POZ Community Forums
Meds, Mind, Body & Benefits => Nutrition & HIV => Topic started by: hades01 on December 28, 2010, 03:34:07 pm
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Hi everyone,
Hope you all had a great Christmas and wish you a happy new year.
I have read so many articles about coconut oil and its content of lauric acid. When you consume coconut oil, its Lauric Acid transforms into a substance called Monolaurin that can strengthen the immune system and fight various diseases and viruses. Does anyone has any experiences or advice to add? I read it helps in some cases to lower HIV viral load.
I appreciate in advance.
Thanks
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http://www.truehealth.org/ahealn14.html
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when google isn't being friendly enough to you ;)
try using the search function here and you'll find all sorts of threads about it
Coconut oil and HIV http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=33602.0
Anyone heard of Coconut Oil as a treatment http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=15379.0
Virgin Coconut Oil http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=891.0
I'm sure Ann won't mind me re-posting the most important comment about the subject, especially after you posted that link:
I just want to make clear the fact that coconut oil is NOT a cure for hiv. There is no cure for hiv at this time, no matter how much some people might want you to buy coconut oil. There may or may not be some health benefits to coconut oil, but it will NOT cure hiv.
Ann
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Thank you!!!
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I love to rub it on my tummy. :)
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Coconut is not a cure, but it may be helpful.
There are many studies, not all funded by the coconut producers, that show that coconut has benefits for viruses and fungus.
Since my partner converted a few months ago, he has had a bad fungus issue and candida.
Daily doses of Fluconazol keep it down but it won't go away.
He even has fungus on his face and head along with athlete's foot......
He is not on meds as he has just converted and we want to see how his body is going to rebound. Presently his CD4s are at 437 and CD8 610.
For $0.20 a day, we will give eating a half a coconut each a try for a few months.
Mother of Allah it is not easy to eat that much of a coconut! We may have to munch all day...
There is a lot of interesting information about coconut out there that is worth a look.
Cheers from Paradise,
Hoover and Dr. T.
(Never shake the coconut tree without a hardhat!) ;D
http://www.organicfacts.net/organic-oils/organic-coconut-oil/health-benefits-of-coconut-oil.html
Heart Diseases: There is a misconception spread among many people that coconut oil is not good for the heart. This is because it contains a large quantity of saturated fats. However, coconut oil is beneficial for the heart. It contains about 50% lauric acid, which helps in preventing various heart problems including high cholesterol levels and high blood pressure. The saturated fats present in coconut oil are not harmful as it happens in case of other vegetables oils. It does not lead to increase in LDL levels. It also reduces the incidence of injury in arteries and therefore helps in preventing atheroscleros.
www.jhwellness.com/ Chronic fatigue syndrome
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Coconut is not a cure, but it may be helpful.
There are many studies, not all funded by the coconut producers, that show that coconut has benefits for viruses and fungus.
Since my partner converted a few months ago, he has had a bad fungus issue and candida.
Daily doses of Fluconazol keep it down but it won't go away.
He even has fungus on his face and head along with athlete's foot......
He is not on meds as he has just converted and we want to see how his body is going to rebound. Presently his CD4s are at 437 and CD8 610.
For $0.20 a day, we will give eating a half a coconut each a try for a few months.
Mother of Allah it is not easy to eat that much of a coconut! We may have to munch all day...
There is a lot of interesting information about coconut out there that is worth a look.
Cheers from Paradise,
Hoover and Dr. T.
(Never shake the coconut tree without a hardhat!) ;D
http://www.organicfacts.net/organic-oils/organic-coconut-oil/health-benefits-of-coconut-oil.html
Heart Diseases: There is a misconception spread among many people that coconut oil is not good for the heart. This is because it contains a large quantity of saturated fats. However, coconut oil is beneficial for the heart. It contains about 50% lauric acid, which helps in preventing various heart problems including high cholesterol levels and high blood pressure. The saturated fats present in coconut oil are not harmful as it happens in case of other vegetables oils. It does not lead to increase in LDL levels. It also reduces the incidence of injury in arteries and therefore helps in preventing atheroscleros.
www.jhwellness.com/ Chronic fatigue syndrome
These are medically researched articles and websites?
