see that a sort of resolution for the original poster was acheived.
Man if it takes 200 posts to get it right i'll take it. This has been very very very very helpful to me. Thank you all.
Milker.
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Hi Milker - I wanted to say that I have been in a similar position you have been in recently. I had sex with negative folks (by their own assertion) without diclosing. I gave them blow jobs and let them screw me..but otherwise I did not disclose. They didn't suck me or I didn't fuck them...pretty low risk right? Regardless I feel like a schlep. I've felt like this since day one of diagnosis. I have no explanation other than I didn't tell and they didn't ask. I am human, I have erred (Hi, I'm HIV positive) and continue to do so.
I am so glad you posted this so honestly and appreciate thsi venue to expree myself as well.
JP
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Hi Milker - I wanted to say that I have been in a similar position you have been in recently. I had sex with negative folks (by their own assertion) without diclosing. I gave them blow jobs and let them screw me..but otherwise I did not disclose. They didn't suck me or I didn't fuck them...pretty low risk right? Regardless I feel like a schlep. I've felt like this since day one of diagnosis. I have no explanation other than I didn't tell and they didn't ask. I am human, I have erred (Hi, I'm HIV positive) and continue to do so.
I am so glad you posted this so honestly and appreciate thsi venue to expree myself as well.
JP
Hi JP thanks for your honesty. I hope the posts that followed my original post will help you deal with this. It's not easy to be open about this.
Milker.
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I just wanted to be post #200. ;)
MtD
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Damn it all...my timing has been off for about a decade.
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I just wanted to be post #200. ;)
MtD
Well done LOL
If this topic hit 200 in 24 hours, to me it means that this is a serious situation that many gay people have encountered, and i'm in a mixed mood as why this topic did not get hit before, because it's obviously a hot topic given the amount of posts. Maybe I should start a thread asking about the "hidden part of being poz". Thinking about it I can't believe that in 2007 this topic has had to be hidden.
Sorry for my bad english. I just realize that there is something wrong because many of us are not disclosing our behaviors and I'm not sure I understand why.
Milker.
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I really hope that contributors and anonymous readers got some insight on how to deal with this. I do not think that everyone will agree with sdcabin's posts, but this is the way i'm going to try to deal with it, because those were the posts that I related to the most. I'm sure that other readers have a different view, and i'd like to hear from them, as long as you remember the setting. I'm not going to give up on backroom sex. If this is not your thing, then it's not a post for you.
Milker.
MILKER ~ Yes I got tons of insight from this thread, and it's because you opened up to this forum and you keep it real. Thank you
I'd love to see what types of reactions/answers (and especially facial expressions) one would get if you asked guys "Are you poz?" first
I can just imagine:
Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "Yeah"
Milker: "Me too" ;)
----------
Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "No"
Milker: "Well I'm poz and ______"
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Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "Why do you ask? Are you?"
Milker: "Yes, I'm poz, that's why I asked you"
Anon: "I'm poz too" ;)
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Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: "I don't know. Why do you ask?"
Milker: "Cuz I'm poz and you need to know that"
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Milker: "Are you poz?"
Anon: silence
Milker: "Hello. I asked if you're poz" (The premise here being that Anon has no way of knowing that maybe, just maybe Milker is neg)
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If this topic hit 200 in 24 hours, to me it means that this is a serious situation that many gay people have encountered, and i'm in a mixed mood as why this topic did not get hit before, because it's obviously a hot topic given the amount of posts. Maybe I should start a thread asking about the "hidden part of being poz". Thinking about it I can't believe that in 2007 this topic has had to be hidden.
No, we've discussed it before. I suspect one of the reasons it attracted so many posts was the neat little flamewar that broke out somewhere in the middle and the resultant temporary shit-canning of Al.
MtD :-*
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MIlker, it really has been discussed before. And I think it should be an ongoing discussion. Negotiating sex given the minefield of HIV is a conversation that needs to be had, over and over and over again.
In three months, someone else will instigate this same conversation, I assure you. And s/he will bemoan the fact that no one has talked about it here :).
I might not agree with the assessments and advice. I might be appalled at the stuff revealed. But I will vigorously defend a safe place to have the conversation. For the generation coming up, who might not have known AIDS as a deadly illness, who actually considers HIV a non-issue, these conversations will become more important, not less.
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MIlker, praise on your courage to post. Would like to discuss this more in PM but new here and can't figure out how to PM you (your email address lists as hidden). Long term survior here... 22 years. No OI's. Undetectable. Decent Tcells.
Some comments:
1) HIV is almost never transmitted by oral sex. Disclosure for oral isn't necessary. (only exception is if there iis risk of blood to blood direct contact, i.e. open cut on the penis or in the mouth).
2) BB sex is much more exciting when both partners know they are HIV+
3) When a guy asks me to fuck him BB I make disclosure part of erotic verbal, "So, you want my hard POZ cock deep in your hungry ass?" Response is either "Yeah, fuck me raw" or they decide not to get fucked.
4) Transmission to a top from HIV+ bottom is possible, but rare. I find that many neg guys choose to BB fuck poz guys after disclosure.
