POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: fondeveau on February 11, 2007, 07:53:36 am
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ONA is "shorthand" for Open and Affirming, the designation for congregations, campus ministries, and other bodies in the United Church of Christ which make public statements of welcome into their full life and ministry to persons of all sexual orientations and gender identities.
Each week 100 million Americans attend religious services whether Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. How about you?
http://www.ucccoalition.org/
http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/
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Thank God I'm an atheist. 8)
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Or possibly a Unitarian Universalist...in which case, we could thank the deity of your choosing or not.
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I was just being flip...actually, I'm a "born again atheist." It does me no good to discuss a God I don't believe exists...kinda like believing bald is a hair color.
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If 100 million are off to church today, then I'm one of the 200 million that isn't.
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Gee whiz guys - the response is nice, but that's two nevers without a vote on the poll!
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oops. voted.
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I voted just didn't post. ;)
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I never go to church. All those fake people make me sick.
Dan J.
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As a teen I was coerced by my Aunt Emma (whose home I'd spent the night in) to attend a service at one of the ritzier Episcopalian churches in the city.
I was the first person sitting in the front left pew. After the sermon the priest walked up to me, took my hands, and said "May god be with you." I had no idea what to respond so I said "Thanks." If I'd been on my toes I would have asked "What god?" but that probably would have ticked off my aunt.
That was my first and only attendance at a regular church service. I've unfortunately been to too many funerals in churches and synagogues since that time but luckily no one has thrown me a trick question again.
Boo
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God is mans imaginary friend!
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I really began to doubt supernatural explanations of things when i was 12 or 13. Oddly, although I had my share of getting called faggot and getting hit in school, most of my torture came in Saturday church school. There was a real group of creeps there that used to pummel me regularly. I guess the message of Christ wasn't getting through. I do sometimes end up in a funeral mass - but it has to be a really close relative - otherwise I go to the wake. I really like Roman Catholic rituals and the vast wealth of art and architecture it has produced (Notre Dame de Paris, the Vatican). I voted. Pax tecum.
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Voted; was tallied. Started attending Episcopalian services about a year ago. I left the Roman Catholic church in my late teens because of the hypocrisy and fake people. I also have a dislike for fake, hypocritical people. However, they exist in just about every social strata and most organizations out there. Well, that's been my assessment.
For the most part I am enjoying church-going again. I believe in a GOD............I also believe in a whole bunch of other entities the aren't promoted or perpetuated by western Christian religions. Yeah, I believe I have the right to question, inquire, expand....whatever it takes to grow as a loving human being. The jury is still out whether I will accept/fit in organized religious rites again. Human mortality: a cosmic joke or not, it's mine to enjoy and explore for a time. :o
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LMAO....If I stepped foot in a church, it would prolly crumble. I am an eclectic solitary Pagan, how do you like that for a title? I never did appreciate having to go to Sunday School as a child and would get pissed listening to folks gossip about Suzie Q when they are suppose to be listening to the sermon. Also how come ministers seem to be the biggest whores of the church? Just wondering...
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4 Lutheran pasters in the family - what do you think? ;D
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"To you, I'm an atheist... to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition."
-Woody Allen
I have no use for religions, spirituality, or hocus-pocus of any sort.
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The Bedsprings Babtist Church is just down the road from my house. The pastor likes to "do it" with the wives of his "flock".
I always wanted to sneak in a pee in the Babtismal water tub. LOL
Dan J.
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When I was in high school... outside this Baptist church was a marquee on which they wrote, "God created man for his pleasure. Are you pleasing God?"
I would drive my friends out of the way going to school so they could read it.
And laugh.
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I'm Jewish.
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My most spiritual examination as a kid was studying the LP cover of the Broadway version of My Fair Lady (this was in the early 60s...). There was a Herschfeld caricature of G.B. Shaw up in the clouds using puppet strings to control Rex Harrison who was controlling Julie Andrews.
(http://www.sweetoldbob.com/images/myfairlady.jpg)
My Fair Lady is one of the few musicals I ever liked so I would listen to the album and examine the cover. I probably started listening to it before learning to read.
Boo
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BOO-
I HAVE THAT!!! It's one of my favourites!
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Are you gay? :P
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Hmmm...last time I was in a church was March of last year when Rodney was in the hospital, just stopped in to say a prayer. :)
I am not religious, but I do believe in my own way and that's good enough for me.
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" I'm a scientist... we don't believe in anything." (Paul from "the Lost Skeleton of Cadavra", and if you haven't seen it you really should turn in your queer card.)
Seriously, I don't go to church, but I am a certified agnostic. I just can't find it within myself to be certain about something that you can't be sure of.... and I find people who are convinced they are right on this issue to be downright dangerous... and that's on both sides of the debate. OK next topic.
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Hmmm...last time I was in a church was March of last year when Rodney was in the hospital, just stopped in to say a prayer. :)
I am not religious, but I do believe in my own way and that's good enough for me.
Attagirl Nadine!
Are you gay? :P
I am a gay man trapped in a woman's body.
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Attagirl Nadine!
I am a gay man trapped in a woman's body.
We all are dear, we all are...
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darn toot'n
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We all are dear, we all are...
I always tell people I'm something of a confused lesbian going through a bit of a
"phase" stuck in a man's body.
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... I am a certified agnostic. I just can't find it within myself to be certain about something that you can't be sure of.... and I find people who are convinced they are right on this issue to be downright dangerous... and that's on both sides of the debate. OK next topic.
That is a rather broad brush labeling certified theists and atheists as "dangerous," dontcha think? I've been an atheist since adolescence but what someone else believes is her/his own business. As long as you don't try to convert me I will reciprocate fully.
As an atheist I have some issues of concern about U.S. society and how many major religions (or minor ones, for that matter) attempt to alter U.S. law based on religious doctrines inimical to major segments of society, like GLBTs, Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. The U.S.A. was not founded as a Christian government even though most Americans were (are) Christians. Several major religions have long been a bane to GLBTs and still perpetuate the idea homosexuals/XXXXsexuals are mentally ill as well as pedophiles. As a gay atheist I am concerned about continued influence by these forces. As an agnostic you should be able to understand atheists prefer a more secular government, not less.
Sorry to hijack the thread but with a mind and memory span like mine it's miraculous I can finish a
Boo
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Oh yeah...I forgot, during Lent me & Hubby hit up the Catholic churches on Fridays for their fish dinners...does that count? :D
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That is a rather broad brush labeling certified theists and atheists as "dangerous," dontcha think? I've been an atheist since adolescence but what someone else believes is her/his own business. As long as you don't try to convert me I will reciprocate fully.
Boo
Sorry, Boo, but your emotional reaction basically proves my point. You think there is no God. Fine. Prove it.
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" I'm a scientist... we don't believe in anything." (Paul from "the Lost Skeleton of Cadavra", and if you haven't seen it you really should turn in your queer card.)
Seriously, I don't go to church, but I am a certified agnostic. I just can't find it within myself to be certain about something that you can't be sure of.... and I find people who are convinced they are right on this issue to be downright dangerous... and that's on both sides of the debate. OK next topic.
"You should never, ever doubt what no one is sure about."
Why does certainty on this issue equal danger but certainty in other issues not? I've heard quite a number of my agnostic friends say this... and I'm not exactly sure why a feeling of certainty in religious matters is dangerous.
As an athEIst, I'm not interested at all in making others the same... it's not a proselytizing creed.
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Sorry, Boo, but your emotional reaction basically proves my point. You think there is no God. Fine. Prove it.
Emotional reaction by asking that all people's beliefs be considered, not just yours?
If you can't or don't want to civilly argue that's fine but please don't dismiss someone's reaction as "emotional" and imply your beliefs are right and mine are wrong. That sort of thinking is dangerous.
I have no more onus to prove there is no god any more than a theist has to prove there is. It's based on belief.
You're the most prejudiced agnostic I've ever encountered.
Boo
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I believe in the separation of Church and State.
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I believe in the separation of Church and State.
Me too.
I've always thought that if religious types want their church to have a say in the workings of the government, it's only fair for the government to have a say in the workings of their church.
For some reason, they're not too keen on that.
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I said, NEVER, but I will begrudginly attend a church service for funerals.
If people want to believe in something they can't prove, then so be it. But, I really can't understand why people fall for it.
Anyways, I've already been blessed or condemned. Never quite sure, which it is, but every year at Orthodox Easter, the Greek orthodox Church on the corner of my street, conducts the 'stations of the cross' down my street and round the block back to the church.
First year I moved in, I'd been out all night partying, and sleeping the next day. This little ritual was unbeknownst to me at the time, and I remember waking to the smell of incense and loud Greek or Latin gibberish. I got out of bed, dressed only in my pj shorts, and went to the balcony to see what all the fuss was about. Low and behold, there was the priest in all his garb, holding a shiny gold and silver cross, with about 400 odd worshipers, looking up at me and praying. As I was newly diagnosed at the time, I thought, WOW, word sure does get out quickly in this neighbourhood. ;D
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I saw a doco on Madalyn Murray O'Hare jsut last week.
She was one hell of a woman. (pardon the pun)
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People will then often say, ' But surely it's better to remain an Agnostic just in case? ' This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. ( If it turns out that I've been wrong all along, and there is in fact a God, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)
~Douglas Adams
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."
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And where did Madalyn Murray O'Hare end up? In a shollow grave I do believe. I know her beliefs didn't have anything to do with her death, just the greed. Do you think she uttered OH GOD HELP ME?
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I love topics like this. It's like a marker for retards who beLIEve in the great lie. Helps me avoid the idiots.
Thanks for posting.
kthanxbye
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As everyone has seen in the past couple of months there are a few things that should be prohibited from the forums.
Politics and Religion both are like mixing oil and water, eventually they will seperate.
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You are right Rapido.
I had never heard of her before. I'd always assumed that because of the separation of State and Church in the US, that pray in government schools etc would always have been on the outer.
I had no idea of her existence, and her fight to separate the two, and that it was all so recent.
Australians are a much more secular/snon-believing lot compared to the US. I just checked our national weekly church attendance figures. It is estimated at 1.5 million out of 20 million population. That is, a weekly church attendance rate of about 7.5% in Aus, compared to 33% in the US (if the 100 million figure is correct)
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[quote author=Boo Radley link=topic=8828.msg107667#
If you can't or don't want to civilly argue that's fine but please don't dismiss someone's reaction as "emotional" and imply your beliefs are right and mine are wrong. That sort of thinking is dangerous.
I have no more onus to prove there is no god any more than a theist has to prove there is. It's based on belief.
You're the most prejudiced agnostic I've ever encountered.
Boo
[/quote]
You're right that it's based on belief, which makes it oh so easy to believe with absolute certainty that you are correct. It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness... they start off spouting things like "you're the most prejudiced ... blah blah blah... and end up with a gun in their hand just to make their point. Sorry, boo, but people who feel no need to examine their beliefs scare me.
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Boo, don't fall for the flamebate.
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(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/marsaudiacsolo/compromise.jpg)
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puck,
Your bizarre associations and sweeping declarations remind me of a schizophrenic during a psychotic break.
It's "well known" anyone who holds a belief is self-righteous. Right. So you're self-righteous as much as anyone else, unless you have no beliefs. You're so omniscient you know I'm the kind of person to take up a gun to "make" my point, my beliefs have not been examined before coming to them, I just plucked them from thin air, and my kind of thinking scares you. Your belief, sitting on the fence, is obviously the only correct one. Your thinking, black or white, is correct.
You scare me.
Are you hiding an anencephalic cranium under that hat? Ha ha!! Funny joke!
Boo
P.S. Thanks, Rod. I tried with limited success.
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Oy vey.
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puck,
Your bizarre associations and sweeping declarations remind me of a schizophrenic during a psychotic break.
It's "well known" anyone who holds a belief is self-righteous. Right. So you're self-righteous as much as anyone else, unless you have no beliefs. You're so omniscient you know I'm the kind of person to take up a gun to "make" my point, my beliefs have not been examined before coming to them, I just plucked them from thin air, and my kind of thinking scares you. Your belief, sitting on the fence, is obviously the only correct one. Your thinking, black or white, is correct.
You scare me.
Are you hiding an anencephalic cranium under that hat? Ha ha!! Funny joke!
Boo
P.S. Thanks, Rod. I tried with limited success.
Boo... you're still attacking me. I haven't attacked you. And I'm not going to. I am just making a point that people who hold their beliefs with absolute certainty are more likely to react violently when challenged. Thanks for proving my point.
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Now boys, be nice. The pope loves you.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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If however, you choose to be evil, this pope will strip the flesh from your bones.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I voted never earlier today.
As a kid growing up, my mother had all of us kids going to church every Sunday. (methodist... no we did not do meth), I also sang in three church choirs, from the time I was 7 until I was 16 years old. During the summer months, it was Baptist bible study, one day a week. :-\
I never looked back at church being a bad experience, but it is no longer a part of my life. Gave it all up, back in 1972. What is it? Did God create man, or did man create god.
Ray
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I never go to church. All those fake people make me sick.
Dan J.
Haha, there is always room for one more! Seriously, kidding you here, Dan.
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As a teen I was coerced by my Aunt Emma (whose home I'd spent the night in) to attend a service at one of the ritzier Episcopalian churches in the city.
I was the first person sitting in the front left pew. After the sermon the priest walked up to me, took my hands, and said "May god be with you." I had no idea what to respond so I said "Thanks." If I'd been on my toes I would have asked "What god?" but that probably would have ticked off my aunt.
That was my first and only attendance at a regular church service. I've unfortunately been to too many funerals in churches and synagogues since that time but luckily no one has thrown me a trick question again.
Boo
So the trick question was to determine that you were unchurched by your failure to respond, "and, also, with you?"
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This man (wearing a fabulous vintage chiffon-lined Dior gold lamé gown over a silk Vera Wang empire waist tulle cocktail dress, accessorized with a 3-foot beaded peaked House of Whoville hat, and the ruby slippers Judy Garland wore in the Wizard of Oz) is worried that The Da Vinci Code might make the Roman Catholic Church look foolish.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I always wanted to write the Pope a letter.
Dear Pope,
I like your hat. Can I have it?