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wow
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Here is a link to some medical/scientific studies on Coconut oil:
http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/coconut-research.htm
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I love to rub it on my tummy. :)
I love to rub it elsewhere.
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Here is a link to some medical/scientific studies on Coconut oil:
http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/coconut-research.htm
coconut oil research by a pro-coconut oil "research site" ......
Sorry doesn't cut the mustard, so to speak.
Quackery!
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here is from that coconut oil research website
http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article10291.htm
read on down towards the end and it's a rather frightening study.
this smells of denialist connections.
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Here's one! wow, if the National Institute of Health mentions it, it must indeed be quackery:
Decreased fat and nitrogen losses in patients with AIDS receiving medium-chain-triglyceride-enriched formula vs those receiving long-chain-triglyceride-containing formula. J Am Diet Assoc. 1997 Jun;97(6):605-11.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9183320
omg and another one!
A medium chain triglyceride-based diet in patients with HIV and chronic diarrhea reduces diarrhea and malabsorption: a prospective, controlled trial. Nutrition. 1996 Nov-Dec;12(11-12):766-71.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8974102
both links taken from the coconut oil research website.
mellow out already.
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Oh yeah if its on-the-job internet it just gotta be true
As a whole psuedo science website
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i like coconuts, they smell like ladies lying in the sun ;D woooohooo... sorry sorry sorry had a moment
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Here's one! wow, if the National Institute of Health mentions it, it must indeed be quackery:
Decreased fat and nitrogen losses in patients with AIDS receiving medium-chain-triglyceride-enriched formula vs those receiving long-chain-triglyceride-containing formula. J Am Diet Assoc. 1997 Jun;97(6):605-11.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9183320
omg and another one!
A medium chain triglyceride-based diet in patients with HIV and chronic diarrhea reduces diarrhea and malabsorption: a prospective, controlled trial. Nutrition. 1996 Nov-Dec;12(11-12):766-71.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8974102
both links taken from the coconut oil research website.
mellow out already.
Bilking people out of their money is oen of my pet peeves, actually. So no, can't mellow out over this one.
The second study used patients who had AIDS-defining conditions AND malabsorption.
The study consisted of 23 patients and lasted 15 days, in 1997.
The first study took place in 1996, and utilized 24 adult patients over a four week period.
In both studies, benefits towards reducing malabsorption, quality of stool, and overall body mass were noted.
This is relevant to AIDS patients with diagnosed malabsorption. These studies said nothing about, as the OP put it,
<<When you consume coconut oil, its Lauric Acid transforms into a substance called Monolaurin that can strengthen the immune system and fight various diseases and viruses.>>
Nothing in the studies mentioned anything of this sort. And Coconut oil CAn contribute to an elevated cholesterol level, a known and potentially dangerous side effect of many drugs used to treat HIV, drugs which were not necessarily available in 1996 or 1997, when these studies were published.
I am sure that a patient undergoing HAART therapy who was experiencing malabsorption would be in contact/communication with her/his doctor before undertaking a therapy that could could have serious, even fatal health disadvantages.
Just like not everyone who feels skinny needs steroids despite regular testosterone readings, , not everyone who has digestive issues needs coconut oil. To the contrary, both can be expensive and hide the true cause of the problem, even causing new problems along the way.
I shall mellow out when people stop making broad claims about HIV and its treatment and then act shocked when those claims are exposed for the half-truths (at best) that they are.
The right tool for the right job; the right medicine for the right ailment, and checking with a professional along the way is the soundest advice this forum can - and should - offer. HIV punishes shortcuts rather severely, and people are happy to prey on the desperation of others.
Fewer things make me less mellow than that.
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As stated: The right tool for the right job; the right medicine for the right ailment, and checking with a professional along the way is the soundest advice this forum can - and should - offer. HIV punishes shortcuts rather severely, and people are happy to prey on the desperation of others.
Absolutely.
However, to suggest offhand that any nutritional information is quackery, "coconut oil research by a pro-coconut oil "research site" ..... Sorry doesn't cut the mustard, so to speak. Quackery!," without taking a look at the actual research is not helpful either.
I do not believe nor I am not suggesting that coconut oil is a cure for hiv or that it will be a replacement for meds, but I am stating that it might be a helpful supplement.