5) Neg guys have equal (or greater) responsibility to check HIV status if it is a concern to them.
6) Due to the incubation period where someone can test negative (or doesn't get tested) many guys can be poz without knowing it. Everyone needs to learn as much as they can and make educated decisions for themselves about sexual activity.
7) Most men know about HIV. Especially at a bathhouse or sex club.
PS: is your phone number here somewhere <big smile>
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MIlker, it really has been discussed before. And I think it should be an ongoing discussion. Negotiating sex given the minefield of HIV is a conversation that needs to be had, over and over and over again.
In three months, someone else will instigate this same conversation, I assure you. And s/he will bemoan the fact that no one has talked about it here :).
I might not agree with the assessments and advice. I might be appalled at the stuff revealed. But I will vigorously defend a safe place to have the conversation. For the generation coming up, who might not have known AIDS as a deadly illness, who actually considers HIV a non-issue, these conversations will become more important, not less.
I totally agree with everything in the above statement.
However milker, I wouldnt even know where to start commenting on your dilemma and wouldn't presume to, as a) I'm not a gay man and b) I don't even know what a back house is, although I could hazard a guess!
I just wanted to say I agree wholeheartedly that sex and 'negotiating the minefield of hiv' (by the way, couldn't think of a more accurate analogy) MUST continue to be discussed. I used to believe it was a simple black and white issue when it came down to sex when hiv+, as in, just use a condom. But I dunno nowadays...there are so many different scenarios and isses to be addressed.
Can't explain the whats or whys exactly just at the moment...just wanted to acknowledge that I understand such matters are and should be open for discussion and debate.
I salute you for bringing this subject to the forefront again, milker. And I hope you find the answers you're seeking.
Melia
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I know :( but i don't think i'm the only one. I'm honest here.
All bragadoccio and ethical grandstanding to the contrary... you are correct on this regard.
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Ok, here is my take. And, realize that I love bareback sex, it is all I participate in, and I am upfront about it. I also enjoy sex clubs, bathhouse and online hook ups. I am sorry if this offends the the "high holly, perfect, judegemental, almighty purtians" on this forum but hey it is the TRUTH.
If a dude takes your dick up his ass raw, most likely he is poz or does not care. Anytime I have had that happen I tell the dude that I am poz and I will cum in him, each time the answer has been, "cool", "ok", "go for it", "so am I". So that conversation is non issue. Try it ..... plus it is a turn on to me to know a dude will take my cum in his ass ..... you are upfront, you communicated and they accepted the risk. Personally I do not ask if they are poz or neg but I make them aware that by doing this, I could poz them.
If you are on the floor sucking cock, and you have no open sores in your mouth, the risk to them is so little that frankly, I do not disclose. You are suckin their dick, incredibly, HIGHLY unlikely that you will do them anyharm, so seriously .... have fun. Again I know the puritans on this sight may bash me for this but has there EVER been a case of a poz dude sucking a neg dude and making him poz???? Show me proof! Again, have fun, enjoy it.
Now, if a top sticks his raw cock up you, I just say, "I am poz and you can cum in me if you want" .... this works they either pull out and fill me up. The ones that pull out usually sorry, I cannot take that risk and I say, "I understand, no worries, be careful and have fun" Again, not always fun to say "I am poz" but you need to tell them of the risk the are taking.
It will get easier .... believe me.
At last, some real life advice...
let's face it folks, there are a lot of poz guys who are sex addicts ... a dubiously constructed category at times anyway, too often bandied about by people not getting any. How to deal responsibly and comfortably with yourself and the situation is a hard transition. Milker's experience isn't new or unique.
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But this is only one guy and there was this "silence" about hiv status.
My main question was "how the fuck do you disclose your status when you have 20 men around you with their dick poking your mouth" ?
Milker.
Answer: You Don't disclose jackshit, of course. It's an orgy. Whether you should be there is a different matter. There are risks for everyone there, you included.
Do you believe you will pass your hiv to these gentlemen by sucking their cocks? I don't. If you knew you were just treated for gonorrhea, then you have violated a number of holy writs, and better pray for forgiveness for carelessly spreading an STD.
ETHICS 102; Instructor Andrew Sullivan, M,W,F: If there were a small intimate Craig's List style get-together of "straight-acting All-American boys, 23-37, with washboard abs" who all said they "were disease free" to be there, you may not attend (even if you're a lovely Abercrombie bimbo), and should be struck down by lightening if you lie. Sure, they would be full of shit and at risk for their lousy hiv "screening" nonsense, but it does not give anyone the right to lie their way into the little shindig. Oh, and being high is not an excuse, for that kind of moral failing.
My thoughts on what to do IF YOU SIN BIG TIME; before "forgiving" oneself (very popular) require some a process of introspection followed by imposition of some rules of behavior. Whatever allowed you to knowingly do something you consider "wrong" must be faced. If sobriety is an issue you either fix it or admit to yourself that you are entirely insincere about the whole matter. Do all of that, then you can pray for redemption, because you probably deserve a few more chances.
Milker: Seriously, thanks for posting this. These kinds of explicit discussions need to take place among sexually active gay men. I've recently had a few conversations with young men, relatively new to sex, two face-to-face, and one on line. All three thought the sexual risk discussions were helpful, and all decided to modify this or that aspect of their approach. If might be one of the assets of being older, assumed wisdom. We discuss the sexual nitty-gritty, and I help them get over the avoid-the-hiv-lepers-at-all-cost-approach-to-longevity trap. I always urge them to check out the info here.
8) -megasept (your group sex ethics expert)
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edit: never mind :)
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Ok, here is my take. And, realize that I love bareback sex, it is all I participate in, and I am upfront about it. I also enjoy sex clubs, bathhouse and online hook ups. I am sorry if this offends the the "high holly, perfect, judegemental, almighty purtians" on this forum but hey it is the TRUTH.
If a dude takes your dick up his ass raw, most likely he is poz or does not care. Anytime I have had that happen I tell the dude that I am poz and I will cum in him, each time the answer has been, "cool", "ok", "go for it", "so am I". So that conversation is non issue. Try it ..... plus it is a turn on to me to know a dude will take my cum in his ass ..... you are upfront, you communicated and they accepted the risk. Personally I do not ask if they are poz or neg but I make them aware that by doing this, I could poz them.
If you are on the floor sucking cock, and you have no open sores in your mouth, the risk to them is so little that frankly, I do not disclose. You are suckin their dick, incredibly, HIGHLY unlikely that you will do them anyharm, so seriously .... have fun. Again I know the puritans on this sight may bash me for this but has there EVER been a case of a poz dude sucking a neg dude and making him poz???? Show me proof! Again, have fun, enjoy it.
Now, if a top sticks his raw cock up you, I just say, "I am poz and you can cum in me if you want" .... this works they either pull out and fill me up. The ones that pull out usually sorry, I cannot take that risk and I say, "I understand, no worries, be careful and have fun" Again, not always fun to say "I am poz" but you need to tell them of the risk the are taking.
It will get easier .... believe me.
I couldn't agree more.
I actually had some dumb shit top guy ask my status. I told him I was poz. He stuck around for a few minutes and then asked me, "Are you sure you're poz?" I started laughing, asked him why I would lie about being poz and then asked/told him to get the fuck out of my "room" He was just too stupid to fuck, plain and simple. :D (btw, I don't say he was a dumb shit because he asked my status, but because of the second question.)
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Milker,
yes, you've been bad.
you could have infected someone.
and you will when you continue like this.
Besides that I don't understand why you're making such a fuss (in another thread: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=11070.0 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=11070.0)) about a guy who hasn't mentioned he's poz and who might endanger others.
Start with yourself! I hate your crybaby behaviour. Should I really feel sorry for you? C'mon!
zeb
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Zeb,
Milker never asked anyone to feel sorry for him, he asked for help...
Pat
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Milker
Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your dilemma. I think there are many who for many reasons, would not have the courage to do so.
As we live in a time where more and more HIV are being prosecuted for their so called reckless behaviour, I thought that it was brave to post.
The expectation that we will always have to be sexually responsible is a heavy weight for any HIV person to carry for ever.
I think that there are many of us who have been through similar experiences, that share your concerns and feel empathy to you. Unfortunately, I think many of those voices will remain silent or quiet as they may be seen as irresponsible or even worse.
I wonder if the other sexual partners are having such dilemmas about their behaviour.
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Frenchpat,
Asking for help. He knows exactly what the problem is!
He is aware of the fact that he might have infected people with a deadly disease.
As long as we don't know the long term effects of the meds he might have taken life!
Asking for help is crybaby behaviour if you ask me. He should seek professional help and quit infecting others!
Did you see his other thread? I don't believe it.
This is how the virus spreads. Bi guys in these clubs bringing it home to their wifes and so on. Not too hard to imagine. Being poz carries a big responsebility! This responsebility reaches far. Some say hiv stops with me. Here it begins and spreads!
It makes me angry!
Zeb
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Zeb
I'm sure that Milker will appreciate your kind words.
Thank you for bringing the bi guy angle to the fore, it didn't occur to me as one of my immediate concerns.
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Zeb,
this is a support forum, not a court or a stoning ground.
To me this means that whenever I feel angry after reading a post, I try not to post immediately and also I try to understand what it is exactly that makes me angry in what I just read. In anything that makes me react strongly I believe there is something to be learnt.
After reading your answer I went to read all your posts, to learn more about you. And I think I can see why it is that Milker's actions have such effect on you, because of your own story. But Milker is not the guy who infected the woman who in turn infected you.
You, like me and most of those here who got the virus via their sexual activity, have a responsibility for what happened. Which in turn is the reason why we've probably all felt some amount of guilt afterwards. Guilt and anger. These we have to learn to deal with and redirecting them at others who post here is not supportive. And we all need support.
In participating here I think we have a responsibility to try to refrain from judging others when we post, and if we can not do that, to refrain from posting.
Writing this I have probably hijacked Milker's thread a bit and I apologize.
Pat
PS: as per how the virus can spread, there are many other ways, even if the sexual highway is the more predominant, all genders and practices included.
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I do agree with frenchpat about this not being a court or stoning ground. I don't see asking for help as crybaby behavior at all, yet I also wouldn't say I "feel sorry" for milker here. I don't think pity is expected, just advice on how to better handle a situation in the future. That said, I do wish to call milker's attention to zeb's point within the tirade: It's a bit of a conflict to relay this tale in this thread, yet express outrage in the other one that someone may not have added "poz" to their online profile. How you are "so angry" and "can't believe this is still happening". You can't completely claim the high road here, so you know...glass houses and all that...
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Asking for help is crybaby behaviour if you ask me.
He asked for advice in negotiating in a particular situation, as someone new to the disease. What he didn't ask for is Church Lady type moral judgments and sermonizing, which is what you are offering.
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He should seek professional help and quit infecting others!
Dude, that's quite a leap. The BB dude knew what he was getting into, and the rest was blowjobs. And how do you know this is ongoing? I think you should take your anger out of the equation. Anger spreads, too.
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Can I go out on a limb with Zeb's issue and state that, as I ascertain from frenchpat's posting research on Zeb that Zeb is a heterosexual male. What we're discussing here is highly relevant in terms of geographic and demographic context: gay men in a bath house. It's not what I would call "The Real World" and I hope that doesn't sound stupid... and it's certainly not meant as any sort of reverse elitism.
In a gay bath house you'll see a big bowl of condoms by the door, but like the bowl of Oreo cookies get a lot more use frankly. Personally, even though I was infected in the early 90's this singular fact is why I never developed a bath house habit even though I lived four blocks from one of the most popular bath houses in Manhattan. Sure, there were a few times I went but each time it was to entertain an out-of-town guest who was horny after a night of clubbing and was drunk, plus he was HIV negative so I knew he wasn't out infecting people. Frankly, there was several times where I sat in a corner and just watched the porn movie playing, as I was too drunk to maneuver myself around the corridors and deal with all the queens that were leering at me. But the times I decided to have sex and I had zero problems getting laid, and by the better looking ones there. Frankly bath houses seem overly populated with the unattractive, and I had much better experiences getting laid in a bar. Plus I'm just not that fetishized about group and/or public sex... though I've had numerous 3-ways they've all been in the confines of a more private space.
Anyway Zeb, I guess what I'm trying to say is that in a gay bathhouse there's a bit of an unspoken rule that if you are bare backing you, as a gay man, are accepting the fact that probably 50% or more of the individuals in the bath house are infected. I don't recall in the very few times I was there ANYONE asking or discussing their HIV status. So I'd be careful in comparing this situation to the wider world.
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Milker,
yes, you've been bad.
you could have infected someone.
and you will when you continue like this.
Besides that I don't understand why you're making such a fuss (in another thread: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=11070.0 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=11070.0)) about a guy who hasn't mentioned he's poz and who might endanger others.
Start with yourself! I hate your crybaby behaviour. Should I really feel sorry for you? C'mon!
zeb
I'm not looking for any excuse to my behavior. The other post is to me proof that what is going on in my mind those days is complete chaos, and so what? Dealing with hiv is new to me, I have major conflicting behavior about this, it's a mess, yup I agree. I'm sure it will settle down when I learn more from people that have been there before me, the answers from this post and the other help me get on track for that long journey with the disease.
Milker.
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sometimes it is a lonely journey to find such answers.
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HIV really does fuck with your life. It limits you and it narrows you. It erodes your self esteem and your ability to feel like a real, whole, viable person.
Anyone who says differently is talking out of his/her ass.
I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.
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Asking for help is crybaby behaviour if you ask me.
Isn't asking for help what these forums are based upon?
It's learning how to deal with HIV and AIDS. It's asking for help from those who have already gone through what one is experiencing for the first time.
It's learning from experience and the posts here about how to 'deal' with hiv in the real world.
Perhaps you might be here to just socialize, but many other people, including me, look to this forum as a venue to get the help I/we desperately need.
If it was readily available in my hometown, I wouldn't bother posting here.
Crybaby indeed.
Thankfully, I will never ask you for help.
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I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.
good for you. give it a few more months or years and then, please repost and see how you feel then.
I don't need you to feel sorry for me or anyone here. I can do that plenty enough myself.
I'm glad you don't experience MY reality and others here. Saying you feel sorry for us is quite belittling, as if 'we' did something wrong.
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I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.
You've been on meds only 6 months, yet you can really sum up the HIV experience? Impressive.
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I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.
You feel sorry for me?
Yet another compelling reason for the creation of a forum for those of us who actually have a physically and socially debilitating disease.
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I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.
Matty the Damned has found that HIV is a great leveller. Sure, it's easy for you now. Cheeful visits to a bright and smiley doctor. Some tests and a handful of pills. It's just like one of those irritating and unnecessarily chipper animated advertisements at the top of pages here.
Because we're all living for our grand-babies.
But there will come a time when HIV will assert control over you. Matty the Damned wagers that you'll find yourself turning to "certain groups of people" then.
Regards,
MtD
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The more I re-read that guy's post the more disgusted I become.
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What do u mean Philly?
Edited to add: forget it my meds have made me stupid, I should read clearer and go to bed.
Drew
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Zeb, you're entitled to have whatever feelings come up for you during discussions here. And you can say what they are if you want to.
BUT, but you are NOT entitled to call someone names like "cry baby." So lay off of that kind of stuff.
Thanks for your cooperation.
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GAMark, you're pretty new to this site. It can take a while to get accustomed to how things work here, especially when a highly-charged discussion like this one is going on.
Using a term like "I feel sorry for you" comes across as condescending rather than compassionate.
You're welcome to express your thoughts and feelings here in a discussion and to disagree with what someone else has said. But we ask you to be mindful of how you express yourself.
Thanks for your cooperation.
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its like everything else. If you do anything to excess it will fuck you up. I guarantee it. Some humans dont have this problem, other dumb fuckers take years to figure out that moderation is the key to happiness and success.(me).
This whole argument about how those in gay bathhouses know what they are risking and rubbers wont be used even though provided is just another argument for teaching abstinence no matter its failure rate to date. Note to exclusively gay people, it isnt any fucking fun using rubbers in heterosexual sex either.
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I disagree with you on that. I have not really found a change in my life other than the meds and constant doc visits. I have not allowed HIV to controll me, I do what I can to controll it. I have not limited myself to any certain group of people due to my status, and if you have or do then I really fell sorry for you.
Matty the Damned has found that HIV is a great leveller. Sure, it's easy for you now. Cheeful visits to a bright and smiley doctor. Some tests and a handful of pills. It's just like one of those irritating and unnecessarily chipper animated advertisements at the top of pages here.
Because we're all living for our grand-babies.
But there will come a time when HIV will assert control over you. Matty the Damned wagers that you'll find yourself turning to "certain groups of people" then.
Regards,
MtD
Truer words were never spoken! And this guy keeps those in mind each and every day. Im lucky....FOR NOW.
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Jack,
"This whole argument about how those in gay bathhouses know what they are risking and rubbers wont be used even though provided is just another argument for teaching abstinence no matter its failure rate to date"
That is bullshit Jack and you know it! Just how many of your heterosexual friends are capable of abstaining in situations just like this one. I can remember the bathhouses from the mid 80's, and all the STRAIGHT men and women who went to them. Hell, Jack, you are perfectly aware that human nature is human nature, no matter who the person is. There are several very conservative leaders in this country who have been caught with their pants down around their ankles, so please don't tell me that abstinence works. What a ball of crap. Hell, it didn't work for you and it surely didn't work for me, so lets get real and come up with a prevention message that will work, in spite of what the Southern Baptist Convention might advocate.
I feel that the perfect prevention message would possibly be one of "self respect", taught from kindergarten up through and including college. Shit, this country is so chock full of people that are running around with guilt and self loathing of all kinds that there is little doubt for the reason for the spread of this and several other diseases.
In the core, this is exactly what this thread is all about. Learning how to respect ourselves and to take pride in our lives and our accomplishments. Being in control of our feelings and our lives. Being there for ourselves first and being aware of our impact on the society as a whole. If we all seek and accomplish good and balanced lives, there is every expectation that we will make the right choices for us and make a difference in the spread of this disease. Outside of that, one can pontificate about the past until the cows come home, but in the meantime, nothing constructive can come about until we start living in the present.
Thanks for letting me spew, Jack.
I trust your golf game is doing well, and that you have finally found someone to play a few holes with from time to time.
Love,
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its like everything else. If you do anything to excess it will fuck you up. I guarantee it. Some humans dont have this problem, other dumb fuckers take years to figure out that moderation is the key to happiness and success.(me).
This whole argument about how those in gay bathhouses know what they are risking and rubbers wont be used even though provided is just another argument for teaching abstinence no matter its failure rate to date. Note to exclusively gay people, it isnt any fucking fun using rubbers in heterosexual sex either.
Jack makes a point: Heterosexuals have had to consider condoms for ages because of pregnancy concerns. It didn't become a serious issue for gay people until this shit hit the fan. I think the reason homosexuals are so often resistent to condoms has so much more to do with the psychological and emotional intimacy of it than just the fact that it doesn't feel as good. It stems from the stigmatization of homosexuality and the attempt to keep people forced into the closet and remain isolated and unseen. That's something heterosexual people just don't have to confront as much on a daily basis at every step of their lives. That point of sexual connection can be a validation of sort, a time of feeling very much real, here, alive. I think many in the homosexual community (and I can state this of myself, for sure) couldn't stand the thought of having a barrier put up there...even there.
PS- To Moffie: I think Jack was saying that this type of discussion about condoms not being used serves as fodder for that abstinance message, despite the fact that that argument doesn't work. I don't think he was saying that it is a reason why abstinance should be the message, just that people who preach abstinence dredge up commentary like this to prop their arguments on.
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Moffie, I dont disagree with you. I agree with little the Southern Baptist and other right wing Christian types preach. My point is very simple,you have no chance of getting hiv if you dont have sex. Its not for everyone and I dont think anyone should be forced to do it, but that doesnt mean the option shouldnt be presented to everyone. Everyone is different. I am an addict. Of everything. To quit drinking I avoided all my old Friends who i drank with and bars, and God knows, I love bars. I can tell you I am much happier as a person who avoids alcohol and my old Friends, then I was when I was the life of the party. I am also much happier today as a person who doesnt have sex,even though I think about it hourly,than I was when I was having sex daily with anything that had two legs.
Twenty years ago I would have preferred death to life without sex or alcohol, but I have learned how to live without them and I my life is better for it. Its not for everyone.
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Tim,
" That point of sexual connection can be a validation of sort, a time of feeling very much real, here, alive."
What an astounding statement this is.....!
Wow, Tim. I think you hit on something here that brings up so many more possibilities. I can remember the pee parties, back rooms, sex clubs and bath houses of the 70's and 80's, and most of all I can remember the feelings of safety and comraderie from being in a room/environment of like minded and "EQUAL" men. Your post reminded me of the feelings of closeness that we feel when we are having sex with a man and that feeling of intamate "joining" up of bodies, minds and spirits. This really doesn't happen the same with rubber in the room. (unless of course you are in a "latex" party)
I don't know where you were going with your post, but be sure, you did bring a flood of memories of this feeling with your post and to not recognize the utter "aloneness" that we have to confront on a daily basis in this society, and the constant state of being on the "Outside" of "acceptible" norms; sends us a message that draws us to each other and sexual venues tend to become a no-holds-barred event that encourage us to abandon all those outside messages and just be close and loving to each other.
Wow, you really brought up a good one here, and I would love to see what others might think about your points.
Jack. I do understand your point, but at the same time, I still think that my point holds more hope for those who really need to hear a message that will be self preserving, instead of self destructive. As you can see, Gay society is a tad bit more complex than it might seem on the surface since most of us have been up against the "STRAIGHT" wall for most of our adult lives. (In everything we do and say)
Love,
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I'm sorry, there's just a lot of bullshit in a bunch of these posts. I'd say by and large homosexuals DO use condoms otherwise you'd see HIV infection rates MUCH MUCH higher than they already are. It's a certain distinct minority in the gay community that seemed determined to bareback for whatever reason the ascribe to, and yes indeed it's very prevalent in a loose environment that one finds in a bathhouse. That said, any stroll in The Ramble of Central Park and you will see a lot of cum filled rubbers floating in the fish pond, so they do get used even there.
And I'm sorry, but the fact is simply that HIV isn't that extreme in the heterosexual community in the US. I don't think it's because heterosexuals are more proficient with opening condom packaging, because I know for a fact they're actually much, much worse about it. The large majority of heterosexual sexually active individuals fuck raw all the time and depend on the pill or other non-condom manners to avoid pregnancy, which is their $1 concern, not HIV.
I can invent all sorts of reasons that I didn't use a condom and got infected because society hates me, etc. and while partially true I knew that I should be using a condom, even back in the late 80's which I feel gives me a slighter greater "out" (if I do indeed intellectually need one) because it was before the advent of HIV education campaigns. That said, I wasn't a moron and I new what the methods of transmissions were.
I fucked up, it was my fault. I didn't, nor does anyone else, need abstinence to avoid my fate. They need to use a condom -- it's so horribly simple as to be laughable.
ps: I'm not meaning to negate the concrete fact that homosexuality does indeed mean you are an "outsider" -- of course it does, though it is noticeably less so now than when I was growing up. I still think it's an easy out to think that's why so many don't use condoms... I'm sure it's sometimes the case, but in most instances guys are either selfish, or just plain lazy. I personally was just plain lazy, though I will say I was using condoms at least 75% of the time so I was still surprised when I was infected.
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My late husband once had sex with 72 people on a three day weekend. AMazing what someone will confess with a high fever. I still love him and forgave him. Sex doesn't make a person bad. Cruelty makes a person bad.
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My late husband once had sex with 72 people on a three day weekend. AMazing what someone will confess with a high fever. I still love him and forgave him. Sex doesn't make a person bad. Cruelty makes a person bad.
72? Wow, was this before or during your marriage? Sorry to bud in, but that is a little to much. I think once you go in the double digits in a weekend, it can get a little messy.
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Seventy-two people?!? It's like that Asian guy who ate 53 Nathan's hot dogs in 12 minutes, repulsive yet impressive.
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Zeb, you're entitled to have whatever feelings come up for you during discussions here. And you can say what they are if you want to.
BUT, but you are NOT entitled to call someone names like "cry baby." So lay off of that kind of stuff.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Milker, Andy,
I apologize, I got carried away by emotions. I'm really sorry for my vocabulary.
Zeb
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Oh please... a bag of meth and free reign at the West Side Club and I could easily exceed 72.
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wow. Seriously. Go Meth.
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METH KILLS!
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Moffie,
I think you got exactly where I was going with my post above. And to philly: no, I am not trying to broadly excuse all lack of condom use this way. At its simplest....yes, I was lazy and it felt better to go without. Now, I am here chatting endlessly with you good folks. Burned and learned. But I stand by what I said above- it's an emotional and psychological factor that I very much believe in...if for no other reason than I was aware of it in myself prior to diagnosis. I was somewhat aware of it prior to even venturing into the adult world of sexuality. It's something that came upon my mind back in the mid 80's while I was still in middle school or early high school. The notion of barriers...social, psychological, emotional...and now physical. Insult, meet injury.
People can be free to disagree with my assessment about that factoring in, but I stand by my post.
Hunter
(who is opting for Hunter in threads featuring multiple Tims, which may happen a great deal more in days to come!)
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This thread is not about if you
suck 1 dick you get H
suck 2 dicks you get I
suck 3 dicks you get V
it is about MANAGEMENT of our sexuality, therefore about our LIFE, created in all simplicity and honesty by the author, hoping that against such background OPEN and MATURE discussion can take place. If along the way, it had provoked sentiments deep down due to compromised IDENTITY, INTEGRITY, DIGNITY because of child abuse, sexual abuse ...........................
KINDLY start your own thread. So, you do not have to feel like you are the avenging ANGEL OF GOD, and exhale your righteous flames of ANGER because we dared to suck dicks or hang our legs in the air, and enjoyed it.
BEFORE your fingers get happy on the keyboard, LOOK yourself in the mirror and ask
where is written COMPASSION
where is written UNDERSTANDING
where is written LOVE
Otherwise, there is a risk you might be awarded T O for your efforts. And i think it is not the intention of the author.
Siang
PS : we are not crybabies desperately seeking attention, we are irredeemable sluts who know what we want up our legs and in our mouths :D :D
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My point is very simple,you have no chance of getting hiv if you dont have sex.
Good morning Sir, glad you are awake, in your coma , we regret to inform you that it had been found that there are millions that are infected with the HIV thru' contaminated blood.
There is a great lady member here who when treating her patient had the needle fallen into her body, she was infected that way ( you know who you are, i just want to say HI )
IF YOU NEED HELP to be brought up to date with actuality, we standing by to help !!
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What does a deity have to do with abstinence? I see more logic in an orgasm bringing you closer to some kind of (G)god.
Abstinence is for crotchless, plastic pods. We have these bodies, desires and gooey stuff. It makes more sense to learn to drive sex safely, than to never travel anywhere and to drive in drunken endangerment...
I wish I had the education I have received now that I am positive BEFORE I chose to do it unsafely. Why can't we educate people instead of dismembering their humanity? Why can't we give them A CHOICE with their bodies than to take them away in some state sponsored, fascist assholism?
BTW- I've been bad... there is not such thing as bad or evil, only inaction or action and consequence. You sleep in the bed you make for yourself (unless some fucker messes it up)...
Drew
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How often anyone would come across HiV- guy who likes to do a bareback with a stranger in a sex club !!!!
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How often anyone would come across HiV- guy who likes to do a bareback with a stranger in a sex club !!!!
I was one of those HIV negative guys.
Once.
MtD
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I was one of those HIV negative guys.
Once.
MtD
i second that notion....i was drugged up at the time but i was negative and guess i got some thrill (while high) to take risks that i wouldnt take sober....it was "how can i outdo myself tonight"...its really a vicious cycle and i didnt stop until i became positive but hey someone else might "wake up and smell the coffee" and come out lucky before they stop.....
but i also see the point of being difficult to disclose at risk of not getting any (i probably wouldnt do it but i still understand the temptation and who knows it could happen to any of us...especially guys who tend to be weaker in resisting sexual things)
-josh
(who hasnt known hes positive all that long and doesnt know what the future holds for his sex life)
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What does a deity have to do with abstinence? I see more logic in an orgasm bringing you closer to some kind of (G)god.
Abstinence is for crotchless, plastic pods. We have these bodies, desires and gooey stuff. It makes more sense to learn to drive sex safely, than to never travel anywhere and to drive in drunken endangerment...
I wish I had the education I have received now that I am positive BEFORE I chose to do it unsafely. Why can't we educate people instead of dismembering their humanity? Why can't we give them A CHOICE with their bodies than to take them away in some state sponsored, fascist assholism?
My philosophy idealzes carnality, but I'm in no way Judeo/Xtian.
But since we live in a world where morality is considered how close we adhere to the tenets of the jealous, vengeful Old Testament Jehovah, any discussion of sex and public policy will inevitably be bogged down with such claptrap.
We cannot discuss sex openly as a society without resorting to the buzzkill of morality unless/until we jettison such superstitious garbage.
Brent
(Who refrains from using the word "G" god)
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Speaking as someone who is Christian, figuring a way to combine both my strong sex drive that enjoys the excitement of casual encounters in various establishments and trying to maintain what I think is a strong moral compass is a difficult struggle for me. More often than not I fail to combine them in a way that satisfies what I desire.
I agree perhaps not in the same language as Brent, but in what I perceive is his overall message. It is virtually impossible to have a serious discussion of sex and public policy when right wing evangelical wackos insist upon imposing their religious arguments to set that policy.
Woods
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Wow? 20 in one day? man were you a busy ... busy sucker... have youve tried going to suck-a-holics? lol I've not been with that many not even half my whole life...but, my ex who brought this Great gift of a virus... could be a running canidate for your record... I just hope you've not complicated your health with more inflictions than you were exposed too... before your episode... I like Quality myself instead of quantity...
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Sounds like a serious sex addiction to me...but hey
Everybody's addicted to something right?
Might wanna talk to somebody about that..............
And by the way ...even if everybody's doing it....if its wrong....its still WRONG
My two cents worth
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It's funny that the headline or subject line of this thread according to the author is that he has been bad - but any statements relating to that notion by other posters are considered offensive and to be soapboxing by the politically correct indignant (who in mind are very close cousins to the Christian right in mannerisms)
Frankly I disagree with the term of bad.
I also disagree that you (milker) have a responsibility for any one else in this situation - particularly in the context that you described - it is not the sole responsibility of the poz population to protect the neg population. If a guy is neg and decided to forgo his responsibility than that is his choice - not yours...I'm rather tired of neg people whining that we need to protect them as if they are without ability or beyond responsibility
More importantly is that you seem by your original post to be feeling bad...and that is something that only you can address.
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Milker~
First off I eagerly bend over in the dark for your courage and honesty ;)
I do not think you have been bad in any way. I think this is a real sticky subject for some who can't look past some of the not so delicate reality's of this life. I have never been into that scene (bath house) but I can relate because Tina was a Bitch I use to know so I had my own issue's.
My ex infected me. He did not disclose his status until a month into the relationship. I stayed with him for four years though. I take it on myself also that I did not protect my health also by insisting on protection. I had been in a relationship with an hiv positive guy before so that did not bother me. Even though I have not yet had to worry about how I should disclose with anyone since my diagnosis it is something I worry about. I have done the abstinence thing only because I needed the time to sort it all out for myself on what I felt was appropriate for me and how I would like the world to be. We are all different and yet the same. As for an answer I can't help much. I wish that there were glow in the dark wristbands that would indicate status for the baths. I feel it would relieve pressure on anxiety about disclosing in a situation such as that when your mouth could be full and people might not be completely themselves. Anyway just a thought. It doesn't help much but I feel I needed to add my support for your topic.
Bryan
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I wonder if this will be put in a book. It is an interesting read.
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I wish that there were glow in the dark wristbands that would indicate status for the baths. I feel it would relieve pressure on anxiety about disclosing in a situation such as that when your mouth could be full and people might not be completely themselves.
Wow, that sounds like a good idea! Admittedly, I don't know the first thing about "the baths", other than what I've read or heard from friends. No first hand knowledge here.
I'm curious though, what do those "in the know" think about this idea? Is it workable? Would people use them?
Oh, and welcome to the forums, Holden!
Ann
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Wow, that sounds like a good idea! Admittedly, I don't know the first thing about "the baths", other than what I've read or heard from friends. No first hand knowledge here.
I'm curious though, what do those "in the know" think about this idea? Is it workable? Would people use them?
Oh, and welcome to the forums, Holden!
Ann
Sounds like an absolutely awful idea to me. What's next Tattoos? The people that DO NOT KNOW their status are the dangerous ones, and they would likely be wearing the "neg" wristband. And a poz person that is nervous about disclosing certainly isn't going to wear a glow in the dark band to make them stand out.
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The people that DO NOT KNOW their status are the dangerous ones, and they would likely be wearing the "neg" wristband.
Hi Poz,
You're absolutely right - I guess I had a momentary lapse of reason. I'll go stand in the corner now. Thanks for putting me right - and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I'm kinda surprised at myself for not thinking the idea through a little more carefully before I posted. Ooops! :(
Ann
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Ann,
don't beat yourself up though... guess you just forgot about the fear factor ;)
Pat
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Pat,
I don't know what I was thinking. I guess I'm just a little too eager for an easy answer, when there isn't one.
Ann
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Well THAT would be one idea that would work perfectly for me to NOT got in those places anymore! Being from a family that had to wear those little things to "show" who they were, I got a sudden heart pumping excitement there..
I'm afraid that we have to teach people (like me) how to speak up when the occasion "rises"; not only it will help us in those particular situations, but also with getting more confident with disclosing to other people that we see in the regular life, friends, future friends, bosses, family members, who knows...
In any case thanks for your post, Holden, and i'm glad you got rid of the Bitch :)
Milker.
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The glow in the dark wrist band is a great idea, yet as enforceable as our state's disclosure law.
I thought the biohazard tattoo was a good idea, until I went into a tattoo salon. There where 4 guys, I guessed to be in the late teens to early 20's that where all there to get the biohazard tattoo. It wasn't long before I learned they where getting it because they saw someone at the mall with one on his neck and thought it was " just cool, we didn't know..."