Love and kisses,
Benj
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Gee, whiz! I really just meant the topic to discuss spirituality in very general terms. After all, priest is one of the traditional gay occupations following florist, hairstylist, etc...and of course, this crosses into Protestantism these days with Mr. Haggard and others. I think I read somewhere that many Indian tribes believe that gay people are highly spiritual? Anywho, interesting experiences across the board.
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I always wanted to write the Pope a letter.
Dear Pope,
I like your hat. Can I have it?
Love and kisses,
Benj
I recall living in the Mission District of San Francisco in the mid-eighties when PJII came to visit. Thousands of homos turned out to protest including the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. We wore paper miters and waived signs that said things like, "The Pope may not like me, but Jesus loves me!"
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I never looked back at church being a bad experience, but it is no longer a part of my life. Gave it all up, back in 1972. What is it? Did God create man, or did man create god.
Ray
God made you in his image.
You are gay.
Therefore, God is gay.
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4 Lutheran pasters in the family - what do you think? ;D
That you HAVE suffered enough?
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Oh yeah...I forgot, during Lent me & Hubby hit up the Catholic churches on Fridays for their fish dinners...does that count? :D
Wherever two or three are gathered in his name...including at a fish dinner...
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Me too.
I've always thought that if religious types want their church to have a say in the workings of the government, it's only fair for the government to have a say in the workings of their church.
For some reason, they're not too keen on that.
Thats why I like the UCC - we aren't worried about prayer in school, but are concerned with justice, equality, helping the poor, promoting peace - goals which are compatible with good government without creating excessive entanglements between Church and State.
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Oy vey.
Gosh! You are Jewish!
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Let's go further:
God made you in his image.
You are HIV+.
God is HIV+.
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Let's go further:
God made you in his image.
You are HIV+.
God is HIV+.
Is HIV+ a part of my being or just a condition?
I would say the latter.
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That you HAVE suffered enough?
No, I still beleive in all that silly stuff. ;)
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Whatever the human condition is God.
You're in my heart, you're in my soul
You'll be my breath should I grow old
You are my lover, you're my best friend
You're in my soul.
I suppose it could be sung to God, your lover, or your virus.
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No, I still beleive in all that silly stuff. ;)
I wanna go to church with you sometime, stud. ;D
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Whatever the human condition is God.
You're in my heart, you're in my soul
You'll be my breath should I grow old
You are my lover, you're my best friend
You're in my soul.
I suppose it could be sung to God, your lover, or your virus.
It is my very good fortune to not believe in the existence of the soul then.
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I'm glad you believe in you.
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I'm glad you believe in you.
I do veer dangerously close to solipsism sometimes.
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I believe in Jan.
There is only one true Jan.
(http://www.usareligiousnews.com/newsImages/Jan%20Crouch%20Picture%20SMALL.jpg)
now shut up and send me your grocery money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S2kKbRIwLo
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Gosh! You are Jewish!
Hahahaha that I am!
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I believe in Jan.
There is only one true Jan.
(http://www.usareligiousnews.com/newsImages/Jan%20Crouch%20Picture%20SMALL.jpg)
now shut up and send me your grocery money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S2kKbRIwLo
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Isn't her husband gay or something?
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Bottom line is we choose to believe whatever we want to believe, just because it may not be the same choice as our own, the choice should be respected. I would say more but don't want to be crucified for my simple beliefs....*hey, hey, put that torch away, there will be no burning at the stake in the 12 Oaks, tonight darlin*
(who often pokes fun at her own beliefs :D)
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Is HIV+ a part of my being or just a condition?
I would say the latter.
Hehe, so now let's debate about whether being gay is a condition or part of your being.
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A new religion - Aupointillimitism...
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Boo... you're still attacking me. I haven't attacked you. And I'm not going to. I am just making a point that people who hold their beliefs with absolute certainty are more likely to react violently when challenged. Thanks for proving my point.
Repeating "you've proved my point" endlessly proves nothing. Your point that people with strongly held beliefs "are more likely to react violently when challenged" is asinine and unsubstantiated. Disagreeing with you is not attacking you.
Since you can obviously read my mind you know I've hit on a single word I strongly believe applies to you, but for those who can't read my mind, the word rhymes with "glass bowl."
Now that was an attack. Please note the difference.
Thanks for proving my point.
Boo
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Every sunday. twenty days ago I started a new routine of spending 15 min to 30 min in our chapel between 5am and 6am each morning,meditating and reading psalms. I have found it clears my mind and enables me to be more disciplined and structured in my business and personal life. I am much more productive and have a more positive attitude throughout the day.
Whatever works, do it.
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So the trick question was to determine that you were unchurched by your failure to respond, "and, also, with you?"
Yes, and I still hold my cousin Betsy responsible for not whispering the answer to me. She knew I had never been to any church before (unless you count the Seder Supper my aunt and uncle took me to when I was a child) and the trauma of that humiliating day has never been erased. I still get goosebumps driving past St. George's Church, the scene of the crime.
Boo
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Every sunday. twenty days ago I started a new routine of spending 15 min to 30 min in our chapel between 5am and 6am each morning,meditating and reading psalms. I have found it clears my mind and enables me to be more disciplined and structured in my business and personal life. I am much more productive and have a more positive attitude throughout the day.
Whatever works, do it.
Forgive him, for he believes that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature.
~George Bernard Shaw
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A new religion - Aupointillimitism...
I've been worshipping regularly at that holy shrine for months now.
I have my life aims (yoga and to have xmas dinner with sting and trudy styler) and call the 900 number every morning to get my daily aim. Today I'm going to write a pop song and become famous.
Boo
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A new religion - Aupointillimitism...
That would be the best religion ever.
We could worship Parker Posey, everyone would give me their money... and then I'd go too far and set up shop with my cult flock in South America!
Wait... this is is sounding familiar.
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Any volunteers to direct the Aupointillimite Boy's Choir?
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Any volunteers to direct the Aupointillimite Boy's Choir?
Oh, I think before too long, we'll be swamped with applicants.
In the interim, everyone should begin praying several times a day while facing Richmond... and I'm gonna need donations for me the Lord's work.
That Kool-Aid ain't gonna buy itself!
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Dachsund, I have no illusions about Nature and my religion,nor do I know anyone who does. Why fear people who believe in a God? I have tried everything and I have found the only thing that keeps my sanity is spending time praying to a higher power. I dont care if your higher power is Buddha,Muhammad,or whatever.
I did this daily meditation back in late 80s when I discovered I was hiv positive and it provided me relief. I thought it was just a coincidence at the time, but the business I was starting became very successful. I quickly became to busy to pray and meditate daily.
WTF. I am trying again. In my religion, I dont give a fuck if you kill your unborn baby or marry your partner. Tolerance and moderation are the keys to individual happiness and societal harmony. I am too weak, I do not have the power to maintain the discipline needed to be successful in life and love. I pray and meditate for it daily. Try it. Try something. Maybe you are lucky enough to be strong enough to face lifes difficulties on your own. more power to you. I am not that fortunate. I need help and what i am doing works.
I do understand your distrust for religions that do not tolerate others that are different and wish to change the government in their own image. You shouldn't throw everyone into that group. Its sooo condescending
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Dachsund, I have no illusions about Nature and my religion,nor do I know anyone who does. Why fear people who believe in a God? I have tried everything and I have found the only thing that keeps my sanity is spending time praying to a higher power. I dont care if your higher power is Buddha,Muhammad,or whatever.
I did this daily meditation back in late 80s when I discovered I was hiv positive and it provided me relief. I thought it was just a coincidence at the time, but the business I was starting became very successful. I quickly became to busy to pray and meditate daily.
WTF. I am trying again. In my religion, I dont give a fuck if you kill your unborn baby or marry your partner. Tolerance and moderation are the keys to individual happiness and societal harmony. I am too weak, I do not have the power to maintain the discipline needed to be successful in life and love. I pray and meditate for it daily. Try it. Try something. Maybe you are lucky enough to be strong enough to face lifes difficulties on your own. more power to you. I am not that fortunate. I need help and what i am doing works.
I do understand your distrust for religions that do not tolerate others that are different and wish to change the government in their own image. You shouldn't throw everyone into that group. Its sooo condescending
Ahhh, spoken with true religious tolerance...shaken by the posting of an inane quote. If your brand of religion produces your type of tolerance... proof positive God is dead.
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Ahhh, spoken with true religious tolerance...shaken by the posting of an inane quote. If your brand of religion produces your type of tolerance... proof positive God is dead.
p.s. Jake I'm just yankin' your chain...glad you found solace.
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Methinks they doth protest too much? or how pregnant are his replies? LOL. Maybe those whose disdain is most vociferously professed are those whose spirituality frightens them.
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or maybe we just don't believe in your cults.
(http://www.control-z.com/pages/ccults.jpg)
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My dear departed R.C. mother used to end every phone conversation with me by saying, "I get down on my knees every night to pray that you don't burn in hell forever." And I would say in response, "And I get down on my knees every night, too, Ma." She never knew what I meant.
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My dear departed R.C. mother used to end every phone conversation with me by saying, "I get down on my knees every night to pray that you don't burn in hell forever." And I would say in response, "And I get down on my knees every night, too, Ma." She never knew what I meant.
HA HA HA HA HA!
Do you want to be my new Special Friend? ;D
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Does this Aupointillimitism religion offer coke for communiion, and is it OK to partake in vegemite drilling exercies?. It puts a rose, on every cheek!
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Does this Aupointillimitism religion offer coke for communiion, and is it OK to partake in vegemite drilling exercies?. It puts a rose, on every cheek!
Yes. For partaking of coke and wine reminds of the sacrifice that Kate Moss had to make when she was found out and put on that magazine.
And Vegemite drilling is to Aupointillimitism what confession is to Catholics. Something you should do as often as possible.
Our Ten Commandments are as follows.
Thou Shalt Not Have Any Other Beers Before PBR... unless if thou havest more money, then thou shalt drink what thou want.
Thou Shalt Engage in Vegemite Drilling
Remember The Day 4 September (The Birthday Of The True Rock God Benj) and Keep It Holy
Honor Thy Bartender And Tip Him Well
Thou Shalt Get Drunk and Mention Parker Posey To Excess Whenever Possible
Thou Shalt Not Buy Drugs Off the Streets From Someone Thou Knowest Not
Thou Shalt Not Commit. To anything. Ever.
Thou Shalt Buy Benj Drinks.
Thou Shalt Enjoy the Glorious Invention of Irony Which Gives Us Purpose
Thou Shalt Make Up An 11th Commandment As Is Convenient.
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Forgive me Father for I have sinned...I just got back from breaking the sixth commandment in the parking lot of a Piggly-Wiggly in the back seat of a Buick LaSabre.
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Forgive me Father for I have sinned...I just got back from breaking the sixth commandment in the parking lot of a Piggly-Wiggly in the back seat of a Buick LaSabre.
This is where the Vegemite Drilling comes in.
And say five "Hail Poseys" while you're at it. Preferably while Vegemite Drilling.
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Hot damn, Au got his own religion and the High Priest is Boo. Unfortunately I had to kick that religion to the curb for a few reasons...
1. I no longer partake of coke, it has left me holey, meaning the hole I now have in my nose due to overindulging
2. I'm guessing the meaning of vegemite drilling, I have no "drill" and my ass is an exit only type of hole
3. PBR, Pabst Blue Ribbon beer, I am assuming, like major ewww, I'd rather be drinking a Corona
4. I only tip bartenders when my drink arrives in a timely manner and with a good attitude
5. Drunk,high or sober, I have no clue who the hell Parker Posey is
6. I'm already committed to weed, there shall be no one before it
7. If I buy someone a drink, I expect a round in return
8. Prefers sarcasm to irony, sarcasm is more funny to me
But you know I love me some Benj ...... ;D
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INFIDEL!
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or maybe we just don't believe in your cults.
(http://www.control-z.com/pages/ccults.jpg)
Surprisingly, that type of blind allegiance is exactly what I would also oppose. Our faith may be 2000 years olds, but our thinking is not.
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Sorry, Boo, but your emotional reaction basically proves my point. You think there is no God. Fine. Prove it.
How absurd. You can't prove a negative. Therefore your request is illogical.
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Akasha,
Isn't Parker Posey Mouse's tarantula?
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How absurd. You can't prove a negative. Therefore your request is illogical.
Well duh
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Akasha,
Isn't Parker Posey Mouse's tarantula?
If Mouse named his tarantula Parker Posey... I'll have an awesome position for him in aupointillimitism.
Probably Ambassador to France.
Hail, Parker Posey!
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/marsaudiacsolo/p_as_j.gif)
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Sorry he named it Peter Parker - after Spiderman. The postion of ambassador to the Elysées Palace is still open.
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Sorry he named it Peter Parker - after Spiderman. The postion of ambassador to the Elysées Palace is still open.
Looks like he's gonna be Ambassador to Nebraska now. ;)
Always time to change spidey's name...
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Hey, no naked pics at #100? What gives? Well, here's a naked female Jesus. Where's our savior, aupoint?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hey, no naked pics at #100? What gives? Well, here's a naked female Jesus. Where's our savior, aupoint?
Oh, I'm not your savior. Parker Posey is. I put a picture of here in post 101!
I am merely her messenger. And unless I see a 12 pack of PBR and a million dollars in Euros on my door next week... I'm afraid I won't be able to take that awesome vacation will be "called home" by Parker Posey a la Oral Roberts.
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Bob wants to worship at the alter too!
(http://data1.blog.de/blog/d/darwinsmoustache/img/fb6.jpg)
and this is for your avatar benj
(http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:7jD5To3c7Uh06M:http://wiki.urbandead.com/images/0/01/Queer-jew-400px.gif)
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Bob wants to worship at the alter too!
Hey!! I lost 15 pounds since that picture was taken!!
Boo
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I love that avatar!
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I love that avatar!
The triangle pointing up should be pink!!
then it would be for a queer jew...
Boo
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I try to go as often as possible. I am surprised to see how many people don't believe in God. There are hipocrites everywhere including church. I worked with many gays that were always hipocrites and back stabbing each other. I have also met religious people doing the same thing. I am not trying to convert anyone but I can assure you there is a God.