And as far as the OP's comment NOT claim about the beneficial properties of Lauric acid:
This study in 2005 specifically discusses how types of dietary fatty acids differentially modulate immune responses:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15843537
Saturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids reciprocally modulate dendritic cell functions mediated through TLR4.
and states in part, "dendritic cells treated with lauric acid show increased T cell activation capacity..." and "These results shed new light in understanding how types of dietary fatty acids differentially modulate immune responses that could alter the risk of many chronic diseases."
This study in 2009 discusses HIV and lauric acid:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19594941
Identification of light-independent inhibition of human immunodeficiency virus-1 infection through bioguided fractionation of Hypericum perforatum.
The conclusion states: "Through bioguided fractionation, we ave identified that 3-hydroxy lauric acid found in field grown Hypericum perforatum has anit-HIV activity. This novel anti-HIV activity can be potentially developed into inexpensive therapies, expanding the current arsenal of anti-retriviral agents."
(For the record, I recogize that Hypericum perforatum is not coconut oil).
Stay tense then. I respect your opinion and admire your vigilance.
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Well stated Thom!
There is a lot for us all to learn if we keep our minds open to all possibilities.
We are all literate adults and can do our own research on subjects offered, if we like what we find we can continue.
If we don't like what we find, we can hit delete.
It is that simple. :D
Hoover and Dr. T
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Well stated Thom!
There is a lot for us all to learn if we keep our minds open to all possibilities.
We are all literate adults and can do our own research on subjects offered, if we like what we find we can continue.
If we don't like what we find, we can hit delete.
It is that simple. :D
Hoover and Dr. T
Um, no. Not on a site dedicated to scientifically proven HIV treatment, where the stakes are as high as someone's health and perhaps even life.
I know that this site is a lark for you, while you and your husband frolic in paradise amongst the "natives."
However, when you or anyone post half-truths or outright lies regarding alternative treatments, those of us who actually think that this site exists as a resource rather than a diversion, some of us who are actually committed to first-tiered peer-reviewed science will always do two things: debate or refute the facts, and/or report you to a moderator.
Because this shit is actually real. And can be dangerous.
Of course, you have me on "ignore," so you will not likely read this. But rest assured, I read your sanctimony and condescension, and shall respond when you cross the line.
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JKINAT,
No idea what you wrote, but I hope you feel better for saying it.
Cheers,
Hoover and Dr T. ;D
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No idea what you wrote
why?
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JKINAT,
No idea what you wrote, but I hope you feel better for saying it.
Cheers,
Hoover and Dr T. ;D
I do feel better each and every time I refute one of your smug and condescending posts. Especially when they espouse scientifically questionable ideas that are promoted by sites linked to HIV denialism, whose sole purpose is to separate sick people, often sick impoverished people, from their scant resources.
I do not, of course, know you well enough to call you reprehensible. I do know your posts to call the vast majority if them that.
When you put a prolific poster on a message forum on "ignore," you can expect to receive less than the sum total of the optimal experience. But rest assured, my "ignore" list remains empty. I will not allow you to drag this place into a cesspool of scientific half-truths and condescending, semi-racist platitudes.
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i like coconuts, they smell like ladies lying in the sun ;D woooohooo... sorry sorry sorry had a moment
Ahhhh memories of the Bahamas.... Gin and coconut water aka Sky Juice!
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Coconuts + Trampolins + Fluoride + Oxygen chambers = WIN (with a big, supple penis as a bonus).
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So much hate spewed over coconuts?
A friend sent me a copy of the message directed towards me and I thought I would reply.
HIV does not discriminate between the rich and the poor, we all suffer.
At no time have I ever suggested or implied that anyone should not be on his or her life saving meds.
The newest cocktails are PROVEN to work very well!
I am certain my partner and I will be on the meds when the time is appropriate for us and be thankful the meds.
After conversion a few months ago my CD4s went to 348 and my doctor wanted to put me on meds immediately.
(Unlike most of the people on this site, I live in a 3rd would country that does not offer the up to date HIV meds and if I try to buy them from other countries I am not guaranteed a steady supply.
If we choose to take the meds offered here, my only option for first line meds here is the cocktail with AZT! If the patient does not respond well to the AZT, other meds will be supplied.
People on this site who have taken AZT have told me not to take them.