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your supposed 'assurances' are worth about as much as the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. (hell, somebody might buy it on ebay?@?).
Stop making asinine statements assuring people that a god exists. You are a heathen and rather insipid to believe in a fairy tale. Do you also believe in Santa Clause still?
Why exactly would you be surprised that people don't believe in a fairy tale? Just because you are weak willed and others may be 'afraid of death' does not consitutute proof of a never-proven afterlife....no...matter...how...much....you...want...to...believe...in....it.
Sorry you've joined a cult. Hope that works out for ya.
kthanxbye
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Bailey (Dingo):
That was an unbelievably obnoxious and bitchy response, even for you.
Okay, you're not religious and don't believe in God or any other deity. We get it. But for you to attack another member of the Forums for his or her beliefs -- after making benign statements about his belief in God and casual remarks about his observations (and don't even think about turning this into "his statements offending you" or having anything to do with you) -- is simply uncalled for.
You know what? I've met a lot of people with HIV/AIDS who have an intense commitment to their deity of choice and to their church. All over the United States, in parts of the country hit really hard by the epidemic (think the rural South; think blighted urban neighborhoods), religious-based organizations -- notably community churches -- are the only ones providing the services and support that THOUSANDS of HIV-positive people desperately need. And beyond whatever tangible services and support someone might get through their church or a religious-based organization, if an HIV-positive person's religion or spirituality gets him or her through the thick and thin of it, well, that's not for anyone else to shit all over. You have your coping mechanism; others have theirs.
Just as we don't tolerate dogma and theological-based abuse of others in the Forums, I also want to make it clear that we do not tolerate religion bashing. You can be a secular humanist without resorting to that nonsense. It doesn't even make you sound cool or enlightened; it makes you sound ignorant.
Personally, I'd love nothing more to give you a time out for such nastiness. But I'm going to let this slide... on the condition that you apologize, either publicly or privately, to Cheo63 for your insensitivity.
Tim Horn
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KUDOS to Tim Horn.
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Akasha,
Isn't Parker Posey Mouse's tarantula?
I thought Mouse's spidey was called Peter Parker?
(thinks to herself someone needs a hug but I won't tell.. :-X)
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I was raised Catholic but became a Congregationalist (United Church of Christ) cause I still believed in Christianity but couldn't deal with most of the rigid stances of the Catholic Church. Plus I'm a hardcore liberal and felt out of place in the Catholic Church and the UCC was so warm and welcoming -- especially the one I consider my home base which is Open and Affirming designated.
I agree with Queen - respect each others beliefs. I don't expect, or try, or have any right, to make any one believe what I believe, and I don't expect others to try to convert me (not that I'm very persuadable anyway.) :)
I told my parents and my boyfriend when I die I want the funeral at this pretty UCC Church out on Long Island. It personally bring me comfort and peace.
Mikey :)
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THANK YOU TIM!!
Its cool if you dont belive in God I respect that. Its not a problem. But I do and thats cool as well.
I hate the way people say christians Judge others (yes some do but they are a minority.) But people who dont have spiritual beleifs judge christians just as much if not more.... something to think about there
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Its funny how you change the older you get. I remember doing a term paper in college for a Religious History Class on why Organized Religion was the greatest evil in the world and belief in God was just for the weak. I think I wrote it after reading three Ann Rand books and was aided by buckets of amphetamines. I thought it was quite good,my professor a PHD threw it in the garbage can. He flunked me. Only class I ever got lower than a B in.
Well,its 5:30 am and I am off to the chapel for my daily prayer and meditation.
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"There cannot be a God because if there were one, I could not believe that I was not He." (Friedrich Nietzsche)
Churches are religion. In my opinion religion is man-made madness.
I do believe in God, and have all the proof I need of his love.
Daniel
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your supposed 'assurances' are worth about as much as the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. (hell, somebody might buy it on ebay?@?).
Stop making asinine statements assuring people that a god exists. You are a heathen and rather insipid to believe in a fairy tale. Do you also believe in Santa Clause still?
Why exactly would you be surprised that people don't believe in a fairy tale? Just because you are weak willed and others may be 'afraid of death' does not consitutute proof of a never-proven afterlife....no...matter...how...much....you...want...to...believe...in....it.
Sorry you've joined a cult. Hope that works out for ya.
kthanxbye
Just guess, but thinking that this type of reaction results from a very bad experience. But, it does bring an interesting point regarding various beliefs and the purpose behind a church. Some churches and a lot that you seen on television are primarily "saving souls." While others, focus primarily on man's relationship to God and his fellow man. Tell us, Dingo, what happened?
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I was raised Catholic but became a Congregationalist (United Church of Christ) cause I still believed in Christianity but couldn't deal with most of the rigid stances of the Catholic Church. Plus I'm a hardcore liberal and felt out of place in the Catholic Church and the UCC was so warm and welcoming -- especially the one I consider my home base which is Open and Affirming designated.
I agree with Queen - respect each others beliefs. I don't expect, or try, or have any right, to make any one believe what I believe, and I don't expect others to try to convert me (not that I'm very persuadable anyway.) :)
I told my parents and my boyfriend when I die I want the funeral at this pretty UCC Church out on Long Island. It personally bring me comfort and peace.
Mikey :)
Yay! I.UCC.2!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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"There cannot be a God because if there were one, I could not believe that I was not He." (Friedrich Nietzsche)
Churches are religion. In my opinion religion is man-made madness.
I do believe in God, and have all the proof I need of his love.
Daniel
Do you hear him pass in the rustling grass?
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I try to go as often as possible. I am surprised to see how many people don't believe in God. There are hipocrites everywhere including church. I worked with many gays that were always hipocrites and back stabbing each other. I have also met religious people doing the same thing. I am not trying to convert anyone but I can assure you there is a God.
Because he lives within your heart.
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Oh, I'm not your savior. Parker Posey is. I put a picture of here in post 101!
I am merely her messenger. And unless I see a 12 pack of PBR and a million dollars in Euros on my door next week... I'm afraid I won't be able to take that awesome vacation will be "called home" by Parker Posey a la Oral Roberts.
I'm just afraid people are now abbreviating aupointillimitism down to autism....
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Do you hear him pass in the rustling grass?
I sense him in the grass and everywhere else Fondeveau, when I stop filling my life and thoughts with noise and distractions.
“And down they forgot as up they grew.” (unknown)
"That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it you can't understand it. And if you do, no explanation is necessary." (Kira Nerys)
Daniel
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I'm thinking.... and considering....
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I'm thinking.... and considering....
So as long as you don't think I'm trying to flame bait you. I really am just interested in your perspective.
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oh, it's coming... no I don't think it's flame bait from you.
I need to get my thoughts in order and respond in a coherent manner that represents the way I feel.
It may be my doom.
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I haven't been to church on a Sunday since I was young. I think organised religion causes way more problems than it solves and it breeds ignorance and illogical thought by saying that people should just have 'faith' regardless as to whether it makes logical sense or not. It discourages people from thinking for themselves, encouraging them to follow, sheep-like ,and I despise the way people use a book of extremely dubious origin to justify their prejudices and bigotry.
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I'm a Catholic in recovery and on the verge of contracting atheism, so I don't go to church very much
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I am a non practicing Methodist. One of my best friends is a FORMER catholic nun. Although she still goes to church and prays for all her friends, she is just the sweetest person in the world and I love her dearly. Whenever we have someone ill or hurt she prays for them. Hey it cant hurt.
And.........................what is it about nuns that brings out the habits on Halloween?????
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-2/1145146/zNUN.jpg)
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Thank you Tim for your comments. Believe me, I did not get offended at all. I expected at least one person to respond that way. I am Catholic and at one point in my life was very angry at the church. However, things changed in my life and I now believe in God. It is a person's right to believe or not. I posted my comments as part of sharing not to convert anyone (unless they want to! lol). In any case, thanks again.
DingoBoi, you don't have to apologize.
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I can and will apologize for the abusive tone of my post. I cannot apologize for the basic content of such as god simply doesn't exist. Tim, while I can appreciate some people choose to believe in mythology as a source of strength, they can do so in the Living With forum, where I purposely avoid conversations like this. I would not deign to educate someone there about their delusions. I can appreciate that many religious based organizations are the only ones providing aid and support in some areas. However, community service is no proof of religion.
This forum is different and to let claims of the existance of god go unanswered is tantamount to denying the very science this site is based upon... which is quite an incongruous position to be in. Do you support science or mythology or do you pick and choose when one should apply and when the other should? This would not pass muster in the Fears forum and I cannot let it pass muster in off-topic, no matter how shattered peoples worlds will be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ&feature=PlayList&p=BCED8CE274DDFB25&index=42
For a tangible and logical, well thought explanation: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/ (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/)
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1) God does heal amputees:
Luke 6:6-11
It also happened on another Sabbath that he entered into the synagogue and taught.
There was a man there, and his right hand was withered.
The scribes and the Pharisees watched him,
to see whether he would heal on the Sabbath,
that they might find an accusation against him.
But he knew their thoughts;
and he said to the man who had the withered hand,
"Rise up, and stand in the middle."
He arose and stood.
Then Jesus said to them, "I will ask you something:
Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good, or to do harm?
To save a life, or to kill?"
He looked around at them all, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand."
He did, and his hand was restored as sound as the other.
But they were filled with rage,
and talked with one another about what they might do to Jesus.
Luke 22:49-51
49 When those who were around him saw what was about to happen,
they said to him, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?"
50 A certain one of them struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.
51 But Jesus answered, "Let me at least do this"
—and he touched his ear, and healed him.
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2) Why are people starving?
Luke 9:10-17
The apostles, when they had returned, told him what things they had done.
He took them, and withdrew apart to a deserted place of a city called Bethsaida.
But the multitudes, perceiving it, followed him.
He welcomed them, and spoke to them of the Kingdom of God,
and he cured those who needed healing.
The day began to wear away; and the twelve came, and said to him, "Send the multitude away, that they may go into the surrounding villages and farms, and lodge, and get food, for we are here in a deserted place."
But he said to them, "You give them something to eat." They said, "We have no more than five loaves and two fish, unless we should go and buy food for all these people."
For they were about five thousand men.
He said to his disciples, "Make them sit down in groups of about fifty each."
They did so, and made them all sit down.
He took the five loaves and the two fish, and looking up to the sky, he blessed them,
and broke them, and gave them to the disciples to set before the multitude.
They ate, and were all filled.
They gathered up twelve baskets of broken pieces that were left over.
Some would say that the miracle was making something out of little or nothing. Others read this story that Jesus' example was sharing. That the real miracle was that each of the 5000 shared what they had with their neighbor. By sharing, everyone had their fill and there was plenty leftover. In our world, people aren't starving because God hasn't provided, but because we simply won't share enough. This is the same reason why many HIV+ people don't have meds.
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http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video8.htm
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Isn't it something of a circular tautology to answer Bailey's question using the Bible?
I'm an atheist for essentially the reasons given in the last link Bailey provided. I see no evidence for God anywhere. None. And of he does exist, then he manifests himself as an absence and thus is to be ignored.
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3) Why does God demand the death of innocents?
Well, the examples given aren't really the best example of God's demand for innocent blood. The story of Isaac is definitely more challenging in that regard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_of_Isaac. The demands for innocent blood are all examples taken from the Old Testament and specifically the books dealing with the Law of Moses. Christians believe that God sacrificed his own son, Jesus, that we need no longer die for our sins whether we break the sabbath, act like a rebellious teenager, or are gay, etc.
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4) Bible vs. Science - the viewpoint that the Bible and science are somehow are at odds with each other simply isn't the viewpoint of many Christians - http://www.ucc.org/justice/education/evolution.pdf.
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The cure of your delusions
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video7.htm
and why you will never go to heaven
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video1.htm
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5) God Loves Slavery:
Most of us agree that being a Christian is more than a set of beliefs; it requires right action. Furthermore, Christian action, we think, ought to be informed by the Bible. Yet in the history of the church, Christians have read the same Bible and sometimes ended up justifying radically different actions—especially related to questions of war, race, gender and sexuality.
The 19th-century U.S. struggle over slavery is a case in point. Many northerners condemned slavery, whereas southerners supported it. The Rev. James Pennington, who was born a slave in 1807 in Maryland, escaped to become one of a handful of well-educated African-American clergy serving Congregational churches in Massachusetts and Connecticut. He was active in the anti-slavery movement.
Pennington, like many black Christians, struggled to have faith in a God who could permit slavery—who could make such a "serious blunder" in the order of things. He could not imagine how a wise and good God created a world with the evil of slavery. "If I am deceived here—if the word of God does sanction slavery, I want another book, another repentance, another faith, and another hope! I speak very reverently, and from a deep and mournful reflection," he wrote.
In his struggle with this issue, Pennington came to believe that slaveholding was "condemned by the general tenor and scope of the New Testament." Why? Because the "system of slavery" produced "great cruelty." Look at the actions supported by slavery, he preached. "If we could calculate the amount of woe endured by ill-treated slaves, it would overwhelm every compassionate heart." Such actions did not "agree with the Gospel." No text in the Bible, he insisted, sanctions cruelty, or mangling, or imprisonment, or starvation, or torture. Therefore, Christians must ask other Christians "by what authority they have done these things and continue to do them."
Pennington thought that Northern Christians had "a right to refuse communion with American slaveholders as Christians." "My brethren," wrote Pennington, "the question is fully settled with me; I hope it is with you."
There are issues in our time where biblical texts present conflicting messages that divide Christians. Like Pennington, we might do well to ask, what is the "general tenor and scope of the New Testament?" How do various beliefs relate to actions? And what actions are in keeping with the whole message of the Gospel? Clearly, not that God loved slavery?
A Different Kind of Slavery:
"Proclaim liberty throughout the lands and to all the inhabitants thereof,
it shall be a jubilee for you." Leviticus 25:10
“Every seventh year you shall grant a remission of debts... Remember,
you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you;
for this reason I lay this command upon you today.” Deuteronomy 15:1, 14-15
In Leviticus, a Jubilee year is a special year of remission of sins and
universal pardon. Slaves and prisoners are to be freed, debts are to be forgiven,
equal relations in communities are to be restored, and the mercies of God are to
be particularly evident.
Pope John Paul II announced a Great Jubilee for the year 2000.
Protestant and Orthodox Churches were invited to celebrate the Jubilee together
with Roman Catholics as a sign of ecumenical dialogue. The Pope’s
proclamation raised the profile of debt cancellation in an unprecedented way.
Seven years later, the Jubilee/USA Network, which works to eliminate unjust
global debt, has declared 2007 a Sabbath Year. The United Church of Christ is
a proud member of the Jubilee coalition, calling for debt cancellation in some of
the world’s poorest countries and inspiring policy makers to imagine that
another world is possible.
Some of the global debt statistics are staggering: For every dollar sent to
poor countries in aid, $1.30 flows back to lenders in debt service. Although $7.5
and $15 billion is needed annually to fight HIV/AIDS in Africa each year,
Africa pays out $13.5 billion in debt service every year.
These statistics are far more disturbing in cases of illegitimate and odious
debt, debt incurred by regimes (often dictatorships or un-democratically elected
leaders) for purposes that have not benefited the people of that country. In some
cases, the money has gone to directly oppressing the people. Most of the time
the lenders such as the World Bank and International Monetary Fund know that
the money will never reach the people of the country. Yet the people of the
world’s poorest countries are left paying the interest incurred with little hope of
breaking the chains of this new form of slavery in their lifetime.
The All Africa Council of Churches has said that, “every child in
Africa is born with a financial burden which a lifetime’s work cannot repay.
The debt is a new form of slavery as vicious as the slave trade.”
Jubilee USA boldly calls for a type of justice that does not conform to
our society’s traditional view of justice. It calls for debt cancellation without
condition. It calls for freedom without repayment. It calls for a forgiveness that
is reminiscent of God’s saving grace. This echo of God’s grace that rings
throughout the Jubilee campaign is exactly why we Christians should act up in
2007.
January 21, 2007 is Jubilee Sunday and will launch the Sabbath year.
Why not start now? Learn more at www.jubileeusa.org.
Nor should we love slavery.
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6) Why do bad things happen to Good People?
This is a very good question and the subject of the book of Job. http://blog.netesq.com/2004/11/why-does-god-let-good-people-suffer.html.
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7) Why is there no evidence of Jesus' miracles?
I'm not sure whether its being asked whether Jesus' miracles can be explained naturally or they are looking for something concrete? But, as with the story of the loaves and fishes, the real miracle was the change in how people saw each other and cared for one another.
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you still aren't using critical thinking in any of your arguments. See the milk jug movie...again.
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8) Why doesn't Jesus appear?
To whom or for what purpose? At different times, God spoke to man in different ways. Notice that there are no prophets among us?
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9) Eat my body drink my blood.
Yes, it sounds horribly cannibalistic and indeed this was one point which Romans used to persecute that outlandish sect. Communion is basically a sacrament of remembrance - remembering the sacrifice of Christ for the redemption of mankind.
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10) Why are so many Christians divorced?
Because Christians are no different from any others humans that walk the face of the earth. There may be some who think they are different, but, its just not true. Christians have the same trials, downfalls, heartbreaks as every other human.
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Isn't it something of a circular tautology to answer Bailey's question using the Bible?
I'm an atheist for essentially the reasons given in the last link Bailey provided. I see no evidence for God anywhere. None. And of he does exist, then he manifests himself as an absence and thus is to be ignored.
Its not an answer to Bailey's question. The video asks why God doesn't heal amputees. The simple answer is that He does and in two recorded instances, Jesus did. Of course, you could get into more fundamental Christian thought and start talking about people being assumed into heaven on the day of rapture and rising from the grave and being made whole again, etc.
Well, you may not see evidence of God and that is fine for you and fine for Bailey. I see evidence of God when I see people loving their neighbors and doing unto others. Indeed you are right, where such loving and care do not exist, God is truly absent and ignored.
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you still aren't using critical thinking in any of your arguments. See the milk jug movie...again.
Oh, its not that I want us to ever agree. Your definition or perception of something Christian might better be labelled "fundamentalist" or "televangelist" - often the loudest voices in the Christian community, but not representative of all. I couldn't agree more when someone says Oral Roberts is a silly ass for saying that God told him he would be called home if people didn't send more money. Christianity is ripe for such abuse and historically endured such abuse where people would not critically think about what was being promoted in the name of faith.
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uh oh
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Your definition or perception of something Christian might better be labelled "fundamentalist" or "televangelist" - often the loudest voices in the Christian community, but not representative of all.
you are using circular reasoning again. You cannot pick and choose which versus you like and which apply and don't apply. If you can't go by all of it, you can't go by any of it. Therefore it is all a lie. Anything with intelligence will see it is so.
One can be loving and kind to their neighbors clearly knowing there is no existance of god. The bible also says alot of nasty things.
Two recorded instances? Yes, just like the holy ghost knocking up Mary. Mmmmm yeah. No proof there.
As to fundamentalist Christian thought, see the video of why you will never go to heaven.
Science reigns in this forum and not your propaganda.
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Isn't it something of a circular tautology to answer Bailey's question using the Bible?
I'm an atheist for essentially the reasons given in the last link Bailey provided. I see no evidence for God anywhere. None. And of he does exist, then he manifests himself as an absence and thus is to be ignored.
Isn't it something of a circular tautology to answer Bailey's question using the Bible?
I'm an atheist for essentially the reasons given in the last link Bailey provided. I see no evidence for God anywhere. None. And of he does exist, then he manifests himself as an absence and thus is to be ignored.
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abuse where people would not critically think about what was being promoted in the name of faith.
Sadly, you continue to miss the point which is that you should think critically ABOUT your faith. Once you start, you disprove the existance of your fairy tale.
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Has nothing to dop wiiht me. ha ha hop ho
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you are using circular reasoning again. You cannot pick and choose which versus you like and which apply and don't apply. If you can't go by all of it, you can't go by any of it. Therefore it is all a lie. Anything with intelligence will see it is so.
One can be loving and kind to their neighbors clearly knowing there is no existance of god. The bible also says alot of nasty things.
Two recorded instances? Yes, just like the holy ghost knocking up Mary. Mmmmm yeah. No proof there.
As to fundamentalist Christian thought, see the video of why you will never go to heaven.
Science reigns in this forum and not your propaganda.
My goal isn't really to go to heaven. Rather, to build on earth a bit of God's kingdom. You may not find Christianity to be a system that works for you and there is enough disparity of belief that it would be hard to define anything as being "Christian." The Catholic Church would tell you that you must believe in the virgin birth to be a Christian. I would tell you that as a Christian you could believe it or not believe it. I'm glad we can agree on loving your neighbors and being kind as this shows one important thing: that which unites us is greater than that which divides us.
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Understanding Your Delusion: 101
Here is an example that can help you to understand how religion works in our world today.
Example 1
Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:
- There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
During the year, he and the elves build toys.
Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
He puts the sack in his sleigh.
He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
He leaves toys for the children of the household.
He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
He does this all around the world in one night.
Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.
This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.
But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.
What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.
Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.
Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:
"But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.
"How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.
"How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.
"Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.
"How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.
"How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.
"Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.
These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.
Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.
And so are your reasons for the existance of god.
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You cannot pick and choose which versus you like and which apply and don't apply. If you can't go by all of it, you can't go by any of it. Therefore it is all a lie. Anything with intelligence will see it is so.
Yet, Question (or verse #2) asked Why People Are Starving? I've answered you that isn't that God has failed to provide, but that man has failed to share. Therefore, you can no longer believe any of the delusions previously espoused?
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Hey DingoBoi,
Didn't I read something in another thread about you being psychic?
Maybe you were kidding?
If not, I'm just curious how you apply the rules of critical thinking to psychic phenomena?
(By the way, I'm agnostic at best, but lean more towards atheism. I'm also not a big believer in psychic phenomena.)
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Hey Fondeveau,
I must say that I agree with all of your answers/comments. Couldn't have done a better job myself. One thing that people forget is that God gave us "free will". God doesn't punish people. What we take as punishments are really consequences of our actions and nothing more. Also, if people have had a bad experience with a religious person(s) tor at a church, hey automatically assume that all religious people or churches are the same. Isn't that stereotyping? Anyway, I wanted to say that I agree with everything you have said!
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see santa explantion... you are just making this stuff up (ok, what other people made up) believing in what everyone outside your bubble considers to be delusional.
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I believe in God and it doesn't make me delusional. I don't believe in trying to convince anyone of my beliefs, nor do I like anyone trying to convince me of theirs.
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The problem is that your delusion, combined with the delusion of billions of other religious people like you, is hurting us as a species. It does not matter if you are a fundamentalist Christian, a moderate Christian or a casual Christian. Your delusion is hurting us.
A planet full of delusional people is not healthy. The delusion of Christianity radically devalues human life. We routinely send soldiers into battle telling them that when they die, they go to heaven.
The delusion of Christianity replaces rational thought with mythology. 60% of adults in Amerika believe that god will return and destroy the planet. Myths like this grossly skew your thinking about the future of our species and also slow scientific progress.
The delusion of Christianity, or any religion, forces you to discard rational thought in many parts of your life and your irrationalilty hurts us all.
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I'm not hurting you with my beliefs nor is anyone else.
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*see further response above... I was adding as you responded.
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I don't understand why you have to flamebait this thread. You seen the topic, but you are trying to chastise persons for they way they believe. Why don't you just move on and be done, instead of pushing your beliefs that wasn't even a topic of the discussion of this thread.
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Survival, as a species, dictates that we renounce such outlandish delusions based on fantasy. That's a pretty damn good explanation to me.
I seem to be the bad guy here. And I was abusive in one post. I admit and apologized for that... and not because the Tim commanded so.
The subtle and often explicit indoctrination of people into the fantasyland of religion is mortifying to me. If you do not wish to see rebuttles to fantasy with scientific fact, which is notably what the fears forum is all about, then perhaps such threads as this should not be posted at all in these forums.
A question of 'do you go to church' can hardly be responded to without an critical evalation of the mythological deity you worship blindly even exists.
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Whatever Dingo, if you want to flamebait go ahead, that is all you are doing and I hope no others grab the bait. Your statements have no bases for this thread what so ever.
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no, I'm discussing rational, logical thought.
Why don't we believe in Zues anymore? Or any of the other 'gods'? Because that civilization has passed, and more importantly, explanations have been found for what was once considered magic.
Mercury was the god on a flaming chariot riding across the sky. Do you believe in that? Nope, the sun is just a big orb of burning gas. But at the time, it comforted people who did not understand science.
You can either accept science or reject it. There is no empirical evidence of the existance of god and no matter how much you wish to call it flamebaiting doesn't make it so.
I'm sorry to have to challenge your dogmatic beliefs with science. I'm sorry it doesn't hold up to that.
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Mercury was the god on a flaming chariot riding across the sky. Do you believe in that? Nope, the sun is just a big orb of burning gas. But at the time, it comforted people who did not understand science.
It was actually Apollo, but I won't tell if you don't.
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bah... ::)
Bailey (who got a B- in Greek Mythology)
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Hey,Dingo... be careful... if you dare to disagree with some of the people on this thread, you will automatically be branded as a flamebaiter, prejudiced or any number of other heinous things, regardless of how you represent yourself. Remember, it is the nature of belief to be not subject to proof, and, therefore, easily shaken, especially when the person screaming the loudest is not secure in his or her own beliefs.
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I'm on a holy mission from the Milk Jug... but I could convert to Aupointillism. Yes, I would kneel and accept my savior's gifts.
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...
The delusion of Christianity, or any religion, forces you to discard rational thought in many parts of your life and your irrationalilty hurts us all.
Dingo, since we live in a "Christian" nation most of my criticism is aimed at Christianity but your bigger point is virtually ALL organized religions are inimical to human progress. I agree.
Boo
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I'm on a holy mission from the Milk Jug... but I could convert to Aupointillism. Yes, I would kneel and accept my savior's gifts.
Yes!
I don't see why we're bickering when we could all get on the Aupointillimitism bandwagon and worship Parker Posey. She's real. I have seen her in movies!
Now shut up, and drink your Kool-Aid.
It was technically Flavor-Aid that they used (meaning they used generic colored water to take themselves to the great beyond rather than brand... what the deuce was that?)... but since I'm a kind and loving leader, I'll spring an extra 4 cents for the good stuff...
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Everything I do, say, think, excrete, secrete, exude, or write © 2007 Sweet Old Boo, Inc.
LOL! Oh dear! I think I just violated your copyright Boo. (http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/deemark/Emoticons/runningpup.gif) Be gentle with me okay?
It is not in the nature of the loving God I know to hate anyone. That's a human condition.
Daniel
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Yet, Question (or verse #2) asked Why People Are Starving? I've answered you that isn't that God has failed to provide, but that man has failed to share. Therefore, you can no longer believe any of the delusions previously espoused?
Fondeveau, I am going to question your response here. The assumptions underlying the statement "man has failed to share" are quite distressing to me:
1. god made man. man failed. so god failed?
2. or maybe god made man with free will. why? so man can create situations which allow things like starvation? why worship such a cruel thing?
3. bad things are caused by man. only good things can be attributed to god. in fact, both Augustine and Jean Cauvin, when analyzing the same questions came to the ultimate puritannical conclusion that man is inherently evil, and originated some of the doctrines of original Sin.
In short, while I really can't say that I believe in God, or not... because I don't know, I find your explanation to be wholly dissatisfying, both from the standpoint of someone who might believe, or from someone looking at it from a scientific point of view.
This is not the first time questions have been posed which ask why a god of infinite goodness can allow bad things to happen. But this is not the response that I usually see which is the most satisfactory. Usually you see things like, "god allows people to suffer in order to make them grow, in order to teach, etc" This also opens up a whole can of worms, but blaming starvation on mankind's failure to share implies, to me, a huge failure in the entire Christian eschatology.
I respect your right to believe what you believe. But I find this explanation to be, frankly, inhumane.
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I remember reading this in high school... it helped put me on the path to devout atheism.
I have no idea who wrote it... but it's pretty funny.
"John and Mary's Big Deal"
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the shit out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the shit out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on 'From the desk of Karl' letterhead. There were eleven items listed:
1. Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't drink.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.
Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
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It is not in the nature of the loving God I know to hate anyone. That's a human condition.
The bible states essentially that god was an evil prick (sorry tim, but he was kind of an evil bastard in alot of the 'tales'.)
To educate yourself
Why the bible is repulsive
(http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video2.htm/)
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Q: What do you get when you cross a Jehovah Witness with an atheist?
A: Someone who knocks on your door for no goddam good reason.
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The bible states essentially that god was an evil prick (sorry tim, but he was kind of an evil bastard in alot of the 'tales'.)
To educate yourself
Why the bible is repulsive
(http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/video2.htm/)
There are a lot of things in the Bible that demonstrate the ire of the Hebrew sky god.... and many serious scholars generally intepret these tales as allegorical, much to the chagrin of biblical literalists. However, any time a holy doctrine is written in such a way as to allow interpretation, it becomes a point of faith for a potential schism. Religion and belief is a messy business. I am not sure that deprecating the purported deity serves any real purpose for intelligent conversation, but (what I believe to be the) point behind your statement is fairly common: how can a god that's supposedly good, be portrayed doing evil things in what is supposed to be the holy canon?
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Joshua Chapter 6. Verses 1-27. Quite a famous story... one in which God tells the Israelites to kill everyone in Jericho... simply because they're in the way of a Hebrew migration.
1 Now the gates of Jericho were tightly shut because the people were afraid of the Israelites. No one was allowed to go out or in. 2 But the Lord said to Joshua, “I have given you Jericho, its king, and all its strong warriors. 3 You and your fighting men should march around the town once a day for six days. 4 Seven priests will walk ahead of the Ark, each carrying a ram’s horn. On the seventh day you are to march around the town seven times, with the priests blowing the horns. 5 When you hear the priests give one long blast on the rams’ horns, have all the people shout as loud as they can. Then the walls of the town will collapse, and the people can charge straight into the town.”
6 So Joshua called together the priests and said, “Take up the Ark of the Lord’s Covenant, and assign seven priests to walk in front of it, each carrying a ram’s horn.” 7 Then he gave orders to the people: “March around the town, and the armed men will lead the way in front of the Ark of the Lord.”
8 After Joshua spoke to the people, the seven priests with the rams’ horns started marching in the presence of the Lord, blowing the horns as they marched. And the Ark of the Lord’s Covenant followed behind them. 9 Some of the armed men marched in front of the priests with the horns and some behind the Ark, with the priests continually blowing the horns. 10 “Do not shout; do not even talk,” Joshua commanded. “Not a single word from any of you until I tell you to shout. Then shout!” 11 So the Ark of the Lord was carried around the town once that day, and then everyone returned to spend the night in the camp.
12 Joshua got up early the next morning, and the priests again carried the Ark of the Lord. 13 The seven priests with the rams’ horns marched in front of the Ark of the Lord, blowing their horns. Again the armed men marched both in front of the priests with the horns and behind the Ark of the Lord. All this time the priests were blowing their horns. 14 On the second day they again marched around the town once and returned to the camp. They followed this pattern for six days.
15 On the seventh day the Israelites got up at dawn and marched around the town as they had done before. But this time they went around the town seven times. 16 The seventh time around, as the priests sounded the long blast on their horns, Joshua commanded the people, “Shout! For the Lord has given you the town! 17 Jericho and everything in it must be completely destroyed[a] as an offering to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and the others in her house will be spared, for she protected our spies.
18 “Do not take any of the things set apart for destruction, or you yourselves will be completely destroyed, and you will bring trouble on the camp of Israel. 19 Everything made from silver, gold, bronze, or iron is sacred to the Lord and must be brought into his treasury.”
20 When the people heard the sound of the rams’ horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the town and captured it. 21 They completely destroyed everything in it with their swords—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, goats, and donkeys.
22 Meanwhile, Joshua said to the two spies, “Keep your promise. Go to the prostitute’s house and bring her out, along with all her family.”
23 The men who had been spies went in and brought out Rahab, her father, mother, brothers, and all the other relatives who were with her. They moved her whole family to a safe place near the camp of Israel.
24 Then the Israelites burned the town and everything in it. Only the things made from silver, gold, bronze, or iron were kept for the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 So Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute and her relatives who were with her in the house, because she had hidden the spies Joshua sent to Jericho. And she lives among the Israelites to this day.
26 At that time Joshua invoked this curse:
“May the curse of the Lord fall on anyone
who tries to rebuild the town of Jericho.
At the cost of his firstborn son,
he will lay its foundation.
At the cost of his youngest son,
he will set up its gates.”
27 So the Lord was with Joshua, and his reputation spread throughout the land.
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Judges Chapter 1. Verse 1-7. God delivers 10,000 people into the hands of the Israelites to be killed. 71 kings are mutilated.
1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.
5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.
6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.
7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.
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Hey,Dingo... be careful... if you dare to disagree with some of the people on this thread, you will automatically be branded as a flamebaiter, prejudiced or any number of other heinous things, regardless of how you represent yourself. Remember, it is the nature of belief to be not subject to proof, and, therefore, easily shaken, especially when the person screaming the loudest is not secure in his or her own beliefs.
Gee, puck, coming from you the advice above seems rather strange. I disagreed with you (apparently) and your responses (below) claimed I had never thought out my beliefs, I am dangerous, likely to resort to violence (with a gun, yet), and my responses are emotional attacks against you. Bailey seems as sure of his beliefs as I am. Why haven't you given him a dose of your wisdom on the subject?
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107652#msg107652 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107652#msg107652):
That is a rather broad brush labeling certified theists and atheists as "dangerous," dontcha think? I've been an atheist since adolescence but what someone else believes is her/his own business. As long as you don't try to convert me I will reciprocate fully.
Sorry, Boo, but your emotional reaction basically proves my point. You think there is no God. Fine. Prove it.
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107748#msg107748 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107748#msg107748)
You're right that it's based on belief, which makes it oh so easy to believe with absolute certainty that you are correct. It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness... they start off spouting things like "you're the most prejudiced ... blah blah blah... and end up with a gun in their hand just to make their point. Sorry, boo, but people who feel no need to examine their beliefs scare me.
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107776#msg107776 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8828.msg107776#msg107776)
I am just making a point that people who hold their beliefs with absolute certainty are more likely to react violently when challenged. Thanks for proving my point.
It seems odd you haven't engaged Dingo in a similar dialog since he obviously holds his beliefs with "absolute certainty." Are one atheist's views more acceptable than another's? I got sarcastic after you continued to pontificate but that was because of your judgmental, self-righteous pronouncements.
I guess this post is another emotional attack, too.
Boo
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well, that answer is simple boo...
you didn't provide clicky's refuting the delusion of god. I did.
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It seems odd you haven't engaged Dingo in a similar dialog since he obviously holds his beliefs with "absolute certainty." Are one atheist's views more acceptable than another's? I got sarcastic after you continued to pontificate but that was because of your judgmental, self-righteous pronouncements.
I guess this post is another emotional attack, too.
Boo
Boo, I find it interesting that you declined to quote the times where you attacked me personally. If you would like to have an adult discussion of this topic, then I encourage it. However, if you resort to name-calling again, I will simply ignore you.
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Huzzah!
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It's is simply hard for one of intelligence to refrain from calling people 'stupid, irrational, idiots, delusional and moronic' in the context of this discussion.
Yes, that is to be refrained from as it is not nice to be rude to others.
But when you believe in a fantasy, much like santa clause, how do you expect the rest of us to act? Really?!? Do you not expect us to act if you are crazy?
Extinction would be a blessing for the human race because they aren't smart enough to discern mythology from science.
edit: who's betting on when I get banned?
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It's is simply hard for one of intelligence to refrain from calling people 'stupid, irrational, idiots, delusional and moronic' in the context of this discussion.
Yes, that is to be refrained from as it is not nice to be rude to others.
But when you believe in a fantasy, much like santa clause, how do you expect the rest of us to act? Really?!? Do you not expect us to act if you are crazy?
Extinction would be a blessing for the human race because they aren't smart enough to discern mythology from science.
I have enough doubts about whether god exists or not to basically decline from calling people stupid for believing in something. This does not stop me from challenging someone's answer, as I believe i did with fondeveau. And, I am sure, that if I got to know you, I could find things that you believe which don't fit neatly into a rational paradigm. A purely rational person would be quite tedious I think.
However, I would whole-heartedly agree that it is a good thing to question one's beliefs. I have found quite a bit of personal solace in becoming comfortable with the idea that I simply do not know and cannot know the answer to life's great mysteries.
In response to "science" vs "mythology", there are certainly things that we hold as cannonically true which pass for science now, but in the future will be looked upon with bemuse expressions of "oh how quaint". Humors were once determined to be a medical paradigm.. as in science. I don't think anyone would take that seriously now... except maybe a few sensitive new age types. So even that type of discussion fills me with doubt.
As far as the extinction of the human race goes.... well, I'm not particularly fond of the idea, but I suppose all species eventually go extinct. Why should we be an exception.
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If you want to think I'm stupid or a moron for being a Christian and believing in God..so be it. You have a right to your opinion as do I. I just don't call people names that have different beliefs than I do, or try to get them to believe as I do.
Hugs
Teresa
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Boo, I find it interesting that you declined to quote the times where you attacked me personally. If you would like to have an adult discussion of this topic, then I encourage it. However, if you resort to name-calling again, I will simply ignore you.
I find it interesting you declared atheists to be dangerous, unthinking, and stated "It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness" when I declared myself an atheist but Bailey's posts elicited nothing similar.
I provided the links for anyone to see -- but since you insist, here are my attacks:
Attack #1
on February 11, 2007, 04:17:37 PM
... I am a certified agnostic. I just can't find it within myself to be certain about something that you can't be sure of.... and I find people who are convinced they are right on this issue to be downright dangerous... and that's on both sides of the debate. OK next topic.
That is a rather broad brush labeling certified theists and atheists as "dangerous," dontcha think? I've been an atheist since adolescence but what someone else believes is her/his own business. As long as you don't try to convert me I will reciprocate fully.
As an atheist I have some issues of concern about U.S. society and how many major religions (or minor ones, for that matter) attempt to alter U.S. law based on religious doctrines inimical to major segments of society, like GLBTs, Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, etc. The U.S.A. was not founded as a Christian government even though most Americans were (are) Christians. Several major religions have long been a bane to GLBTs and still perpetuate the idea homosexuals/XXXXsexuals are mentally ill as well as pedophiles. As a gay atheist I am concerned about continued influence by these forces. As an agnostic you should be able to understand atheists prefer a more secular government, not less.
Sorry to hijack the thread but with a mind and memory span like mine it's miraculous I can finish a
Boo
Where is the attack in my message? Exactly what makes it an emotional response?
Attack #2
Emotional reaction by asking that all people's beliefs be considered, not just yours?
If you can't or don't want to civilly argue that's fine but please don't dismiss someone's reaction as "emotional" and imply your beliefs are right and mine are wrong. That sort of thinking is dangerous.
I have no more onus to prove there is no god any more than a theist has to prove there is. It's based on belief.
You're the most prejudiced agnostic I've ever encountered.
Boo
Attack #3
You're right that it's based on belief, which makes it oh so easy to believe with absolute certainty that you are correct. It's well known what happens to people who are completely certain in their own righteousness... they start off spouting things like "you're the most prejudiced ... blah blah blah... and end up with a gun in their hand just to make their point. Sorry, boo, but people who feel no need to examine their beliefs scare me.
puck,
Your bizarre associations and sweeping declarations remind me of a schizophrenic during a psychotic break.
It's "well known" anyone who holds a belief is self-righteous. Right. So you're self-righteous as much as anyone else, unless you have no beliefs. You're so omniscient you know I'm the kind of person to take up a gun to "make" my point, my beliefs have not been examined before coming to them, I just plucked them from thin air, and my kind of thinking scares you. Your belief, sitting on the fence, is obviously the only correct one. Your thinking, black or white, is correct.
You scare me.
Are you hiding an anencephalic cranium under that hat? Ha ha!! Funny joke!
Boo
By the last post I was sarcastic and nasty, I have no problem admitting it. You refused to respond with valid arguments, merely asserting I was "emotional," "dangerous," "proving my[puck's] point," without further explanation. You've done it again in your last response. The certainty of your stand and opinion is unshakable.
Normally I don't get ticked off about simple disagreements but your hubris with me and civil behavior to Bailey, who is in agreement with my belief, appears contradictory. By your standards he is far more dangerous in that he does proselytize. I clearly stated I don't care what anyone believes as long as I'm not forced or expected to believe it .
You are the one of the people you describe as "completely certain in their own righteousness."
Boo
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I am dangerous.
I bark.
and I can bite.
and I apply LOGIC where none exists currently when it comes to religion.
OOOOH.. I'm evil.
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If you want to think I'm stupid or a moron for being a Christian and believing in God..so be it. You have a right to your opinion as do I. I just don't call people names that have different beliefs than I do, or try to get them to believe as I do.
Hugs
Teresa
I do believe you are a moron. No, I do not mean that as flamebait™ but you said it. There is no proof and until you can provide such, god just doesn't exist no matter how much you want him to.
Have you not watched any of the videos I've posted?
Surely that would raise some questions in the devout?
I think religion and the belief in the mythology is intrisically damaging to our society, our health and our future. It is no longer my doom I worry about, but humanties.
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If you want to think I'm stupid or a moron for being a Christian and believing in God..so be it. You have a right to your opinion as do I.
Teresa,
Regardless of my beliefs every person has the right to her/his own beliefs as long as she/he doesn't try to force them on someone else. If someone is evangelical I don't care but once I state I'm not interested in further discussion I expect my wish to be respected. IOW, don't try to convert me to your beliefs once I ask you to stop and I won't try to convert you to mine.
When I make derogatory remarks about Christians I'm referring to those who believe the USA is a "Christian" country and expect everyone else to live based on their beliefs. Christians who believe their religion is the only "correct" one concern and offend me (anyone who thinks his/her religion is right scares me). As an atheist I don't believe in a deity so prefer my government to be completely free of religious influence (religious influence, that is -- if they want to battle poverty, HIV, cancer, hangnails, whatever, their voices are as valid as anyone's).
Boo
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well, that answer is simple boo...
you didn't provide clicky's refuting the delusion of god. I did.
From my original response I stated I don't care what others believe as long as I'm not expected to be bound by their religious beliefs. I have no need to post clickys because I'm not trying to convince anyone my belief is correct and theirs is wrong.
Smart-ass! (please excuse my emotional attack against you)
Boo
P.S. I agree with you about the need to remove religion as a social influence but also believe people need to come to the same conclusion on their own. It's often frustrating to live in a "Christian" society but debating religion is usually an exercise in futility. I'll be long dead before our society adopts similar views but that's life. I didn't think I'd live to see Bowers vs Hardwick overturned so at 51 I'm happy with that small step in the right direction.
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Boo, Puck, Dingo, (in no particular order)
It's Nurse Ratchet here with your chill pills. Line up boys, and I want to see you take them right here in front of me and I want to see under your tongues afterwards.
Get the picture?
Ann
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Why oh why can't I be the first chosen one?
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Boo, I still think the only point you are making is that you know how to copy and paste. You take things out of context, and you are so incredibly ardent about shouting my points down that I have a lot of trouble taking your points seriously, even when they are valid. I am not going to address your copious quoting etc etc etc. I think you have been out of line to me and you owe me an apology. If you chose not to do so, then fine. It's your right and your life.
Now, if you really want to know what I think...not that I think you do, but here goes:
I simply do not know if there is a god or not.
I take to heart the idea that many people who are convinced that they do know the answer to life's great mysteries become so attached to the idea that they are right that they become dangerous. The examples of this in history are legion and if you really want me to point you to sources of dangerous atheists, I don't have to look very hard. Dogma is a dangerous thing. I find myself emotionally siding with atheists most of the time, but I do not agree that it is appropriate to call people names because they believe something.
I have drawn the conclusion that it is impossible to know this. I have also drawn the conclusion that I could be wrong. Perhaps you feel this is fence-sitting, but for me it was a very difficult path to choose. My father is a Mormon and my mother is Jewish. (neat combo, eh - the sixties). Atheism had an appeal to me at one time, but I quickly came to the conclusion that most atheists were as dogmatic in their beliefs as Christians or the Sephardic family that is my mother's. My personal experience is that people spend most of their time shouting each other down on the topics of religion and not really listening. As soon as you say something, rather than asking for a clarification of an ambiguous statement, they start drawing their own fears of being wrong into it, and then "otherizing" the person enough to make statements which range from "you're an idiot" to "all jews should be exterminated" to "religion is the opiate of the masses".
I find religion to be absolutely fascinating. Understanding what people believe and why holds no end of interest to me. I read incessantly about any number of topics, but my personal library is heavily weighted with tomes of philosophy and the philosophy of religion. In a way, if you were to analyze this personality quirk, you might draw the conclusion that at some level I might still be searching for the proof I need of one thing to be true. That maybe I am not comfortable with my own certainty about uncertainty, so to speak. Perhaps you would be right.
I don't believe it is possible to prove there is no god. Someone on here said that this is a logical conundrum. Well, since you can prove the following negative statement that "five does not equal six" , it follows that there might be a proof out there that god does not exist. I have yet to see it. I also have yet to see even any proof at all that god really does exist. I just don't think it's within the realm of human capability to be right about this. (Please don't get me started on the cogito... really, do you think it's possible to prove god exists because you are playing with a ball of wax. to me that sounds more like an acid trip)
There are many many many books out which delve deeply into the causes of atrocity. (from 9-11, to the Holocaust, to collectivization, to the Armenian genocide, to the salem witch trial and on and on and on) Almost all of them, if not all of them, point to the process of "otherization", where people are dehumanized. It starts with "they are different from me" to "my belief is X, and all who believe otherwise are damned." Unless you inject doubt into a belief structure, this is the paramount immanent danger of dogma.
I very much enjoy discussion of these topics. But I don't particularly enjoy being called names. Any emotional reaction I have to such things is, in my opinion, unsurprising.
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Boo, Puck, Dingo, (in no particular order)
It's Nurse Ratchet here with your chill pills. Line up boys, and I want to see you take them right here in front of me and I want to see under your tongues afterwards.
Get the picture?
Ann
Sorry Ann, I was in the middle of writing my novel when you posted this. I prefer lemon. Cherry is disgusting.
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Boo, I still think the only point you are making is that you know how to copy and paste. You take things out of context, and you are so incredibly ardent about shouting my points down that I have a lot of trouble taking your points seriously, even when they are valid. I am not going to address your copious quoting etc etc etc. I think you have been out of line to me and you owe me an apology. If you chose not to do so, then fine. It's your right and your life.
Now, if you really want to know what I think...not that I think you do, but here goes:
No, puck, I don't care what you think about religion because it's not relevant. When we were actually discussing personal beliefs it would have been fine but the issue is why one atheist's statements are labeled emotional, dangerous, so certain in their beliefs... they'll take up a gun, and other pronouncements but another atheist's views, stated far more vocally, elicit polite chatter?
You insult me and expect an apology? Sorry for the offense but I was simply responding to your succinct smugness.
Again you dodge a real discussion by declaring I "take things out of context" even though I've now posted almost the entire exchange verbatim. First you complain I excluded your innocuous posts but when I post them that's too "copious" for you to respond to even though I've simply enumerated several points. I am so "ardent" you have trouble taking me seriously. I make a nasty joke about your brain and you expect me to apologize. Um, what's that biblical phrase?? "Let the person without sin cast the first stone" is close...
I have trouble taking you seriously, too. You continue to make unsupported pronouncements about me and then refuse to respond to direct quotes you asked for in the first place.
Boo
P.S. Ann, if this post is inappropriate (except for being off-topic) you'll have to identify the problems for me. My apologies in advance. I know I'm off-topic but you would also, I fear, disapprove if I created a new thread in Off Topic, am I right? I believe puck has made his last post in response and this will be my last response in this thread.
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I think it's interesting how 68.6% never go to church (except for funerals).
We're either Jews or heathens.
In my case, I'm lucky enough to be both. Well, part Jewish, anyway... but all heathen ;D
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because religion is trite and so 1000 years ago.
Really, I mean, you need a new regligious sense. Maybe something with mauve? It does go with everything.
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Boo,
Will you let it drop already?
Can't you two agree to disagree and leave it at that? For heaven's sake!
Ann
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Boo,
Will you let it drop already?
Yes, m'am. I'm sorry to cause you trouble.
Can't you two agree to disagree and leave it at that? For heaven's sake!
I don't disagree with puck's agnosticism, I disagree with his snide attitude. But I'm saying no more. Sorry.
Boo
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Can't you two agree to disagree and leave it at that? For heaven's sake!
and THAT is part of the indoctrination that people, however unwittingly, use to propagate the belief in a fantasy. God does not exist and heaven does not exist. Tim does exist though. I've seen him and I believe.
Perhaps you may not believe in the Tim, but I do. He can ban (smite) ANYONE! The Tim is generally nice, but I do not suggest rilling him up. Obey and Respect the Tim.... and Ann... cuz she'z a cranky angel... and she has less patience for us heathens.
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Well spotted Dingo, good boy. A little irony never gets past you, does it!
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Well spotted Dingo, good boy. A little irony never gets past you, does it!
Ann, I think you would be a prime candidate for joining aupointillimitism... you should really check it out. I'm writing our hymnal... well... it's pretty much just the Cramps album "Bad Music for Bad People."
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Ann, I think you would be a prime candidate for joining aupointillimitism... you should really check it out. I'm writing our hymnal... well... it's pretty much just the Cramps album "Bad Music for Bad People."
Impertinent youngster. I founded my own cult when you were still just a gleam in your daddy's eye.
Ann
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but sadly, you are missing a key religious icon to bow down before and worship.
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Impertinent youngster. I founded my own cult when you were still just a gleam in your daddy's eye.
Ann
For a minute, I was about to sneer and say, "how old could you be?"
Hmph.
I now realize it was quite possible that you could have formed a cult at the tender age of 19 or 20.
And Dingo's right... with aupointillimitism, you get me AND Parker Posey. Plus beer.
Join us. Join us.
If not, I'll find out where you live and send people by to tell you the "Mediocre News" of aupointillimitism (it's not good news... but not entirely bad, either) every day. Like Mormons. Except more annoying.
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I was an impertinent youth of thirteen, the magikal number.
Thank you, but I'll have to decline your invitation to join your cult. I don't want to have to smite myself. (again)
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Survival, as a species, dictates that we renounce such outlandish delusions based on fantasy. That's a pretty damn good explanation to me.
So, you support the idea that survival as a species dictates renunciation of homosexuality and that "God Hates Fags?"
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fondeveau, knock it off, you're doing nothing but flaimebaiting. This is not what your orginal thread started out to be.
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Fondeveau, I am going to question your response here. The assumptions underlying the statement "man has failed to share" are quite distressing to me:
1. god made man. man failed. so god failed?
2. or maybe god made man with free will. why? so man can create situations which allow things like starvation? why worship such a cruel thing?
3. bad things are caused by man. only good things can be attributed to god. in fact, both Augustine and Jean Cauvin, when analyzing the same questions came to the ultimate puritannical conclusion that man is inherently evil, and originated some of the doctrines of original Sin.
In short, while I really can't say that I believe in God, or not... because I don't know, I find your explanation to be wholly dissatisfying, both from the standpoint of someone who might believe, or from someone looking at it from a scientific point of view.
This is not the first time questions have been posed which ask why a god of infinite goodness can allow bad things to happen. But this is not the response that I usually see which is the most satisfactory. Usually you see things like, "god allows people to suffer in order to make them grow, in order to teach, etc" This also opens up a whole can of worms, but blaming starvation on mankind's failure to share implies, to me, a huge failure in the entire Christian eschatology.
I respect your right to believe what you believe. But I find this explanation to be, frankly, inhumane.
I really don't what your exact point is unless it is "blaming starvation on mankind's failure to share implies, to me, a huge failure in the entire Christian eschatology", so I'm gonna ramble through thoughts.
Look at the story of the loaves and fishes. From a scientific viewpoint, Jesus did not have some type of copy machine or whatever that machine is on Star Trek that magically makes food appear. And, its unlikely that he had enough fish and bread to feed the masses hidden up his sleeve. Could it be that those who had more shared with those had little or none and thus, the miracle: people caring for each other. I don't think you have to look much farther than the millions of fat people running around America to realize that if they shared with those in Africa, then no one would starve? Same argument works for for many things such as national defense vs. medical care, etc.
But, your premise of "God made man, man failed, therefore, God failed" is incorrect as it presumes God made man perfect. In his image, but not perfect. I think "God made man, man failed, man failed God, his fellow man and himself" might be more accurate as rarely does someone "create" situations like starvation. The sin would be that of omission, failing to share, rather than commission, stealing from the lips of the starving poor. Either way the cruelty of starvation isn't God's fault, but man's. God has provided plenty. It would be God's fault to create man and NOT have created food or water.
So, is God at "fault" for making man less than perfect and with free will? From here, I suppose we could write books as many have.
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fondeveau, knock it off, you're doing nothing but flaimebaiting. This is not what you orginal thread started out to be.
Well, the thread does ramble, but, no, I'm not flamebaiting. Survival of the species is an extreme card to play. I heard it recently in support of marriage as the one man, one woman thing. It didn't fly with me. Somehow, I thought that heterosexuality would stll manage to survive, thus assuring a new generation of both heteros and homos and bisexuals and transgendered and whatever other variations there are.
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Impertinent youngster. I founded my own cult when you were still just a gleam in your daddy's eye.
Ann
He was a gleam in his MOTHER'S eye. And before that, daddy's little squirt....
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and THAT is part of the indoctrination that people, however unwittingly, use to propagate the belief in a fantasy. God does not exist and heaven does not exist. Tim does exist though. I've seen him and I believe.
I've never seen electricity, but I believe it exists. I have faith that when I plug in my toaster, it will work. At some levels, these phenomenom are subject to scientific proofs. Man's knowledge of such, however vast, is yet, incomplete. Some speculate that when you get right down to it, you will find God, that is, you will understand how the world works. Regardless, I've never seen Tim, but still believe he exists.
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fondeveau, knock it off, you're doing nothing but flaimebaiting. This is not what you orginal thread started out to be.
And, with that, yes, I'm off to church this Sunday morning where I will play the pipe organ, sing in the choir, then zone out for the sermon. Somehow, I find our new minister less than inspiring. But, maybe, just maybe, I will feel His Presence. With some concentration, I will then go out into the world and serve others throughout the week.
Despite the heinous examples set by televangelists and lack of scientific proofs, I still believe that the something that inspires and challenges me to seek justice and do mercy is worthy of pursuit. So, I would simply encourage others to seek that better world for themselves and their neighbor, regardless of the path chosen.
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For a minute, I was about to sneer and say, "how old could you be?"
Hmph.
I now realize it was quite possible that you could have formed a cult at the tender age of 19 or 20.
And Dingo's right... with aupointillimitism, you get me AND Parker Posey. Plus beer.
Join us. Join us.
If not, I'll find out where you live and send people by to tell you the "Mediocre News" of aupointillimitism (it's not good news... but not entirely bad, either) every day. Like Mormons. Except more annoying.
Like Cartman on Southpark, I suddenly feel like "Getting down on my knees and start pleasing..." Maybe not Parker, but Aupoint...hmm....
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You are giving the mods a good reason to lock this thread and I really can't find a reason for them not to.
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Me? And that reason would be?
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Just reflecting a bit here. HIV+ people have faith. I'm not necessarily speaking of religious faith, but faith in general. Faith in the doctor's advice. Faith in meds or no meds. Faith in the experiences of others. And the HIV+ community has its own brand of televangelists in the form of denialists and snake oil salesmen. And, faith, like HIV+, is a road, a journey with twists and turns. Surprisingly, these forums act much a like church with mutual support for its members and even non-members, outreach programs, education programs, fellowship, etc. And, like a church, it has its share of conflict/disagreement. The nice thing is that no matter who you are or where you are the journey, you are, indeed, welcome here.
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I really don't what your exact point is unless it is "blaming starvation on mankind's failure to share implies, to me, a huge failure in the entire Christian eschatology", so I'm gonna ramble through thoughts.
Look at the story of the loaves and fishes. From a scientific viewpoint, Jesus did not have some type of copy machine or whatever that machine is on Star Trek that magically makes food appear. And, its unlikely that he had enough fish and bread to feed the masses hidden up his sleeve. Could it be that those who had more shared with those had little or none and thus, the miracle: people caring for each other. I don't think you have to look much farther than the millions of fat people running around America to realize that if they shared with those in Africa, then no one would starve? Same argument works for for many things such as national defense vs. medical care, etc.
But, your premise of "God made man, man failed, therefore, God failed" is incorrect as it presumes God made man perfect. In his image, but not perfect. I think "God made man, man failed, man failed God, his fellow man and himself" might be more accurate as rarely does someone "create" situations like starvation. The sin would be that of omission, failing to share, rather than commission, stealing from the lips of the starving poor. Either way the cruelty of starvation isn't God's fault, but man's. God has provided plenty. It would be God's fault to create man and NOT have created food or water.
So, is God at "fault" for making man less than perfect and with free will? From here, I suppose we could write books as many have.
Yes, very true. I like your argument that God has provided plenty. It really does bring up the whole free will vs predestination argument. Unfortunately, fondeveau, the doctrine of christianity has preceeded your attractive and compassionate point of view with many tomes of material which set up expectations like "god is infallible" etc. This brings up the point, of "which christianity do I believe" and "if there can be so many, how can only one be right.". I think this confuses many people and causes a lot of us to treat christianity as an object of scorn.
I like your take on your beliefs and I believe you to be enlightened and comfortable with who you are. I don't think it would serve any purpose here to get into a deep and attackable conversation about the nature of free will or the nature of creation. But, I do enjoy the conversation. Peace to you.
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:o
Has it been a week already, since this was posted. Damn, that was a fast week. Didn't make it to church today either. :)
Ray
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Just reflecting a bit here. HIV+ people have faith. I'm not necessarily speaking of religious faith, but faith in general. Faith in the doctor's advice. Faith in meds or no meds. Faith in the experiences of others.
I don't find that a useful analogy, no offense. There's a difference between things back with scientific research and measurable evidence of a sort, and faith in something that cannot be proven.
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http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
You might as well take the test and see if it is worth the bother believing. According to the test my results confirm that when I die I will be banished to the Second Level of Hell. However, I will be in good company as Cleopatra and Helen of Troy share my same fate.....PARTAY!!!!!
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i believe in entropy, this universe is running itself down. Everything goes to hell, sooner or later
i believe the spirit is inviolable, and this universe is a prison - if one does not escape, the spirit may become trapped in the cold hard cinder than this universe may cool down to in untold billions of years. Just have to remember.....remember.... (tikkun)
I know I have had moments outside of my body, tripping gordian wormholes wrapped round laws unique to this universe, never finding the way out.
seeing, nonetheless, the ancient mindless engine which traps us here
(this is all 2000+ year old gnostic stuff)
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That's all cool...but take the hell-o-meter test provided...we might end up roomies.
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
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Surprise! I'm Lustful, and going to the Second Level. Sounds like getting felt up at Six Flags!
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It appears I'm doomed to the 7th level of hell...What fun it will be. Apparently I'm going to be turned into a tree
...Corey
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i made it to the 7th level...is that good?
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Surprise! I'm Lustful, and going to the Second Level. Sounds like getting felt up at Six Flags!
Cool...I'm trying to organize a Second Level of Hell block party and I will need to know how many "hot" wings to order. See ya in etenity. :-*
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I'll organize a sling party!
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Don't you do that already every night?
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not since I left Ft Lauderdale...
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I made it to the 7th level but I'm gonna take the test again to see if I can get to 9.
Boo
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I made it to the 7th level but I'm gonna take the test again to see if I can get to 9.
Boo
I'm sure you can think of something to improve...er, lower your score. Mardi Gras opens a major window of opportunity.
So far it's Satan 5....God 0
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I don't take internet based tests. They're always so easy to manipulate.
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I don't take internet based tests. They're always so easy to manipulate.
No need, you are at least a Second Level of Hell candidate...manipulation a prime indicator. Welcome!
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we're doomed...
[attachment deleted by admin]
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No need, you are at least a Second Level of Hell candidate...manipulation a prime indicator. Welcome!
The way I look at it, the more manipulative you are the less likely you are to be manipulated. It's just Darwin at work really. But Darwin is a vast Jewish Pharissee conspiracy, or so some Republican in Georgia said so earlier this week.
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I read that about the Rethuglican from Ga....
its damn scary how many flat-worlders there still are out there...
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Not just flat in this guy's case. He also though that the earth didn't even rotate around the sun.
http://fixedearth.com/
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7th ;D
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i just saw that website yesterday, can't decide if its all BS or what!
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i just saw that website yesterday, can't decide if its all BS or what!
But the web design is so very artful!
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probably frontpage....
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i was right!
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 6.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<title>The Earth Is Not Moving</title>
<meta name="postinfo" content="/scripts/postinfo.asp">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name="DESCRIPTION" content="The belief that the earth turns on an “axis” daily and orbits the sun annually is a carefully crafted Bible-bashing lie. All facts show a stationary earth">
<meta name="KEYWORDS" content="Copernicanism, geocentrism, mathematics, Einstein, Galileo, Newton ">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<title>The Earth Is Not Moving</title>
<meta name="Microsoft Border" content="none">
</head>
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Not just flat in this guy's case. He also though that the earth didn't even rotate around the sun.
http://fixedearth.com/
Finally, someone who speaks the truth!! Who can disagree with such persuasive arguments as these:
"Indeed, the diligent reader will be astonished at the level of demonstrable hi-tech fraud, baseless assumptions, occult mathematics, etc.,--all part of a religious conspiracy!--that has been at work over many centuries implanting the incredible evolution myth about the origin of the Universe, the Earth, and Mankind.
On this web page the Bible is not used to prove anything scientific. Instead, the scientific facts--along with historical and religious facts-- prove the Bible to be precisely what it claims to be, namely, the infallible Word of God."
Bless you, philly, for showing us the way and the light!!
Rev. Boo
P.S. FrontPage is the HTML editor god uses so prepare to be smitten he who mocks FrontPage!!
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dreamweaver is indeed the work of the devil...
i use about 10% of it, like my brain
and php is the language of demons
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I don't understand why people can't just say that evolution is God's work. Seems kind of easy. Even the Vatican does this now.
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dreamweaver is indeed the work of the devil...
Dreamweaver is an electron microscope when all I need is a magnifying glass. My skills are so old I can still use notepad.
and php is the language of demons
You write scripts? All I can do is use PHPFormMagic (or something like that). I gave perl a spin a few years ago but realized my heart just isn't in coding -- it's in telling someone else what needs to be done...
Boo
P.S. I did not go to church today (see, now my post isn't 100% OT)
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many people believe the world to be less than 10,000 years old
John McCain is looking for their votes currently
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I gave perl a spin a few years ago but realized my heart just isn't in coding -- it's in telling someone else what needs to be done...
Don't try it. I saw your skill earlier in this thread with multiple nested quotes.
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Best all-around free and easy HTML editor is Netscape Composer (mainly cuz it has nothing to do with Frontpage Extensions)
I can't write a lick of PHP, i just install it and tweak some lines of code!
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Thank goodness for iWeb!
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Don't try it. I saw your skill earlier in this thread with multiple nested quotes.
Why, you nasty XXXX!! FOAD!
Because you're too lazy to read a brilliantly comprehensive and detailed analysis isn't my fault. I know for a fact several professors at Yale are using those posts as examples of cogent logic and incontrovertible argument.
And also at Yale School of Divinity, so this post isn't too off-topic either...
Boo
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Wait a minute. Yale professors are ripping us off in addiction Hollywood glitterati? What's next?
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Wait a minute. Yale professors are ripping us off in addiction Hollywood glitterati? What's next?
You didn't know Tarantino stole the whole porno thread and is using it as the script for his next movie?
Wake up and smell the coffee cake!
Boo
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I'm in the 6th Level. Heretics.
Who wants to visit me in my timeshare on the Lake of Fire?
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I'm in the 6th Level. Heretics.
6th level?? What a sissy, Ms. Thing!!
Mean Auntie Boo
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6th level?? What a sissy, Ms. Thing!!
Well, I'm sooooo sorry that I'm not on the burning sand with the rest of you fags, but some of us are punished for our philosophies rather than our sexuality.
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I only do Villa d’Este on Lake Como! Sorry.
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I'm in the 6th Level. Heretics.
Who wants to visit me in my timeshare on the Lake of Fire?
Geeeeeeeze...can't you even get damnation right?
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Geeeeeeeze...can't you even get damnation right?
It would appear that I can't... le sigh.
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(http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/innocent/innocent0001.gif)
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(http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/innocent/innocent0001.gif)
Go to your closet and pray!
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(http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/innocent/innocent0001.gif)
so cute, Lwood. so you. so cute.
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Yes, very true. I like your argument that God has provided plenty. It really does bring up the whole free will vs predestination argument. Unfortunately, fondeveau, the doctrine of christianity has preceeded your attractive and compassionate point of view with many tomes of material which set up expectations like "god is infallible" etc. This brings up the point, of "which christianity do I believe" and "if there can be so many, how can only one be right.". I think this confuses many people and causes a lot of us to treat christianity as an object of scorn.
I like your take on your beliefs and I believe you to be enlightened and comfortable with who you are. I don't think it would serve any purpose here to get into a deep and attackable conversation about the nature of free will or the nature of creation. But, I do enjoy the conversation. Peace to you.
Definitely a conversation that would never end. But, while Christianity is 2000 years old, its thinking should not be. Man's knowledge and perspectives change with time. There is actually quite a debate as to whether "Jesus is the Only Way"; Which to believe? Which of the 24,000 denominations in the US alone...if any....Good luck! I think you really hit the nail on the head that some Christians believe they must right and other non-Christians believe they must be wrong.
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:o
Has it been a week already, since this was posted. Damn, that was a fast week. Didn't make it to church today either. :)
Ray
MARDI GRAS this week. Lent starts with Ash Wednesday. Another opportunity for you to miss? LOL
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There is actually quite a debate as to whether "Jesus is the Only Way"; Which to believe?
Jesus himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.
The devil can quote Scripture for his own purposes.
But it would seem like He settled it for Christians Himself with that.
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http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv
You might as well take the test and see if it is worth the bother believing. According to the test my results confirm that when I die I will be banished to the Second Level of Hell. However, I will be in good company as Cleopatra and Helen of Troy share my same fate.....PARTAY!!!!!
There are a bunch of really fun quizzes at http://www.landoverbaptist.org. I will try this one, too and see where I end up.
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Purgatory
You have escaped damnation and made it to Purgatory, a place where the dew of repentance washes off the stain of sin and girds the spirit with humility. Through contrition, confession, and satisfaction by works of righteousness, you must make your way up the mountain. As the sins are cleansed from your soul, you will be illuminated by the Sun of Divine Grace, and you will join other souls, smiling and happy, upon the summit of this mountain. Before long you will know the joys of Paradise as you ascend to the ethereal realm of Heaven.
See, I do try..its all those darned questions about sex with men...grrrr!
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Purgatory
You have escaped damnation and made it to Purgatory, a place where the dew of repentance washes off the stain of sin and girds the spirit with humility. Through contrition, confession, and satisfaction by works of righteousness, you must make your way up the mountain. As the sins are cleansed from your soul, you will be illuminated by the Sun of Divine Grace, and you will join other souls, smiling and happy, upon the summit of this mountain. Before long you will know the joys of Paradise as you ascend to the ethereal realm of Heaven.
See, I do try..its all those darned questions about sex with men...grrrr!
Couple more blow jobs and you will be just another one of Satan's little helpers. Going down...first floor ladies lingerie... next stop eternal hellfire.
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Couple more blow jobs and you will be just another one of Satan's little helpers. Going down...first floor ladies lingerie... next stop eternal hellfire.
Mr. Humphries, are you free?
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Mr. Humphries, are you free?
I'm not free Captain Peacock...but I am reasonable. ;)
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Jesus himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.
The devil can quote Scripture for his own purposes.
But it would seem like He settled it for Christians Himself with that.
Yes, but, of course, Scripture says so much more. I'm not up on the whole debate, but it revolves a bit around the verse in Matthew 7:2 - "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Historically, this verse has been treated as dealing with an almost karmic response to the action of the individual. But, currently the debate has shifted a bit.
The debate is whether a Jew, a Moslem, etc. would be judged by "Christian" standards - in other words, lacking acceptance of Jesus, straight to Hell. Clearly, not - they would be judged by the way that they judge. The Jew by whether he was a good Jew, the Moslem by the standard of the good Moslem. How about non-believers? Hmm...the good aupointillimitist by Benj? LOL. And somewhere the Bible speaks of other covenants and messages for God's other children. The LDS glom on to this for proof or at least the possibility of divine inspiration for the Book of Mormon.
So, other covenants, all of which would be presumptively valid for those in the covenant, but not for those without, may exist. Thus, the exploration of the possibility that while Jesus is the only way for many, he may not be the only way for all.
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Interesting.
But I wonder if that's more a warning against hypocrisy than anything else.
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Why, you nasty XXXX!! FOAD!
Because you're too lazy to read a brilliantly comprehensive and detailed analysis isn't my fault. I know for a fact several professors at Yale are using those posts as examples of cogent logic and incontrovertible argument.
And also at Yale School of Divinity, so this post isn't too off-topic either...
Boo
I have heard it said that St. Paul would have been much more careful in writing his epistles had he known they would survive and be used as the canon. In much the same way, I will have to be careful to delete my email and wipe the hard disk clean before I die!
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Interesting.
But I wonder if that's more a warning against hypocrisy than anything else.
I worked all day after church and brought home more work to do late into the night. So, you will have to more explicit as I am feeling dense and fatigued.
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I have heard it said that St. Paul would have been much more careful in writing his epistles had he known they would survive and be used as the canon. In much the same way, I will have to be careful to delete my email and wipe the hard disk clean before I die!
Eddie Izzard!
And St. Paul, he wrote letters, didn’t he? “St. Paul’s Letter to the Corinthians.” Always writing to the Corinthians. “St. Paul’s letter to the Corinthians – Chapter 1 – Verses 1 to 53. Dear Corinthians, as you can tell from my preamble, it’s gonna be quite a long letter. Here we go: Don’t do bad things, only do good things. Always treat your neighbour like someone who lives near to you. Never put a sock in a toaster. Never put jam on a magnet. Never throw your Granny in a bag. Never suck all the juice out of a vampire. Never lean over on Tuesday…” (takes drag out of joint) “Lots of other things, but I gotta go and have a Mars bar now. Love, Paul (Saint).”
Is that how he wrote his name? “Paul (Saint). B.A. honours.” Yeah, so he wrote this – “All right, that’s the end of the letter…” (mimes folding the letter, putting it into an envelope and licking it close) “The Corinthians… Corinth.” (mimes sending the letter out like a paper plane)
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I attend a unity church, I find it to be totally afirming and more spiritual than religious. The service feeds my soul and they have great options for personal development. Also a fabulous bookstore. I have a support sytem there that feeds me and I look forward to Sunday mornings. This week I bought the Movie The Secret at the bookstore, a great movie I suggest it fully.
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I didn't want to take part of this thread 'cause I suppose many people on here know my views about religion i.e. it is a plague, but I thought I'd send you guys a little gift to take to church with you...!
Lookin' good for Jesus
http://www.pulpshop.co.uk/Catalogue.asp?objecttradersearch=1&GroupID=1041 (http://www.pulpshop.co.uk/Catalogue.asp?objecttradersearch=1&GroupID=1041)
Val
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P.S.Only the English could invent such a pleasantly humourous thing such as this! ::)
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To be honest, I'm not hung up on church. I was raised UBER-Southern Baptist and went about 3 times a week. I realized it was all highly suspect by the time I was 13 or so but just played along. They didn't gay bash much back in the 70's though so I wasn't horribly tormented... that all started in the mid 80's IIRC. Once I went to college I *NEVER* went to church, and my parents stopped asking me if I went after my freshman year. I never lied.
I always go to church with my mother now when I visit home, but it's Episcopal and I swear the pastor is a big ole queen. Nice man, and he gives me communion even though he knows I suck cock and has AIDS (egads... my mother told him!!! they're very close and I guess my mother needed some spiritual guidance when I told her years ago about my health.)
Too each his own... if it give you comfort then who am I to say anything.
My basic problem is intellectual -- religion seems to me to be an intrinsic need of all CIVILIZED man. Look at ANY civilized culture throughout antiquity. The Catholics had to destroy the Azteca religion because they got in a theological discussion with them and found out they weren't stupid barbarians, but addressed most likely many of he same questions... basically it's just the self-centered need of man to feel more important than an insect and ask "WHERE DO I COME FROM... WHERE WILL I GO"
Well, we probably just "are" and we probably just go in the dirt, like every other animal. This does not mean we can't be moral people. Religion does not own morality.
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I didn't want to take part of this thread 'cause I suppose many people on here know my views about religion i.e. it is a plague, but I thought I'd send you guys a little gift to take to church with you...!
Lookin' good for Jesus
http://www.pulpshop.co.uk/Catalogue.asp?objecttradersearch=1&GroupID=1041 (http://www.pulpshop.co.uk/Catalogue.asp?objecttradersearch=1&GroupID=1041)
Val
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P.S.Only the English could invent such a pleasantly humourous thing such as this! ::)
This stuff is pretty kewl too. I want the thong.
http://www.cafepress.com/landoverbaptist
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Well, we probably just "are" and we probably just go in the dirt, like every other animal. This does not mean we can't be moral people. Religion does not own morality.
Well said, philly! I concur on all points.
Boo,
your new mutual-ego-masturbation pal! Your turn!
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Second level of hell, here.
Order more buffalo wings and lots of Glenlevit.
HUGGLES,
Mark
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I've been going thru hell for some time now, what's a little fire?
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Quote from Philly:
Nice man, and he gives me communion even though he knows I suck cock and has AIDS (egads... my mother told him!!! they're very close and I guess my mother needed some spiritual guidance when I told her years ago about my health.)
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Don't most women "suck cocks" and some have AIDS as well? What's wrong with sucking cocks and communion? Having AIDS and communion? And who ever said that only women are supposed to "suck cocks?" Ted Haggard, perhaps? Just asking...!
Val
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Edit to add "Don't most priests suck cocks as well?"
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What's wrong with sucking cocks and communion? Having AIDS and communion? And who ever said that only women are supposed to "suck cocks?" Ted Haggard, perhaps? Just asking...!
Val
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Edit to add "Don't most priests suck cocks as well?"
No cocksucking at least one hour prior to communion and try not to block the entrances to the sanctuary or the aisles.
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... Don't most women "suck cocks" and some have AIDS as well? What's wrong with sucking cocks and communion? Having AIDS and communion? ...
Val,
What a good Christian wife does in obeying her husband, the lord and master, is between them. It is an incontrovertible sin for a man to orally touch another man's penile organ (or organelle in some cases). God will not let philly into heaven even if some Episcopalian Heretic gives him communion.
Father Boo
P.S. As often happens I am reminded of something from my childhood by mention of Episcopalians. When my twin brother and I were in elementary school the first time we had to fill out a form asking for religion we both wrote "none." We told my mother and, being the early 60s, less than a full decade after McCarthyism purged the country of commies, she freaked. She told us to write "Episcopalian" whenever filling out another form. We're talking first grade here. The next time I had to fill out a form I couldn't even remember the word much less spell it so I wrote "none" and did so my entire life.
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Episcopalian's are a bunch of pussies....Catholics that just can't cut it. :P
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Val,
What a good Christian wife does in obeying her husband, the lord and master, is between them. It is an incontrovertible sin for a man to orally touch another man's penile organ (or organelle in some cases). God will not let philly into heaven even if some Episcopalian Heretic gives him communion.
Father Boo
No good Christian wife would do that!
Creation Science teaches us that a thousand years to human beings is like a light burp to the Lord. So, it isn't any wonder that God is just now finding out that His most sinful creatures (humans) have become very keen on slithering their tongues like a serpent of Satan into disgusting places on other folks' bodies that they can't reach on their own. Creation Scientists are beginning to believe that the talk around the water coolers in Heaven is that God's creatures on Earth are using their mouths for a lot more than simply eating food and preaching the Gospel.
Recent studies in Creation Science show us that oral sex can be extremely dangerous! We know this to be a fact. For those of you young people who have not yet been to Bible College, and are reading this article, "oral sex," means the placement of a hoochie or a tallywhacker into a human mouth. Creation research indicates that Satan is using the human tongue to infiltrate the soul by way of the vagina, anus, and hole in the tip of the penis (enormous penises have bigger holes, allowing for a greater number of demons to gain entrance, which is why black men commit so much crime). Creation Scientists have not yet determined exactly how thousands of tiny little demons extract themselves from human semen and vaginal excretions, but they are convinced that the human tongue is being used as their makeshift nest. "It is on the palette where the devil's minions spawn and reproduce like a swarms of tiny red maggots." says Landover Baptist Creation Scientist, Dr. Jonathan Edwards. "Once enough of them are bred, an army is assembled. They exit the nesting area and enter the throat. It is at this point, you are infected, and the battle for your soul begins."
Creation research on oral sex was started about a year ago when Pastor Horace Wilkins of Freehold, Iowa, through means his son is now reconciled with, once acquired some of his boy's own semen in the middle of the night, and used a tongue-depressor and a large eye-dropper to splash torrents of the gooey liquid down a bullfrog's gullet. The frog died instantly. As a follow up experiment, Creation Scientist, Dr. Jonathan Edwards tried the same thing on a cat, using a sample of coagulated secretions he found inside of his mother's vagina. The pussy died within fifteen minutes. Our researchers have come a long way since those first two experiments, but these results alone should be enough to raise the hair on the back of your neck and make you think twice about committing oral sex. Oral sex is like playing Russian roulette, but instead of holding a steel gun to your head, you are placing a gun made of skin into your mouth.
For about two thousand years now, married Christian couples didn't think twice about embracing the luxury afforded them in the 13th Chapter of Hebrews, verse 4 ("Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled"), as a free ticket to act like a pair of coked-up San Fernando Valley porn stars whenever they jumped in bed together. Although the Bible clearly gives married couples a license to male on female sodomy, the freedom to bring whips, French maid outfits, clippers, scat play, and in dozens of cases - outright murder!* into the wedding bed, we are beginning to understand, through the miracle of Creation Science that the Lord feels a need to draw the line somewhere. At Landover Baptist, we are honored to be on the cutting edge of Christendom by openly discouraging oral gratification, even among married couples!
Christian young people today are just as eager as their ancestors were to partake in the Bible-based sexual revolution that the Apostle Paul affords us in his "if you're married you can be as freaky as you want" quip from Hebrews, but it just might be because of countless generations of pre-marital fornicating recklessness that the good Lord saw fit to poison oral pleasure. The talk outside the prayer closets in Bible Colleges across this country used to be, "if you don't put it in, it ain't no sin." We've all been outside our fair share of prayer closets in our lives, feeling the blood racing, the pulse pounding - believing that we could do anything we wanted but, "it," to that cute little Elementary Education major with the heavenly ankles. Lord knows, most of us are so skilled by the time we get out of Bible college that we can flip flop a music hall recital nook into a rectal depository and without batting our eyes turn the same den of iniquity into an emergency prayer closet to suit the Lord's will. Well, thanks to modern breakthroughs in Creation Science, we are beginning to understand just a little bit more about what we call, the chemistry of the Lord's will. To put it quite frankly, Creation Science is teaching us that our loving God in Heaven won't think twice about giving Satan permission to assemble a swarm of tiny little soul eating demons on the tip of your tongue for having oral sex! Yes! Even if you are married! So, unwed saved young people, if you value your lives, you need to stop fooling around RIGHT NOW! As True Christians™, it is our sworn duty to do everything in our power to prevent the Lord from getting irritated. So, young ladies need to wipe the semen from their chins and get right with the Lord! And young men, the only crack your nose needs to be in is the open crack of the Holy Bible!
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Fondeveau,
That's it! With this article you've convinced me to adhere to this church:
http://www.uscobm.com/ministers.asp (http://www.uscobm.com/ministers.asp)
I am still laughing!
Val
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Quote from Philly:
Nice man, and he gives me communion even though he knows I suck cock and has AIDS (egads... my mother told him!!! they're very close and I guess my mother needed some spiritual guidance when I told her years ago about my health.)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Don't most women "suck cocks" and some have AIDS as well? What's wrong with sucking cocks and communion? Having AIDS and communion? And who ever said that only women are supposed to "suck cocks?" Ted Haggard, perhaps? Just asking...!
Val
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Edit to add "Don't most priests suck cocks as well?"
Yes, but I lay with other men AND EAT SHRIMP.
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Fondeveau,
That's it! With this article you've convinced me to adhere to this church:
http://www.uscobm.com/ministers.asp (http://www.uscobm.com/ministers.asp)
I am still laughing!
Val
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Ugh, I won't even get my ears pierced. I feel getting the blood work drawn so often is mutilation enough. Freaky that church, but brings up many interesting ways in which people worship God or their choice of deity.
Cain and Abel both sacrifice to God, but God refuses Cain's sacrifice. Why did God refuse? Because it wasn't what God wanted. This, of course, leads to Cain killing Abel in a jealous rage. Years later, Paul writes some mysterious lines in his letters which eventually get translated into English as homosexual. Modern thought believes that Paul was telling early Christians that God did not wish to be worshipped in a way that pagans commonly worshipped: by paying a visit to a temple prostitute (whether male or female).
Sexual ecstasy seems to be the heighth of religious zeal experienced by many ("F*ck me, Jesus. Oh, God, I'm cumming!") And I sure can appreciate that, but all that mutilation - yuck!
Edited to Add: But, Val, I'm so glad my efforts have paid off with your conversion - post pics soon!
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Cain and Abel both sacrifice to God, but God refuses Cain's sacrifice. Why did God refuse? Because it wasn't what God wanted.
God is a ravenous carnivore who finds vegetarians to be pussies.
Again... the Devil can quote Scripture. ::)
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Here's a hot one for you, aupoint!
Ezekiel 23:20 - There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
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Here's a hot one for you, aupoint!
Ezekiel 23:20 - There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
He was prophecizing about me.
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Ash Wednesday Services this evening - among the meditations, I thought of aupoint when we were asked to "fast from judging and feast upon seeing the Christ within [aupoint]" I wondered whether Christ was a top...
And yet, later, after the Imposition of Ashes, I thought that whatever hot dark-haired french/jew sits on my face will get an ashen cross tattooed on his heinie....
Oh, the temptations!
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And yet, later, after the Imposition of Ashes, I thought that whatever hot dark-haired french/jew sits on my face will get an ashen cross tattooed on his heinie....
OK... I just got a mental image of that.
It's way, way too funny!
Happy Lent! ;)
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Tee Hee
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I don't find that a useful analogy, no offense. There's a difference between things back with scientific research and measurable evidence of a sort, and faith in something that cannot be proven.
The less science the more faith of a sort?
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Fondeveau... every day is Ass Wednesday in aupointillimitism.
That said, that might be the best poster ev-ar. ;D
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That explains why I dreamt that I fucked you up the ass really hard last night.
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That explains why I dreamt that I fucked you up the ass really hard last night.
Really? I'm intrigued and flattered.
Details, please.
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Really? I'm intrigued and flattered.
Details, please.
It was in the bathroom of a train. That's all I remember.
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It was in the bathroom of a train. That's all I remember.
Wow. Me likey!
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Really? I'm intrigued and flattered.
Details, please.
It was in the bathroom of a train. That's all I remember.
What are two self-confessed total bottoms going to do on a train or anywhere else? Granted it was a dream and therefore fantasy but in reality, who'd do whom? I thought you both got flaccid on top...
Boo