None of the newer generation HART meds are available here.
In order to get these meds in CR, you must leave the country.
You are only allowed to bring in a 3 month supply when you return.
It is illegal to import any vitamins, nutritional supplements or medications by mail or any manner other then personally bringing them with you when you return to the country. )
My CD4s are going up every month, probably as my body's natural response to dealing with HIV and possibly a little to something I am doing to help my body.
It would be stupid to set back and do nothing at all to help my body when so much is at stake.
This thread is about nutrition. Many people want to exchange thoughts about this subject and do their own research.
If they find something they think may help, they should consult their doctor about it.
I often read posts saying the supplements do NOTHING and people should just take their meds and nothing else.
What about those of us who are not on the meds as our CD4s are above 500?
Maybe some of the folks doing the nutritional supplements (after consulting their doctor) are trying to take some control of their lives with the only option they have at hand?
If it makes them feel mentally better and does no harm, where is the problem? Eating excess coconut will give a bit of diarrhea.
The first rule in medicine is do no harm. If the body doesn't use the supplements, it eliminates them.
Yes supplements can be costly and everyone can't afford them. That is a sad fact for which I have no answer.
What grows in my yard here in my tropical paradise? COCONUTS!
I can go to the grocery store and buy them for 40 cents per coconut.
If better nutrition can help us stay off the AZT, we will try it.
Until you are in my shoes, don't be so quick to judge my actions.
This states my case well enough for everyone to know what I am doing and why I have chosen this course.
Peace,
Hoover and Dr. T
Name: jkinatl2 Posts: 2,713 (1.602 per day) Ignored by: 9 members
Um, no. Not on a site dedicated to scientifically proven HIV treatment, where the stakes are as high as someone's health and perhaps even life.
I know that this site is a lark for you, while you and your husband frolic in paradise amongst the "natives."
However, when you or anyone post half-truths or outright lies regarding alternative treatments, those of us who actually think that this site exists as a resource rather than a diversion, some of us who are actually committed to first-tiered peer-reviewed science will always do two things: debate or refute the facts, and/or report you to a moderator.
Because this shit is actually real. And can be dangerous.
Of course, you have me on "ignore," so you will not likely read this. But rest assured, I read your sanctimony and condescension, and shall respond when you cross the lineI do feel better each and every time I refute one of your smug and condescending posts. Especially when they espouse scientifically questionable ideas that are promoted by sites linked to HIV denialism, whose sole purpose is to separate sick people, often sick impoverished people, from their scant resources.
I do not, of course, know you well enough to call you reprehensible. I do know your posts to call the vast majority if them that.
When you put a prolific poster on a message forum on "ignore," you can expect to receive less than the sum total of the optimal experience. But rest assured, my "ignore" list remains empty. I will not allow you to drag this place into a cesspool of scientific half-truths and condescending, semi-racist platitudes.
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So much hate spewed over coconuts?
A friend sent me a copy of the message directed towards me and I thought I would reply.
HIV does not discriminate between the rich and the poor, we all suffer.
At no time have I ever suggested or implied that anyone should not be on his or her life saving meds.
The newest cocktails are PROVEN to work very well!
I am certain my partner and I will be on the meds when the time is appropriate for us and be thankful the meds.
After conversion a few months ago my CD4s went to 348 and my doctor wanted to put me on meds immediately.
(Unlike most of the people on this site, I live in a 3rd would country that does not offer the up to date HIV meds and if I try to buy them from other countries I am not guaranteed a steady supply.
If we choose to take the meds offered here, my only option for first line meds here is the cocktail with AZT! If the patient does not respond well to the AZT, other meds will be supplied.
People on this site who have taken AZT have told me not to take them.
None of the newer generation HART meds are available here.
In order to get these meds in CR, you must leave the country.
You are only allowed to bring in a 3 month supply when you return.
It is illegal to import any vitamins, nutritional supplements or medications by mail or any manner other then personally bringing them with you when you return to the country. )
My CD4s are going up every month, probably as my body's natural response to dealing with HIV and possibly a little to something I am doing to help my body.
It would be stupid to set back and do nothing at all to help my body when so much is at stake.
This thread is about nutrition. Many people want to exchange thoughts about this subject and do their own research.
If they find something they think may help, they should consult their doctor about it.
I often read posts saying the supplements do NOTHING and people should just take their meds and nothing else.
What about those of us who are not on the meds as our CD4s are above 500?
Maybe some of the folks doing the nutritional supplements (after consulting their doctor) are trying to take some control of their lives with the only option they have at hand?
If it makes them feel mentally better and does no harm, where is the problem? Eating excess coconut will give a bit of diarrhea.
The first rule in medicine is do no harm. If the body doesn't use the supplements, it eliminates them.
Yes supplements can be costly and everyone can't afford them. That is a sad fact for which I have no answer.
What grows in my yard here in my tropical paradise? COCONUTS!
I can go to the grocery store and buy them for 40 cents per coconut.
If better nutrition can help us stay off the AZT, we will try it.
Until you are in my shoes, don't be so quick to judge my actions.
This states my case well enough for everyone to know what I am doing and why I have chosen this course.
Peace,
Hoover and Dr. T
Name: jkinatl2 Posts: 2,713 (1.602 per day) Ignored by: 9 members
Um, no. Not on a site dedicated to scientifically proven HIV treatment, where the stakes are as high as someone's health and perhaps even life.
I know that this site is a lark for you, while you and your husband frolic in paradise amongst the "natives."
However, when you or anyone post half-truths or outright lies regarding alternative treatments, those of us who actually think that this site exists as a resource rather than a diversion, some of us who are actually committed to first-tiered peer-reviewed science will always do two things: debate or refute the facts, and/or report you to a moderator.
Because this shit is actually real. And can be dangerous.
Of course, you have me on "ignore," so you will not likely read this. But rest assured, I read your sanctimony and condescension, and shall respond when you cross the lineI do feel better each and every time I refute one of your smug and condescending posts. Especially when they espouse scientifically questionable ideas that are promoted by sites linked to HIV denialism, whose sole purpose is to separate sick people, often sick impoverished people, from their scant resources.
I do not, of course, know you well enough to call you reprehensible. I do know your posts to call the vast majority if them that.
When you put a prolific poster on a message forum on "ignore," you can expect to receive less than the sum total of the optimal experience. But rest assured, my "ignore" list remains empty. I will not allow you to drag this place into a cesspool of scientific half-truths and condescending, semi-racist platitudes.
although you have me on ignore as well...
Hate? Seriously?
The only thing proven to reduce HIV viral load is HAART. But you probably know this, although you might not be ready to deal with taking them. AZT is still an effective drug and there is a huge body of real research surrounding it. The dosing of it is not what it was. Yes the long term side effects are well documented too.
Your posts about supplements and natural products are reminiscent of what it was like before HAART. Many of us grasped on to whatever we could to survive, and nothing worked and our wallets became much lighter.
This thread is about nutrition and HIV but it's not a free for all. Supplements are not regulated. Many "research studies" done are case studies or done on a very small sample or no control group.
If the body doesn't use them. it eliminates it....or.... causes problems, kidney damage, liver damage....death maybe?
But since you have me on ignore, I might as well be talking to a tree stump, a coconut tree stump maybe.
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i like coconuts, they smell like ladies lying in the sun ;D woooohooo... sorry sorry sorry had a moment
Best suntan I ever had was when we used to use smear ourselves in coconut oil.. ;D
why?
I think he may be having some problems understanding the writings of an intelligent man.
Aroha
Jan :-*
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What if we put the lime in the coconut?
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What if we put the lime in the coconut?
You put da lime in da coconut and shake it all about!
MtD
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You put da lime in da coconut and shake it all about!
MtD
Of course, that's only reported to ease belly aches. For more advanced ailments, you might also have to chant:
Ooo eee! Ooo ah ah! Ting tang walla walla bing bang!
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Is Dr. T an actual doctor? And if so, what kind?
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Is Dr. T an actual doctor? And if so, what kind?
I was wondering that too. Hoover is constantly giving "medical" advice but saying "I'm not a doctor nor do I portray one on TV" but then he signs his posts "Hoover and Dr. T". Seems like a great way to confuse people and make them think a real doctor is making these suggestions! And given the fluoride conspiracy, etc. I really hope people don't take medical advice from him/them.
odyssey
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I think posters need to give the readers a little credit.
People on this site are not children and shouldn't be treated as such.
Discussion boards are just that, for discussion.
Look at what is presented and then decide if you want to investigate more or think it is trash.
Have a pleasant day,
Hoover and my non-participating partner Dr. T. :P
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I think posters need to give the readers a little credit.
People on this site are not children and shouldn't be treated as such.
Discussion boards are just that, for discussion.
Look at what is presented and then decide if you want to investigate more or think it is trash.
Have a pleasant day,
Hoover and my non-participating partner Dr. T. :P
Yes these are discussion boards and most of what we are discussing with you is that your expensive, new agey, homeopathic, unscientific snake oil does not work. Your opinions will probably change once you go on meds. And, apparently, your lifestyle will have to change as you won't have the best access to current meds in paradise.
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Hoover and my non-participating partner Dr. T. :P
If your partner isn't participating, why do you sign your posts with his name?
Odyssey's correct. Using "Dr." when signing your posts IS misleading and perhaps it's time you stopped doing it.
One of the bullet points in the main Welcome that appears at the top of each and every forum pages says...
All members of these forums are, by default, not considered to be licensed medical providers. If otherwise, users must clearly define themselves as such.
By signing your posts "Dr.", you are defining your partner as a doctor. So again, you should stop doing this, especially when you're touting any sort of nutritional, supplemental or medical advice. Your lame disclaimer just doesn't cut it.
Ann
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I think posters need to give the readers a little credit.
People on this site are not children and shouldn't be treated as such.
Discussion boards are just that, for discussion.
Look at what is presented and then decide if you want to investigate more or think it is trash.
Have a pleasant day,
Hoover and my non-participating partner Dr. T. :P
If posters on this site are not children and shold be treated as adults, why place the dissenters to your tomes on "ignore" rather than engage them/us as adults?
Also, what Ann said. You sign your posts with your "non participating" Doctor-Partner's name. This is unethical and lends a credibility that the content of your postings, sadly, decries.
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No problem Ann. I will no longer mention my doctor husband. (even though I have never quoted him)
I could put up his pedigree, but he could be Doctor Robert Gallo and the cabal wouldn't be satisfied. :o
Can we get back to the uses of coconut oil now?
And yes we know it can not cure HIV, but I think no one has even suggested that in this thread.
Cheers Hoover and T.
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No problem Ann. I will no longer mention my doctor husband. (even though I have never quoted him)
Thank you. It doesn't matter whether or not you quote him, signing your posts with "Dr." gives the impression that a doctor is approving your advice. So again, thank you for not doing it anymore.
Cabal? I'm sure there's a supplement for that.
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Can we get back to the uses of coconut oil now?
And yes we know it can not cure HIV, but I think no one has even suggested that in this thread.
The OP certainly led the thread in that direction:
I have read so many articles about coconut oil and its content of lauric acid. When you consume coconut oil, its Lauric Acid transforms into a substance called Monolaurin that can strengthen the immune system and fight various diseases and viruses. Does anyone has any experiences or advice to add? I read it helps in some cases to lower HIV viral load.
I appreciate in advance.
Thanks
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Cabal??? I often rub coconut oil on my cabal, helps me sleep at night.
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Oh, not the "cabal" again -- how exactly does that term come up again, and again, and again? If I didn't know better I'd think that some other board personae was PMing new members and planting that seed in their minds. Stranger things have been known to happen round these parts.
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Cabal??? I often rub coconut oil on my cabal, helps me sleep at night.
I have digital cabal --- I get tnt, tbs, showtime, bravo,usa and lots of other channels.
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What the hell is "cabal"?
odyssey
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What the hell is "cabal"?
you should probably search the forums about that as it's very off topic to the OP's post.
and it'll probably start a flame war that'll lock up this thread ;) :D LOL
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you should probably search the forums about that as it's very off topic to the OP's post.
and it'll probably start a flame war that'll lock up this thread ;) :D LOL
Ahh, okay. Will do. Wouldn't want to detract from the flame war we already have going about coconut oil, lol.
odyssey
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Wouldn't want to detract from the flame war we already have going about coconut oil, lol.
odyssey
LOL
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Being new around here, the hushed whispers of cabal stirred my curiosity... so I searched. Of course there is a cabal in here. :-*
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Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus