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Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 07:42:20 pm

Title: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 07:42:20 pm
We seemed to be getting into this in Win's thread, and in the interests of non-hijacking, I thought it might behoove us to start a thread over here.

Maybe I'm hijacking, but I don't think so because it seems like Win wanted to get some healthy debate going here (which I enjoy).

I don't view ADAP as an entitlement program, because everyone is not entitled to it.  You have to qualify for it, i.e. it is needs based.  This is how I would prefer our tax dollars be used -- I have good insurance, so the government shouldn't have to foot my bill.  Of course, this argument goes out the window the day that the US gets Universal Health Care funded by the government -- maybe my grandchildren will see that, but I doubt that I will.

Again (back on the thread) -- volunteering is NOT volunteering if its compulsory.  I don't think anyone should be required to "pay back" for this assistance.  I think volunteering would be an excellent idea for people who receive ADAP, as well as for those of us who don't.  I, myself, am guilty of doing more "donating" than "volunteering".  This thread has got me thinking about why this is -- and how I should go about changing it.



Mike

Oh yeah one more thing -- re: the Ninth Amendment
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

We may retain rights not enumerated, but that doesn't obligate the government to pay for them. 

Again, not saying what is right or wrong -- just adding to the debate.   ;D

Mike


Mike, would you argue that free primary and secondary education is not a right?  It is, and that does, in fact, obligate the government to pay for it.

The government is obligated to provide for the common defense, provide for the general welfare and all that stuff laid out in the intro to its founding document.  One could say that about the military... if the American government treated the defense of its borders with the same casual indifference that they treat the health of their citizens... it would be akin to saying, "Pick up a rock and hurl it at the Canadians coming into Duluth.  You're on your own, citizens."

Citizenship is a birthright, we all know that, and as citizens there are certain things that we can and should fully expect of the government... one is that the Canadians won't be invading Duluth anytime soon because being safe and secure is in fact a right... and that obligates the government to pay to ensure that security as best they can.

So I say, yes... healthcare is a right, and yes, this obligates the government to pay for it.  Because right now, I'm seein' what our neighbors in the north have... and I'm thinking about hanging a "Welcome Canadians" sign up if they ever do invade. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 07:46:23 pm
I don't really care about the constitutional debate, but as a moral and ethical issue I do feel healthcare is a Right or at least it should be.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 07:49:52 pm
aupointillimite, I don't think socialized medicine would ever go over in the US. We are so used to being able to call and get right in to see a doctor. Doctor wants you to have a MRI, you make an appointment and get right in. We don't have to wait months. We have Canadians that come to Ohio to see doctors and get testing so that they don't have to wait months to have it done. We are a very fast past country and we are demand oriented. Social medicine would never work here.  
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 07:54:27 pm
aupointillimite, I don't think socialized medicine would ever go over in the US. We are so used to being able to call and get right in to see a doctor. Doctor wants you to have a MRI, you make an appointment and get right in. We don't have to wait months. We have Canadians that come to Ohio to see doctors and get testing so that they don't have to wait months to have it done. We are a very fast past country and we are demand oriented. Social medicine would never work here. 


And Europe and Canada aren't the First World?  They're not fast-paced societies? 

But, personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag.  And I think a lot of uninsured people would be willing to wait as well.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 08:00:55 pm
aupointillimite, A day was life or death in my situation. Canada's population is apx.  32,816,136 ours is 300 million big difference.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 08:04:50 pm
I don't see any reason why you couldn't still have both a Universal Healthcare system and a private one.   Essentially, we already do.  

I'm certain in all of the countries with socialized medicine there are still private doctors with private practices thriving.  

The only losers here would be the big insurance companies.   Of course they are always lobbying and it seems most politicians are on their payroll.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 08:04:55 pm
And the aggregate population of Europe is over 300 million.  Your point again?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 08:07:22 pm
aupointillimite, A day was life or death in my situation. Canada's population is apx.  32,816,136 ours is 300 million big difference.

You're right... but are Canadians dying of AIDS in hospitals up there?  I really do think if countries with universal health care had such broken systems, and I think if ours was so superior in comparison, they'd be clamoring to switch over to what we have.  But they're not.

And your point about population is extremely well made.  But then have each state set up their own social medicine programs... like how it's done with highways... federal government gives out the money, the states use it to repair and build highways (some better than others).  And if we could span a third of North America with an interstate highway system that helps hundreds of millions of people move about each day... I don't think these problems are insurmountable. 

Like the cliche goes... they can put a man on the moon... 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 08:10:28 pm


I'm certain in all of the countries with socialized medicine there are still private doctors with private practices thriving.   



They do.  It explains the line in Ab Fab... "What is the point of having a private doctor if he won't do what you want?"
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on January 31, 2007, 08:23:22 pm
 The system is already in place to cover every man woman and child. 87 million Americans are covered under Medicare/Medicaid and try telling Grandma and Grandpa they are living the socialist dream. Even private insurance restricts access to care and coverage.

Would any one of my Canadian brothers like to exchange health coverage. I will trade you my car plus my ADAP for your system...any takers?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 08:23:34 pm
In order to create a functional universal healthcare system we are going to have to make some sacrafices.    I'm no scientist, but I highly doubt the cure for cancer or Aids lies on Mars.    I think we start with putting that one on the backburner.

Geeze, I hate to sound unpatriotic, but somehow I don't see how setting up schools and everything for Iraq is going to secure our "freedom."  

Call me a radical, call me a dreamer!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 08:25:16 pm
The system is already in place to cover every man woman and child. 87 million Americans are covered under Medicare/Medicaid and try telling Grandma and Grandpa they are living the socialist dream. Even private insurance restricts access to care and coverage.

Would any one of my Canadian brothers like to exchange health coverage. I will trade you my car plus my ADAP for your system...any takers?

This explains why my grandparents never go to bed each night before singing a rousing chorus of The Internationale.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 08:47:28 pm
Quote
And your point about population is extremely well made.  But then have each state set up their own social medicine programs...

aupointillimite, we do, MEDICAID and it's far from a perfect system. It is better than nothing. Medicaid in Ohio pays doctors 60% of what they could make with patients that have insurance. How many doctors, do you think we would have using socialized medicine? Hell they could get a 9-5 job that would pay more. I have a friend that is a well known Cardiologist that clears over a million a year after malpractice insurance and taxes. You think a person like him would like socialized medicine? He doesn't mind Medicaid patients, because what he loses, he uses for a tax write off. It just wouldn't work here. You're never turned away from getting emergency services now if you can't pay, that is by using county hospitals. The services rendered are the same. It is just faster, compaired to socialized medicine. It would be nice if everyone could get the care that they needed. I have to bypass 5 hospitals to get the advanced medical treatment that I need. I drive 67 miles or go by ambulance, but the local hospitals aren't equipped. If they were to start to work on socialized medicine here it would be years before it could be implemented. We wouldn't see it in effect in our life time.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 08:55:58 pm
I'll make my point again... if our system is superior... why aren't they demanding it in Europe and Canada?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 08:57:46 pm
Because it's NOT superior... but a lot of propaganda by the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries in the US has obviously worked over the years in convincing people that it is.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 08:58:19 pm
Recent studies have shown that Americans pay more for less health care (when outcomes are considered).  The health numbers for the US are not as good as those in Europe, though our system costs more overall.  Why?  Well, we have to pay the profits of the health care insurance industry, as well as the cost of the medical care itself.

Health care rationing?  Access to care problems?  The inability to see any doctor you want?  Having to see Gatekeepers to get into the system?  All these  bugaboos are  put forth by those opposed to universal care in order to scare people away from the idea.  But guess what?  Depending on the insurance plan you are on, you have any and all of them RIGHT NOW.  And if you are unfortunate enough to not have insurance, then you have no access to care AT AL, unless your pockets are very deep.

Oh, and while we may have 10 times the population of Canada, we have around 15 times the number of doctors.

I have good insurance.  I pay dearly for it.  Given the slightest chance, my insurance company would drop me like a hot rock, and I would be left to pay for my care out of pocket.  And pay.  And pay.  Until all my money is gone.  Then I can only hope that ADAP and Ryan White programs are still around to help me out.  If they're not, well, I guess I'll just have to die.

To those opposed to what they like to call 'socialized' medicine.  Stand by your principles.  Give up your employer-subsidized health plans.  Give up your Medicaid, your ADAP, and your Ryan White money.  Pay out of pocket, like any good capitalist should.  Then talk to me about denying to all what you already enjoy.



Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:01:50 pm
Because it's NOT superior... but a lot of propaganda by the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries in the US has obviously worked over the years in convincing people that it is.

Exactly... that's my point.  The industrialized world marvels at the monstrosity that is the American health care system and thank their lucky stars they live in Germany, or the UK or Canada.

You can't polish a turd... and they know it.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 09:06:54 pm
Whizzer, no one was talking about denying anyone anything. We are talking socializing medicine in the US.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 09:07:02 pm
All you have to do is look at what share of GDP we spend on health care versus other industrialized countries.  Then compare key health markers like life span and infant mortality.  We're extremely inefficient.  Why?  Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states.  That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus.  A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.

I consider myself a hearty and well travelled internationalist, and never once in my many voyages or my year living overseas did I come across a single individual who desired a private national healthcare system for their country.  It would be like charging people to breathe the air.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:11:02 pm
All you have to do is look at what share of GDP we spend on health care versus other industrialized countries.  Then compare key health markers like life span and infant mortality.  We're extremely inefficient.  Why?  Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states.  That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus.  A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.

I consider myself a hearty and well travelled internationalist, and never once in my many voyages or my year living overseas did I come across a single individual who desired a private national healthcare system for their country.  It would be like charging people to breathe the air.

Exactly... why do we not have private competition for public utilities?  Because electricity and water are needs... not goods one can do without  And market pricing needs usually means that you end up with skyrocketing costs. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 09:13:59 pm
Ah, but the system we have in place now in the United States DOES deny health care to those with no means to pay.  Emergency care is available to all, yes, but not routine, non-emergent health care. 

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 09:14:40 pm
Well, now we have Bush proposing tax deductions for health care costs.    I'm hoping that doesn't pass even though my family would benefit in the short term right now.    

I think we need massive restructuring to make this work.  

This going too the excessive education level to become a doctor.   I think it's ludicrious that our school system is set up in such a dysfunctional way.   It should never take 7 years to become a doctor.   I don't care if my doctor has been educated on the fundamentals of various theologies and useless knowledge.  

How many other countries have this same system forced upon doctors?

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:18:24 pm
Ah, but the system we have in place now in the United States DOES deny health care to those with no means to pay.  Emergency care is available to all, yes, but not routine, non-emergent health care. 



It also denies medicines to people who can't afford them.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on January 31, 2007, 09:19:34 pm

" The health care system in Canada is a universal system, (some items are not covered) while often called a SOCIALIZED public system it is in fact merely publically funded, most all services are provided by private enterprises, and doctors are not on a government salary, but operate like hardware stores as CAPITALISTIC entities."
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on January 31, 2007, 09:23:52 pm
Ah, but the system we have in place now in the United States DOES deny health care to those with no means to pay.  Emergency care is available to all, yes, but not routine, non-emergent health care. 



Yes you may not be refused emergency care, but you also are charged for it. 80% of people filing for bankruptcy filed because of a health care debt.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 09:24:10 pm
Don't google pros and cons of socialized medicine, you would not believe the information out there. I didn't know that the Providence's of Canada  were allotted so much health care money and when it's gone, it's gone and they have to wait till the next year to get non life threatening surgeries and illnesses taken care of. Now do you really think that would go over in the US?

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: xtremepms on January 31, 2007, 09:25:17 pm
My sister in law is from Canada.  She married my brother and moved to Washington.  Her sister lived in Canada.  They both had an abnormal pap smear.  Both had ovarian cancer.  Her sister died waiting to get all the tests before they could start any kind of treatment.  Cindy lived because she didn't have to wait 6 months for a MRI.
My brother died last month, and because of 9/11, she would have had to have been married to my brother for 5 years before she is granted full citizenship.  He died at the beginning of their 4th year of marriage.  She will cobra the insurance as long as she can afford to, travel from Canada to the US for her health care.  I can not say her sister would not of died if she was in the US, but it seems as if she would of had at least a fighting chance.  Universal Health Care is not the answer, I am not sure what the answer is, but dying while waiting is not an answer to me.
Cono
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 09:29:43 pm
Dash, I went to the hospital and I didn't have to pay a dime and that was before I was issued medicaid. All county hospitals receive federal funds to help pay for people that can not pay. My bill was 52Gs and I was never charged not even a precentage. I'm talking county supported hospitals not private.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 09:32:43 pm
No, healthcare is not a right.


It is nice whan there is a assistance, but it is most assuredly not a right.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:33:37 pm
No, healthcare is not a right.


It is nice whan there is a assistance, but it is most assuredly not a right.

Jeff

I'm curious... why not?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Nico on January 31, 2007, 09:38:14 pm
Wake up America....

If you are in the business, you will see that Aetna, Us HealthCare and Cigna "MANDATE" their employees take a HSA or a CDHP.  No choice.  For people like me and you, that means drug costs and co-pays that are far out of most of our financial means.

Sh*t, I make a mean six figures, but if I had to pay for the cost - my meds add up to almost $100K a year, I would be broke.  Yes I am on a very special diet of drugs.  Without, I will croak.

The US can spend billions in Iraq. After the long haul, will the US make this damn planet a better place???...Sorry. I am just pissed off at the whole damn issue!

Sorry , if I got odd thread or topic.  I am just a pissed off bitch tonight.

Peace ;) I wish!
Rog
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:40:25 pm

The US can spend billions in Iraq. After the long haul, will the US make this damn planet a better place???...Sorry. I am just pissed off at the whole damn issue!

You forgot about the billions of dollars we shove in the sinkhole called "the manned space program."
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 09:42:18 pm
No, healthcare is not a right.


It is nice whan there is a assistance, but it is most assuredly not a right.

Jeff

Hmm,  Healthcare seems to be a right for inmates, even on death row!    So, I shall bring up my absurd arguement again.   If I go out and rob a 7 Eleven and end up in prison, then I won't have to ever worry about my HIV meds or even food.

Why are prisoners who commit violent crimes allowed access to health care?   Why do they have that right?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 09:44:31 pm

We are all responsible for each and every part of our individual lives. If you can't pay, why should we force the rest of the population to bail us out?

Personal responsibility is a good thing, living off other people is not...


In a perfect world, there would be no illnesses....but since this world is not perfect and people need money to pay for things, I highly doubt that Drs are going to give their services away for free.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 09:45:25 pm
Hmm,  Healthcare seems to be a right for inmates, even on death row!    So, I shall bring up my absurd arguement again.   If I go out and rob a 7 Eleven and end up in prison, then I won't have to ever worry about my HIV meds or even food.

Why are prisoners who commit violent crimes allowed access to health care?   Why do they have that right?
[/quote

They are incarcerated, you are not.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 09:47:10 pm
Health care costs above a certain percentage of adjusted gross income have always been tax deductible.  Health care INSURANCE costs have not.

Bush is proposing making employer-provided health care benefits (ie Insurance) above a certain threshold count as taxable income.  Then use the funds from that to allow those who purchase private insurance plans to deduct the cost of those plans, up to a certain amount.

This opens the door for employers to stop, or at the very least drastically reduce, the degree to which they subsidize their employees health care.  A bad thing for the employees, to be sure, but probably good for the system overall, since people will start to see just how much health care actually costs, and hopefully, once their eyes have been opened, they will demand changes to the system as it currently stands.  Our current system can't continue as it is, for soon it will come crashing down under its own weight.  It is already showing signs of breaking.

As for the doctors and their compensation.  Well, doom and gloom was forecast when Medicare came up with the idea of DRGs many years ago, the same was done when managed care appeared.  Guess what?   Doctors learned  how to continue to make money with changes in the system.  In fact, most of them make more.  Though as a group they despise the paperwork that they must now endure to do so.  I am sure they will thrive under a universal healthcare system.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 09:48:40 pm
Yes, and you forget about all the research that they have done that we use today. http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html#computer (http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html#computer) Don't forget about that microwave you have.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 09:48:54 pm
It's amazing what years of Rush Limbaugh have done to people's minds.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:49:01 pm
We are all responsible for each and every part of our individual lives. If you can't pay, why should we force the rest of the population to bail us out?

Personal responsibility is a good thing, living off other people is not...


In a perfect world, there would be no illnesses....but since this world is not perfect and people need money to pay for things, I highly doubt that Drs are going to give their services away for free.


But we all live off of each other.  Do you have the same problem with free education up to high school?  Should parents educate their children themselves... or pay for private schools in lieu of having the option of sending them to public school?

We depend upon dozens of different people in insanely diverse ways (some visible, some not) in our everyday lives, and it's absolutely impossible for one to to be 100% responsible for all human needs.

No one is suggesting that doctors work for free... just that the government put a universal insurance program in that would pay for all citizens' health care.  Which we would pay for... through taxes.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 09:49:20 pm


They are incarcerated, you are not.





Yeah, let's talk about personal responsibility........   How bout you tell that to the girl I met who was raped and ended up with HIV?

I don't know if her attacker was ever caught, but if he was then he'd have the right to HIV meds in jail all the way until he was parolled and let out to rape again.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 09:53:22 pm
But we all live off of each other.  Do you have the same problem with free education up to high school?  Should parents educate their children themselves... or pay for private schools in lieu of having the option of sending them to public school?

We depend upon dozens of different people in insanely diverse ways (some visible, some not) in our everyday lives, and it's absolutely impossible for one to to be 100% responsible for all human needs.

No one is suggesting that doctors work for free... just that the government put a universal insurance program in that would pay for all citizens' health care.  Which we would pay for... through taxes.

High School is not free, it is paid for by PROPERTY TAXES.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:55:07 pm
High School is not free, it is paid for by PROPERTY TAXES.


Right, and a universal insurance program would be paid for with taxes as well.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 09:55:20 pm

They are incarcerated, you are not.





Yeah, let's talk about personal responsibility........   How bout you tell that to the girl I met who was raped and ended up with HIV?

I don't know if her attacker was ever caught, but if he was then he'd have the right to HIV meds in jail all the way until he was parolled and let out to rape again.



I can only say one thind, and I mean no disrespect, but shit happens in life.
Some of us got hiv and some of us win the lottery.

Life is strange and not a fair thing at all.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 09:57:18 pm
Right, and a universal insurance program would be paid for with taxes as well.

And how much more tax must I pay to make the entire world happy?
Would it be when my property tax rises to 50 percent?

I would not be able to afford to live in my house anymore, just because someone was so irresponsible to NOT buy insurance.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on January 31, 2007, 09:58:49 pm
aupointillimite, that is one of the big problems that we have now, we're taxed to death. I've only been out of work two years, of that I have payed taxes since I was sixteen. I pay school taxes and I don't have children. I pay house and property taxes, I pay fuel and sales taxes. I believe we are taxed to death. We are even taxed on money that has already been taxed. How much more money do you want us to be taxed?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 09:59:26 pm
And how much more tax must I pay to make the entire world happy?
Would it be when my property tax rises to 50 percent?

I would not be able to afford to live in my house anymore, just because someone was so irresponsible to NOT buy insurance.


Some people can't afford insurance through no fault of their own.

Some people are denied insurance through no fault of their own.

This isn't a question of responsibility... it's a question of human rights.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 09:59:53 pm
And how much more tax must I pay to make the entire world happy?
Would it be when my property tax rises to 50 percent?

I would not be able to afford to live in my house anymore, just because someone was so irresponsible to NOT buy insurance.


Your Grand Answer is "Shit Happens"

Oh my!   I pay $5,000 a year in property taxes, but I still feel everyone should be entitled to access to healthcare, not just inmates!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:01:08 pm
aupointillimite, that is one of the big problems that we have now, we're taxed to death. I've only been out of work two years, of that I have payed taxes since I was sixteen. I pay school taxes and I don't have children. I pay house and property taxes, I pay fuel and sales taxes. I believe we are taxed to death. We are even taxed on money that has already been taxed. How much more money do you want us to be taxed?

No more... but maybe it's a question of how the government chooses to spend its money.

How much does each cruise missle cost? How much money do we give to Israel?  How much money did it cost to land on the moon?

Aerodynamic golf balls notwithstanding... I think we could spend a bit more on domestic programs.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:01:48 pm
Some people can't afford insurance through no fault of their own.

Some people are denied insurance through no fault of their own.

This isn't a question of responsibility... it's a question of human rights.

Then my rights are being stepped on...I should not have to pay for the irresponsible.

It is not hard to get insurance...go get a job the offers insurance like I did...no turn downs allowed BY LAW.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 10:02:13 pm
So we shouldn't provide health care to those in prison?  Just askin.

I pay property taxes, lots and lots of property tax.  I don't use the public school systems, nor will I ever.  I didn't use them growing up, for I was privately schooled.  I could therefore argue that if someone chooses to have a child, they should see to their educations out of their own pockets, and stop reaching into mine.  I don't, though, because I think a government subsidized education system is important to our society.

I also pay for my own health care (lots and lots of that, too, unfortunately).  But I think that, like education, universal access to health care is important.

Oh, and by the way, some people can't buy insurance, because insurance companies won't sell it to them.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on January 31, 2007, 10:03:50 pm
So I say, yes... healthcare is a right, and yes, this obligates the government to pay for it.  Because right now, I'm seein' what our neighbors in the north have... and I'm thinking about hanging a "Welcome Canadians" sign up if they ever do invade. 

You may say it is a right and I may say that it should be right -- but that doesn't make it so.  Whether we like it or not, our Health care system is what it is -- now, I'm not saying we should try and change it, but it is what it is.
We can also say what we like about how other countries are glad they don't have our system -- but when they are really sick, how many world leaders and other powerful people come here to get the best care that money can buy (money, of course, being key in our system.)
Finally I will add, that we all have a hand in the problems of our Health Care System (including myself).  We Americans want the best healthcare available, with the best technologies, medicines, etc -- we want it without delay AND we want someone else to pay for it.  We would never stand for having to wait or ration care, that is why the Canadian or British model wouldn't work here.  Now, the "we" I speak of is obviously not the uninsured, the "we" are the majority of voters.  Americans are not known for their patience.
Don't misunderstand, I am very glad that I live in the US.  We aren't perfect, far from it, but I like my life here.  I've served in the military and fought in Desert Storm -- so I take my rights and privileges very seriously.  (Please don't take that to mean I agree with the current boneheaded foreign policy)

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:04:24 pm
Your Grand Answer is "Shit Happens"

Oh my!   I pay $5,000 a year in property taxes, but I still feel everyone should be entitled to access to healthcare, not just inmates!

No need to get snippy, dear.

Who exactly is going to pay for this wild "UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE" ?

Would you like to pay twice your property tax? Three times?

Think about the realities instead of being a hero.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:06:09 pm
So we shouldn't provide health care to those in prison?  Just askin.

I pay property taxes, lots and lots of property tax.  I don't use the public school systems, nor will I ever.  I didn't use them growing up, for I was privately schooled.  I could therefore argue that if someone chooses to have a child, they should see to their educations out of their own pockets, and stop reaching into mine.  I don't, though, because I think a government subsidized education system is important to our society.

I also pay for my own health care (lots and lots of that, too, unfortunately).  But I think that, like education, universal access to health care is important.

Oh, and by the way, some people can't buy insurance, because insurance companies won't sell it to them.

If you work in the US at a company that offers insurance, you cannot be turned down.

FACT!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Nico on January 31, 2007, 10:06:20 pm
Universal coverage?  A wet dream.  Who will pay?  That is why US companies have gone to CDHP and HSA's.  If you do not know what these are, please IM me.

Yes taxes would go up for some, but I pay an annual tax of $1,500 to Grady in ATL and I do not use the facility.  I pay for the insured and I pay my own premiun of $3,000 plus an Flex acct of another $3.5K each year just for me.  Do the math.

The system is broken.

Rog
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:06:48 pm
Health care costs above a certain percentage of adjusted gross income have always been tax deductible.  Health care INSURANCE costs have not.

Bush is proposing making employer-provided health care benefits (ie Insurance) above a certain threshold count as taxable income.  Then use the funds from that to allow those who purchase private insurance plans to deduct the cost of those plans, up to a certain amount.

This opens the door for employers to stop, or at the very least drastically reduce, the degree to which they subsidize their employees health care.  A bad thing for the employees, to be sure, but probably good for the system overall, since people will start to see just how much health care actually costs, and hopefully, once their eyes have been opened, they will demand changes to the system as it currently stands.  Our current system can't continue as it is, for soon it will come crashing down under its own weight.  It is already showing signs of breaking.

As for the doctors and their compensation.  Well, doom and gloom was forecast when Medicare came up with the idea of DRGs many years ago, the same was done when managed care appeared.  Guess what?   Doctors learned  how to continue to make money with changes in the system.  In fact, most of them make more.  Though as a group they despise the paperwork that they must now endure to do so.  I am sure they will thrive under a universal healthcare system.

Whizzer, you make a good case.   Especially since we will have more old people than ever in the near future.    And they vote!  Maybe there is hope! ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on January 31, 2007, 10:09:57 pm
As for the doctors and their compensation.  Well, doom and gloom was forecast when Medicare came up with the idea of DRGs many years ago, the same was done when managed care appeared.  Guess what?   Doctors learned  how to continue to make money with changes in the system.  In fact, most of them make more.  Though as a group they despise the paperwork that they must now endure to do so.  I am sure they will thrive under a universal healthcare system.

How do they make the money now? The old American way -- by becoming more "efficiient", i.e. spending less time with each patient, so that they can see more patients in a day. Not the recipe one would hope for.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:11:12 pm
If you work in the US at a company that offers insurance, you cannot be turned down.

FACT!


Jeff, You are wrong.   Many companies don't offer insurance.   I'm not getting snippy, but if it meant everyone would have health insurance I'd gladly shell out $10,000 a year for property taxes.

I guess I'm not as greedy as others.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:11:18 pm
If you work in the US at a company that offers insurance, you cannot be turned down.

FACT!


You're right.  But that's a big "if."

40 million uninsured... and 13% of our population isn't unemployed.  It's much less. 

A lot of people are working with no insurance offered by their employers. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on January 31, 2007, 10:11:45 pm
My sister in law is from Canada.  She married my brother and moved to Washington.  Her sister lived in Canada.  They both had an abnormal pap smear.  Both had ovarian cancer.  Her sister died waiting to get all the tests before they could start any kind of treatment.  Cindy lived because she didn't have to wait 6 months for a MRI.
My brother died last month, and because of 9/11, she would have had to have been married to my brother for 5 years before she is granted full citizenship.  He died at the beginning of their 4th year of marriage.  She will cobra the insurance as long as she can afford to, travel from Canada to the US for her health care.  I can not say her sister would not of died if she was in the US, but it seems as if she would of had at least a fighting chance.  Universal Health Care is not the answer, I am not sure what the answer is, but dying while waiting is not an answer to me.
Cono

This is the kind of story the American right loves to throw at US citizens about "socialized" Canadian medicine.  While I don't doubt your tale, I can tell you from my experience it has not been true.

I can call my doc up and get in often the same day.  When my dad was diagnosed with lymphoma he was in the hospital in very short order for treatment.  In short, if it's deemed life-threatening you usually get the treatment very quickly.  Where there is some truth to the fear-mongering is the wait for elective surgery.  In short, if it not life-threatening you can face a wait.  If the Canadian system is so bad why is Canada's life expectancy higher than the US?  Rushing people off for expensive tests at the drop of a hat obviously isn't making Americans live longer.

There's one thing I never experienced in the Canadian medical system: a bill.  

Never.  Not for my GP or specialists, hospital visits, lab tests, x-rays etc.  Neither will I have any bills or  co-pays for my HIV meds.  So as someone with HIV, where would I rather be? Pretty easy choice.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: fearless on January 31, 2007, 10:11:59 pm
America is one of the lowest tax countries in the world, but lower taxes don't mean better outcomes: http://progecon.wordpress.com/2006/12/06/taxes-and-outcomesnordic-vs-anglo-american/ (http://progecon.wordpress.com/2006/12/06/taxes-and-outcomesnordic-vs-anglo-american/). The article shows that higher taxed countries appear to have better outcomes across a whole range of issues.

And,as Americans you pay more for your health care, but generally have worse outcomes than all other industrialised countries, paying nearly twice as much per capita as other industrialised countries - interestingly some 20-25% of your costs are consumed in the administration of your system. http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf (http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf).

Our system is by no means perfect, but I'm happy with my $18 co-pay to see a doctor, and $30 a script for my pills. We don't get rationed service like you assume. My doctor runs a private practice, I make a telephone call and make an appointment to see him, just like you. If I'm sick, I go to hospital, just like you.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:13:16 pm
No more... but maybe it's a question of how the government chooses to spend its money.

How much does each cruise missle cost? How much money do we give to Israel?  How much money did it cost to land on the moon?

Aerodynamic golf balls notwithstanding... I think we could spend a bit more on domestic programs.

Hell, we might as well make Israel the 51st state.   I don't think any of the other 50 recieve that much federal funding.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:17:26 pm
You're right.  But that's a big "if."

40 million uninsured... and 13% of our population isn't unemployed.  It's much less. 

A lot of people are working with no insurance offered by their employers. 

Then it woud behoove them to get employment with those that do...once again, personal responsibility.
If they want socialism, go defect to Cuba.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 10:18:15 pm
So Jeff, you think everyone should work at a big company that offers health insurance?  Is that possible?  What about the small businesses that don't?  The self-employed?

What will you do if your company STOPS offering you that nice fat subsidized group insurance plan?  What if they all stop?  They only have to let you in on it if they offer a plan, but they DON"T have to offer a plan.  As a person with HIV, you will quickly find that your insurance purchase options are zero.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 10:19:00 pm
I love someone who screams "FACT!" and then turns around and accuses everyone of being snippy.

People never cease to amaze me on teh intranets.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:21:02 pm
Then it woud behoove them to get employment with those that do...once again, personal responsibility.
If they want socialism, go defect to Cuba.

Jeff


You make it sound so easy.  But it's not.

And, you're right.. let's just put the clock back to the glory days of capitalism... the late 19th century!  No government interference in anything!

No free education!  No FDA!  No Department of Labor!

Let's get back to the good old days of rats in breakfast sausages, 12 hour workdays, and child labor! 
 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: xtremepms on January 31, 2007, 10:21:19 pm
This is the kind of story the American right loves to throw at US citizens about "socialized" Canadian medicine.  While I don't doubt your tale, I can tell you from my experience it has not been true.

I can call my doc up and get in often the same day.  When my dad was diagnosed with lymphoma he was in the hospital in very short order for treatment.  In short, if it's deemed life-threatening you usually get the treatment very quickly.  Where there is some truth to the fear-mongering is the wait for elective surgery.  In short, if it not life-threatening you can face a wait.  If the Canadian system is so bad why is Canada's life expectancy higher than the US?  Rushing people off for expensive tests at the drop of a hat obviously isn't making Americans live longer.

There's one thing I never experienced in the Canadian medical system: a bill.  

Never.  Not for my GP or specialists, hospital visits, lab tests, x-rays etc.  Neither will I have any bills or  co-pays for my HIV meds.  So as someone with HIV, where would I rather be? Pretty easy choice.

I can only go by what I know, and since both sisters were facing the same cancer, one waiting for more testing and one not.  One lives and one dies.  
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:21:25 pm
This is the kind of story the American right loves to throw at US citizens about "socialized" Canadian medicine.  While I don't doubt your tale, I can tell you from my experience it has not been true.

I can call my doc up and get in often the same day.  When my dad was diagnosed with lymphoma he was in the hospital in very short order for treatment.  In short, if it's deemed life-threatening you usually get the treatment very quickly.  Where there is some truth to the fear-mongering is the wait for elective surgery.  In short, if it not life-threatening you can face a wait.  If the Canadian system is so bad why is Canada's life expectancy higher than the US?  Rushing people off for expensive tests at the drop of a hat obviously isn't making Americans live longer.

There's one thing I never experienced in the Canadian medical system: a bill.  

Never.  Not for my GP or specialists, hospital visits, lab tests, x-rays etc.  Neither will I have any bills or  co-pays for my HIV meds.  So as someone with HIV, where would I rather be? Pretty easy choice.

Yeah, why is the life expectancy so much higer in Canada?   Is it all the trees?  

Costa Rica also offers all it's citizens health care if you are a resident.    I was just watching a special the other day and they discussed the "blue zones" places where people live much longer.   Check out http://bluezones.com
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:26:17 pm
So Jeff, you think everyone should work at a big company that offers health insurance?  Is that possible?  What about the small businesses that don't?  The self-employed?

What will you do if your company STOPS offering you that nice fat subsidized group insurance plan?  What if they all stop?  They only have to let you in on it if they offer a plan, but they DON"T have to offer a plan.  As a person with HIV, you will quickly find that your insurance purchase options are zero.

Well Jeff would tell a rape victim who contracted Aids that shit happens so I guess he'd have to try to win that lottery he was talking about!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:27:11 pm
You make it sound so easy.  But it's not.

And, you're right.. let's just put the clock back to the glory days of capitalism... the late 19th century!  No government interference in anything!

No free education!  No FDA!  No Department of Labor!

Let's get back to the good old days of rats in breakfast sausages, 12 hour workdays, and child labor! 
 

Look, dear
If I can get a job that provides decent insurance, then anyone can.
I have a fun job that I love to go to every day...everyone can do that...I am not special.
Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:29:19 pm
And all those socialists living the American dream of setting up their small businesses are screwed too then.

And no... not everyone can.  Not everyone is as well-educated or skilled or smart or not learning disabled or not handicapped.

"Dear?"  Is this thread becoming Ozzie and Harriet?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:29:40 pm
I love someone who screams "FACT!" and then turns around and accuses everyone of being snippy.

People never cease to amaze me on teh intranets.

But, doll,
 It IS a fact.

If you wish to start with me, please don't.

And she WAS being snippy.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:31:45 pm
And all those socialists living the American dream of setting up their small businesses are screwed too then.

And no... not everyone can.  Not everyone is as well-educated or skilled or smart or not learning disabled or not handicapped.

I am not well educated but have a job I enjoy that has good benefits that I pay a portion of.

Why do you think this is so wrong?
I am just a plain guy who is responsible for myself. Don't diss me for that, please.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:32:32 pm
And all those socialists living the American dream of setting up their small businesses are screwed too then.

And no... not everyone can.  Not everyone is as well-educated or skilled or smart or not learning disabled or not handicapped.

"Dear?"  Is this thread becoming Ozzie and Harriet?

It is better than saying look, cunt....isnt it?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:33:33 pm
But, doll,
 It IS a fact.

If you wish to start with me, please don't.

And she WAS being snippy.

OMG,

Purse falls out of the mouth of a Log Cabin Republican!

I truely thought I'd seen it all!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:33:58 pm
It is better than saying look, cunt....isnt it?

No.  In my homeland "cunt" is a term of endearment.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:34:26 pm
Well Jeff would tell a rape victim who contracted Aids that shit happens so I guess he'd have to try to win that lottery he was talking about!

We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:34:33 pm
I am not well educated but have a job I enjoy that has good benefits that I pay a portion of.

Why do you think this is so wrong?
I am just a plain guy who is responsible for myself. Don't diss me for that, please.

Jeff

Well Jeff, we agree on one thing.   You aren't well educated!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:35:05 pm
No.  In my homeland "cunt" is a term of endearment.

I love that!!

At least you have a sense of humor! LOL

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: xtremepms on January 31, 2007, 10:36:23 pm
We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

I am not sure how a rape victim is to be blamed for being raped, please enlighten me.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:37:01 pm
We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

Paging Ayn Rand... paging Ayn Rand...
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:37:13 pm
Well Jeff, we agree on one thing.   You aren't well educated!

That was uncalled for. I demand an apology.

How sad you resort to that to make your own pathetic self feel good about yourself.

Consider youself reported.

Good Evening.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:37:45 pm
I am not sure how a rape victim is to be blamed for being raped, please enlighten me.

Wrong place, wrong time.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:38:38 pm
Wrong place, wrong time.

** sound of WWII fighter jet engines going out... and crashing **

Boom.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aztecan on January 31, 2007, 10:38:52 pm
Interesting debate.

Benj, very early in this thread, you broached the subject of public education as a right. It is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. For many years, childhood education was either provided by churches or through private schools.

That said, I think a free - at least to the student  or pupil - public education is a right all should enjoy.

So, too, should healthcare be a right. Whether it is broken down by state or run on a national level, some system could be devised.

Compensation for many health care providers is substantial. Would they be inclined to participate in a universal health care system? Probably not. But not all doctors, nurses, etc., earn $1 million or more a year and surely some would take part in such a system.

The bottom line is people are doing without.

While nobody should be turned away from an emergency room, note I said should, the fact is there is no means for people to access routine or maintenance-level health care without some sort of payor source here in the U.S.

If there were a single-payor health care system, the middle men who are raking in the cash would be eliminated. I won't pretend it would be a perfect system, but it has to be better than what we have now.

There always would be the private practices for those with deep pockets.

I take exception to the idea that people doing without health care are doing so because they have failed to shoulder their responsibilities. I know a business owner who would love any type of health care. He has none. He can't afford it because, as a one-man operation, the costs are beyond his reach.

As far as "shit happens," yes, it does, if we let it.

A judge I knew had a framed saying on the wall in his chambers. It read, "A society is judged not on how it treats its best citizens, but on how it treats its least."

Paying taxes to allow everyone to access adequate health care is one way to help the least in our society. I would be more than willing to do so, both for those whom it would now help and, in a more selfish vein, because one day I will probably be among their ranks.

Of course, these comments are being made by a self-avowed socialist, so take them for what they're worth.

HUGS,

Mark
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: xtremepms on January 31, 2007, 10:39:51 pm
Wrong place, wrong time.

You made the statement, I am just asking for clarification.  I would not want to misunderstand a statement like that.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 10:40:06 pm
xtreme,

I'm afraid you're looking for enlightenment where there is no light.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on January 31, 2007, 10:40:35 pm
We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

Ahh, so someone with a genetic heart defect is responsible for that.  Or is it their parents, or grandparents?   I'm sure all those middle management and clerical staff at Enron thought their medical insurance was pretty safe too.  

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:42:04 pm
Ahh, so someone with a genetic heart defect is responsible for that.  Or is it their parents, or grandparents?   I'm sure all those middle management and clerical staff at Enron thought their medical insurance was pretty safe too. 



And how dare those babies' whose moms drank while they were pregnant be born with FAS? 

The audacity!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: xtremepms on January 31, 2007, 10:42:27 pm
xtreme,

I'm afraid you're looking for enlightenment where there is no light.

I am afraid you are right....
Sad
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:44:36 pm
Interesting debate.


The bottom line is people are doing without.



Exactly.

We're talking about people's lives here... and a lot of people aren't getting care they need (yes, they're getting emergency care... but absolutely nothing preventative) and dying as a result.

People. Are. Dying. Because. The. American. Health. Care. System. Is. Set. Up. To. Make. Money.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:45:56 pm
You made the statement, I am just asking for clarification.  I would not want to misunderstand a statement like that.

I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 10:45:56 pm
We all are responsible for our own well being...be it HIV, be it rape, be it spousal abuse....

No one is to blame for our problems but ourselves. To blame anyone else is childish.

Did you just say an AIDS rape victim is to blame for their "decision" to be raped?

Amazing.  What drug are you on tonight?  I'd like some.

Wrong place, wrong time.

Yes, yes you did. 

We have a moron on line 3!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:48:34 pm
I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff


Because a rape and a car accident are comparable incidents?

I'm sensing a big load of "she had it coming" underneath this philosophy.

This means, we could scrap the entire judicial system!

Everything that happens to you is your fault... so why should we even attempt to punish criminals?  It's their victims who are to blame!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:48:43 pm
Did you just say an AIDS rape victim is to blame for their "decision" to be raped?

Amazing.  What drug are you on tonight?  I'd like some.

Yeah, and he's reporting me for agreeing with the one statement that he made which was sensible!   ; )   Oh Lord, I'm so ashamed!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:48:50 pm
Did you just say an AIDS rape victim is to blame for their "decision" to be raped?

Amazing.  What drug are you on tonight?  I'd like some.

No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:49:29 pm
No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?



Wow.

Just. Fucking. Wow.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:50:00 pm
Yeah, and he's reporting me for agreeing with the one statement that he made which was sensible!   ; )   Oh Lord, I'm so ashamed!

Just stop it already...

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ademas on January 31, 2007, 10:50:20 pm
I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff


So in other words, the rape victim, the accident victim, etc. are sort of "asking for it?" because they are where the are at a particular time?
Wow.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:51:57 pm
Interesting debate.

Benj, very early in this thread, you broached the subject of public education as a right. It is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights. For many years, childhood education was either provided by churches or through private schools.

That said, I think a free - at least to the student  or pupil - public education is a right all should enjoy.

So, too, should healthcare be a right. Whether it is broken down by state or run on a national level, some system could be devised.

Compensation for many health care providers is substantial. Would they be inclined to participate in a universal health care system? Probably not. But not all doctors, nurses, etc., earn $1 million or more a year and surely some would take part in such a system.

The bottom line is people are doing without.

While nobody should be turned away from an emergency room, note I said should, the fact is there is no means for people to access routine or maintenance-level health care without some sort of payor source here in the U.S.

If there were a single-payor health care system, the middle men who are raking in the cash would be eliminated. I won't pretend it would be a perfect system, but it has to be better than what we have now.

There always would be the private practices for those with deep pockets.

I take exception to the idea that people doing without health care are doing so because they have failed to shoulder their responsibilities. I know a business owner who would love any type of health care. He has none. He can't afford it because, as a one-man operation, the costs are beyond his reach.

As far as "shit happens," yes, it does, if we let it.

A judge I knew had a framed saying on the wall in his chambers. It read, "A society is judged not on how it treats its best citizens, but on how it treats its least."

Paying taxes to allow everyone to access adequate health care is one way to help the least in our society. I would be more than willing to do so, both for those whom it would now help and, in a more selfish vein, because one day I will probably be among their ranks.

Of course, these comments are being made by a self-avowed socialist, so take them for what they're worth.

HUGS,

Mark

Interesting Mark,

How bout the persuit of life, liberty and happiness?   How does that play into it? : )



[/quote]
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:52:11 pm
Wow.

Just. Fucking. Wow.



And how did you get infected? Hung out with the wrong people perhaps?

That is what happend to me and it is MY responsibility and no one else is to blame.

All I have to say about you is what a prima donna!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 10:52:23 pm
I don't begrudge our health care system making money.  Hell, I want them to be successful and make plenty of it, so they happily keep doctoring me..

I just think we need a system that provides universal access to basic medical care and medications.

I'm not sure how to get there, but I am sure of this:  Unless we can agree that such a goal is worthy, we're never going to try.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:52:59 pm
So in other words, the rape victim, the accident victim, etc. are sort of "asking for it?" because they are where the are at a particular time?
Wow.

Yep...it is true...think about it.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:53:48 pm
And how did you get infected? Hung out with the wrong people perhaps?

That is what happend to me and it is MY responsibility and no one else is to blame.

All I have to say about you is what a prima donna!

Ad hominem means "you lose" in Latin.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: xtremepms on January 31, 2007, 10:54:00 pm
I believe (however you may not, but that's ok) That everything happens for a reason and that all of us have the choice to put ourselves in situations or not.

In the case of a car accident, a construction accident, a rape, an arguemment...are we not truly in charge of where we are and with who we hang out with?

You may not understand this "uneducated" guy, but think about it for a moment.

Jeff


So when I go to the grocery store to purchase food for my family and I get raped in the parking lot, it is my fault for shopping?  Or rather we should blame my children for being hungry?  
I have no problem with people who do not have formal education, as I am one of them...but lack of an education in no way excuses you from making a blanket statement like that.
I pray no one you love is ever raped.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:54:40 pm
Jeff,

It's clear to me that you are just trying to antagonize people.   Why don't you just leave since you haven't contributed anything rational to this debate?

Please!

Wesley
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:55:41 pm
Ad hominem means "you lose" in Latin.

I love when you say that...I mean every time you say that.

I guess the debate is over since the Queen of All has spoken.

Jeff

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 10:56:54 pm
Yes, let's put bizarre philosophies aside and get back on topic here.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 10:58:36 pm
Jeff,

It's clear to me that you are just trying to antagonize people.   Why don't you just leave since you haven't contributed anything rational to this debate?

Please!

Wesley

I have said what is on my mind, like you have...I am not going away for my opinions...and I guess now must be the time when you expect an apology for my opinions. Well, I am not going to apologize for how I feel.

We need to agree to disagree.
If other peoples opinions antagonize you, you need to get a grip.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on January 31, 2007, 10:58:52 pm
I love when you say that...I mean every time you say that.

I guess the debate is over since the Queen of All has spoken.

Jeff



I've used the expression "ad hominem" on this website three times.

And this would be the second time I've used the expression "ad hominem means 'you lose' in Latin."

And yes, if you have to resort to insulting me to make your point... you lose.  Sorry.

But then again, what do I know?  I'm only extraordinarily attractive and went to William and Mary.   ::)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on January 31, 2007, 10:59:08 pm
Let me just chime in on this since I am a HUGE proponent of universal health care.

I'll start by saying it's not exactly a new idea for the United States.  The first major politician to propose health care as a right was a republican by the name of Teddy Roosevelt. 

As a person with HIV and a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make.  I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simple can't afford all the medicines they need.  People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain.  Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both.  I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them for HIV medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".

If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some shit hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications.  Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens? 

I don't buy that for one instance.  It's not a matter of being unable to do it.  It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.

We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.

We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.

We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.

We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care.

We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.

We rank 37th in health care performance, behind even Columbia, Chile, and Saudi Arabia.

Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.

We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.

We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.

Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.

Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders.  You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network,  skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul?  And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.

The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits.

When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, HIV), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage.  I've been there.  Most of us have at one time or another.  When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god!  I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication."   NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet.


The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 10:59:22 pm
I don't begrudge our health care system making money.  Hell, I want them to be successful and make plenty of it, so they happily keep doctoring me..

I just think we need a system that provides universal access to basic medical care and medications.

I'm not sure how to get there, but I am sure of this:  Unless we can agree that such a goal is worthy, we're never going to try.

I agree Whizzer.   I've never even suggested dismantling it.   I think universal health care is a lofty, but worthy goal.   I also see no reason why this universal system could not operate at a profit given the proper business model.

I would be interested to hear some like Warren Buffet and others weigh in on how they feel.   Especially after donating some 30 billion and change to charity.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 11:01:54 pm
I've used the expression "ad hominem" on this website three times.

And this would be the second time I've used the expression "ad hominem means 'you lose' in Latin."

And yes, if you have to resort to insulting me to make your point... you lose.  Sorry.

But then again, what do I know?  I'm only extraordinarily attractive and went to William and Mary.   ::)

Yes, and it has become tiresome...the latin and the bragging about your school and NOW how "attractive" you are.

Congratulations, I am sure that the whole world is SO proud.

Now,
back to reality......
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AlanBama on January 31, 2007, 11:03:00 pm
very well stated, libvet.   I agree with you 100%
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: koi1 on January 31, 2007, 11:07:07 pm
Stop it with the personal attacks. It offends my delicate sensibilities. You mean outrageous comments have no place here? Oh good grief, but alas I agree there is a moron on line 31. LOL

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 11:12:20 pm
Yeah, and he's reporting me for agreeing with the one statement that he made which was sensible!   ; )   Oh Lord, I'm so ashamed!

I'm going to have to report you for mentioning that again, Austin
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 11:12:50 pm
Let me just chime in on this since I am a HUGE proponent of universal health care.

I'll start by saying it's not exactly a new idea for the United States.  The first major politician to propose health care as a right was a republican by the name of Teddy Roosevelt. 

As a person with HIV and a person who now works in the health care industry, a day doesn't go by that I don't see people having to make choices that NO ONE should ever have to make.  I see people choosing to pay for arthritis medications instead of heart medication or insulin because because they simple can't afford all the medicines they need.  People in that situation often choose to risk an early death with limited pain over a prolonged existence with chronic pain.  Or you get even more heartbreaking examples such as people choosing between treating one illness or another such as the hypertension AND diabetes choosing one medication over the other because they simply cannot afford both.  I also get to see people having their prescriptions sent back to them for HIV medication unfilled for inability to pay, and each time I say to myself "There but for the grace of God go I".

If we can spend 1.2 trillion dollars to invade some shit hole in the middle east that wasn't a threat to us, there is absolutely no reason we can't afford to make sure our people all have access to decent health care and medications.  Every other first world industrialized country has managed it, but somehow, the supposedly greatest country on earth can't figure out how to provide health care to all it's citizens? 

I don't buy that for one instance.  It's not a matter of being unable to do it.  It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.

We pay more per capita than countries with universal health care.

We pay nearly double in just administrative costs of countries that have universal health care.

We get less for our dollar than countries with universal health care.

We still have waiting lists and rationing just like countries with universal health care.

We have 1/5 of our population that doesn't have any health care at all which drives up the costs for all of us when they end up in the hospital or ER.

We rank 37th in health care performance, behind even Columbia, Chile, and Saudi Arabia.

Our competitiveness as a country is affected because we are the only first world industrialized country that puts the burden for health care on employers.

We have an enormous number of people who end up in bankruptcy due to medical bills.

We have a significant percentage of population that has to choose between food and medicine.

Doctors require a staff of accountants and medical billers to sort through the thousands of insurance plans.

Insurance companies are level of bureaucracy that profits off the health care system to enrich shareholders.  You often hear the claim that universal health care would create some huge bloated bureaucracy, but what could possibly be more bloated than 4000 different health insurance plans each with it's own payment schedule, each with it's own paperwork, each with it's own list of what it will cover and what it won't, each with it's list of which doctors, which labs, which hospitals are in network or out of network,  skimming an enormous amount of money off our health care dollar while paying their CEOs enormous sums of money profiting of the sick like a ghoul?  And it's a fact that the average insurance company takes 15 to 20 percent of your health care dollar in administrative costs compared to the "overly bloated" Medicare that takes on 2% of your health care dollar for administrative costs.

The current system in the US stifles innovation and the entrepreneurial spirit in America because too many Americans cannot afford to leave their current jobs that have health benefits.

When people in America lose their job due to no fault of their own, if they have any kind of condition that requires routine medical coverage (diabetes, asthma, hypertension, HIV), we put people's lives at risk because they have to go without coverage.  I've been there.  Most of us have at one time or another.  When my job was outsourced to India by Microsoft, so Bill Gates could put another billion into his bank account, the only thought I had was "Oh my god!  I am so screwed and will probably die because I can't afford my medication."   NOBODY should have to face that in the richest country on the planet.


The bottom line for me is that while neither system is without flaws, universal health care would be a much better bargain for everyone who relies on insurance to cover medical care than the current system.


Libvet,

You've done an excellent job of arguing the case for universal health care.   Having previously worked in the healthcare industry I couldn't agree more with you regarding the beuracracy and bloated mess that has been created.

I was so disgusted from my experience in that industry with all the greed and corruption.    It still sickens me.   But, hey a job is a job.  

The biggest opponent to any universal healthcare system are these rich, greedy and powerful mega corporations.    How anyone can sit back and believe they are going to continue to meet the needs in this nation when we have some 40 million plus uninsured is beyond me.

You've so many good points I am not sure where to start, but you've done a beautiful job of bringing this thread back on track and thanks.  Hopefully, you've helped open some minds.

Wesley
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on January 31, 2007, 11:13:34 pm

 It is simply a matter of greed and unwillingness to do so.



That is SO true.

So many are unable to empathize with the condition others are in.  We have examples on these very pages.

I too have those feelings of "there but by the grace of God go I".  I have them every day.  Do others?  Are there enough of us to bring about a change?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on January 31, 2007, 11:15:14 pm
No drugs, dear, but putting oneself in harms way is not the brightest thing to do now is it?



Yes, how I dare I walk down a sidewalk minding my own business and get raped.  How silly of me to leave my house and go to work.  What in the world was I thinking?  Oh, right... gotta pimp for that health insurance.  My fault!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 11:15:48 pm
I'm going to have to report you for mentioning that again, Austin

Please do!   I want to go to the principal's office.

Do you think he'll spank me cause that could be HOT?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: thunter34 on January 31, 2007, 11:18:03 pm
Sorry if I am continuing a highjack, but...


Dear Jeff64:  I double-dog dare you to go through with 'reporting'  Wesley to the Moderators.  Nothing I have read to date on this forum by ANY other poster in ANY thread has offended me to the degree of your asinine comment (oh, hell...which one?  there are so many to choose from here) declaring a woman who has been raped to be at fault for it.  

DISCLOSURE:  I had much more to say on this one, but have found the reserve to edited prior to posting.


Incredibly thankful that I have been spared having to know you in person.  On behalf of one of my neighbor's daughters, how dare you?

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 11:20:07 pm
That is SO true.

So many are unable to empathize with the condition others are in.  We have examples on these very pages.

I too have those feelings of "there but by the grace of God go I".  I have them every day.  Do others?  Are there enough of us to bring about a change?

I think there are enough to bring about a change.   Especially with all the seniors (people who vote).   Just depends on how it's presented and you know how the conservative right wing love to scare the senior citizens.   

Now, I'm no fan of Hilary and haven't heard her plan, but somehow I don't see it doing much for any of us.   
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aztecan on January 31, 2007, 11:21:58 pm
Hey Libvet,

You did a much better job promoting universal health care than I did.

Wesley, I think it goes hand-in-hand with "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Or was that the spanking I was thinking of?  ;)

HUGS,

Mark
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on January 31, 2007, 11:22:12 pm
I have never understood this American obsession with "taxes".  It's as if these "taxes" vanish into thin air with no benefit to anyone.  I see the benefits of my taxes when I go to the doctor, visit a hospital, ride our transit system etc.  

Perhaps because of the harsher climate, the Canadian mindset is quite different.  There's a greater emphasis on the collective good.  Let's face it, nobody becomes a success without the support of their community, in one way or another.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 11:27:41 pm
Hey Libvet,

You did a much better job promoting universal health care than I did.

Wesley, I think it goes hand-in-hand with "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Or was that the spanking I was thinking of?  ;)

HUGS,

Mark


LOL, I was distracted.    What's that saying?   Crazy is as Crazy does!   

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on January 31, 2007, 11:31:08 pm
I agree our gov't spends much too much $$ on unecessary things. And I agree everyone needs health coverage. No not all health coverage is equal, either.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that's what the USA is, make it or break it, or just hang on. No one was ever promised a good life here.

I'm sure I am just as uneducated as Jeff. I have a great job, excellent retirement (God willing I make it another 12 years). A decision I made almost 19 years ago.

I have an aunt who works 3 p/t jobs. She buys her own health coverage thru a NYS program, 3 or 4 hundred/month. Guess what? She chose early on, to work for herself. It didn't pan out to the fortunes she was hoping for, but she wouldn't go get a regular job. No pension/retirement either.

My father (may he RIP) was a mechanic. He worked for dealerships when he left the service. New demo to drive all the time, health coverage, etc. He decided he didn't want to work for the man, and went into business for himself. No health insurance, and damn, not even enough $ to support himself in a decent lifestyle. But he was able to stay afloat and live out his life working for himself. When he got older, and sicker, he had to get insurance. When he died, we found out that he was paying over $900 bucks a month for H.I., and not even a good policy. 25 years ago, he met a great woman, and they lived together for 25 years til she passed. All that time it was my fathers decision not to marry her. It was so sensible, she made more $ and had so much more than him. She also had employer sponsored H.I. he could have been on all those years. but his pride (wtf?) kept him from doing it. He wouldn't even marry her on her death bed (as she requested) so he could inherit her house and everything, just to make things easier for him. Pride. He was forced out of the house within 6 months as her sister inherited the house.

These are decisions people make. No not everyone is fortunate enough to have several choices. If you want to work for yourself, start your own mom and pop place, that's great!! Go for it. But if it's a constant struggle, give up the dream, and find a better way.

I will state here that I do not agree that a rape victim is at fault.

I don't know but one Canadian, and we were chatting online last year at tax time. I was FLOORED by the amount of income tax he was paying.  I've yet to hear anyone chime in about what Canadians and others with Uni HC are paying for it in cash.

Perhaps they don't have as much expendable cash after taxes to indulge in the unhealthy recreational life choice we can here in the US, so their life expectancy is longer?!?! Perhaps it's just the colder weather. ;)

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the
system.

Just a few of my thoughts as I've read through this thread.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on January 31, 2007, 11:52:03 pm

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the
system.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but that 40 million number is just people who NEVER get health insurance.  82 million non-elderly Americans go without health insurance during some portion of the year and you can bet they sweat it out hoping they don't get in an accident or get sick.

Another 80 million people are already on medicare or medicaid.

So we have 160 million people already dealing with LACK of health insurance or requiring public assistance for health care.

Then you have people who do have health care that just support the idea of universal health.

And you have the people who are in jobs like mine, in the health care field, where are profits are soaring, but when the cost of our health care premiums is pitted against what we get for a raise this year, we are actually bringing home LESS money.

And polls currently show that around 62 percent of Americans support universal health care.

That number will only increase as our health care costs continue to skyrocket.



Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 11:52:24 pm
Sorry if I am continuing a highjack, but...


Dear Jeff64:  I double-dog dare you to go through with 'reporting'  Wesley to the Moderators.  Nothing I have read to date on this forum by ANY other poster in ANY thread has offended me to the degree of your asinine comment (oh, hell...which one?  there are so many to choose from here) declaring a woman who has been raped to be at fault for it. 

DISCLOSURE:  I had much more to say on this one, but have found the reserve to edited prior to posting.


Incredibly thankful that I have been spared having to know you in person.  On behalf of one of my neighbor's daughters, how dare you?


[/quote

If you met me, you would like me.
I have my opinions, yes, but I am truly not heartless...honest.
I make the best cassoulet you have ever had...

For those I have offended with my opinions, I apologize,
For those who cannot tolerate opinions, I do not.

I would LOVE universal healthcare...unfortunately it will never work in the US...I would love to get free healthcare! Who wouldn't!

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on January 31, 2007, 11:53:06 pm
I agree our gov't spends much too much $$ on unecessary things. And I agree everyone needs health coverage. No not all health coverage is equal, either.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that's what the USA is, make it or break it, or just hang on. No one was ever promised a good life here.

I'm sure I am just as uneducated as Jeff. I have a great job, excellent retirement (God willing I make it another 12 years). A decision I made almost 19 years ago.

I have an aunt who works 3 p/t jobs. She buys her own health coverage thru a NYS program, 3 or 4 hundred/month. Guess what? She chose early on, to work for herself. It didn't pan out to the fortunes she was hoping for, but she wouldn't go get a regular job. No pension/retirement either.

My father (may he RIP) was a mechanic. He worked for dealerships when he left the service. New demo to drive all the time, health coverage, etc. He decided he didn't want to work for the man, and went into business for himself. No health insurance, and damn, not even enough $ to support himself in a decent lifestyle. But he was able to stay afloat and live out his life working for himself. When he got older, and sicker, he had to get insurance. When he died, we found out that he was paying over $900 bucks a month for H.I., and not even a good policy. 25 years ago, he met a great woman, and they lived together for 25 years til she passed. All that time it was my fathers decision not to marry her. It was so sensible, she made more $ and had so much more than him. She also had employer sponsored H.I. he could have been on all those years. but his pride (wtf?) kept him from doing it. He wouldn't even marry her on her death bed (as she requested) so he could inherit her house and everything, just to make things easier for him. Pride. He was forced out of the house within 6 months as her sister inherited the house.

These are decisions people make. No not everyone is fortunate enough to have several choices. If you want to work for yourself, start your own mom and pop place, that's great!! Go for it. But if it's a constant struggle, give up the dream, and find a better way.

I will state here that I do not agree that a rape victim is at fault.

I don't know but one Canadian, and we were chatting online last year at tax time. I was FLOORED by the amount of income tax he was paying.  I've yet to hear anyone chime in about what Canadians and others with Uni HC are paying for it in cash.

Perhaps they don't have as much expendable cash after taxes to indulge in the unhealthy recreational life choice we can here in the US, so their life expectancy is longer?!?! Perhaps it's just the colder weather. ;)

If there are 40 mil here without H.I., out of 300, I dare say we don't have enough votes to change the
system.

Just a few of my thoughts as I've read through this thread.


Hey LongIslander,

You bring up a valid point.   Well actually several.

First, let me say one's level of formal education has nothing to do with actual intelligence.   Doctor's degrees don't impress me.   However, in no way could you be so unintelligent as Jeff.    

Actually, I was thinking it'd be great if we could get him to represent the conservative side of the debate and put him on FOX, CNN and the rest.   Boy, that would all but insure a universal healthcare system. ; )

I think you've brought some excellent material to the debate.   I don't think anyone is opposed to people who work hard.   Three in my family are self employed and I understand your thoughts on that.

With regard to the income tax level paid out by your Canadian friend.   Hmm, it'd be interest to find out what he makes and compare it to someone here in the US and see once we add in all the health insurance premiumns, copays, deductibles etc for a similar individual and see just what the difference actually is compared to overall cost of living and quality of life.

Thanks for the great input.   You've given me more to ponder yet.

Wesley
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on January 31, 2007, 11:54:57 pm
Hey LongIslander,

You bring up a valid point.   Well actually several.

First, let me say one's level of formal education has nothing to do with actual intelligence.   Doctor's degrees don't impress me.   However, in no way could you be so unintelligent as Jeff.   

Actually, I was thinking it'd be great if we could get him to represent the conservative side of the debate and put him on FOX, CNN and the rest.   Boy, that would all but insure a universal healthcare system. ; )

I think you've brought some excellent material to the debate.   I don't think anyone is opposed to people who work hard.   Three in my family are self employed and I understand your thoughts on that.

With regard to the income tax level paid out by your Canadian friend.   Hmm, it'd be interest to find out what he makes and compare it to someone here in the US and see once we add in all the health insurance premiumns, copays, deductibles etc for a similar individual and see just what the difference actually is compared to overall cost of living and quality of life.

Thanks for the great input.   You've given me more to ponder yet.

Wesley

Can we please stop pointing out how much of an unintelligent person I am?

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Lisa on January 31, 2007, 11:55:25 pm
Brava Libvet.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 01, 2007, 12:07:33 am
Jeff,  I wasn't putting down your lack of education, I'm right there with you. Hope you didn't think otherwise.

I'm quite fortunate in the career path I ended up with. I pay $19 bi-weekly for H.I. (494/year), then my union reimburses me $150 of that at the end of the year.

I pay $12 co-pays for Dr visits. I call whenever and whomever is in the plan, and no referrals needed.

Generic script co-pays $5, others $30. AGain, at year end, my union will reimburse me up to $150 for Dr. Co-pays, and up to $150 for my script co-pays. I'm a lucky one, and I know it. Especially when I see a thread started by Lis ( i think it was hers) that her family is without HI all of a sudden.


The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on February 01, 2007, 12:10:02 am
There's no question Canadians pay more in taxes that those in the USA.  But then again, nobody here is paying $900 a month for health insurance :o

Medical care aside, 32,800,000 people spread out over the 2nd largest country on earth will always be paying more in taxes than those in the USA.  Its the cost of delivering services to a small spread-out population.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on February 01, 2007, 12:10:16 am
Jeff,  I wasn't putting down your lack of education, I'm right there with you. Hope you didn't think otherwise.

I'm quite fortunate in the career path I ended up with. I pay $19 bi-weekly for H.I. (494/year), then my union reimburses me $150 of that at the end of the year.

I pay $12 co-pays for Dr visits. I call whenever and whomever is in the plan, and no referrals needed.

Generic script co-pays $5, others $30. AGain, at year end, my union will reimburse me up to $150 for Dr. Co-pays, and up to $150 for my script co-pays. I'm a lucky one, and I know it. Especially when I see a thread started by Lis ( i think it was hers) that her family is without HI all of a sudden.


The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.

Lonislander...I wasn't replying to your post...all is good.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:16:21 am
Good Point Northern.   That's another factor when figuring out the overall equality or lack of.

Long Island, you are damn lucky to have a plan like you do.   I am paying something like close to $300 a month not including all the copays, deductibles and misc. bullshit.   

And I've got all the other bills to.   Just like so many of the others should anything go awry with that insurance I could face complete financial ruin.   

Everyone has to pay higher bills when all these people loosing health care go bankrupt.  : (
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 12:17:44 am
There's no question Canadians pay more in taxes that those in the USA.  But then again, nobody here is paying $900 a month for health insurance :o

Medical care aside, 32,800,000 people spread out over the 2nd largest country on earth will always be paying more in taxes than those in the USA.  Its the cost of delivering services to a small spread-out population.

I, for one, would be perfectly willing to accept an increase in taxes to fund a universal health insurance plan in the US.

It's amazing how when this topic comes up, Americans start bitching, whining, pissing, and moaning about taxes... but did anyone make the "cha-ching" cash register sound every time a cruise missile flew into Iraq?  Never do I hear about how high taxes are when discussing American military prowess... when it comes to killing foreign civilians... it seems that we're willing to do that at any price... when it comes to insuring our poor... then it's too expensive.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 01, 2007, 12:22:18 am
Benj, I'm pretty sure you're not paying the amount of taxes we're talking about. When you do, get back to us.

I don't believe I ever said I was all for the $$ spent on the war, nor did I condone the space program $, or anything else you want to bring up that our Gov't is funding with our tax dollars.

In fact, I started my first reply saying so.

Take out half the $$ you make, and see if you can continue to hop around the country on trips, or even continue to afford to smoke or do occasional recreational drugs, and still eat.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on February 01, 2007, 12:22:32 am
...The guy in Canada and I made just about the same amount of $ (him a bit more) but he paid 3 times what I pay for federal inome tax. Mind you, I have many deductions thanks to the house, 401K contr's and stuff. But he also owns his own home in Canada. I don't know what type of deductions homes qualify for there, but I do believe he paid more property tax than I do, and I have a bigger unattached house than he does.

I t would be great to hear about this end of it from someone there.

Mortage payments are not tax deductible in Canada, it would be discriminatory against renters ;) Contributions to an RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) are tax deductible.  Property tax varies by municipality.

Apropos of nothing at all, I've always liked this cartoon:


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: David_CA on February 01, 2007, 12:24:18 am
We're extremely inefficient.  Why?  Because with private insurance the administrative costs are thoroughly redundant across 50 states.  That is where all the money goes... not to the doctors, but to the CEO's and the massive administrative apparatus.  A single payer system like Canada's has one system handling all the paper work and is much more efficient.


I definitely agree with the waste of resources of redundant administration.  I've never understood why we're supposed to be 'One Nation', but laws, regulations, and programs vary so much from state to state.  Maybe instead of the idea of socialized health care, some sort of effecient nationwide Medicaid program that is uniform would go over a bit better here.

David
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 01, 2007, 12:24:32 am
lol, cute pic. I'm sure many on this site wouldn't mind that scenario at all ;) ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 12:25:34 am
Benj, I'm pretty sure you're not paying the amount of taxes we're talking about. When you do, get back to us.

I don't believe I ever said I was all for the $$ spent on the war, nor did I condone the space program $, or anything else you want to bring up that our Gov't is funding with our tax dollars.

In fact, I started my first reply saying so.

Take out half the $$ you make, and see if you can continue to hop around the country on trips, or even continue to afford to smoke or do occasional recreational drugs, and still eat.

Of course I don't pay the taxes you do.  I don't own property.

But I'm an American citizen, too.

My voice counts just as much as anyone else's... and the fact remains that it's pathetic that the richest country in the world allegedly "can't afford" to provide universal health care.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 12:27:58 am
I definitely agree with the waste of resources of redundant administration.  I've never understood why we're supposed to be 'One Nation', but laws, regulations, and programs vary so much from state to state.  Maybe instead of the idea of socialized health care, some sort of effecient nationwide Medicaid program that is uniform would go over a bit better here.

David

Which is a single payer system, same as what Canada has or close to it.  That was my point.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Boo Radley on February 01, 2007, 12:32:39 am
Quote from: ademas
So in other words, the rape victim, the accident victim, etc. are sort of "asking for it?" because they are where the are at a particular time?
Wow.

Yep...it is true...think about it.

You're so right, Jeff,  I've always said if a woman is being raped why doesn't she just lie back and enjoy it?  It's her fault for having a vagina, anyway.

Boo
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:33:49 am
Mortage payments are not tax deductible in Canada, it would be discriminatory against renters ;) Contributions to an RRSP (registered retirement savings plan) are tax deductible.  Property tax varies by municipality.

Apropos of nothing at all, I've always liked this cartoon:


You know I have enough damn deductions.   I've always felt that not allowing renters the same right is somewhat discriminatory; however, I would side that their is the incentive of owning and being productive because of that mortgage deduction.

I don't know what others are paying, but Texas is horrible for property taxes.  Absolutely, out of control.   I'm paying for golf courses at schools and God knows what all.   I fail to see how that qualifies as education.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 01, 2007, 12:36:34 am
Austin, education is a WHOLE 'NOTHER ball park, my friend. A whole new thread for that~ ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:40:34 am
Don't even get me started on the ball parks! ;)   LOL.   Ok, clearly time for me to hit the hay.   Nite everyone.  It's been a fun and lively debate and I will look forward to seeing what has transpired by tomorrow and see if anyone has solved the problem. ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 12:48:06 am
Well, I for one learned a lot tonight.

I learned that if a woman is raped, it's her fault.

And I learned that people who pay more taxes should have more say in how the government spends the people's money (perhaps we could institute an "American Citizen Standard," "American Citizen Gold," and "American Citizen Platinum" program for people depending on how much money they make, so they can get more bang for their buck from the government) than what I think.

I also learned that I really need to find a nice Canadian to marry. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: fearless on February 01, 2007, 12:56:51 am
hey Longislander,

I won't give you exact numbers, and I'm in Aus, but we have a taxpayer funded health care system.

I pay 26.5% of my income in taxes. On top of this I pay an additional 1.5% Medicare levy, to fund our health care system.
As I am considered a 'high' income earner, I am also obliged to take out private patient hospital cover, or pay an additional levy of 1.0% of my income into Medicare. My private patient hospital cover costs me about $500 a year. For me, a visits to the doctor attract a co-pay of about $20 (some other docs it is $0), and for a script I have a co-pay of about $25/30.

We have no tax deductions for simply owning a house, nor do we pay land or property tax on our place of residence.

There is no such thing as 'free' health care. It is either paid for through taxes, the employer or the individual. And, while governments are usually considered wasteful and inefficient, one thing they don't like spending money on is health care. This means they are always trying to find ways to make savings - negotiating cheaper prices for drugs with US companies, and spending $ on prevention to keep people out of the system in the first place eg effective HIV campaigns rather than abstinence.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Lisa on February 01, 2007, 12:57:23 am
I've personally always despised my vagina, but apparently no where near as much as others. ;D
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Boo Radley on February 01, 2007, 01:30:20 am
And I learned that people who pay more taxes should have more say in how the government spends the people's money (perhaps we could institute an "American Citizen Standard," "American Citizen Gold," and "American Citizen Platinum" program for people depending on how much money they make, so they can get more bang for their buck from the government) than what I think.

Silly child, that system has been in existence for years.  It's called Capitalism.  We're all just commodities, or, as our beloved Edina put it, "industry fodder."

Boo

P.S.  If there's a warmer part of Canada I'll move and attain citizenship, then adopt you.  Just as long as there's not too much snow...

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 01:35:31 am
The reason American taxes are so high:  MILITARY... nuf said

But hey, if we didn't spend so much money on the Pentagon we couldn't invade a country every 10 years looking for fictitious mushroom clouds

Priorities folks... gotta keep Lockheed Martin hummin' along
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Lisa on February 01, 2007, 02:30:32 am
Lockheed...poo    Haliburton, now that's the one! :-X
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: joemutt on February 01, 2007, 02:31:14 am
In my opinion, very humble at that, healthcare is an inalienable human right.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: newt on February 01, 2007, 03:25:17 am
I find it odd, living in a country which set up its socialised health system with a loan from the US ( :)) after WWII, where, after the Queen, the NHS is our most cherished institution (and biggest employer), that the US has people in need of lifesaving medicine on waiting lists for the drugs.  Re: "personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag", we live as long, if not a bit longer, in the UK compared to the US for half the per head expenditure on healthcare.  I do not say everything is perfect, you can't get an MRI at the drop of a hat, the chairs ain't always comfy, clinics can be a bit shabby etc, but as far as essential medical interventions go, I wouldn't be anywhere else.  Esp. for HIV. Even the most hardline conservative politicians say "if you want to get elected, don't fuck with the NHS".

- matt

Now playing: Radio 4, Today programme
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 01, 2007, 05:26:58 am
This debate ends up being more about national pride than health care.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Boo Radley on February 01, 2007, 05:55:24 am
Quote from: xtremepms
I am not sure how a rape victim is to be blamed for being raped, please enlighten me.

Wrong place, wrong time.

So my 67 year old aunt, who was raped repeatedly by a man who broke into her house and terrorized her for several hours, was responsible because she was in the wrong place (her home) at the wrong time (a weekday evening)?

Please try to explain the ethical, dare I even say moral, basis of your opinion. 

Boo
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: wellington on February 01, 2007, 06:25:48 am
I find threads like this interesting, no so much for the conclusions they attempt to reach in debate but for their illustration of how murky and deep the water often is. Life's not always cake and I'd still not want to give up my Canadian healthcare system, flawed in some respects as it is. Is anything ever perfect?

And on the topic of rape, no one ever asks to be raped. It's violent. It's criminal. if you make the judgement that someone has put themselves in harms way, then it behooves you, as a good citizen, to help protect their rights and liberties, as you would expect anyone to do for you. if that is not what you'd expect from others, it's time to go live by yourself on an island somewhere and check-out of society. Social obligation, and all that ;}
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Razorbill on February 01, 2007, 06:34:30 am
Personally, I prefer a mixed approach.  Although competition and the marketplace have over accelerated costs, it has produced a system that is excellent for those covered. i favor the continuance of this system of employer based healthcare.  Certainly is one good reason to work hard and get a good job.  However the poor and disabled can't be left hanging.  There needs to be a comprehensive system of care for those who truly can't care for themselves, especially kids.  But if your asking me to get in line with everybody else for healthcare, like one big happy human family, I'll pass.  Nothing socialized or totally government run will amount to a cup of warm spit in my opinion.  Mediocrity isn't good enough for me.  Unfortunately it may be all there is for others.  I hope that can be improved.  The American model affords people ownership and pride in their own self-reliance.  I like it.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: dtwpuck on February 01, 2007, 06:38:51 am
I would write a dissertation of my own... but everything that needs to be said has been done so by Libvet, and more succintly than I would have been able to.  Nice job.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 06:50:33 am
I guess that I am the only person in the forums from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts which, as I thought people knew by now, has voted to require health insurance of every resident by July 2007.  Yes, that compulsory thing again from another thread. :)  The way it is working so far is that the Connector, the agency created to sort things for residents, first enrolled those making at or under 100% of the Federal poverty level, meaning that they qualify here for MassHealth a/k/a Medicaid.  Starting 1 January 2007, enrollment began for those making above 100% but at or under 300% of the Federal poverty level.  Companies which insure under a certain percentage of employees will be paying (I think it's) $295.00/employee.  

Problems have, of course, started to leak out.  First the premiums which our former govenor assumed would be around $200 something came in at $380.00/month for someone earning at the 300% level.  The monthly premiums, by design, are sliding scale based on actual income.  Politicians are screaming that something has to be done, that the premiums are too high for people to buy insurance.  So, having allowed the concept to proceed by telling insurance companies the minimum coverage allowed, the this and the that which makes a policy, lawmakers are now thinking that they will have to, as with car insurance here, determine the premiums allowed instead of the coverage and see what insurance companies come up with.  

More details.  The Connector works with the four insurance companies which have stepped up to the plate and directs residents to them, hopefully sorting out the pluses and minuses of each with each resident.  This has nothing to do with HDAP, which is the MA version of ADAP.  

So I would keep an eye on the Commonwealth, given its size, versus California which is also about to step into universal health insurance/healthcare, because if we continue to have problems, you know that things will be worse elsewhere.  Yes, this could work with the President's proposal since the deduction allowed would be for MA premiums.  Win
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 01, 2007, 06:57:46 am
philly267, I believe you are off a few million on your estimated UK populations. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pope0806.pdf (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pope0806.pdf)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 07:14:29 am
I enjoy debates like this.  It makes me think and rethink my thoughts, positions and understand of the topic.  What I do NOT like is when other debaters stop debating and start attacking others because they don't like their opinions.  Feel free to "attack" a line of reasoning, but let's leave the personalities out of it. 
I mean -- really -- debate is healthy and attacking someone personally is NOT going to make them turn a bit more introspective -- it's just going to make them dig in their heels. 
If you ask me -- this sort of behavior is what is causing the stagnation in our political process.  No one, but no one is willing to say that maybe the "other side" has a good point.

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 07:43:19 am
I enjoy debates like this.  It makes me think and rethink my thoughts, positions and understand of the topic.  What I do NOT like is when other debaters stop debating and start attacking others because they don't like their opinions.  Feel free to "attack" a line of reasoning, but let's leave the personalities out of it. 
I mean -- really -- debate is healthy and attacking someone personally is NOT going to make them turn a bit more introspective -- it's just going to make them dig in their heels. 
If you ask me -- this sort of behavior is what is causing the stagnation in our political process.  No one, but no one is willing to say that maybe the "other side" has a good point.

Mike


I support Mike on this totally and have taken the liberty, before I got here and read his post, to post the same thing in the ADAP/compulsory work/volunteer thread.  Win
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 08:05:19 am
I was just thinking through this thread while in the shower (I do my best thinking in the shower).

Universal Health Care – funded by the gov’t is a worthy goal, but is fraught with unintended consequences.  For example:

Where does a lot of the money go that feeds the “administrative costs” of insurance companies?  To pay the salaries of office workers, analysts, phone reps, etc.  These people will find themselves unemployed.  So they may have health insurance, but may end up with no place to live or food to eat.

The gov’t is going to require a consolidation of health care facilities in order to get a cost savings.  Many, many more people out of work.

As our taxes are raised to meet this cost, there is going to a period of time where consumers will stop consuming – likely causing other business to lay workers off.  Now some of this may be offset, by the savings in healthcare expenses, but business being business, I wouldn’t count on altruism here.

Now, this is not meant to argue against the goal, but it is meant to have proponents of a wholesale switch to gov’t funded care realize it would come at an enormous cost – perhaps only a temporary one, but a real one.  A switch to government funded healthcare is not the panacea it may seem to be on its face.

The US will not be able to jump into this model – it will have to evolve over time.  Perhaps the Massachusetts model is a good one to watch as it utilizes the current infrastructure.  Over time, we can move in another direction if it makes sense. This will lessen some of these other consequences.

Also, why are we all only taking a US view??  Doesn’t the whole world have a “basic human right to health care”?  Perhaps we should shooting for that too – after all we are, by far, the richest nation on earth.  This last point is just meant to show that we can’t solve all problems in a big jump.  We certainly should be working toward it, but it will unfortunately need to be done in steps - likely baby steps.

I’m off to work, my employer does require effort from me in order to receive my insurance  ::) – I’ll look forward to hearing comments on these thoughts when I get home tonite.

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 08:57:09 am
Oh yeah – one more “unintended consequence” of a wholesale switch to gov’t funded Universal Health Care.  All of the folks who expressed concern in another thread around mandatory names reporting for HIV; if the gov’t is paying, they are going to know what we all have.

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Andy Velez on February 01, 2007, 09:46:11 am
HEY! LISTEN UP!

Again what started out as a serious subject has picked up a number of putdowns in rapid time. You guys know which ones of you have veered off from expressing opinions to sniping back and forth. COOL IT! NOW!

Having someone make a snotty remark to you doesn't give you license to respond in kind. If you can't just let it go then report it to us moderators.

Otherwise as we used to say way back when, "you're cruisin' for a bruisin.'"

This thread has grown very quickly since it was started only yesterday, which is an indication about strongly people feel about the issue. There's nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary. Just keep it civilized, please.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: squareman on February 01, 2007, 10:15:46 am
Mmm just thought I would put some European input here. Living in Belgium we have socialized healthcare.
Basically the system is similar to the german, austrian or scandinavian ones.

There seems to be a misunderstanding that socialized health care means waiting lists etc... etc... This is not at all the case the almost the entirety of the healthcare market is private (doctors, hospitals...). So supply and demand are in a good balance.

When you get treatment in a hospital or by a doctor you get paid back (very quickly usually within a couple of days) about 90% of your expenses. You can privately insure yourself to get the rest covered or if you want some more luxury if your are in hospital. When you buy medication abouth the same amount is immediately deducted from the counterprice. Live saving meds (for diabetics or hiv etc...) is reimbursed fully.

How does the government pay for that? The only thing that happens is that the government takes 13.7% of everyones gross wage to fund amongst others this system. Everyone is covered. Every single citizen.

And that is because generally european society does view healthcare as a right. And you can get private insurances to get additional luxurys, which many people do take.

It is not an easy system and the government is often finding ways to make sure the medical budget does not spin out of control. (Ofcourse every patient wants the newest medication or technology to be treated and those are always the most expensive ones). However generally government is able to keep that budget in check by making it clearer to people which hospitals are more affordable and by guaranteing a check on the quality of those hospitals. (and believe me the most expensive ones are not the ones giving the best treatment). Making people pay a small part should still incentivize them not to overuse the system.

While I am not a socialist I would never want to do away with such a system. There are other parts of our social system I would change dramatically but not the healthcare system because it works and it is essential to be able to live as a dignified human being. On new years day people generally which each other a happy newyear and good health. So I think healthcare is extremely important.

I am 100% sure the richest country on earth is perfectly able to set up a similar system and pay for it but ofcourse it all depends on what the people in that country want (and whom they elect). I will not judge the system you currently have but I do not understand the argument of some people that you would not be able to afford such a system or that it would cause unemployment or low growth (the scandinavian countries have the highest growth and the most extensive social security system in europe).

It is just a matter of principle. Do the majority of people want such a system. Not do the majority of people think such a system is affordable, which is what you see many people opposed to such a system trying to argue. If you want it, you can have it, there's enough proof of that.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: squareman on February 01, 2007, 10:25:20 am

Also, why are we all only taking a US view??  Doesn’t the whole world have a “basic human right to health care”?  Perhaps we should shooting for that too – after all we are, by far, the richest nation on earth.  This last point is just meant to show that we can’t solve all problems in a big jump.  We certainly should be working toward it, but it will unfortunately need to be done in steps - likely baby steps.


On another note. I agree evolve is better than revolutionize. And indeed universal health care worldwide would be fantastic but it might be best to start on your own turf. The US is the richest nation on earth (and probably will be for some time to come) but the wealth is as unevenly spread as in many 3rd world countries which is also another obstacle to achieving universal health care...
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 01, 2007, 10:30:23 am
I was just thinking through this thread while in the shower (I do my best thinking in the shower).

Universal Health Care – funded by the gov’t is a worthy goal, but is fraught with unintended consequences. 


Of course it would.   I wouldn't be foolish enough to think it wouldn't.  But that is nature of progress.

I rather imagine the wagon makers, tack makers, and farriers felt the same way when Ford opened his factories to mass produce "horseless carriages".

I think a substantial portion of the people displaced by a change in how health care is provided would easily be absorbed into working in the new system. 

I suspect what we would see would be a more lateral move for some into the necessary expansion of the framework needed to provide those services.  Other jobs would be created by the need to provide health care to an additional 45 million people entering the health care system for the first time.

Hell, even my own job might be at risk, but I certainly have the skills to go out and find another job and this time I wouldn't have to do so while wondering if I am going to have to go without meds for a considerable length of time.

Change is certainly not going to be totally painless, I'll grant you.  But there are a couple of things I will not weep over:

1) The loss of the enormous salaries and perks of executives in health insurance companies.

2) The loss of jobs in the field of medical collections and collection agencies.  Having had to deal with them has certainly be a nightmare for me at one point.  When I found out my insurance wouldn't cover my blood work that was inadvertantly sent to the wrong lab, I got a huge bill and it was a few months before I figured out that the insurance would not pay.  I called the medical billing company and offered to pay the bulk of the bill sans 50 dollars which I promised to pay in two weeks on my next payday.  The check cleared and three days later I got a letter from a collection agency demanding payment of the 50 dollars.

Change has consequences, but it seems to me that the benefits will far outweigh the consequences, especially as more and more of our population moves into retirement in the next couple of decades.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Ann on February 01, 2007, 10:46:06 am
As a person who has lived under the American health care system and the UK health care system, I have to say the NHS is far superior to anything the US has to offer. The NHS is not without its problems, but it has, without doubt, far fewer problems than what passes for health care in the US.

I'm no economist, but I would much rather fork out more money in taxes than I would hand that same money to the fat cats at the top of the health insurance companies.

What I don't get is how anyone can not see that benefits to a society as a whole results in better living conditions for each individual in that society. Universal access to decent education results in lower crime rates and better health of the citizens. Universal access to health care results in happier, healthier and more productive citizens. It's ultimately a win-win situation for society as a whole.

I've seen the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" crop up in this thread several times. Is not universal access to health care included in the word "life"? Life depends on adequate health care.

Yes, I believe health care is a right.

Ann
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: thunter34 on February 01, 2007, 10:57:21 am
Thank you, Ann !!  I mean, good grief...that seems like such a no-brainer to me, too.  It almost seems to me that things like healthcare and education should be givens and not even a part of the usual ''should we or shouldn't we'' discussions- at least for basic educatioin and basic healthcare.  A population that is generally healthy in mind and body...isn't that the very least that we should be expecting of and for ourselves?  And you hit it right on the head in your post about how a healthy population results in a happier and more productive population.  We hear all the time about employers trying to force exercise programs for their employees or even refusing to hire smokers into their work force out of the desire to cut medical costs and because they see a healthier work force as more productive...yet somehow people aren't connecting the dots about how access to basic healthcare could have the same effect.  It's boggling to me.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 01, 2007, 10:57:31 am
What I always tire of hearing is "America will never accept socialised medicine ." Recent polling indicates 70% of Americans want universal health care. Opponents always throw up the socialised medicine smoke screen to cloud the issue. Serious proponents realize that it must be a combination of public and private collaboration for universal care to work. I would recommend any forum member who is interested peruse Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon's website for a well thought out health care plan. He unveiled it in the Senate last week to little or no press attention. He brings into focus all of the issues raised here and how they could be addressed. This is no pie-in-the-sky attention getting devise...it is a well researched, thoughtful plan to finally cover ALL Americans like any other civilised nation.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: thunter34 on February 01, 2007, 11:01:29 am
You mean this?


http://wyden.senate.gov/ (http://wyden.senate.gov/)


Auntie Doxie, I think I read that you wanted me to help you with that link somewhere on here.  Was it also in the Activism Forum, too?  Lisa's thread about the March on Washington?  (Shameless plug for the Activism Forum masked as a question)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 11:05:04 am
I find it odd, living in a country which set up its socialised health system with a loan from the US ( :)) after WWII, where, after the Queen, the NHS is our most cherished institution (and biggest employer), that the US has people in need of lifesaving medicine on waiting lists for the drugs.  Re: "personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag", we live as long, if not a bit longer, in the UK compared to the US for half the per head expenditure on healthcare.  I do not say everything is perfect, you can't get an MRI at the drop of a hat, the chairs ain't always comfy, clinics can be a bit shabby etc, but as far as essential medical interventions go, I wouldn't be anywhere else.  Esp. for HIV. Even the most hardline conservative politicians say "if you want to get elected, don't fuck with the NHS".

- matt

Now playing: Radio 4, Today programme



Hey Newt,

You single?   ; )

Wait, forgive me for my lack of historical knowledge.   I had never heard that was how the NHS got started.    Hmm, well anyone in the UK or Canada up for a sham wedding?    


Mike,  trust me, anyone who's ever worked for a health insurance company will be grateful to be out of that job speaking from personal experience.   It took me a while to get my personal sanity and my soul back, but a las I feel redeemed.

Furthermore, your arguement that insuarance companies will flop and all the people will be out of work.   So!    I mean what about Ford Motor Co. laying off people left and right and closing factories.   I'm sure there are countless  examples of other failed industries.


There seems to be some fear of a universal healthcare system that correlates to an irrational fear over losing our "freedom"     Does anyone else know what I mean?  
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 01, 2007, 11:05:55 am
You mean this?


http://wyden.senate.gov/ (http://wyden.senate.gov/)


Auntie Doxie, I think I read that you wanted me to help you with that link somewhere on here.  Was it also in the Activism Forum, too?  Lisa's thread about the March on Washington?  (Shameless plug for the Activism Forum masked as a question)


You da man baby...you da man! Plus Sam's Godfather. ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 01, 2007, 11:16:57 am
you say Government should pay for it? You mean taxpayers should pay for it. Government has no way to produce money other than to take it through taxation or print it.  Printing is also a tax because it is inflation,and devalues  every dollar you own. Whatever services the govt provides,citizens end up paying for one way or the other. Even those who think they are getting something for nothing are really losing because of inflation.
The only way any kind of universal health care is gonna work is if everyone is paying something. we have already seen in our present system how prices escalate without the consumer making the purchasing decisions like he does in every other sector of the economy,now if the guvment gets involved we will all have health services but will those services be the same quality as today? I doubt it. We have all seen how government bureaucracies operate and it is the exact opposite of efficient,no matter which party is running things. The government,unlike the private sector has no way to get rid of the dead wood and inefficiencies and taxpayers can not sell the stock like a shareholder can.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: thunter34 on February 01, 2007, 11:23:47 am
Yes, I mean taxpayers should pay for it.  Fundamental healthcare and education for our U.S. population ...yes, I think that should be a shared expense of the population because I think it serves the greater public interest to do so.  The infortunate thing is that, even though many of are agreed that there shouldn't have to be any increase in taxes to do this- just a better allocation of the funds already received, between that happening and the snowflake in Hell...

I'd bet on the snowflake.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 11:26:28 am
Based on what we have read in our two recent threads, I see two issues: 1) the cost of supporting universal healthcare in the U.S. (which Ann, Squareman and others under national health can help us realise); 2) what we would accept as 'universal healthcare,' what standards must a hospital, medical office and such meet?  If we think about what is a 'school,' in, say NYC, a private versus a public school, or anywhere else, a public or private college, the sometimes all too clear differences between the education someone would get in one versus the other.  (I went to prep. school and a private college while my father taught in the public schools which I attended until the 3rd form.)  Let's think about all those parents who make housing moves based on the school system, how 'good' or 'bad' it is.  

So, as we watch Massachusetts try to deliver on what it is compulsory starting 1 July 2007, let's see, since we already have complaints about premium costs, what the acceptable, affordable 'universal' plans offer.  Win
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 11:31:52 am
As a person who has lived under the American health care system and the UK health care system, I have to say the NHS is far superior to anything the US has to offer. The NHS is not without its problems, but it has, without doubt, far fewer problems than what passes for health care in the US.

I'm no economist, but I would much rather fork out more money in taxes than I would hand that same money to the fat cats at the top of the health insurance companies.

What I don't get is how anyone can not see that benefits to a society as a whole results in better living conditions for each individual in that society. Universal access to decent education results in lower crime rates and better health of the citizens. Universal access to health care results in happier, healthier and more productive citizens. It's ultimately a win-win situation for society as a whole.

I've seen the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" crop up in this thread several times. Is not universal access to health care included in the word "life"? Life depends on adequate health care.

Yes, I believe health care is a right.

Ann


Hey Ann,

I think that was my lame attempt at equating health care with a right.

Ultimately, when you look at it we all are already paying for a universal health care system in the US.   It's a hap hazard mess of Medicaid, Medicare and various other dysfunctional systems loosely pieced together which allows many to fall through the cracks.

I don't know why it's so controversial to create a unified system for all.     Our tax dollars are already being used for these systems whether people like it or not.  Why not overhaul and streamline the system on a bigger scale?   If the private health insurance companies can't compete then perhaps they should fail.

Everyone who's against a universal system claims one of two things.   They will pay higher taxes and health care will be deminished.   Well, call me crazy, but if you didn't have to pay all those health insurance premiums that would offset a great deal of taxes and money for admistrative costs that insurance companies create.    And, so far alll of these people living in countries with universal healthcare seem to feel their system works and are overall happy with it.   How many Americans can say they feel our system is working?

Wesley

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 11:40:18 am
philly267, I believe you are off a few million on your estimated UK populations. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pope0806.pdf (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/pope0806.pdf)

Uh, I mentioned a total EU population, not UK.  The population of the European Union is 456,953,258
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 11:49:04 am
Quote from: jack link=topic=™#msg102361 date=1170346617
we have already seen in our present system how prices escalate without the consumer making the purchasing decisions like he does in every other sector of the economy,now if the guvment gets involved we will all have health services but will those services be the same quality as today? I doubt it. We have all seen how government bureaucracies operate and it is the exact opposite of efficient,no matter which party is running things. The government,unlike the private sector has no way to get rid of the dead wood and inefficiencies and taxpayers can not sell the stock like a shareholder can.


Uh, if the Glorious Free Market™ works so well in the health services sector why is the US so inefficient that we GROSSLY outspend Europeans as a proportion of GDP?  The bottom line is that we are wildly wasting our resources on the current system.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Ann on February 01, 2007, 11:51:45 am
I know I certainly didn't feel the American system was working when I lived under it - and it has only gotten worse in the sixteen years I've been across the pond.

When I was twenty, I worked in a geriatric nursing home as a nurse's aide. I was required to clock out during my half hour for lunch, so my weekly hours didn't go above 37.5 hours. If they had, my employer would have been required by law (at that time, may be different now) to provide a HI policy. I was working full time, for all intents and purposes, but did not have health coverage and did not earn enough to provide my own. I lived in constant fear of getting sick or injured.

This was during the early eighties - and where I lived (NE Ohio), I felt lucky to have a job at all. According to some, I suppose the high rate of unemployment was my own fault. ~sigh~

Ann
 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 01, 2007, 11:52:29 am
I agree that the current system is very inefficient but it is a hybrid system. It isnt pure free market or pure socialism. If insurance companies are taken out of the equation what happens to all the people who work for insurance companies? We might all have health care but our economy would collapse. That would be neat. Then the same people here who want government to pay for everything will be demanding government give them a job. The only way for this to work now is using something like Bush just brought up plus a fund,that everyone pays taxes into,that would be used to insure those who cant afford to pay and those who are insurable(us).
We need to introduce the consumer back into the he altcare market in some fashion. Its the only way to make it efficient. We must have some impetus to choose the lowest priced drug or doctor. There is none now,we just go to whatever Dr. our insurance company tells us to go to and buy whatever drug they tell us to buy. Its the same w ay the government would run it.
If we do some type of universal health care we cant allow pols to do the same thing they have done with SS and medicare.   Both are out of control and have no controls. That is fine in some fantasy land but doesnt work in the real world.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: poet on February 01, 2007, 11:56:17 am
But we are watching as pensions are either underfunded by corporations (until the stock market took off) or Medicare/Social Security are underfunded by the government.  I would agree that money gets thrown around (how do we spell NYC post 9/11) and savings could and would come from rethinking the systems, but I suspect that what someone might Google for us and post is that the tax rates which having been coming down because this, supposedly is what we 'need,' would reverse direction.  How much are Americans, trained like seals sometimes to bark at tax decreases, going to accept if we agree to the Iraq war without the customary tax increases to pay for it?  Win
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 01, 2007, 12:14:09 pm
If we are gonna do government health care it needs to be a separate entity and separate tax. We cant do what we have done in everything else,there has to be a way to track it.
Companies cant do pensions anymore because it just doesnt work, its one of the reason US automakers are in such trouble(along with having no idea what the consumer wants). Only the government can afford pensions and thats because they can tax and inflate. They dont have shareholders they have to account to,they have us.
There should definitely be some type of government plan so people who are unable to be insured can pay into and get insurance.
Maybe its just gonna be a mess no matter which way we go. Here in Houston illegals and people without insurance use emergency rooms as their family doctor.  The county hospitals have something in the range of 70% invoices that are never paid. Thats one reason everything is so expensive in a hospital,only one in three people are paying.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:33:05 pm
Thank you, Ann !!  I mean, good grief...that seems like such a no-brainer to me, too.  It almost seems to me that things like healthcare and education should be givens and not even a part of the usual ''should we or shouldn't we'' discussions- at least for basic educatioin and basic healthcare.  A population that is generally healthy in mind and body...isn't that the very least that we should be expecting of and for ourselves?  And you hit it right on the head in your post about how a healthy population results in a happier and more productive population.  We hear all the time about employers trying to force exercise programs for their employees or even refusing to hire smokers into their work force out of the desire to cut medical costs and because they see a healthier work force as more productive...yet somehow people aren't connecting the dots about how access to basic healthcare could have the same effect.  It's boggling to me.

Thunter, you've brought up some other intersting points.   You know I'm not opposed to the exercise programs at work, but the reason is legit.   It's an attempt to cut costs which makes sense.   

The insurance companies use demographics in order to determine what to charge.   And, the old, fat, and people with HIV and cancer aren't good for profits.   

However, we have laws in this country which claim employers can't discriminate against the old fat people with HIV and cancer.  Yeah, we all know how well those work.

Anyway, my point is companies are actively seeking healthier persons to hire not just for their own benefits, but because of the demographic cost of insuring them.   Many companies in the US are flex funded or some call it self insured, but pay a fee to the insurance company to "administer" the benefits.   Most employees have no idea they are working for a self insured company.   In order to remain competitive with benefits packages for it's employees companies want to keep health benefit costs low, and that means not hiring people who are going to get thier rates jacked up.

My whole point is that with the growning number of seniors that we will have and many even returning to the work force, the present private system will ultimately get worse and worse and worse.   Costs will never go down and will continue to soar with the present private insurance system.

The already overtaxed and ailing medicare program is going to see more and more people signing up for benefits as the population ages.

How long do all of you think we can continue to keep this system semi balanced?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 12:40:56 pm
Mike,  trust me, anyone who's ever worked for a health insurance company will be grateful to be out of that job speaking from personal experience.   It took me a while to get my personal sanity and my soul back, but a las I feel redeemed.

Furthermore, your arguement that insuarance companies will flop and all the people will be out of work.   So!    I mean what about Ford Motor Co. laying off people left and right and closing factories.   I'm sure there are countless  examples of other failed industries.
 

So, first off -- I did work for an insurance company for a number of years (a NOT-For Profit one at that).  I provided laboratory services and then moved on to collecting data of health outcomes for various medical conditions -- to help insure money was spent on improving the lives of patients -- so I am proud of the work I did there.  I no longer work there it is true, but not because I got my "sanity" back -- it's because I make a better salary outside of healthcare.

I am not trying to argue against universal access -- I'm just pointing out that a wholesale move to a gov't funded system would cause a lot of pain.  This would not be about a failed industry, per se -- it would be about the gov't taking over the industry.

So, I'll repeat myself -- this is a very worthy goal, but one that can't be jumped into quickly, without causing a whole lot of pain to a whole lot of new (and some of the same) people.

Also, (from another post -- I can't figure out how to quote from more than 1 at a time), 70% of Americans may want Universal Health Care, but how many of those 70% are willing to pay more taxes for it?  It's easy for people on either side of an argument to throw out numbers that help their "side", but it's important to show additional angles.

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 12:44:53 pm
So, first off -- I did work for an insurance company for a number of years (a NOT-For Profit one at that).  I provided laboratory services and then moved on to collecting data of health outcomes for various medical conditions -- to help insure money was spent on improving the lives of patients -- so I am proud of the work I did there.  I no longer work there it is true, but not because I got my "sanity" back -- it's because I make a better salary outside of healthcare.

I am not trying to argue against universal access -- I'm just pointing out that a wholesale move to a gov't funded system would cause a lot of pain.  This would not be about a failed industry, per se -- it would be about the gov't taking over the industry.

So, I'll repeat myself -- this is a very worthy goal, but one that can't be jumped into quickly, without causing a whole lot of pain to a whole lot of new (and some of the same) people.

Also, (from another post -- I can't figure out how to quote from more than 1 at a time), 70% of Americans may want Universal Health Care, but how many of those 70% are willing to pay more taxes for it?  It's easy for people on either side of an argument to throw out numbers that help their "side", but it's important to show additional angles.

Mike

I remember reading something rather humorous.

X-Y= A Big Stink

Where X= what we want from the government (which is everything in the world) and Y= what we're willing to pay for it (not much at all).

But I think fearless has pointed out that he doesn't pay all that much more in taxes than we do here in the US.  And if we had a government funded universal insurance plan, wouldn't that still allow for competition among health care provider?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 12:57:04 pm
Hey Mike,

Well, I think there is a huge difference between the non profit and for profit industries.  I've worked for both.   

Ugh, both are riddled with problems, but I have to say this brings up why I left the industry.   I had more sleepless nights thinking about people that I'd been forced to decline services too.   I've always had a strong sense of what is ethically and morally right so for me it wasn't just a job when decisions I made were impacting lives.   If anyone has any question about  the motivation of the wonderful health insurance companies in this country just go work for one for 10 years.

HA, that just reminded me.   Isn't Michael Moore doing a new documentary on the health care system called Sicko???   I'd bet he be wrapping that one up just in time for the 2008 elections ; )

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 01, 2007, 01:00:30 pm
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....we can't do this, we can't do that. So far we have two Republican Governors and one Democratic Senator offering concrete (and in one case implementing) health care proposals.  70% of Americans want health coverage for all, and I am sure they realize they will need to contribute to make it happen. Soaring health care costs restrict our ability to compete in the global economy and all economists verify that fact.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 01:02:23 pm
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....we can't do this, we can't do that.

And yet we can have the evil socialism of free, compulsory, universal education.

I don't get the cognitive disconnect that people who are against this have.  They've yet to tell me why universal healthcare is "socialist" but free education is not.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 01, 2007, 01:06:17 pm
aupointillimite, where are you coming up with this free stuff? There is nothing FREE. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 01:08:45 pm
aupointillimite, where are you coming up with this free stuff? There is nothing FREE. 

Fine then... government-funded.

But then I'll put it to you that way... why is universal, government-funded healthcare socialist and unsupportable but universal, government-funded education not?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 01, 2007, 01:14:25 pm
Socialized medicine isn't free. Those people pay taxes for it, unless they are illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 01, 2007, 01:28:04 pm
Contrary to popular belief illegals do pay taxes...but that is a subject for another day. The right insists on using three words when discussing agendas. Gay, liberal or socialist or any combo of the three. Health care....socialist agenda....equal rights....gay, socialist agenda....decriminalize pot...liberal, gay, socialist agenda. Bloated Austrian Governor of California's plan for health care...REALLY COOL!!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 01:29:06 pm
Socialized medicine isn't free. Those people pay taxes for it, unless they are illegal immigrants.

Yes, taxes pay for universal health care.  I know.

But... why is that OK for education... but not for health care?

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 01:33:37 pm
Cause we can't have no child left behind!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bear60 on February 01, 2007, 01:34:32 pm
I wonder if its possible that the AMA lobby,  as well as the insurance market lobby,  has brainwashed us into thinking that universal health care is bad?????? ??? ??? :(
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 01:36:48 pm
I wonder if its possible that the AMA lobby,  as well as the insurance market lobby,  has brainwashed us into thinking that universal health care is bad?????? ??? ??? :(

It's actually what has happened, I think.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: thunter34 on February 01, 2007, 01:43:20 pm
It's all fixable !


Just Tax The Stupid People !!


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 01, 2007, 01:50:32 pm
taxes do pay for education but most of our Politicians send their kids to private schools. Do you want the healthcare system run like the bureaucrats run our education system?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 01:53:37 pm
Speaking of other ways to help assist paying for universal health care I vote we tax all these huge corporations hiding under the premise of being churches!

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: thunter34 on February 01, 2007, 02:03:48 pm
taxes do pay for education but most of our Politicians send their kids to private schools. Do you want the healthcare system run like the bureaucrats run our education system?

Versus having nothing available at all to so many people?  Yes.  I see what you're getting at...and I was about to raise that same statement, jack.  People are constantly decrying the ''failing of the public education system''.  But I really tremble at the thought of what our population would be like if education was handled the same way healthcare is in our country.  True, privatization can bring about competition and all that...but just think if education was subject to denial if/when families couldn't pay.  Or like the situation with choosing meds described above...what if little Johnny really wanted to take math and science, but could only afford reading and spelling. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 02:16:27 pm
Exactly!   Well said Thunter.

I'm still in shock that people have NO problem at all that people on death row recieve medical care.   Even inmates are considered worthy of health care.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Lisa on February 01, 2007, 02:53:09 pm
There are so many opponents in the medical community that oppose this for the sheer greed factor alone.
For 18.5 yrs. I worked for an academic superpower, tied to a not for profit, faith based hospital. The conglomerate known as: Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. The word clusterfuck comes to mind. I worked as a nurse specialist for Wake Forest(with all of the uppity-up docs, who thought they were gods because of their speciality)
So the medical system was split.....but oh, so UN evenly. The premise is simple.(kinda)
If you have insurance, you can see the ATTENDING physicians(read Professors), who all carry cool letters behind their names. If you don't, you get to see the residents in training for regular primary care, or a specialty.....BUT
the residents graduate every one, or two years(given the specialty) and the continuity of care SUCKS.
I worked for a Napoleonic physician who had an International reputation, and garnered much revenue, and attention for The Medical Center. He was a bombastic, primadonna, with a superiority complex that I had never encountered.(and you find them frequently in academia)
According to him, I worked for him, and was expected to tow the line according to his whims. Reality dictated that I worked for the department(including the residents).
He instructed me clearly to NOT accept Medicaid patients, and by the same token, he would not see any one whose insurance didn't check out to pay mucho deniro.
He was/is a flagrant depiction of those who detract from the universal access debate, as he made no apology for making it clear that he (megalomaniac that he was) would never see any of the lesser people(read: anyone without primo healthcare  insurance). He made no secret of the fact that if they only had Medicaid, they were not of even sufficient import to to bestow his talent upon.
I was instructed to not see Medicaid patients.
My professional/ethical meter went over the flagpole every time he dictated this to me.
I saw the patients, and they got the quality of care that every one of my/our patients deserved. He just never had to know about it.

The point I am insufficiently making, is that every patient everywhere deserves the best of my ability, regardless of their ability to pay.
I have not been able to work since 2003. My COBRA ran out long ago. I was only able to maintain the 380$/month premium for a while, because I had been bestowed a small(18K) inheritance due to my father's death in 1/03.(no correlation between his death and my work stoppage)
As citizens, we all deserve the same level of quality care by our medical comunity.
The only reason the AMA bucks this, is because it detracts from their pockets.
They(some) scream to the rafters in defiance of universal health access because of the same psychological brainwashing that the mainstream has been bombarded with, in an effort to keep their pockets lined.
I have been living without insurance for two years now. I am able to receive my HIV drugs because of the ADAP program. Otherwise, I would be dead by now. I cannot see the primary care doctor who has been my best advocate, because I am no longer "allowed" to, unless I wish to incur costs that I cannot afford.
I live in HOPWA funded section8 housing with no rent required yet, as I have no income. As a matter of fact, my ONLY income is 72.00$/mo. given to me by the Housing Authority for energy assistance.
My retirement accounts have been drained completely, while I have been awaiting our government to understand that I cannot work. Because I saw doctors in my own health care setting, their attempts to protect me from discrimination from our collective employers, made it so that the "qualifying" terminology was not used in my medical records.(because of Dr. Megalomaniac)
So here I am. I entered the workforce in 1974. I have paid taxes for almost thirty years, and I cannot access the depression meds I need because North Carolina's ADAP program covers only the BARE basics. HIV drugs, Antibiotics, Antifungals, Phenergan, and Elavil. PERIOD.
Even the health care workers agree that some form of universal access is a right. It is people like Dr. Megalomaniac that fight it aggressively, to keep up with their mid-life crisis spending sprees.
Repeat after me: I am special because I went to Medical School. I deserve HUGE amounts of money becuase of reason #1. NOBODY better get in my way, because I want a new _________(insert fancy car/SUV)
There is so much more, but I am tired now from working so hard to keep my focus.
Don't it make you just want to scream? This is only one tiny scenario.
Healthcare is a right, morally, and ethically.


A rosie picture of our educational system adjoined with our healcare system as it stands today.










Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 03:15:02 pm
Lisa I think you've demonstrated quite well with your own personal circumstances the seriousness of the situation.

Don't even get me started on the doctors, or worse medical directors that are meglamaniacs.  I had to work with them for so long and I was just astonished at the lack of moral and ethical compases with most in power in the industry.

You've worked for 30 years and aren't even afforded the same medications as Scott Peterson.   How can anyone not ethically see how wrong the situation is?

Wesley
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: DingoBoi on February 01, 2007, 03:20:46 pm
Don't be knocking the space program.  Those billions spent are well worth it.

It gave us Tang™ and those cushiony pillows and that's damn good enough for me....

Course, I pity the first astronaut that gets raped by a martian, but that's what happens when you go and invade other planets.  And then that will cause an interplanetary incident which will escalate into a war that will cost trillions, but hey, at least we got Tang out of the deal.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 03:22:29 pm
What has two thumbs and doesn't want universal health care?

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/marsaudiacsolo/18420158.jpg)

Bob Kelso!  Nice to meet ya!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 03:22:58 pm
Don't be knocking the space program.  Those billions spent are well worth it.

It gave us Tang™ and those cushiony pillows and that's damn good enough for me....

Course, I pity the first astronaut that gets raped by a martian, but that's what happens when you go and invade other planets.  And then that will cause an interplanetary incident which will escalate into a war that will cost trillions, but hey, at least we got Tang out of the deal.



You forgot astronaut ice cream.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 01, 2007, 03:23:57 pm
What has two thumbs and doesn't want universal health care?

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/marsaudiacsolo/18420158.jpg)

Bob Kelso!  Nice to meet ya!

HYSTERICAL!

And MAN does this thread have legs.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 01, 2007, 05:56:48 pm
Hey Steve (Fearless),
Thanks for chiming in with some #'s :D

I did come away from it wondering something. It appears that the patient pays the Dr out of pocket first, then get's reimbursed approx 90%, right?

In the US, those too poor now to have health coverage, would more than likely not be able to come up with the $ to see the Dr, even if they're going to be reimbursed. How does that situation work itself out in your country?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 01, 2007, 06:31:02 pm
You can talk this until you're blue in the face. The US will never go to Socialized Medicine. I don't know why anyone wants to get uptight about it. It just will never happen.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 06:33:53 pm
You can talk this until you're blue in the face. The US will never go to Socialized Medicine. I don't know why anyone wants to get uptight about it. It just will never happen.

They said this about so many things...

We'd never get mechanized flight, that the commercial use of television was "in doubt," that women would never have the vote, that segregation would always be around, that the USSR would never fall...

The list goes on and on.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 06:48:11 pm
Actually at the rate business are decreasing what they offer employees for insurance benefits, at the rate that deductibles increase as well as co-payments, and with ever increasing globalization and competing with countries who offer nationalized health (therefore this not being included in a business overseas as overhead) some other sort of single payer system will eventually be demanded in the US not just by voters but also by business executives.

So I disagree Ron... it will eventually happen.  There have been quite a number of polls showing a favorable look by the voting public on this issue.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 01, 2007, 06:57:50 pm
They've talked about it in the fifties, the sixties and the seventies etc.etc etc. It isn't going to happen. I nor you will ever see it here.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 07:14:02 pm
You're not anymore convincing to me repeating those lines than I suppose I am to you.  In fact, a quick review of your postings over three pages really doesn't provide me with much you've said except to say over and over "it won't work, forget it."  I'll say that's a fascinating analysis though, but I'd be horribly dripping with sarcasm.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 07:16:51 pm
They've talked about it in the fifties, the sixties and the seventies etc.etc etc. It isn't going to happen. I nor you will ever see it here.

Why not?

It's not like it would violate the laws of physics or anything... which would then, logically, move it into the realm of possibility.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 01, 2007, 07:29:43 pm
  My experiences working at some very notable healthcare institutions are very much in line with Lisa's. I believe it is insurance reform that needs to take place, rather than socialization of medicine. Well that and someone really needs to tell some of these docs to shut the f**k up. You're a human just like me.

  I agree completely that everyone deserves the highest levels of health care available. If we place everything in the hands of the government however advances will slow significantly.

  If medicine is government controled, equipment manufacturers will have no reason to continue with the current pace  of advancement.  Pharmaceutical companies will have very little reason to spend millions developing new drugs.  Physicians will have very little reason to experiment with new procedures. In fact they will likely be even more restricted than they are currently.

  In my little piece of the medical world I'm trying to convince the FDA to allow us to sell a new mammo machine that uses a new technology to provide significantly better images and has been shown to be able to detect micro calcifications that todays technology simply miss.  This is a huge thing.  The problem is, If my competitor was awarded the mammo machine contract for the government for the next 5 years, there isn't a chance in hell I could convince my company to spend the millions of dollars need to develop this machine.  In a competitive free market however; I simply have to bring the concept to them, and convince them I'll make them all rich.  The end result is fewer women die of breast cancer. Take this concept and apply it to every medical device, every drug, every new procedure. 

  Do we need to fix things?  Yes we do.  Giving it to the government is not the answer.

 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 07:32:25 pm
Here's what is missing from this debate.  HOW DO WE GET THERE??  I really would like to get there, but the question is HOW?

Polls may show that people want it, but they will change their minds when they see the costs of a wholesale switch to gov't funded health care (I've never used the term "socialized" -- it's too problematic a word for many).  I'm not only talking about an increase in taxes, although that is a part of it (a comment was made that someone (i'm sorry I can't find the post) from Canada pays no more taxes than we do, but that wouldn't be true if we switched -- they'd be paying less).  The other is the economic upheaval that would ensue -- I'm not only talking about "fat-cat insurance executives" or the doctors that everyone thinks makes so much money, I'm talking about the lab technicians and nurses and janitors in the local hospitals that will end up closing.  We may say it is a basic human right and is ethical to have universal coverage, but how do we get there in a way that doesn't cause chaos.  That is the true challenge here.  We have a couple of states that seem to want to try a hybrid model -- I hope they are wildly successful.  It will likely breed more attempts and more attempts until everyone has health care coverage.
Yes, people are suffering, going without care and dying and that is wrong, but I think simply stating that Universal Care should happen is all Motherhood and Apple Pie -- Let's talk about reality and see how to achieve it.  
A magic wand isn't going to do it.  People need to understand the pain to get there and how we can minimize it.(and talking about other's current pain, unfortunately, won't be persuasive enough for most  --  how many thought about this issue back before we needed serious healthcare??)

I do like this debate, but we need more than each side saying that "I am right, you are wrong".

Mike

One more thing -- I don't agree that everyone deserves "the highest levels of healthcare available" that has contributed to the mess we are in -- what everyone deserves is the "appropriate level of healthcare" for their needs.  Let's stop practicing defensive medicine and giving patient's what they want instead of giving them what they need.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 07:32:58 pm
Too bad your viewpoint is negated by the successful implementation of single payer health systems in every other industrial countries. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 07:36:13 pm
Grinch... how much money does the government give the pharma companies to develop new drugs?

Isn't something like more than half of R&D funds are provided by the government?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 07:37:15 pm
Too bad your viewpoint is negated by the successful implementation of single payer health systems in every other industrial countries. 

And that company Roche... Swiss.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 01, 2007, 07:48:21 pm
Defensive medicine is a bad thing. That would have to be fixed by torte reform.

How much does the government supplement the pharmaceutical companies? I have no idea.  I do however know they give equipment  manufacturers nothing. Forget the cost of developing/inventing a new technology, the cost of getting a new device approved by the FDA is millions.  I have little doubt pharmaceutical  companies have a similar model. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 07:50:18 pm
Defensive medicine is a bad thing. That would have to be fixed by torte reform.

How much does the government supplement the pharmaceutical companies? I have no idea.  I do however know they give equipment  manufacturers nothing. Forget the cost of developing/inventing a new technology, the cost of getting a new device approved by the FDA is millions.  I have little doubt pharmaceutical  companies have a similar model. 

And single payer systems in every other county in the industrialized world has resulted in zero demand for these new technologies?

Has that been the case?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on February 01, 2007, 07:51:49 pm
I'm confused.

Some of us seem to be talking about universal health care, by which I am assuming they mean some sort of single payer health insurance coverage, retaining the current mix of private, public, and governmental provided health services.

Others are talking about socialized medicine, which I presume means a nationalization of health services where the government, either state or federa, or a mix of the two,  would own the hospitals and clinics and employ doctors and auxiliaries to staff them.

Which is it?

Is the term socialized being used to denigrate the idea of universal health care?  It seems to to me, but I could be wrong.

Another question:

What is so wrong with medicare and medicaid that those services should not be extended to everyone, versus just the elderly, disabled and poverty-stricken?  And if everyone is not deserving of it, then why are they?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 07:55:17 pm
I'm confused.

Some of us seem to be talking about universal health care, by which I am assuming they mean some sort of single payer health insurance coverage, retaining the current mix of private, public, and governmental provided health services.

Others are talking about socialized medicine, which I presume means a nationalization of health services where the government, either state or federa, or a mix of the two,  would own the hospitals and clinics and employ doctors and auxiliaries to staff them.

Which is it?

Is the term socialized being used to denigrate the idea of universal health care?  It seems to to me, but I could be wrong.

Another question:

What is so wrong with medicare and medicaid that those services should not be extended to everyone, versus just the elderly, disabled and poverty-stricken?  And if everyone is not deserving of it, then why are they?

Appy polly loggies... I have been referring to a system of universal insurance provided by the government... not like a government HMO, more like a government POS plan... that's my dream, anyway...

Edited to add: I have been using about 3,000 different terms for this... sorry.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: fearless on February 01, 2007, 08:04:36 pm
hey Longislander,

There are a number of possibilities. If you are a pensioner or on disability, the doctor charges you nothing and just bills the government.
some doctors do this for all patients ie you just go in and swipe your medicare card. Fewer and fewer do this for all patients though as they argue that the government rebate is too low.

My doc charges me $75 to see him, I then take the receipt to the Medicare office and get about $58 back. I could of course do this 'electronically' but call me old fashioned, I like cold hard cash. If my out of pocket expensess, dir's visits, prescriptions etc go over $750 (I think) for the financial year, then I get reimbursed even more - i think I pay zip, not sure though as I've never hit the mark.

The costs of my blood tests are covered 100%, but some other things I get about 85-90% back eg an MRI scan, however, a liver ultra-sound was a free, as are x-rays generally.

We have public and private hospitals. surgeries operate as private entities.
it's not socialized as such, but as citizens we all put money into a pool so that the overall costs are born by the sociey as a whole and not the individual.
You can still have private health insurance and go to expensive hospitals with high priced doctors and with ala carte lunches if you want.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 08:05:12 pm
Oh, and calling "socialized" health care is a very clever ploy the right uses to make you think "socialist." 

Which then makes this pop in your head.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/marsaudiacsolo/205px-Hammer_sickle.png)

And then you think that providing such a basic service to citizens means we're a hop, skip and a jump away from setting up gulags in Alaska.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 08:08:21 pm
I think most of us can agree that socialism has a negative conotation like facism and communism it's used to negate the idea of universal health care.

I may have even used the term, but it's clear others use it just to put a negative spin on the concept.

Most hospitals and various other facilities are privately owned and will never go out of buiness.   Doctors will not become unemployable.   I don't understand how anyone feels that would occur.    

At the present rate, there's no way the current system will survive.    

And those who are so quick to make the statement if you work for a company you will be insured.  That's so not true.  My brother works full time and is also self employed and can't afford insurance.    I know tons of people in this position.

Sure, some people could have to transition into other careers depending on what is and isn't needed.  

To me, the biggest problem is that while most of us would like a universal healthcare system fear prevents action from being taken and most people are far to complacent to do anything.

Some people are so apathetic that that they feel nothing is worth trying.   Others are happy with the status quo and figure well I have insurance now and just assume they always will.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 08:10:10 pm
I'm confused.

Some of us seem to be talking about universal health care, by which I am assuming they mean some sort of single payer health insurance coverage, retaining the current mix of private, public, and governmental provided health services.

Others are talking about socialized medicine, which I presume means a nationalization of health services where the government, either state or federa, or a mix of the two,  would own the hospitals and clinics and employ doctors and auxiliaries to staff them.

Which is it?

Is the term socialized being used to denigrate the idea of universal health care?  It seems to to me, but I could be wrong.

Another question:

What is so wrong with medicare and medicaid that those services should not be extended to everyone, versus just the elderly, disabled and poverty-stricken?  And if everyone is not deserving of it, then why are they?

I'm talking about single payers.  Most arguing against any changes don't comprehend the differences you just discussed.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 01, 2007, 08:13:11 pm
You miss the point. Governments award contracts to different manufacturers for a set period of time.  If I invent a new CT machine that is faster, or better than the one just purchased by the government I have no one to sell it to.  Doing away with competition will result in a slowing in advancement.  Frankly as an aids patient I really hope someone comes up with a cure.  The odds of someone doing so without an incentive is pretty slim.  Research takes money. People spend money on R & D to make money. It really is that simple.  Do you really want some bureaucrat looking at a budget and saying, "This year we will spend $X on researching an AIDS cure."?  I'd greatly prefer some researcher telling his employer "I think if you give me another million I can finish this experiment that may cure AIDS." If his employer says no, he just goes to the competitor down the street. In a wholly government run system there is no competitor down the street.

I concede our system is not perfect and that it needs some change. Giving it to our government is not the answer.
I spent the beginning of my career in military medicine, and continue to be involved in the VA medical system.  There are certainly strong points, but I shudder to think of the consequence of putting the entire country into that system.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 08:14:21 pm
I think most of us can agree that socialism has a negative conotation like facism and communism it's used to negate the idea of universal health care.

I may have even used the term, but it's clear others use it just to put a negative spin on the concept.

Most hospitals and various other facilities are privately owned and will never go out of buiness.   Doctors will not become unemployable.   I don't understand how anyone feels that would occur.   

At the present rate, there's no way the current system will survive.   

And those who are so quick to make the statement if you work for a company you will be insured.  That's so not true.  My brother works full time and is also self employed and can't afford insurance.    I know tons of people in this position.

Sure, some people could have to transition into other careers depending on what is and isn't needed.   

To me, the biggest problem is that while most of us would like a universal healthcare system fear prevents action from being taken and most people are far to complacent to do anything.

Some people are so apathetic that that they feel nothing is worth trying.   Others are happy with the status quo and figure well I have insurance now and just assume they always will.



You're right about complacency... but as in Dr. Zhivago, when the boots wear out, the soldiers will listen.  I have excellent, excellent insurance through my job.  But has what it offered declined while the amount I pay for it go up?

Fuck. Yeah. Daddy.

When the levels of service that private insurers offer sinks low enough, Americans will demand that action be taken.

Hell, it was a dead letter on arrival in Congress in 1993-4.  Now there are several states setting up compulsory insurance programs... real people and the representatives closer to them (the ones in their states) know the system is broken and immoral.  It's been going down like a lead balloon for 10 years with no signs of improvement, and people are starting to take action.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 08:19:26 pm
You miss the point. Governments award contracts to different manufacturers for a set period of time.  If I invent a new CT machine that is faster, or better than the one just purchased by the government I have no one to sell it to.  Doing away with competition will result in a slowing in advancement.  Frankly as an aids patient I really hope someone comes up with a cure.  The odds of someone doing so without an incentive is pretty slim.  Research takes money. People spend money on R & D to make money. It really is that simple.  Do you really want some bureaucrat looking at a budget and saying, "This year we will spend $X on researching an AIDS cure."?  I'd greatly prefer some researcher telling his employer "I think if you give me another million I can finish this experiment that may cure AIDS." If his employer says no, he just goes to the competitor down the street. In a wholly government run system there is no competitor down the street.

I concede our system is not perfect and that it needs some change. Giving it to our government is not the answer.
I spent the beginning of my career in military medicine, and continue to be involved in the VA medical system.  There are certainly strong points, but I shudder to think of the consequence of putting the entire country into that system.

We're not talking about making every hospital government-run... or making every doctor a government employee... or making pharma companies into government entities.  They still have flourishing private medical enterprises in Canada and Europe.

Your argument is akin to "Northrop Grumman has no incentive to make a faster jet because their only customer is the government."  And yet... they do.  Why?  Because there are competing aerospace development firms within the same field... no one is suggesting that pharma companies become public entities. 

We're talking about keeping them as private entities, with the government footing the bill through a single payer payment plan.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 08:22:36 pm
You miss the point.

Uh, no... you don't understand what a single payer system is.  It does NOT privatize doctors, phara companies or hospitals.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 01, 2007, 08:41:15 pm
If the government foots the bill, how can you claim it is a public entity? In this "Single Payer" plan who is the payer if not the government. Please, come up with a change, I would embrace it.  But clearly the government is not the solution. You keep bringing up Canada, My company which has developed a product that has gone from 2% market share to 40% market share in 5 years (The machine really is THAT good) has been unable to sell it in Canada because it wasn't on the government approved list of manufacturers.

 I have spent my entire adult life in medicine, both as a care giver and as an OEM and as a patient, I fully understand how broken, not only our system, but the government controlled systems, and the so called hybrid systems around the world are. I have witnessed first hand the strengths and weaknesses of systems around the world. I will again say: Our system is flawed and needs help. The answer is not give it to the government and ask them to fix it.  The answer is also not. "Make it free for everyone!" The answer must be make it available for everyone. There's a big big difference.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 01, 2007, 08:43:05 pm
Uh, no... you don't understand what a single payer system is.  It does NOT privatize doctors, phara companies or hospitals.

Ding ding ding!It does not privatize docs etc.  This means they are government controlled.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 08:46:58 pm
The answer must be make it available for everyone. There's a big big difference.

And that's something the market is extremely, extremely poor at.

You have to hand it over to the government to make it available to everyone.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 08:48:52 pm
Ding ding ding!It does not privatize docs etc.  This means they are government controlled.

I think Philly's comment was a typo. 

But is Northrop Grumman a private company... or a government entity?

And who is their primary customer?

And do they still have an incentive to engage in massive amounts of r&d?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 08:49:01 pm
Ding ding ding!It does not privatize docs etc.  This means they are government controlled.

Ding ding ding... please form complete sentences.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 01, 2007, 08:53:57 pm
You can talk this until you're blue in the face. The US will never go to Socialized Medicine. I don't know why anyone wants to get uptight about it. It just will never happen.

Never name the well from which you will not drink.

As others have pointed out, lots of people have made bold claims about what will never happen in the US.

We once said torture and the government spying on it's citizenry was impossible in the US.   Look where we are now.

We once said gays and lesbians would never have their relationships recognized, but slowly, more communities are recognizing them and more corporations are extending benefits to partners of gays and lesbians.

It's comforting to think we won't do this or that, but eventually, as we find ourselves struggling to keep up with a world that is growing and evolving around us, we will incorporate the things that give them an edge over us into our own system.....maybe not in the exact same way, but change is inevitable and not necessarily something to be feared (unless you are a conservative who thinks the status quo is always the best).
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 01, 2007, 09:02:08 pm
Oh, and calling "socialized" health care is a very clever ploy the right uses to make you think "socialist." 

Which then makes this pop in your head.

(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e39/marsaudiacsolo/205px-Hammer_sickle.png)

And then you think that providing such a basic service to citizens means we're a hop, skip and a jump away from setting up gulags in Alaska.

You raise a very good point, there.  It's something of a cultural anomaly in the United States that due to the fact that we were of two superpowers with the USSR being the other and the visceral distrust if not not outright hatred that was developed during the cold war, most Americans cannot distinguish between the concept of socialism and Soviet-style communism.  They are hardly the same thing.  The US has a long history of socialism.   Public schools.  The military.  Police departments.  Fire department.  Public libraries.  The interstate highway system.  The CDC.  The court system.  The municipal water supply.  The FDA.  The CIA.   Public transportation. The list just goes on and on of projects funded with taxpayer money which is, in effect, socialism. 

But unfortunately, there are far too many people who toss out the word socialism as a propaganda bomb to try to END discussion rather than encourage civil discourse and open discussion of ideas.

I've never liked that tactic.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 09:04:02 pm
You raise a very good point, there.  It's something of a cultural anomaly in the United States that due to the fact that we were of two superpowers with the USSR being the other and the visceral distrust if not not outright hatred that was developed during the cold war, most Americans cannot distinguish between the concept of socialism and Soviet-style communism.  They are hardly the same thing.  The US has a long history of socialism.   Public schools.  The military.  Police departments.  Fire department.  Public libraries.  The interstate highway system.  The CDC.  The court system.  The municipal water supply.  The FDA.  The CIA.   Public transportation. The list just goes on and on of projects funded with taxpayer money which is, in effect, socialism. 

But unfortunately, there are far too many people who toss out the word socialism as a propaganda bomb to try to END discussion rather than encourage civil discourse and open discussion of ideas.

I've never liked that tactic.

But what about the insidious Commie plot to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids through water fluoridation?

Riddle me that!   :D
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: dtwpuck on February 01, 2007, 09:07:24 pm
You'd think the right wing dinks would get it through their head that communism is dead.  Let it stay dead.  The spectre of communism just isn't a real threat anymore. 

Too bad there isn't an alternative to communism.

Вперёд в борьбе с капитализмом
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 01, 2007, 09:09:23 pm
Ding ding ding... please form complete sentences.  Thanks.

You see this is why discussion is impossible here. I have presented one side of a discussion in a clearly stated well reasoned manner.
I very simply stated that taking the competition out of the medical system we slow advancements in technology. This is a very negative effect of providing "free" government health care. I agreed that our system is flawed and should be changed.  The response: Nitpicking sentances and sentence structure.  I ask again how does this single payer system encourage new procedures, medicines, and technology. The world has shown very clearly it does not.
Regarding the Grummond question. We're still flying 20 year old f-15's once grummon or whoever is awarded the contract. The other companies have no incentive, they also have civilian sector to sell to.

Well done, a topic that can be reasonably discussed shut down again, because in the absence of a valid argument some choose to belittle, yell and scream.  I do certainly appreciate the reminder.  Please.... go back to discussing porn.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: DingoBoi on February 01, 2007, 09:17:02 pm
stop abusing and corrupting my name. 

You are not allowed to say "ding ding ding:  You ain't a gawd damn trolley.

Please return to the usual bickering.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 09:19:20 pm
You see this is why discussion is impossible here. I have presented one side of a discussion in a clearly stated well reasoned manner.
I very simply stated that taking the competition out of the medical system we slow advancements in technology. This is a very negative effect of providing "free" government health care. I agreed that our system is flawed and should be changed.  The response: Nitpicking sentances and sentence structure.  I ask again how does this single payer system encourage new procedures, medicines, and technology. The world has shown very clearly it does not.
Regarding the Grummond question. We're still flying 20 year old f-15's once grummon or whoever is awarded the contract. The other companies have no incentive, they also have civilian sector to sell to.

Well done, a topic that can be reasonably discussed shut down again, because in the absence of a valid argument some choose to belittle, yell and scream.  I do certainly appreciate the reminder.  Please.... go back to discussing porn.

So... the fifth generation of fighter jets... the ones developed by defense contractors over the past decade?  The F-35, the F-22 Raptor, etc.. those are all dim sum, I suppose?

I'm sorry, I don't see how the need for innovation is removed when the government is your primary customer.

And furthermore, in a single-payer plan... you don't think the consumers (i.e. the citizenry) aren't going to demand further treatments.

Your point about an AIDS cure... are you aware that the current system encourages people to think that a potential cure is there... but because pharms companies reap so much money from HAART, that it's not being looked into vigorously or even surpressed because a cure would mean an end to the Norvir cash cow?   

I, personally, don't subscribe to that... but it's no lunatic-fringe theory either.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on February 01, 2007, 09:27:39 pm
Hmm.

What private entity does Northrup-Grumman sell anything to?  It sells to Uncle Sugar. Over and over again.  One newly developed jet and bomb after another.

I don't see having a single payer vs. multiple payer system would stifle competition in development of new medical technologies.  The only competition it would stifle would be that between the insurance underwriters, who are currently skimming a hefty percentage off the top of our health care dollar before it is even spent on health care.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 01, 2007, 09:35:32 pm
You see this is why discussion is impossible here. I have presented one side of a discussion in a clearly stated well reasoned manner.

Wait a minute.  You honestly expected me to understand you with this statement?

Ding ding ding!It does not privatize docs etc.  This means they are government controlled.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 09:39:14 pm
And that's something the market is extremely, extremely poor at.

You have to hand it over to the government to make it available to everyone.

OK -- let's do that with other "rights" and "moral issues".  Like equality for same-sex couples??  My big capitalist employer will allow me to put my partner on my benefits at their expense, but the "'benevolent" government doesn't recognize us as a couple, so they tax me for it.   Oh, yeah, and I'm not afforded the "right" to marry him, even though we've been together for 16+ yrs.   
So, I'm not convinced that the government is the answer at fairly distributing rights!!

I'm just saying!

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 09:41:32 pm
OK -- let's do that with other "rights" and "moral issues".  Like equality for same-sex couples??  My big capitalist employer will allow me to put my partner on my benefits at their expense, but the "'benevolent" government doesn't recognize us as a couple, so they tax me for it.   Oh, yeah, and I'm not afforded the "right" to marry him, even though we've been together for 16+ yrs.   
So, I'm not convinced that the government is the answer at fairly distributing rights!!

I'm just saying!

Mike

Because the free market is what ended segregation, right?

Refresh me on that one...

And the free market is what ensures workers' rights on the jobs through the Department of Labor, OSHA, ADA, and God knows what else, right?

I hate to say this, but if it was up to the free market and not the government... all of our asses would be out on the streets.  Because those messiahs of capitalism would have fired out HIV+ butts in two minutes flat... and would you be defending your employer then?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 01, 2007, 09:48:32 pm
Look, I'm not saying anyone is wrong in wanting everyone to have access to health care.  Thati is what I want too.  What I have been trying to do is point out that a magic wand will not do it.  The government hasn't been great with Medicaid and Medicare.  I'm trying to find out what people think will work.  How do we get there, how do we handle the upheaval from the change.  Yes, other countries have done it -- but I'm betting (and I'm not an expert here) they didn't have our current system.  Yes, I believe hospitals, doctors and other health providers would go out of business if the government took over, because it would be about lowering costs and consolidation.  So, Please stop telling me why I'm "wrong" -- I have close to the same goals as you -- tell me HOW WE DO IT-- or how you think it might happen or anything but why I'm wrong and why we SHOULD get there (because I agree with that point).

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: dtwpuck on February 01, 2007, 09:51:46 pm
First off... the argument that "socialized" anything reduces competition and innovation is a strawman.  Just take the Soviet Union as an example.  Over the seventy years of communism, there was absolutely no shortage of innovations and technological advances that came out of that country.  Let's not forget who got into space first.  I am not saying that the system of the USSR should in any way be emulated, please.  However, the promise of material compensation is not the sacred cow of human motivation.  However, it is a very powerful force.  To deny such a thing is silly.

That is not to say that universal health care is incompatible with the promise of material compensation.  However, the only people who should be compensated for genius should, in fact, be the geniuses... not those who happen to be good at marketing or happen to have the capital to invest in distribution.  Profit is OK to make, but not on the backs of the sick.   To me it is, at best, ethically dubious to base a healthcare system on profitability, and, at worst, the basest and worst so-called accomplishment of capitalism.

Ethics are not incompatible with business.    The world of business did not come crashing down because it was once decided that slaves have rights.  It adapted and changed to what was obvious to people of moral character.  The same will happen with this.

 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: aupointillimite on February 01, 2007, 09:55:07 pm
So, Please stop telling me why I'm "wrong" -- I have close to the same goals as you -- tell me HOW WE DO IT-- or how you think it might happen or anything but why I'm wrong and why we SHOULD get there (because I agree with that point).

Mike

I don't know. 

I don't know.

I don't know.

But I imagine a step in the right direction would be to study... really study... how the implementation of Medicare and Medicaid was acheived (I know quite a few people on Medicaid... and it helps them and their babies... without it, they would be SOL, so I guess how messed up the system is lies in the eyes of the people using it), exactly how the systems in Canada, Australia, and Europe work, and how best to implement that here. 

Why do Americans suddenly become timid when it comes to this?  Everything else we do with gusto...  Walk on the moon?  Hell yeah!  Invade Iraq?  Fuck yeah!  Build interstates?  Where and how fast?  Universal health care?  Um... I don't.. no... can we?

What is that? 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AlanBama on February 01, 2007, 09:55:22 pm
good point, puck!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 01, 2007, 10:14:58 pm
I don't know. 

I don't know.

I don't know.

But I imagine a step in the right direction would be to study... really study... how the implementation of Medicare and Medicaid was acheived (I know quite a few people on Medicaid... and it helps them and their babies... without it, they would be SOL, so I guess how messed up the system is lies in the eyes of the people using it), exactly how the systems in Canada, Australia, and Europe work, and how best to implement that here. 

Why do Americans suddenly become timid when it comes to this?  Everything else we do with gusto...  Walk on the moon?  Hell yeah!  Invade Iraq?  Fuck yeah!  Build interstates?  Where and how fast?  Universal health care?  Um... I don't.. no... can we?

What is that? 

I agree with Benj.   It's not like we are all just proposing some totally incredible idea out of a science fiction movie.    There are plenty of models to look at in various countries.   I'd say compare them and see which is best and take the best ideas from each of these already existing entities and formulate a plan to integrate the system in the US.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: fearless on February 02, 2007, 07:59:12 am
Universal health care does not mean government control of everything.

As a society, you decide what the level of health care that each citizen is entitled to, and then you go about funding it. And it can and is done more cheaply and more efficiently than in the private sector. Just look at the facts, in the US you pay twice as much and more per capita for health care as any other industrialised nation in the world, and you get worse outcomes. It ain't working.

Our system is not perfect, but we consider it a right that people have access to a doctor, cheap medicines and hospitals for emergencies and reasonable access at other times. Our system does not cover dental or optical, unless you are on social security or disability. Those on social security or disability, pay much smaller co-pays and those with jobs pay more. It's give and take by the individual, for the greater good of the society.

We also have a thriving private hospital system. If you want private hospital coverage, to have immediate access for elective surgery, you can take out private hospital coverage, the same for optical and dental coverage (about $800-$1000 a year for a family).

In an effort to reduce pressure on the public system, if you earn over 60K (I think) you are compelled to take out private hospital coverage (about $500 per year) as a minimum, or you pay an extra 1% tax for the public system. You can still use the public system if you want.

My doctor is not paid by the government, he runs his own private practice. They charge me a fee and the government reimburses me a certain % of that fee. Doctors are free to compete and the prices fluctuate accordingly. My drgus are manufactured by private companies (Roche etc). They manufactue and sell their drugs just like in the US. There is no government control. But, we don't allow advertising of prescription medicinces to the general public, saving bucketloads of money for them. We have caps on public liability payouts to stop ridiculous amounts being awarded, which saves doctors and heaps on insurance costs. And overall, our admin costs are about 8-10%, instead of 20-25%.

I sit here amazed that you can agree to and fund an interstate highway system, but can't agree on some basic health entitlements. And, I bet you could probably fund a lot of it by spending less on roads and having private companies build toll roads and sharing the profits. Make interstates a user-pay system, and make basic health care a right.

You know it makes sense.  ;D


Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 02, 2007, 08:09:14 am
If nothing else the debate about health care will be brought to floor of Congress this year. Here are four national, universal health care proposals before Congress. If anyone was so inclined you could check out the Congressional Record for details of each bill-it's less painful than it sounds. We will have this debate for one reason only...Democratic control of the House and Senate. For the last twelve years Republicans blocked any health care legislation from even reaching the floor. Freed up from their tyrannical Republican masters there is even a bipartisan Senate proposal on the table this year.

Also for the naysayers who continue with the mantra, "it can never happen here," it already has. Mass has passed (MassCare if you are interested) universal health care that all 49 states will be watching. CA, Oregon, Vermont and Maine have pending legislation. I believe Hawaii already offers health care for all. So you see there is movement towards health care and I believe I will see it in my lifetime.

Here are the pending bills:

The United States National Health Insurance Act (H.R.676)
This would replace the existing U.S. insurance industry and all public health care programs with a full-fledged single payer system.

National Health Insurance Act (H.R.15)
This bill would create a new, nationally funded national health insurance plan that would be nationally funded but locally administered and implemented

Medicare for All Act (S.2229 and H.R. 4683)
This plan would expand existing Medicare program to all

Healthy Americans Act (S.334)
This plan ensures all Americans have private health Insurance coverage equal to or better than the coverage provide to members of Congress through a fair, market based system.

So there you have it...and unless Karl Marx rises from the grave with his endorsement, we will have this debate.



Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 02, 2007, 09:05:04 am
I believe the US will end up with universal health care, which is much different than socialized medicine (which is unlikely to ever happen).  I think Medicare/caid will be expanded to cover portions of the population now excluded from health care coverage.  The remaining population will be covered via new healthcare coverage obligations mandated by the government on employers and employees (i.e., requiring part-time workers to be covered, mandating that all employees must accept coverage, etc..).  How illegal immigrants (which make up almost 25% of uninsured Americans) will be covered is beyond me?  If everyone has (or is required to have) coverage, undocumented workers will stick out like a sore thumb.  But this issue probably isn't unique as many countries don't cover nonresident/illegals.  I would be interested in hearing how those countries deal with that population.

Someone mentioned inequity of income distribution as being an issue.   I agree.  You can't look at this issue in isolation.  Part of American disparities in health outcome (and crime, education, poverty stats, etc..) is directly tied to its extreme income distribution.  Solving that probably will go a long way torwards improving health outcomes for all.  We can only hope that the Democrats will put forth solutions to reverse the trend starting in the 90's, of professionals/high income earners grabbing an even bigger share of the pie.

Health care a right not a privilege.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: poet on February 02, 2007, 09:20:28 am
Going back to Mike's question: how?  Again, let's watch what is happening here in Massachusetts.  Four private companies have come out with what they were asked to do: this much coverage, these deductibles, etc.  The problem, which I posted earlier, is that the cost as seen in premiums, seems to be more than legislators can accept.  So the next question is does the state come in as it has with auto insurance and regulate health insurance premiums, does it back off from the free market approach in pricing?  How might it work if you accepted one of the existing programs?  You would pay your premiums to whichever company you wanted and would see the doctors who accept your insurance company as is true now.  What this clearly doesn't answer at this point is what about the paucity of dentists on the Cape where I live who accept MassHealth?  What about the limited number of doctors who accept MassHealth?  Where do these people find medical care, even if they have coverage by this form of insurance?  Win
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: gerry on February 02, 2007, 09:28:11 am
...
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: gerry on February 02, 2007, 09:29:17 am
Going back to Mike's question: how?  Again, let's watch what is happening here in Massachusetts.  Four private companies have come out with what they were asked to do: this much coverage, these deductibles, etc.  The problem, which I posted earlier, is that the cost as seen in premiums, seems to be more than legislators can accept.  So the next question is does the state come in as it has with auto insurance and regulate health insurance premiums, does it back off from the free market approach in pricing?  How might it work if you accepted one of the existing programs?  You would pay your premiums to whichever company you wanted and would see the doctors who accept your insurance company as is true now.  What this clearly doesn't answer at this point is what about the paucity of dentists on the Cape where I live who accept MassHealth?  What about the limited number of doctors who accept MassHealth?  Where do these people find medical care, even if they have coverage by this form of insurance?  Win

Win, I'd be very interested to know how it's playing out in Massachussetts.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 02, 2007, 10:01:35 am
I sit here amazed that you can agree to and fund an interstate highway system, but can't agree on some basic health entitlements. And, I bet you could probably fund a lot of it by spending less on roads and having private companies build toll roads and sharing the profits. Make interstates a user-pay system, and make basic health care a right.

Thanks for the additional comments I clipped out, and on what I Ieft just here you highlight a great point.  Americans have retarded priorities, that's the bottom line.  Unencumbered driving is a right... but not healthcare.  Frankly we should be incredibly ashamed.

And frankly I find the repeated charges of "I believe in the right, BUT IT WILL NEVER WORK" about the most frustrating one of all, and flies in the face of the fact that it indeed works all over the world, over and over and over.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Bartro on February 02, 2007, 10:23:33 am
Just some observations of wasted healthcare dollars in my area.

There are four large hospitals in town.  They all have plenty of open beds all the time.  They have all become very competitive to attract patients (customers). 

Some examples.

All have valet parking while their parking lots are all located a few feet from their doors.
Birthing suites with whirlpool baths and an extra room with beds for family members.
One recently remodeled with mahogany trim and panelling throughout most of the facility.
Another has a grand player piano in the lobby with 75 foot ceilings and a bank of glass elevators.
A hotel resides on the top floor of one hospital complete with room service and deeply discounted prices for patients families.

MRI, CT scans and other diagnosics are all available on the same day ordered.  One place will even send a mobile MRI to your home at no extra charge.  Most of these expensive machines sit idle the majority of the time.

Only two of these hospitals accept medical assistance.  When you enter any of these facilities the first procedure is a "wallet biopsy".  If you've accidentally entered a facility that doesn't accept medical assistance they will give you a free ambulance ride to one that does.

Our city is the home to the headquarters of about a half a dozen health insurance companies.  They've tried to outdo each other in their building.  One of the buildings resembles the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove California.  The administrative costs of the hundreds of health insurance companies and their thousands of different policies are astronomical.

The cost of all of these things come from health care dollars.  Sure they are nice but unnecessary. 

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Lisa on February 02, 2007, 11:00:48 am
Well Hal kinda beat me to the punchline, but my thoughts have been leaning in the direction of simply expanding the Medicaid model(or something like it) to cover any citizen who does not have private insurance. I know that is probably not the best answer, but the system is already in place in every state now, though it is cleverly called by other names, it is still the same program. It can be modified, and updated or transition to another model, if something is more efficient, but the program already exists. Why do so many people believe that we need to sell some new abstract program to the masses, when we have one in place.

I tried to apply for Medicaid a couple of years ago, but was flatly refused because the government had not bestowed a disabled label on me yet, and again my records didn't contain the required terminology. When I went for my appeal hearing, this guy looked down his nose at me when I said I had AIDS, like I was making something up to garner his favor. I felt like something he just scraped off the bottom of his shoe. That was a very uplifting moment. :-X
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 02, 2007, 11:27:06 am
Some interesting points have been made concerning some of the systems by which we could implement universal health care.

The one issue that republicans (and the insurance lobby) will fight tooth and nail over is that if our country does allow insurance companies to continue to manage our health care in a public/private partnership is regulation. 

A few things that MUST happen in that scenario:

1) Health insurance must be unlinked from employers.

2) Pre-existing clauses MUST be eliminated. (They are pretty much bullshit anyway)

3) Insurances will not be allowed to dump people into high risk insurance, crap coverage insurance pools.

4) Premiums increases must face a regulatory board that takes real costs into account.

5) Insurance companies will not be allowed to cherry pick.

6) Insurance companies will be required to enter into binding arbitration of an independent review commission for any denial of coverage for a specific test or procedure.

7) Corporations that operate in the US will no longer be allowed to claim their headquarters is located at a mailbox in Barbados to avoid paying corporate taxes (such as that one mile stretch in Barbados that has somehow managed to use space so efficiently that 16000 corporate headquarters are located there). 

8) Open-enrollment must be allowed once a year.

Those are a few things that going to have to happen to make it work.





Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 02, 2007, 11:50:26 am

And frankly I find the repeated charges of "I believe in the right, BUT IT WILL NEVER WORK" about the most frustrating one of all, and flies in the face of the fact that it indeed works all over the world, over and over and over.


Yeah, I find that frustrating as well.  It's the same thing with those who want to dismantle public education.  Every country that is outperforming our students in education is using public education.  So obviously, it's not a matter of something being inherently wrong with having public education, it is something our implementation that must be lacking. 

This whole notion that the private sector does everything better is another thing we need to discard as a bogus idea too.  While it certainly true that the private sector does some things better, I don't fancy the idea of having to hire my own police force, fire department, judges, buy my own roads, etc....

And I'll be really honest, I find 95% of the arguments for dismantling public education (the most often used example of why universal health care will never work in the US) sorely lacking in sincerity and extremely self-serving.  The vast majority of those who want to dismantle public education want to do so for reasons that have less to do academic performance and more to do with not liking the curriculum because it conflicts with their faith (evolution, geography, sex education).
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: FiercenBed on February 02, 2007, 01:26:23 pm
yes!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on February 02, 2007, 11:02:57 pm
... But clearly the government is not the solution. You keep bringing up Canada, My company which has developed a product that has gone from 2% market share to 40% market share in 5 years (The machine really is THAT good) has been unable to sell it in Canada because it wasn't on the government approved list of manufacturers..

Again, a typical bugaboo that those in the USA like to bring up.  Yes, I'm sure your machine is very nice and works better than the previous model.  But what is the real, quantifiable difference to patient care?  The proof would be in the numbers - since Canadian life expectancy is greater than the US (by a significant margin) your scenario doesn't hold.  It would be interesting to drill down to more specific scenarios, ie survival rate for HIV, cancers etc, perhaps someone else cares to do that.  The feeling here is that US doctors in many cases send their patients for unecessary, expensive tests and perscribe unnecessarily expensive drugs.  It might also be noted that malpractice suits here do not reach the outlandish proportions they do south of the border, which takes some financial pressures off docs and their insurers.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 02, 2007, 11:05:40 pm
But we're America!  We do everything best!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 03, 2007, 06:45:47 am
We've done okay here in America. We're not perfect, but we try.  :)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on February 03, 2007, 10:48:55 am
This debate ends up being more about national pride than health care.

No, but I am intensely proud that my country puts the health of it citizens before weapons.  And that we were one of the 1st to recognize gay marriage.

A joke here used to be that Bush Sr's "kinder, gentler, America" exists...its called Canada :)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 03, 2007, 11:27:54 am
The US is more than just Iraq and a fragmented health care system.  When the debate ends up being a pissing contest amongst nations, then it just puts some Americans on the defensive (some being the key word here)....and that leads nowhere (though maybe it makes the Canadians and Europeans feel that much better about themselves and their imperfect systems).  For all this talk about folks loving governmental health care, I find it odd that those who can afford to do so, can't wait to opt out of the system in favor of private health care.  When I received job offers (UK), they all highlighted their private health care schemes.  When I started working for a UK company, that was one of the first things my coworkers helped me set up.  Why?  And I quote ("if you need surgery or have cancer, you don't want to wait on the NHS").

Nope, the US is not perfect.  No federal gay rights.  No universal health care.  More crime.  More poverty.  Yadda, yadda, yadda.  All widely known facts.  But if given a choice, I would choose the US over Canada in a heartbeat.  But maybe that's about pride (and that maybe life is complex).   ;D

I can appreciate that my view is from someone who has always had health insurance, and that maybe my view would be different if I didn't.  But, I can't change that.  And I also can't change the fact that I preferred my US HIV treatment care over what I receive in the UK.  It's great and all (NHS), don't get me wrong.  If I need meds, I can get them.  But I feel like a number, not a person.  I have folks shuffling me from one office to another (i.e., passing the buck between the GP and the HIV clinic).  The government and its rules have too much say over my care (and rightfully so, since they are picking up the tab).  I have little choice (GP must reside in assigned my area....and I'm assigned a HIV doc).  If I need to see the doctor urgently or if I go to the minor emergency centre, I wait all day and still may never see anyone.  If I need to see a specialist it takes ages as there are waiting lists.  The clinics are very old looking and the technology looks outdated.  I had to deal with none of this in the US.  Granted, again, it's probably because I've always had good health insurance....but the fact that most Americans have health insurance and have immediate service is rarely discussed here (and probably factors into why so many are uncomfortable with changing the system radically).  People only focus on those that don't and then assume that the entire system must suck.  It doesn't.  It needs to be fixed, yes.  Much needs to be changed.  But it's not all gloom and doom.  There are some real benefit to the US system.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 03, 2007, 12:11:40 pm
No one is seriously going to argue with the quality of the health care you receive in the U.S if you have the best private insurance or the personal wealth to afford the best health care. I firmly believe that 48 million uninsured Americans would put up with the "inconveniences" of any civilised nations health care system for the security or peace of mind of health care coverage.

You can't compare the systems when America has no system to be compared with. What I can compare is having health insurance and not having health insurance and I will let you guess which one is better. There is nothing more debasing than depending on ADAP for your survival. Nothing more frustrating than not knowing if this time I won't be re-certified because I made fifty dollars more a paycheck this year than I did last year. Nothing more frightening than being refused a catscan because Adap does not cover it. Nothing more humiliating than knowing I might be forced to beg Lisa for my meds.

So try as we might we can continue to compare and contrast...unfortunately here in America we have nothing to compare it with.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 03, 2007, 12:31:13 pm
Dash, but you have the ability to buy additional coverage if you would like. Some of us don't that are on Medicaid and I will tell you my health care has been great and probably better than some of those that have good work provided coverage. I don't get second rate care, I'm not put on a waiting list to get tests ran or medication. Yes, there are some medications that aren't approved, but using the proper channels you can even get them. I just went through that process.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on February 03, 2007, 12:31:58 pm
Basically it's an issue of morality as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 03, 2007, 12:58:09 pm
Dash, but you have the ability to buy additional coverage if you would like. Some of us don't that are on Medicaid and I will tell you my health care has been great and probably better than some of those that have good work provided coverage. I don't get second rate care, I'm not put on a waiting list to get tests ran or medication. Yes, there are some medications that aren't approved, but using the proper channels you can even get them. I just went through that process.


Yes, I looked into that...most plans did not cover pre-existing conditions and the cheapest policy I could find was $1800 a month not counting huge copays and restrictions. Out of pocket would be $8000 before insurance would even kick in. Please forward all the information you have concerning affordable additional coverage, I've never heard of it. I'm glad you have great coverage under Medicaid, just wish we all did and that is what this discussion is about.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: newt on February 03, 2007, 01:09:59 pm
Being a Brit, I agree with a lot of what Cliff says.  Fact still stands, all residents have access to essential healthcare that's free at the point of need according to need.  True, we pay a shed load of taxes and do a lot of queuing (we like queuing).

Private medicine in the UK, good for routine stuff but when the going gets tough they, er, refer you to the NHS (it's just too expensive to make a profit).  And, bottom line, we live as long if not longer for half the per head spend on healthcare, and all those just-in-case MRI scans and nice chairs are really, medically speaking, unnecessary. 

Things in the UK need to change and improve, first of all the consultants need to get off the golf course on Fridays and do some surgery, and the management in the NHS needs to be management (er, bit more private sector please).  There are flashes of brilliance, like cancer treatment at UCL, where they put you in a nearby hotel suite, cos it's cheaper and less risk of infection, and dimbo stupid stuff like the hospital where the drunk consultant took out the wrong kidney TWICE and was still not struck off.  As ever, there are top hospitals and crap hospitals. And, living in the countryside, well things just suck. Confidentiality in the Shires? hmm....

Its universal access to care, not method of delivery/financing that counts.  There's no way you can compare the UK to the US easily, the perverse incentives in each system are different, and each has its merits/demerits.  But in the UK you will not meet people (legally resident) on the streets dying from OIs because they's uninsured and have no access to care, or (scandal this is) people whose life depends on annual re-approval of something like ADAP.  Indeed, not in Canada, NZ, Oz, France, Germany, Ireland, Brazil, fucking hell even Rwanda....

In the end, health care is a right, not an option, regrdless of system, like defence, water, sanitation.

- matt
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 03, 2007, 01:12:06 pm
Dash, but you have the ability to buy additional coverage if you would like. Some of us don't that are on Medicaid and I will tell you my health care has been great and probably better than some of those that have good work provided coverage. I don't get second rate care, I'm not put on a waiting list to get tests ran or medication. Yes, there are some medications that aren't approved, but using the proper channels you can even get them. I just went through that process.

I mean this with all do respect...how can you argue that Americans will never accept universal health care when you are presently covered under Medicaid? Your position on health care confuses me...you testify to great coverage, yet seem to be saying a system like medicaid would never work in America, yet it seems to be working for you.
I swear I am not trying to start an argument, but I must admit I am baffled by your position on this topic.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 03, 2007, 01:23:11 pm
Medicaid is not a universal coverage. It varies from state to state. Ohio just happens to have a good coverage so far. I'll tell you after April how good it is since we have to change and pick a MCP. As of right now we are allowed to go to any doctor, hospital or clinic and after the MCP kicks in we are limited to where we go. I'm just lucky nothing has changed in my care. I keep all the same doctors and clinics. All of the hospitals that are MCP approved are receiving federal money. Private sector for profit hospitals don't and will not be able to accept MCP recipients, for anything other than for life threatening illnesses and injuries.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 03, 2007, 01:28:24 pm
I mean this with all do respect...how can you argue that Americans will never accept universal health care when you are presently covered under Medicaid? Your position on health care confuses me...you testify to great coverage, yet seem to be saying a system like medicaid would never work in America, yet it seems to be working for you.
I swear I am not trying to start an argument, but I must admit I am baffled by your position on this topic.

I think many people who are presently insured or have other means covering their medical needs or care are afraid if we rock the boat then they will somehow fall out.   

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 03, 2007, 02:15:04 pm

No one is seriously going to argue with the quality of the health care you receive in the U.S if you have the best private insurance or the personal wealth to afford the best health care. I firmly believe that 48 million uninsured Americans would put up with the "inconveniences" of any civilised nations health care system for the security or peace of mind of health care coverage.




Truth to tell, many of those "inconveniences" that you speak of exist for the majority of the insured already.

I can't remember the last time I was sick enough that I felt I needed to see my doctor and actually got to see my doctor the same day.

More often than not, I'll get told "We can get you into see the nurse practitioner in two days".   And this is with good health insurance (United Health) which not only do I pay a goodly portion of premium, last year, they changed it so I actually have a deductible for my lab work before they start to cover that, and THEN after the deductible, I have to pay a percentage of the lab fees.  Two years ago under the same plan, I paid my premium and a co-pay for the office visit and that was it.  It's certainly not breaking my budget at the moment, but it is going further and further toward that.

Last time, I had conjuctivitis so bad I could barely see my computer scree (and that's what I do all my tasks at my job on) and when I called my doctor's office for an appointment, they almost laughed in my face at the notion of me getting in that day.

I ended up going to an in-network minor emergency clinic, had to fill out a shitload of paperwork and pay a co-pay of 50 dollars.   And the truth is, I hear the same kind of stories from people with other doctors and other clinics, so it's not a matter of just switching doctors.

And anyone who claims that there is no waiting in the US is kidding themselves.  When I was first diagnosed with HIV, there were approximately 3 doctors in town that had any experience with treating HIV.  I was able to get an appointment with the one that was the most qualified and recommended by the ASO and had been working with HIV patients since 1987, but it was a 3.5 weeks before they could "squeeze me in" for a full work up.   This was at a time when it was obvious that I was in pretty bad shape (on FMLA for almost 2 months with pneumonia, esophageal candiasis, and weighed 110lbs). 

About 2 years later, I got the joy of having my job outsourced to India.  I looked at COBRA and that was totally a joke...as if I could pay the price they wanted while on unemployment?   Fortunately for me, there was enough warning time of our site closing that I was able to get in on my boyfriend's coverage during open enrollment.

It seemed like every other option than that involved a huge wait.   I even tried applying for Medicare and/Medicaid and was denied because I made too much money in the year before that (as if that really had any impact on what I was making right then).   And I had to be denied that before they could try to put me on the waiting list for any emergency coverage.  We even looked at my veteran status and there is a waiting list there as well.

I managed, but isn't HIV enough of a burden without the joke that health care is becoming in our country? 

The inconveniences that I have heard from people in first world countries with universal health care seem pretty minor compared with my experiences with the so-called "best health care in the world".

When people use that last term, I am sure they are correct in some respect.  There are a few hospitals that can perform a six organ transplant, but how many people actually need that kind of care? 

Most people just need decent affordable health care that doesn't vanish the moment their employer decides to skip town or drops coverage because the premiums are too high.  They don't need the kind of health care one would expect the president of the United States to get.

Then you get things like that lady at Wal-Mart that was fired because a vendor offered to donate some cupcakes to help her raise money for an life saving operation for husband that her insurance wouldn't cover.  Apparently that was viewed as a "kickback" and she was terminated.

Or the elderly lady I work with who was fired because her FMLA ran out one week before she could return to work after extensive chemotherapy.

Or the woman I work with who would leave work for two hours to get her radiation therapy for breast cancer and have to come back and try to make it through the rest of the day so she wouldn't lose her job and health insurance.

I am certainly no attacking your position.  I agree with you...the inconveniences you brought up that we hear from other systems seem to pale in comparison to inconveniences we face right here in this country.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 03, 2007, 03:52:38 pm
Quote
So try as we might we can continue to compare and contrast...unfortunately here in America we have nothing to compare it with.
Agreed.

Its universal access to care, not method of delivery/financing that counts.
Matt, I agree with everything you just said, except for this one statement.  In an abstract, non-realistic sorta way, universal coverage is the only consideration.  But in the reality, I believe the method of delivery and financing is hugely important.  It is the method of delivery and financing that explains why the US hasn't move towards serious consideration of universal coverage.  Those who have good health insurance (and let's face it, they are the ones who are most likely to vote) do care about how health care will be delivered (to them) and whether or not they will a) pay more to cover others and b) will accept lower standards of care to cover others. 

Saying universal health coverage is a right (and poopooing the US for not having it) is a no-brainer.  Easy target practice America makes....  It's how you get there (and more importantly pay for it) given the current fragmented state of affairs that remains the difficult discussion.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: FiercenBed on February 03, 2007, 04:32:49 pm
i work w/ doctors and hospitals.....b assured health care in america is in meltdown.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Ann on February 03, 2007, 05:28:41 pm
One of the consequences of people being denied basic health care is people being diagnosed with serious conditions further into their development. This ends up costing far more, in many cases, than it ever had to. Especially for conditions that can be cured or slowed down if caught early.

The old saying comes to mind - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Ann
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: bocker3 on February 03, 2007, 07:33:24 pm
A few things that MUST happen in that scenario:

1) Health insurance must be unlinked from employers.

2) Pre-existing clauses MUST be eliminated. (They are pretty much bullshit anyway)

3) Insurances will not be allowed to dump people into high risk insurance, crap coverage insurance pools.

4) Premiums increases must face a regulatory board that takes real costs into account.

5) Insurance companies will not be allowed to cherry pick.

6) Insurance companies will be required to enter into binding arbitration of an independent review commission for any denial of coverage for a specific test or procedure.

7) Corporations that operate in the US will no longer be allowed to claim their headquarters is located at a mailbox in Barbados to avoid paying corporate taxes (such as that one mile stretch in Barbados that has somehow managed to use space so efficiently that 16000 corporate headquarters are located there). 

8) Open-enrollment must be allowed once a year.

Those are a few things that going to have to happen to make it work.

I think you are on to something here (contrary to what some think, I'm not in the "It should but can't happen here").  This sounds like the right way to start this switch.  I'm sure that it would evolve over time -- but of course, first we have to elect some folks to Congress with the balls to serve the people who put them there and not the deep-pocketed corporations.

I would add one more step:
9)  Employers should take what they had been paying for an employees health insurance and either put it in the "pot" to pay for this -- OR give it to the employees as an increase in wages, so help offset the needed tax increase.  Do NOT put it into the company's profits.

Mike
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 04, 2007, 08:19:18 am
Bush's budget proposal for 2008 will request a total of 245 billion to finance the war in Iraq and Afghanistan through 2008. He will propose squeezing about 70 billion in savings from the Medicare and Medicaid health programs over the next five years...if Al Qaeda don't get ya, your cancer will! :o
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 04, 2007, 12:09:03 pm

Bush's budget proposal for 2008 will request a total of 245 billion to finance the war in Iraq and Afghanistan through 2008. He will propose squeezing about 70 billion in savings from the Medicare and Medicaid health programs over the next five years...if Al Qaeda don't get ya, your cancer will! :o



I'm going to come right and say it:  I hate that blackhearted bastard in the White House.

Always enough money for Afghanistan and Iraq, never enough for Americans.

I think we could fund a universal health care system by selling tickets to piss on his grave when he finally chokes on his last pretzel.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: squareman on February 05, 2007, 08:46:02 am
I find it odd, living in a country which set up its socialised health system with a loan from the US ( :)) after WWII, where, after the Queen, the NHS is our most cherished institution (and biggest employer), that the US has people in need of lifesaving medicine on waiting lists for the drugs.  Re: "personally, I'd be willing to wait a bit more for the price tag", we live as long, if not a bit longer, in the UK compared to the US for half the per head expenditure on healthcare.  I do not say everything is perfect, you can't get an MRI at the drop of a hat, the chairs ain't always comfy, clinics can be a bit shabby etc, but as far as essential medical interventions go, I wouldn't be anywhere else.  Esp. for HIV. Even the most hardline conservative politicians say "if you want to get elected, don't fuck with the NHS".

- matt

Now playing: Radio 4, Today programme


You're right I almost forgot about that. After WWII the whole of western europe got huge loans from the US(Marshall Plan)to rebuild the continent. One of the things that happened in all of western europe during rebuilding was the creation of a social security system. Probably European society at that point could see the benefits very clearly having just suffered tremendously under german oppression. I personally regard social security (and mainly healthcare) as the only good thing to have come out of WWII. It was created and Europeans saw the necessity when they saw 50 million people loose their  lives and twice that number getting injured during WWII.

And I for one am not willing to do away with the system. It does explain however why at that point in time the US society did not see the need for such a system as the war was fought on foreign soil and I guess the military people that got injured did enjoy somekind of healthcare/health insurance.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 05, 2007, 09:21:01 am
Lawmakers expressed " sticker shock " over President Bush's proposed 2008 budget, which estimates 300 billion in new Iraq spending and 100 billion in cuts for Medicare and Medicaid. The budget also would " provide insufficient extra cash to maintain coverage for poor children currently enrolled in the Children's Health Insurance Program. " Hmmm, I wonder what other programs will be under-funded in the new budget? Care to make a guess? >:(
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 05, 2007, 09:30:27 am
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If you want to hate someone great I understand that. Would I like to see us get out of Iraq? Absolutely.  In fact don't ever vote for me for president because I'd lock down our boarders for a couple years and tell the rest of the world to piss on themselves.  We have our own problems right here.  When and only when our problems are solved would I even think about sending a single dollar to some one else.
 That being said why does everyone on this forum think George Bush is to blame for this? The guy has a finite amount of money to spend.  He chooses to spend it in a manner you disagree with.  OK  I get that.  My issue with your complaints is this.  The problem existed long before Jan 2000. The wonderful Mr. Clinton had the same 8 years to fix it.  He didn't.

  People have talked about our wonderful roads.  Please go visit the big dig OK?
People are claiming how wonderful Social Security is.  Is this the same Social Security that is tapped by every single congress since its inception? Please don't tell me you think there's just a pile of money somewhere that gets handed out as needed.The same Social Security that will likely be bankrupt in a few years. The same Social Security that many members can't get any money from even though they are permanently disabled?

  There is a finite amount of money folks.  Those people that do work can't support any more "government funded" programs.
Every Marxist/communist/Socialist society that has been tried has failed (Yes I know China and Cuba, China has developed a free market system).  It looks great on paper but everyone is forgetting about human nature.  Until you solve that little issue you can't have this wonderful society in which everyone is completely equal. Where no one has something that everyone else in the world doesn't. Aspiring to new heights is what drives us. It's who we are.

   How many people do you know that choose not to go back to work because they make more money on disability?  I know several. That is one of our problems.  We see nothing wrong with that. Before you scream. "See! everyone should make exactly the same money!" Let me ask this.  If your job in the utopian society everyone thinks will exist if we socialize everything is a really sucky job, say... chicken shit scooper upper at the chicken farm.... If that's your wonderful job and 100% of your wage goes to taxes, then the government allows you to live in one of it's houses, and eat it's food, which you're helping provide, If thats it...you can never get a bigger house or car, would you be motivated to go to work every day?  Would you be motivated to invent a better way to scoop chicken shit? Would you be motivated to go to school at night?  Oh wait....you couldn't...you have no money, the government has it all.
 The Universities are only for those that did well in high School or know an official anyway.
If that's your idea of utopia, please I beg you move somewhere that embraces those ideas. For all it's faults I believe in the free market system, I believe in America. If you truly hate this country so badly that you want to change the fundamental way of life, and you want to force those changes on me PM me  I will gladly send you a one way ticket to the utopia of your choice.  You can't ever come back though.
  If however you want to propose a way to ensure health care for those that don't have insurance in a manner that doesn't give the government any more control than it already does.  Please lets hear it.  Maybe we could get a law maker interested.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 05, 2007, 10:21:27 am
If nothing else the debate about health care will be brought to floor of Congress this year. Here are four national, universal health care proposals before Congress. If anyone was so inclined you could check out the Congressional Record for details of each bill-it's less painful than it sounds. We will have this debate for one reason only...Democratic control of the House and Senate. For the last twelve years Republicans blocked any health care legislation from even reaching the floor. Freed up from their tyrannical Republican masters there is even a bipartisan Senate proposal on the table this year.

Also for the naysayers who continue with the mantra, "it can never happen here," it already has. Mass has passed (MassCare if you are interested) universal health care that all 49 states will be watching. CA, Oregon, Vermont and Maine have pending legislation. I believe Hawaii already offers health care for all. So you see there is movement towards health care and I believe I will see it in my lifetime.

Here are the pending bills:

The United States National Health Insurance Act (H.R.676)
This would replace the existing U.S. insurance industry and all public health care programs with a full-fledged single payer system.

National Health Insurance Act (H.R.15)
This bill would create a new, nationally funded national health insurance plan that would be nationally funded but locally administered and implemented

Medicare for All Act (S.2229 and H.R. 4683)
This plan would expand existing Medicare program to all

Healthy Americans Act (S.334)
This plan ensures all Americans have private health Insurance coverage equal to or better than the coverage provide to members of Congress through a fair, market based system.

So there you have it...and unless Karl Marx rises from the grave with his endorsement, we will have this debate.







You want proposals...here are four I listed for discussion. I really don't know where to begin with the rest of your post but I will try. If you bothered to read all of the posts... no where, and I mean no where, did anyone advocate emulating health care systems of China, Cuba, or any other communist nation. We , for the most part, were comparing Western Europe, Canada and Australia, all which provide health care that is financed both publicly and privately. Yes, there are people on disability who cheat the system, but I doubt they are living the high-life...but the money lost pales in comparison to the corporate welfare cheats located off our fair shores. As for Clinton...seems to me he did bring health care up for discussion, only to have it sand-bagged by corporate controlled Republicans. If by hating someone "great" you mean George W. Bush I will let history judge his greatness. I do consider this budget his fault because it is based on financing of a war he lied us into.

The rest of the silliness you post is so off-base and intellectually dishonest that it does not deserve a response. Now that said, what would be your health care solutions and do you believe health care is right?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 05, 2007, 10:29:42 am
Grinch, I haven't heard anyone say that they hated America and if that is all you got from reading this thread, then it doesn't speak well of your reading comprehension.

America's health care system is in trouble.  BIG TROUBLE.   Trouble to the point that 90% of the people I work with in a job in the health care field are facing a pay cut when you match our increases in health care premiums with our pittance of a raise.  Trouble to the point that 47 million Americans have no health care at all and many of those people are working 40-60 hours a week.

And I will never understand people who think government-funded is such a horrible thing.  Does it bother you that our schools our government funded?  Does it bother you that the police and fire department are government funded?  Does it bother you that the roads you drive on are government funded?

In case you didn't bother to read the constitution WE THE PEOPLE are the government.   If we go to a government funded system, WE THE PEOPLE are the ones that are going to be paying for it.  The only difference is that instead of a for-profit insurance company jacking up your health care costs and premiums to enrich themselves at the expense of people who need health care, it will be paid for with our tax dollars. which in turn would be offset by the fact that we no longer are beholden to our employers to provide us with group coverage and make us act like beggars in our society.

And that old chestnut of "China and Cuba" being the propaganda tool to shut down discussion about making positive change to fix a system that is in crisis is a tool that might play well on the Rush Limbaugh show, but not reality.   Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Greece, France, Israel, Ireland, Japan, New Zealand, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Austria, and Belgium have somehow managed to make sure that their citizens have access to basic health care, but the richest and most powerful country in the world CAN'T?

Is that really your thesis?

I've been in the position of losing my so-much-better health due losing my job (mostly due to no fault of my own, unless you think that my campus was destroying Microsoft by making an average of 15 dollars an hour to do work they need....most of us with 4 year degrees).    Now I work in a position that I have to see our "great system" in action to the point that I have to send out hundreds of letters a day returning their unfilled prescriptions either due to inability to pay or non-coverage.

Is that your idea of a success story?

As for your detour into some marxist fantasy of everyone getting paid the same regardless, that is just drivel.  No one has suggested anything of the sort.

Try addressing the real issue of people being tied to a job they hate because they can't afford to lose their health care.   Or try addressing the fact that many of us, even with college degrees (and I am one of them) finding more and more and more of our paychecks being sucked up by insurance companies and returning less and less every year.   

And you think you have "choice" now?  The only choice you have is what your company can or will choose to offer for health coverage and what doctors, hospitals, medications, and procedures your coverage currently decides you should get.

Two other things.  People blame Bush (who has been president for more than half a decade) when he wants to funnel money from the most vulnerable and needy in our society and give it his war.  That's not the "Government's money".  It's OUR money.  American tax dollars. The other is I recall Clinton trying to fix our health care problems more than once and he was shut down by the republicans who held congress for the last 12 years.

Further, I would submit that while the rest of us have been openly discussing the problems in our health system as it stands and thinking of ways that it could be streamlined and corrected and changes that might help fix what you yourself admit is a system that has real troubles, you presume to lecture us and call us out as a bunch of commies and America haters for discussing the issue and try to make us feel ashamed for trying to reach that more "perfect union" our forefathers spoke of and trying to better our country's health care, you have offered nothing in the discussion as to how to fix the very real problems that exist in our health care delivery in the United States.

As the right wing talking heads are so fond of saying:  What's your plan?  Keep the status quo that is deteriorating faster and faster?

If you have some ideas to offer, by all means, I am open to hearing them, but I won't be lectured for having the wherewithal to discuss how to make our system more fair and equitable and provide access to all who truly need it.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 10:52:19 am
libvet, I've never heard so much crap in my life. You have terrorists on our soil, with suicide bombings and bombings of the tunnels, bridges and rail systems, telecommuncations and health care is going to be the least of our worries because you won't have any of the supplies needed. This country runs on transportation. Now do we fight them there or do we handle it on our soil?   
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 05, 2007, 11:01:06 am
I had no intention of calling anyone great.  I meant Ok...great.

Your solution's all call for government controlled health care. I am simply arguing against that.
I at no time personally attacked anyone.  I at no time personally called someone dishonest, stupid or beneath discussion.
I laid out thoughts as I see them.  Why then, when presented with an opposing view must everyone insist on calling names, focusing on grammar and punctuation, or dissecting a post to take things out of context.

Regarding publicly funded police, fire, and schools. They are all pretty bad. In a town of 2000 in the middle of no where our police department insisted they needed the tax payers to buy them M-16s! The fire department... Millions in equipment and overtime, yet they have never saved a single house. Schools? Have you had any high school graduates come work for you lately?

Choice?  I have a choice.  If I don't like the health care offered by my employer I change jobs. My original post stated a federally funded program would drastically slow research and the advancement of technology.  If you take the financial rewards out of the system, advancements slow. There is no incentive. The countries mentioned that have government controlled and run health care have not produced many new technologies or procedures. Where do the worlds leaders come for treatment?  Where would you go for treatment if push came to shove?  I fully believe that if I had been in a heath care system in which my treatment was government controlled I would have died.  I "saw" several people with Burkitts die because the government mandated which chemo regimens they could have.  My doctors could and did try things that were not the "norm".

Why did I delve into Marxism?  Every post suggests that our health care be completely funded by the tax payer. Every day our society tries to add more government control. All these programs take money.  Where does this money come from?  Increased taxes.  I already pay nearly half of my pay to different taxes and "fees".  Where does it stop?  Do you really believe we have enough free cash floating around to provide "free" health care for the world?  How will you prevent anyone from any where in the world from coming here, discovering they need a heart transplant and demanding we provide it?

My thesis is simple, We can't afford "free" health care.  The government does not do much of anything well, or efficiently.  Free health care will stifle progress of new technology, drugs, and procedures by taking away the financial incentive.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 11:11:22 am
Grinch, you won't get me to disagree with you, but then, I believe the United States is one of the best places to live. Look at the illegal immigrants, they must think so too. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 05, 2007, 11:29:44 am
I always blame Bush.  Everything is his fault.  When are you going to realize this.

The faster this man stops using up my oxygen the happier I will be.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 05, 2007, 11:33:23 am
Grinch, you won't get me to disagree with you, but then, I believe the United States is one of the best places to live. Look at the illegal immigrants, they must think so too. 

I can make this statement and the following statement and both are true independently of each other as well as concurrent TO each other.

Bush is a douchebag.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 05, 2007, 11:46:17 am
I can make this statement and the following statement and both are true independently of each other as well as concurrent TO each other.

Bush is a douchebag.

Regardless of my position on that statement, I will never argue your right to state this opinion publicly.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 05, 2007, 12:08:41 pm
The argument that universal health care will some how signal the death knell of laissez faire, capitalistic America is ludicrous on its face. In fact, statistics prove it would do just the opposite by freeing up private capital once used to cover sky-rocketing employee health care costs. Most economists and big business agree that health care costs hamper a company's ability to compete globally and would significantly level the playing field. Why do you think foreign car manufacturers continue to out-pace their American counterparts in research and development? The idea that countries with universal health care create a climate of stifled progress is ridiculous...patents for new drugs are being applied for that were developed by European pharmaceuticals...and universal health care has not destroyed their bottom line. Toyota leads the way in the "development" of fuel efficient cars...universal health care didn't strip their creativity. French doctors discovered the virus responsible for HIV all the while under the thumb of universal health care.

However, whenever a thread veers to the right it is always the same, tired ol' argument...immigrants, commies, socialists, terrorists and of course, "true Americans" would never go for this. Did I forget anyone? Oh yes, Bill and Hillary must always be used in the argument...without fail. The other thing that amazes me is when people argue against universal health care and are covered by the same system they argue against. If I believed the argument against these programs I would refuse my government supplied coverage, seek out private coverage and THEN argue the merits of no universal health care coverage for all.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 01:16:24 pm
That's something that we'll never have to worry about, because it is not going to happen. Terrorists, is something that we have to deal with and we've already have seen it happen.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 05, 2007, 01:30:34 pm
I don't believe that comparing cars to medical devices is apples to apples. If you propose giving a free car to every citizen I think you'd see a significant slowing of technological advancement.  If you had the contract to provide all the cars for the country, why would you bother creating bigger, better, more fuel efficient?  Your sales are guaranteed. That is my fear if the government model of health care is adopted.   Why would anyone bother inventing some new unusual feature when there is no one to sell it to?

  Just to clarify. I have a very detailed and working understanding of the process. I am a sitting and voting member of several committees that work with the FDA, Congress and other agencies, that limit and regulate the introduction of new medical devices to the US and World wide market place These committees are made up of a multi-national membership to include nearly every industrialized country in the world.
 There is no conjecture, or guessing on my part. Our biggest challenge is bringing life saving devices to market in a timely manner. These issues are time consuming and expensive in the US.  All but impossible in many countries. Some countries simply wait and see how it works in the US.  The countries that tend to take the wait and see approach are typically those that have "Universal and free health care"

Call me ludicrous if that makes you feel better. Too bad name calling is perfectly acceptable when you argue the "correct" side of an argument but expressly prohibited when you're on the "wrong" side as dictated by the members of this forum.

   I interjected my point, I asked for solutions to the problems present in todays health care system.  I acknowledged there is a problem.  I said, give me an answer that does not include letting the government "solve" the issue.  What I received in return was being called names, being accused of having poor grammar, (this coming from an individual that so idolizes a porn star he uses it for an avatar) and a host of other wonderful things. Bottom line is simple, people like me are making the recommendations to congress while people like you sit and cry about how horrible life is.  I asked for an answer because I really would like a solution, and because I am in a position to possibly help change things. The response was typical. "Let the government do it!  George Bush Sucks! George Bush Hates me!

I'll not bother participating further in this discussion, like every other two sided discussion here, if you don't agree you get called names or ridiculed.  Please go back to the porn discussions, it's what folks here do best.

Thanks for your time.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 05, 2007, 01:42:50 pm
300 What do I win?

Also, Grinch, I called Bush a douchebag not you.  And he has ruined quite a bit.  But besides all THAT.  You do have some valid points and many of those are the ones people take issue with.  I personally think you can do a hybrid model.  And for a somewhat thriving example of that just look at retirement.  Social Security (while it does have its flaws and needs some work) is a Government funded retirement program.  It has worked for nearly a century giving those that need it extra help.  (I also say that if you make x amount of dollars in a lifetime or you have a high networth you should be excluded from payments of SS and be able to write off what ever you put in starting when you turn 65!)  Along with SS you have a THRIVING independent financial planning industry.  Ranging in the BILLIONS of dollars, hell TRILLIONS of dollars.  Not everyone relies on the government for their retirement but those that DO need it are guaranteed to have it (for the time being).  I predict the same thing will happen with health care.  As it should.  The sheer WEALTH of this country will enable us to have a dual support system and it will be driven by those with money.  It cant go away as you point out for reasons of ingenuity and leaping forward and what not and with the wealthy alive and kicking...it WONT go away when they add the government side.

Damn...i didnt think I had an opinion!  SO take that shit to the bank!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 01:47:50 pm
At the next health science fair, you get a free blood pressure check.  ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 05, 2007, 02:29:56 pm
I will try one more time and leave it at that. I offered four, count em, four proposals for universal health care pending before Congress. I supplied the bill numbers if anyone was so inclined to read the proposals... Grinch,you wanted solutions I offered four, you never bothered to read them. Two-sided to you is always obtuse at best.

As for me, I volunteer with the Tennessee Health Care Campaign which is trying to obtain a guaranteed affordable plan for Tennesseans lacking health care. We believe health insurance companies should be required to offer a standard comprehensive health plan so that everyone knows what they are getting and that their health care needs will be met. Every Tennessean would have guaranteed access to a choice of standard, affordable plans, either buying it from private insurer, or from a public plan provided by an independent non-profit agency. Employers and insurers could choose to offer more coverage beyond the standard package of benefits. Everyone would have a choice of plans, private and public, that would be affordable to them based on a sliding scale. You are welcome to join me at our next regional training meeting in March, if you would like to learn more. We understand that the "solutions" you speak of will be accomplished only with a honest partnership between the private sector and government. If trying to find health care solutions for my brethren in the Volunteer State makes me a commie lovin' pinko fag...then so be it.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 05, 2007, 02:36:17 pm
HERE! HERE! Dasch!!!

(http://www.iisg.nl/~landsberger/images/csp01.jpg)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 02:52:46 pm
Dash, what I read of them so far, I didn't like. What is proposed in H.B. 676 is for public hospitals. Hospitals that are already are subsidised by the government. Private hospital for profit could not benefit. You will get medications, what they see as necessary. You can petition them for meds not on a list, but I can tell you right now they will deny you. Been there done that.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 05, 2007, 05:04:17 pm
That's something that we'll never have to worry about, because it is not going to happen. Terrorists, is something that we have to deal with and we've already have seen it happen.

Interesting sense of proportion.

On 9/11/2001, around 3000 people died in the worst terrorist attack on US soil in our history.  In 1993, 18 people died in a terrorist attack.

So, between 1993 and 2003 (just to round it to ten years), around 3018 people died an unnecessary death on US soil due to foreign terrorists.

Every year in this country approximately 18,000 die an unnecessary death due to lack of health care coverage.

That's around SIX 9/11's every single year.  That's SIXTY 9/11's  between 1993 and 2003. 

No one is against protecting our country.  Hell, all those awful socialist european countries manage to provide health care to everyone and have more threat of terrorism than we do.

How is it that they can manage that and we can't?

And what the hell does Iraq have to do with fighting terrorism?  None of the terrorists that hit us on 9/11 were Iraqis.  Iraq had no involvement in 9/11.

And don't even bother with the whole "flypaper" theory of our invasion.   The morality of putting innocent Iraqi civilians in harm's way from terrorists to avoid putting our own asses on the line is a non-starter and unworthy of anyone with a sense of morality and decency.  The flypaper theory is the equivalent of being shot at and picking up a small child to use as a shield against the bullets and it doesn't wash with me.

Quit giving excuses why we CAN'T fix our health care problems in the US and instead of red herrings and non-sequiturs.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 05, 2007, 05:17:23 pm
Umm, AcinKC., I hope with your rich person situation of not paying into SS and writing off what you do have to pay, you agree they shouldn't collect any SS when they're eligible either, right? ;)

Edited- maybe that is what you meant by the first part of this;??

Quote
high networth you should be excluded from payments of SS and be able to write off what ever you put in starting when you turn 65!) 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: squareman on February 05, 2007, 05:20:57 pm
Mmm. I would like to make another remark.

I have never understood why people like Grinch throw universal health care (insurance) together with communism. Uhm. Europe is not communist and at least the part where I live has never been. There is competition virtually in every part of our society. The only difference between the US and many EU countries is social security. It includes generally unemployment benefits, healthcare and pensions. And I am not saying that the sytem could not be better. Especially with the aging population most of our gouvernments are mainly working out the pension stuff (how to pay for it in the future). Universal Healthcare is never questioned.

Please! Please! Come over and visit our capitalist industries, shopping centers, restaurants and hospitals (yes the system is completely free market except for the health insurance). And see that we are not living in the backward slow-growth defaitist continent some american press wants to make you believe. And if we can pay for it being numbers 2,3 and onward on the ranking list of the worlds richest nations, having no money is not a valid excuse for the number 1 on that ranking list.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 05, 2007, 05:41:15 pm
Umm, AcinKC., I hope with your rich person situation of not paying into SS and writing off what you do have to pay, you agree they shouldn't collect any SS when they're eligible either, right? ;)

Edited- maybe that is what you meant by the first part of this;??
 

Yeah thats TOTALLY what I was getting at.  They SHOULD pay in.  But if their networth is X they shouldnt be able to recieve benefits but should start taking deductions based on past years averages or payments.  And should get those each and every year.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Longislander on February 05, 2007, 05:44:49 pm
sounds like a plan. But also up the amount where the annual SS withholding stops. Last I remember it was around 90k, and way too many people earn that much. No reason to stop paying in at that point!!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 06:49:57 pm
libvet, it maybe a no starter for you, but it concerns me a lot more than Universal Health Care does at the moment.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 05, 2007, 07:00:18 pm
Right now on CNN they just announced John Edwards is revealing his agenda for a Universal Health Care Plan!    If any of you think this isn't gona be the number one campaign issue next to terrorism maybe we should all watch and see what happens.

I'll be watching to hear what his proposal is as well as all of the candidates.   

I think you'd be hard pressed to find many who now still feel the war in Iraq was a good idea or that it had anything to do with 9/11.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't 14 of the 19 hijackers from Saudi Arabia?

That aside, I think if one good thing has come from this war is that more people are becoming involved and making their voices heard by voting.

Unless we have another major terrorist attack prior to 2008, healthcare is going to be a top issue.

So, just wanted to let ya'll know one candidate is already trying to propose something and we'll see if any of ya'll watch it and weigh in!

Wesley
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 05, 2007, 07:11:38 pm
Hey, lets take all the profits from the Oil Industry and use them to pay for health care and our bankrupt social security ponzi scheme. 
The only hope in saving SS is getting more and more people to plan for their own retirement. But unfortunately many people think that SS is gonna  pay for everything when in reality you can barely get by on what they pay out. You can also make a better return in savings bonds or government bonds than you can   with your money in Soc Sec. Its wasnt planned to be the ponzi scheme it has turned into, originally it was just a temporary safety net, but our pols have used it to buy votes and it is now a disaster. The only way out is to cut out the people who pay for it, the people who make a lot. hahahahaha . fucked again.
Yeah,we might have some universal health program but the more involved the government is the more fucked up it will get. Its what they do. They never downsize, they never cut costs, so it will become more and more expensive every year, and what we get in return will be of a lower quality than we get today. You will have the smartest and best people moving to other industries where they can make better money. Your doctor could well become the equivalent of some your public school teachers( about 90% of my teachers were worthless). We will also see more and more capital move from the pharma and medical industry to other sectors. Its what socialism does. It doesnt allow for the efficient distribution of capital, human or monetary.

I am not saying todays system isnt a freaking nightmare, I am just saying it could get a lot worse and will if government takes it over.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 05, 2007, 07:28:39 pm
I say we suspend all coverage. That includes medicare, medicaid, Ryan White and ADAP. Hell, old people are useless when it comes to fighting terrorists any way. We are wasting tax payers money extending the life of people who contracted a disease through risky behavior. In fact, we should ship every person with HIV to the middle east and let those bastards deal with it. We should suspend every social service in the U.S.of A. and if you die you die...if you suffer you suffer. Heck, you're just wasting space and using resources that could be put to better use. Just remember each death would in the end be a benefit to Americans over all. In a way it is your patriotic duty to suffer and die. God Bless America. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 07:40:09 pm
You're so funny Dash.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: whizzer on February 05, 2007, 07:43:46 pm
For the record, Rapid.  You seem to be extremely down on any kind of universal health care.

How is your own health care provided?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 08:05:50 pm
Whizzer, are you getting a bill for my health care cost? I didn't think so.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 05, 2007, 08:09:09 pm
Well, I think it's obvious that all of the naysayers have one thing in common.   They have medical care covered in one manner or another.   

I said it before and I'll say it again.   Those who are lucky enough to not have to be concerned about their situation are of course afraid to rock the boat for fear of falling out.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 05, 2007, 09:13:38 pm
libvet, it maybe a no starter for you, but it concerns me a lot more than Universal Health Care does at the moment.


Why?  What did the Iraqi people ever do to or for you that you would put their welfare ahead of your fellow citizens?

I'm going to be blunt, pretty much like the majority of Americans:  Iraq was huge mistake.  It was a mistake I protested against before it even began.   I certainly wasn't hiding under my bed afraid of the big bad Iraqi army massed at our borders.  Afghanistan was another story altogether and we had good reason for that, but we didn't finish the job there and the idiot son decided to settle old scores that weren't worth settling.

So let's lay our cards on the table.  If Bush came out tomorrow and said all public assistance for health care must end to win in Iraq, are you willing to die for this blunder in the Iraq?

And I am also going to chime in that I find it very strange that you are on public assistance and saying the 47 million Americans who don't have health care don't deserve what you have. 

How do you reconcile that? 

Whizzer, are you getting a bill for my health care cost? I didn't think so.

If you are on public assistance, maybe he is.  Ryan White, Medicare, Medicaid, ADAP.....Every single day that I go to work I help fund those thing with MY money and the money of every American currently employed.

Do you really believe our current system is working when 18000 people are dying every single year because they have no insurance?   When even more are suffering because they have no access to health care?

Honestly, if you had to read the letters from people who are choosing between treating their pain, treating their diabetes, treating their heart disease, treating their cancer and having to pick and choose which condition they can afford to pay to take care of and which one they just have to let deteriorate and pray they don't wind up even worse......I really don't think you could sit here and tell me that our system is working.  And I am not talking AIDS medications (and YES, I've had to send those prescriptions back unfilled for inability to pay as well).....I am talking about medications that might be a hundred dollars a month at most.

And I don't mean to sound callous, but why should the taxpayers help you, but not them?  For each of your HIV medications, 20 people that need medications that are a heck of lot cheaper than your medications could be funded and they are risking death just like you would without your medications.

I have a vision of America where we don't let people starve to death.  Where we don't let people die for lack of health care.  Where we don't force people to choose between food and medicine.

We are a great country and I am proud to have served my country, but we can be so much better than we are and the only people that are stopping it are people who are either too greedy or too lacking in empathy or just too apathetic to do something about the very real troubles that face us.

Every single first world industrialized country has determined that health care is something that NONE of it's citizens should have to do without.

Why can't America do the same?


Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 05, 2007, 09:21:05 pm

I said it before and I'll say it again.   Those who are lucky enough to not have to be concerned about their situation are of course afraid to rock the boat for fear of falling out.


I find it more interesting that the same mindset that calls itself "conservative" also claims to be the people most in tune with the "values of Christianity" that they claim are so much of part of what we are founded upon but they miss this little tidbit from the person the Christians claim to worship:

Jesus said to his disciples:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory,
and all the angels with him,
he will sit upon his glorious throne,
and all the nations will be assembled before him.

And he will separate them one from another,
as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right,
‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father.
Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
a stranger and you welcomed me,
naked and you clothed me,
ill and you cared for me,
in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say,
‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you,
or thirsty and give you drink?
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you,
or naked and clothe you?
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

And the king will say to them in reply,
‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did
for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left,
‘Depart from me, you accursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
a stranger and you gave me no welcome,
naked and you gave me no clothing,
ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
Then they will answer and say,
‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty
or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison,
and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you,
what you did not do for one of these least ones,
you did not do for me.’


For myself,  I agree with those who say a nation will be judged not on it's riches or buildings or it's military might, but on how it treats the most vulnerable among us.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 09:32:45 pm
libvet, you fall in the same category as whizzer a joke. For your information I paid into the federal government for 34 years in taxes. It's not a gift by no means. I don't get ADAP.  Tell me when you can live comfortably on 603 dollars a month. That isn't a sixth of what I was making a month.  If I could work I would. 603 dollars isn't squat. My nephew getting killed in Iraq, so you can sit behind a computer and bad mouth. That is one of my reason for disliking the Iraqi's. I would have pulled out a long time ago and dropped a bomb on them and then there would be no more discussion. As for Universal Health Care, you can talk all you want it's not going to happen no matter what politics are in office. So if you want the special care that you get, keep working.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 05, 2007, 10:04:08 pm
Here is an opportunity for everyone to weigh in on the John Edwards site proposing universal healthcare.   I am not endorsing him and I read a lot of rhetoric here that seems vague, but since no one paid any attention before I thought I'd share his website promoting universal healthcare for those who seem to lack any imagination.   And for the other naysayers who I personally feel have no moral or ethical compas!

So, if it's so outlandish why is one of the frontrunners for the Democratic side already pushing it?
 

Affordable Health Care for All Americans Is Achievable

http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2007/2/5/125735/3083
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 05, 2007, 10:13:56 pm
Here is the link to sign the petition if you feel universal health care is a priority for America from the John Edwards campaign.

I'll agree with Rod, that some of us can talk till we are blue in the face, but here is your chance to help put this issue on the agenda:

http://johnedwards.com/

I signed up for this and will likely post it on my own website and push it.   You can send the information easily to all of your friends and family as well.   I'm not advocating John Edwards or his campaign, but I am supporting this petition to make sure healthcare is on the forefront for the 2008 campaign.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 05, 2007, 10:50:22 pm
libvet, you fall in the same category as whizzer a joke. For your information I paid into the federal government for 34 years in taxes. It's not a gift by no means. I don't get ADAP.  Tell me when you can live comfortably on 603 dollars a month. That isn't a sixth of what I was making a month.  If I could work I would. 603 dollars isn't squat. My nephew getting killed in Iraq, so you can sit behind a computer and bad mouth. It one of my reason for disliking the Iraqi's. I would have pulled out a long time ago and dropped a bomb on them and then there would be no more discussion. As for Universal Health Care, you can talk all you want it's not going to happen no matter politics are in office. So if you want the special care that you get, keep working.

Don't presume to lecture me on hard work or service to our country.  I've done both.

I served my country over 20 years ago and while that certainly gives me no more right to bad mouth my government's policies, it certainly gives me the ammo to those who try to claim others are serving for MY freedom.  I served for my own freedom and love of county, thank you very much.  And I am sorry about your nephew, but the Iraqi people didn't come here looking for a fight, we went there.  If anyone is to blame for the death of our countrymen in that country, it's that warmongering silver-spooned jerk that decided that he was going to establish his legacy by trying to enforce democracy on a people without regard to their own wants or desires as nation or their ethnic background and culture.  Simply put, don't blame the Iraqi people....they didn't send our countrymen over there and they certainly didn't ask for America to come over there and kill tens of thousands of people and turn their country into a "bastion of freedom" that is so free that women and children can't go to the market or school without fear of having a car bomb kill them.   

And I will NEVER support, nor comprehend the "nuke em" mindset.   The notion of murdering (and it is murder) hundreds of thousands of people because they didn't greet us as liberators is an appalling concept and anathema to any sense of decency.

You think I get special care?  I pay 150 dollars a month for health insurance through my company.  I pay another 160 dollars a month in co-pays for medications.  I pay 170 dollars every three months for my office visit and blood work.  All told, I am spending 376 dollars give or take a dollar a month on health care alone.  That's approximately 1/4 of my income per month.   When all is said and done, I work 40 hours a week and still have maybe 400 dollars more a month to live off of than you do.  And that's after the a year and a half of working full time on the midnight shift at a convenience store while putting myself through school AGAIN after our oh-so-benevolent American corporations decided that 16 dollars an hour after 6 and 1/2 years of work was too much to pay when they could pay someone in India 3 dollars an hour to do.  So in addition, I get to pay two sets of student loans off (one for the previous career that was outsourced to India and one for the current job in the health care industry).

Then, just to put the icing on the cake, I get to pay for the health care of people with so little regard for the needs and health of their fellow citizens that they will gladly take my tax dollars to help them make ends meet and keep themselves healthy while begrudging and belittling anyone who does the same and praying I don't get sick or find myself without a job so that I won't have to put myself on a waiting list to get a little help so I don't die from lack of health care.   

And you wonder that I think we might be able to do better for ourselves as a country?

Maybe it has something to do with my upbringing.  I was raised in poverty.  The first time I got a brand new set of clothes that had no previous owner it was presented to me on my 18th birthday when I was given a free ride to boot camp and a bag full of uniforms and shaved head.   I remember way too many dinners that consisted of collard greens and corn bread that I only had because I came home from school and worked in my grandmother's garden to help produce enough food to get us through the winter.

I've never been rich, except maybe in spirit and empathy for my fellow man.    And I don't begrudge for one second if my tax dollars help put food on the tables of children, or medicine in the mouths of people that would spit in my face if I asked the same of them.    I believe in community and the common good.    And I hope that what I do for a living helps serves that...whether it's by providing medications to the sick or my tax dollars going to help those who need it.

And believe you me, I work with people who work as hard as I do and they are facing the prospect of having to do without health care coverage just to pay the rent.

You won't budge me from the position that health care has become such a burden to our corporations and populace and so necessary to a great and productive country that is incumbent on us to do away with those who are profiting from our health care dollar while providing no health care in return and serve only to enrich shareholders and executives to provide ideologues the false illusion that America has so much choice and so much better health care than the rest of our first world counterparts.   

I support the government managing our health care and covering all it's citizens with our tax dollars in a public/private partnership instead of our health care as a nation being dependent on what so-called free-enterprises decide we little people deserve while they line their own pockets and send our jobs overseas to get another couple of dollars per share.   

And honestly, more and more people are coming around to my way of thinking.....from politicians, to corporations tired of being fleeced by rising premiums they are required to pay, to people who work day in and day out in small businesses that can't provide health care while paying taxes that go toward other people's health care, to people just tired of being locked into a job they hate because they can't afford to give up the dubious benefit that being employed at a job that is sucking the life out of them gives them by providing the opportunity to partake in group health coverage that in the end is not really any better than what every country with universal health care already gets as a matter of citizenship.

But hey, it's still a free country.  You are free to stand beside and support a system that so many of us are coming to realize is failing.    From where I stand, that kind of "protect the status quo at all cost thinking" is the same kind of thinking that says sodomy will always be illegal and blacks and whites should be prohibited from marrying one another.   

If that is your choice, fight for it.....just don't expect me to stand by your side defending that status quo.   I am simply not psychologically equipped to watch so many people struggle with something that is so very basic a need in life.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 11:13:38 pm
You have the right to your opinion and I have mine. When I get to the point that I'm using your tax dollars, I'll be sure to let you know. ;)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 05, 2007, 11:25:41 pm
You have the right to your opinion and I have mine. When I get to the point that I'm using your tax dollars, I'll be sure to let you know. ;)

You know you just used your own nephew's death to I guess somehow support your stance on why people shouldn't have healthcare, unless of course that someone is you.

This has gotten me to wondering if according to your own values that perhaps it was a blessing your nephew was a casualty and fortunately not just another returned quadrapalegic who'll be left to some shabby home for our heros or sucking out of the system helping you?

 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 05, 2007, 11:45:04 pm
You know you just used your own nephew's death to I guess somehow support your stance on why people shouldn't have healthcare, unless of course that someone is you.

This has gotten me to wondering if according to your own values that perhaps it was a blessing your nephew was a casualty and fortunately not just another returned quadrapalegic who'll be left to some shabby home for our heros or sucking out of the system helping you?


Austin, if it weren't for mental illness I wouldn't forgive you for that sick statement. But this disease does inhibit one thinking.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 05, 2007, 11:52:33 pm


Austin, if it weren't for mental illness I wouldn't forgive you for that sick statement. But this disease does inhibit one thinking.

Rod, I'm sorry you have mental health issues.   I wasn't aware.   

Wesley
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 06, 2007, 12:02:07 am
 :D
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 06, 2007, 12:18:58 am
This is very entertaining, but let's regroup.

I really want to hear from Rod why he thinks universal health care for all Americans is either:

A) Totally unworkable, despite the fact that every other first world country manages it.

B) A totally bad idea.

It's all good and well to say "Bad! Bad universal health! No likey!"

It takes a bit more effort to defend your position with reason.

I'm certainly open to hearing alternative viewpoints. However, if one can't do more than repeat tired cliches, it makes discussion less than satisfactory.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 06, 2007, 12:39:50 am
 libvet, I'm not going to waste anymore time on this. It's not going to happen in the US in your's or my life time. I do believe they will come out with more aid packages for health care for each state, but not a Universal Health Care across the board.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 06, 2007, 02:33:54 am
This is very entertaining, but let's regroup.

I really want to hear from Rod why he thinks universal health care for all Americans is either:

A) Totally unworkable, despite the fact that every other first world country manages it.

B) A totally bad idea.

It's all good and well to say "Bad! Bad universal health! No likey!"

It takes a bit more effort to defend your position with reason.

I'm certainly open to hearing alternative viewpoints. However, if one can't do more than repeat tired cliches, it makes discussion less than satisfactory.

Hey Libvet,

I am more interested in hearing what you think of John Edwards proposing Universal Health Care so early on in the presidential campaign and what you think of ideas proposed here:

Affordable Health Care for All Americans Is Achievable

http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2007/2/5/125735/3083
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 06, 2007, 02:36:55 am
Here is the link to the 7 page preliminary preposal if anyone would care to read it:

http://johnedwards.com/about/issues/health-care-overview.pdf
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 06, 2007, 05:04:49 am
John's plan seems okay.  It's not anything radical in terms of what has been proposed in the past.  I suppose the big issue is how will you pay for it.  He says that there would be an elimination of the Bush tax cuts on those making $200k or more and new taxes on businesses.  If you cover 47 million people (assuming undocumented workers would be covered) and assuming a cost of $300 a month per person, that's roughly $169 billion a year.  A lot of money, but not too far out of reach considering how much we are spending on the war on terrorism and the war on drugs.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 06, 2007, 06:20:59 am
why are the Dems pushing  Health Care? You have to be kidding. Look at everything they push,its all redistribution of wealth and increase in govt size, and to get votes. Why are most pols against Iraq now,even though many of them voted for it?  They  are gutless and go with the crowd rather than lead.
There is a chance to get some type  of national insurance coverage and that is by getting US corps behind it. Why are employers responsible for health insurance? go figure. Thomas Freidmans plan makes a lot of sense and is a better plan than the dems tired old attacks on rich and anyone who makes over 75 grand a year.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: blondbeauty on February 06, 2007, 08:50:01 am
One thing is clear. In the USA is where you can find the best medicine available. That is why people from other countries go to Houston, for example, to recieve treatment for cancer.
It is also the country that invests more in research in every field. This proves private investment can obtain excellent results. Unfortunatelly this rarely happens in other countries. Europe is far behind USA in research and Spain even more, where our scientists often have to go to the USA to obatin the support and money for their research.
But for countries in which private investment is very poor (Spain) a Public Health System in needed because no private company is willing to do so. In fact, when you read about the very little progress made in Spain in the HIV field (see the therapeutic vaccine with dendritic cells) it is always sponsored by public money in public hospitals.
You are lucky to have one of the very best private health systems in the world. It would be perfect if the 100% of the population had access to it. I don´t think it is necessary to create a paralel public health system. Making the system you already have accesible to everybody would be better.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 06, 2007, 08:53:40 am
    Those that are on the attack, by which I mean those that continue to belittle anyone that disagrees with them, have changed the argument significantly.

The original posts talked not about universal health care, but of a "Single payer" system. A single payer can only mean one thing. Paid for by the government.  Simple logic would lead one to believe if the government is the single payer they will also be the sole provider. Or that they will tightly control what treatment may be given and to whom.

  That is what people are arguing about.  That is what people like myself are deathly afraid of.  Reading the horror stories of the folks on this very forum that are on waiting lists should be enough to make anyone go running and screaming from the thought of a wholly government funded system.

   Now those that argued loud and strong for this single payer system have changed it to "Universal Health Care"  A universal plan simply means everyone has some form of health care.  It's a given that we all agree on that. Please debate your side, but lets not hide our true feelings. Are you arguing Universal care or federally funded and controlled "single payer" health care.

   There's quite a difference.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 06, 2007, 09:48:19 am
The reason you keep reading of the "horror stories" of people on waiting lists is the primary reason we need universal care.

If you followed this forum throughout the entire debate you will see differing opinions concerning how universal care could be implemented. Once again for your edification I will try and explain my position. To answer the question first asked in this topic, yes, I believe health care is a right.

In order to come to my own personal choice I have done some research and implore others in the debate to do the same. I offered up the House and Senate bill numbers of bills now before Congress and a link to MassCare. I took the time to read each proposal and my personal favorite is the bill offered up by Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon http://wyden.senate.gov/. I am not going to spoon feed forum members and people can throw around all the buzz words and terms they like, but I find it frustrating and intellectually dishonest to say the least. How can I debate you in the topic if you will not give me the common courtesy of at leasting reading Wyden's proposal.

So I won't waste my time with this topic anymore but will continue working on the Tennessee Health Care Campaign. Why?...because the only thing I am deathly afraid of is losing ADAP and naysayers who offer no solutions of their own.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 06, 2007, 10:15:10 am
played golf this weekend with a guy who is in residency to become a Neuro Surgeon. He is 35. He is making minimum wage. Why is he doing it? In a couple of years if he plays his cards right he could make 2 to 3 million a year,minus 40% yearly overhead. If any new system limits the income a person can make,no one is gonna get into it. It is too difficult and takes so long before you are rewarded.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 06, 2007, 10:32:26 am
why are the Dems pushing  Health Care? You have to be kidding. Look at everything they push,its all redistribution of wealth and increase in govt size, and to get votes. Why are most pols against Iraq now,even though many of them voted for it?  They  are gutless and go with the crowd rather than lead.
There is a chance to get some type  of national insurance coverage and that is by getting US corps behind it. Why are employers responsible for health insurance? go figure. Thomas Freidmans plan makes a lot of sense and is a better plan than the dems tired old attacks on rich and anyone who makes over 75 grand a year.

What is it about right wingers that every time someone starts discussing how to deal with the very real problems facing a substantial portion of the American populace the only thing the right wingers can add to the discussion is tired cliches about how bad the government is (which is essentially saying we our people are bad...since our government is of the people, by the people, for the people) or redistribution of wealth.

Do you really believe that we need a society where the offspring of those who did acquire wealth are allowed to sit back for generations on end in idle luxury living off the fruits of labors they themselves did not earn?  That's an aristocracy, not the beloved meritocracy that right wingers claim to love so much.

That kind of idiocy is why instead of doing like FDR did and raising taxes on the wealthiest to help fund WW2, Chimpy McCokespoon is offering tax cuts to wealthiest while driving the country into massive debt to the Chinese communists to the point that now he wants to take even more from the have nots to fund his war while leaving his blue-blooded brethren unscathed.

And don't give me any garbage about the so-called benevolence of rich and trickle down economics. 

You want to know about trickle down economics?  90 percent of the people I work with are currently facing a pay cut while the our Fortune 500 company is making record profits and our CEO is getting an extra 10 million in pay.   That's the reality of trickle down economics.  It's a REAL redistribution of wealth, from redistributing wealth from workers making 9 to 15 dollars an hour to people already wealthier than you and I will EVER be.

And quit parroting your Rush Limbaugh numbers at me.  Rush Limbaugh is multi-million who made his fortune convincing blue-collared workers that they were the reason for all the problems in America.  He isn't looking out for you.  He's looking out for his own checkbook and you are being manipulated.   It's that same BS that right-wingers like to say everyone on the left thinks anyone making more than 75k a year is rich, but you can't back it up.

The situation has gotten to the point where everything is skewed on behalf of the wealthiest in our country.   40 years ago, the average CEO made 20-30 times the salary of his average worker in his company.   Now that figure is 400-600 times.    That's how "trickle down" REALLY works in practice.   Trickle down sounds good on paper, but so does Marxism.....but in practice, NEITHER work.

In Japan, that model of efficiency and free enterprise that right wingers like to point to, the average CEO is making 17 times the average wage of the worker.  And it works!  Imagine that.

I will truly never understand why an average joe would place his sympathies more with the top 1% than the bottom 50% that is struggling to get by.   Do you honestly believe in the 50's and 60's the wealthy weren't living the life of Riley, before the era of bloated overcompensation for top tier in the company while worker wages remain stagnant?  The only thing I can figure is that the average right winger, working a 9-5 job thinks someday if he works hard enough, he's going to find himself one of those top 1%.  But I have the feeling you are going to come around to a reality that it really isn't going to happen when you find yourself at 70 years old and have had your life savings wiped out by quadruple bypass or half your annuity is going to pay for medications. 

That's the reality we face in America now.

Which brings me to the point.  I have absolutely no problem taxing the wealthiest Americans at a higher rate.   We've tried both ways in our society.  When the wealthiest were taxed at a higher rate, the standard of living of all Americans went up, our infrastructure was better, our schools and public services were better.   Before that, we had the so-called gilded age which is a model for where we are going now.  The very wealthy put the majority of their money into luxuries and their children lived in idle wealth while looking down on the abject poverty of the majority of Americans.

Is that the model you see for America?

I don't.  I certainly have no intention of taxing the wealthy into the poor house.   Despite all the protests from the right, that hasn't ever happened and isn't going to happen now.

But quit looking out for the richest of Americans at the expense of the average and most vulnerable workers of America, because the wealthy you are so concerned with won't give you a second thought.  The vast majority of them are much more concerned with how many more zeros they can add to their own check book.....not how the workers in their own companies being given less and less a share of the fruits of their labors.

And as far as the government managing health care.   They already do it better than insurance companies, for all the vaunted cries of the right about the free market.  While insurance companies are sucking up 15 to 30 percent of your health care dollar for "administrative costs", Medicare manages to do the same thing for 2 percent of the health care dollar it gets.

So I say, let's get the insurance companies out of our wallets stealing our health care dollars and let that money go into public/private partnership where the government manages our health care dollars to all Americans while reimbursing the doctors and hospitals and labs and pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies for the services they provide.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 06, 2007, 10:38:04 am
played golf this weekend with a guy who is in residency to become a Neuro Surgeon. He is 35. He is making minimum wage. Why is he doing it? In a couple of years if he plays his cards right he could make 2 to 3 million a year,minus 40% yearly overhead. If any new system limits the income a person can make,no one is gonna get into it. It is too difficult and takes so long before you are rewarded.

You are soooo right Jake....what was I thinking? That is why I would support a plan of eliminating all social services so your golfing buddy can make...heck, why three...why not ten...why not fifty mill a year?

edited, because it is just not worth it
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: blondbeauty on February 06, 2007, 10:38:34 am
I am recieving my HIV treatment from the National Health System. I was put on meds when I wanted with no waiting lists. The Dr. gave me my prescription immediately and 10 minutes later I was driving home with my meds.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 06, 2007, 10:55:17 am
All it takes is the largest political party contributors and lobbyists to threaten and the Universal Health Care idea goes by the waste side. Clinton tried, where did it go. Yep, file thirteen. Why, because that is where they get their money. How many here gives thousands of dollars to a political campain? You will never be able to infringe on big business.The politicians aren't going to screw with the contributors that gave them money to get into office. This is where this subject ends.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: ACinKC on February 06, 2007, 11:02:22 am
why are the Dems pushing  Health Care? You have to be kidding. Look at everything they push,its all redistribution of wealth and increase in govt size, and to get votes. Why are most pols against Iraq now,even though many of them voted for it?  They  are gutless and go with the crowd rather than lead.
There is a chance to get some type  of national insurance coverage and that is by getting US corps behind it. Why are employers responsible for health insurance? go figure. Thomas Freidmans plan makes a lot of sense and is a better plan than the dems tired old attacks on rich and anyone who makes over 75 grand a year.

The Democrats are responsible for the most monumentous and humane programs in the history of the country JACK!  If you want to talk about BIG government just look at DOUCHEBAG BUSH!  The governtment is 3 times what it was!  They are against Iraq now because this administration LIED to EVERYONE!  It is up to the rich to fund this stuff, they did it during the great depression and that compassion turned this country into a super power.  As the republicans have GAINED ground, the compassion has been lost.  It will come back my friend.  BANK ON IT!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on February 06, 2007, 11:13:10 am
We have neurosurgeons in Canada ::)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 06, 2007, 11:27:07 am
All it takes is the largest political party contributors and lobbyists to threaten and the Universal Health Care idea goes by the waste side. Clinton tried, where did it go. Yep, file thirteen. Why, because that is where they get their money. How many here gives thousands of dollars to a political campain? You will never be able to infringe on big business.The politicians aren't going to screw with the contributors that gave them money to get into office. This is where this subject ends.

Rod, I do agree with you on this partially.   The part I agree with is all the contributions made to political campaigns.   This sickens me.   

However, I have to wonder when someone like the Gates or Warren Buffet donate billions to charity if perhaps there is a bit of change in the air.   All it would take is for one or two other billionares to fund a campaign for Universal Health Care and reprogram America to think it's a good idea.   Or, if let's say the majority of voters feel universal health care is a good idea.   

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 06, 2007, 11:35:34 am
You can't vote on anything that can't pass through both houses and be put before a voters to be voted on. It doesn't matter that Gates and Buffet donated millions to a cause. People can't donated millions to a political party. There is a limit to how much a political party can receive from individuals. I believe that they are working to even lesson that amount.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 06, 2007, 12:25:46 pm
Well, this is unusual for our good ole Red state of Texas.   Our Governor here in Texas has started of his State of the State Address focusing on health care issues.   That's a first from him.   Seems as though even the Republicans are starting to worry bout the health care issue already perhaps?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 06, 2007, 12:50:06 pm
And watch them back track like they did when Clinton was in office when the corporate giants start putting pressure on them.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Ann on February 06, 2007, 12:56:36 pm
The politicians aren't going to screw with the contributors that gave them money to get into office. This is where this subject ends.

Yes, very true. That's something else that needs to be fixed - the fact that corporate America can buy so much influence in how the country is run.

 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: squareman on February 06, 2007, 02:41:58 pm
One thing is clear. In the USA is where you can find the best medicine available. That is why people from other countries go to Houston, for example, to recieve treatment for cancer.
It is also the country that invests more in research in every field. This proves private investment can obtain excellent results. Unfortunatelly this rarely happens in other countries. Europe is far behind USA in research and Spain even more, where our scientists often have to go to the USA to obatin the support and money for their research.
But for countries in which private investment is very poor (Spain) a Public Health System in needed because no private company is willing to do so. In fact, when you read about the very little progress made in Spain in the HIV field (see the therapeutic vaccine with dendritic cells) it is always sponsored by public money in public hospitals.
You are lucky to have one of the very best private health systems in the world. It would be perfect if the 100% of the population had access to it. I don´t think it is necessary to create a paralel public health system. Making the system you already have accesible to everybody would be better.

I am amazed to read something like this from a fellow european.

Many countries in the EU have big pharmaceutical companies developing new products. In this country (the size of maryland and with only 10 million people) there are over 150 pharmaceutical companies present. This tiny country exports more medical products than the whole of the USA(source: newsweek). The biggest research center in the world for anti HIV drugs (tibotec) is in this country. True there are big differences between member states of the EU (Denmark, Sweden and Belgium being best of the class - spain being among the worst) but blaming that on universal health insurance is wrong.

Health insurance is one thing - how well a certain economic sector is developped in a country is quite another. You make it seem as if a universal health care system is needed because spain would be in somekind of way a poor country?(I thought it was not). Now how do you explain all these other countries making up the list of the worlds richest nations that provide universal health care? Certainly not because they are poor???
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 06, 2007, 03:33:16 pm
I almost said something about the post from the guy from Spain.  Houston is supposed to be some meca of superior physicians and hospitals and cutting edge technology.

My parents live in Houston.   Shortly after my HIV diagnosis last year my dad's doctor claimed he had cancer.   Well, after a merry go round of opinions from various specialists all claiming he had cancer or they couldn't determine this or that.   Anyways, this went on for months. 

Finally, fed up with inaccurate and inconclusive tests my dad ended up going to the Mayo Clinic having several biopsies.   The final result was that he was cancer free.

Anyways, I thought I'd share just how great the private medical system was for my own dad living in Houston.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 06, 2007, 04:06:49 pm
To be fair to BB, the point he was making is that a disproportnate share of healthcare investment is done by the US.  The US is resposible for 50% of drug R&D.  He did not say Europe doesn't research or doesn't export medical technology, just that they spend less on development (as a whole or per capita) than the US. 

It's easy to play games with stats.  For example, Ireland exports more drugs than most countries.  That's not because there's some sort of hot bed of drug R&D going on in Ireland, but that the government has favorable tax laws, so drug companies will set up manufacturing sites in Ireland and ship their products from that country to other countries.  But if you just looked at the export stats for Ireland, you would think it was the haven for drug research.  Or Belgium laying claim to Tibotec (not sure about it being the largest HIV research in the world.... that seems like a stretch given that it's just a company with 3 drugs in its pipeline). Plus, it's a bit ironic because Tibotec is a division of an American company (J&J).  It's all games and you can spin the stats to support any argument. 

Yes, the US has a disporpornate share of R&D.  Yes, the US is almost always the market drug companies take their products to first.  But that's probably due to the fact that the US, a) doesn't have price controls so companies can charge more for their products, b) is the largest market in the world so companies can get the most bang for their buck, and c) has the largest capital (stock/corporate debt) markets in the world....so companies can raise more capital for investment/start-ups in the US than elsewhere.  It's not because the US doesn't have universal health care (but I don't think that's what BB was saying anyway...he was just making the point that you need a strong private system to spur investment in addition to a public one to ensure the entire population has adequate cover.  That seems like a reasonable point to me.)
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 06, 2007, 05:01:26 pm
Yes, very true. That's something else that needs to be fixed - the fact that corporate America can buy so much influence in how the country is run.

 

It's known as the politics of the empty chair.  When lawmakers get together to create new legislation or change a current one, there is a seat for everyone to voice their viewpoints on the matter.  One for the lawmaker, one for the corporate lobbyist, one for the White House and one for the people.  Unfortunately, for our voice, we get an empty chair with NO ONE to truly represent the viewpoints of the people.

In theory, our legislators are supposed to be that voice, but all they get is spin from the corporate lobbyists and White House because they have the money to buy a place at the table or the power to demand a place at the table, respectively.   That legislator hears from those two and the voice of the people is relegated never truly heard, or if they are heard, someone dismisses them as being a "special interest group".   

The same people that decry special interest groups in Washington seem to have no problem with special interests groups funded by corporations to represent the corporation's viewpoint.   

And that problem has become that much worse in the 12 years of republican congress which had a revolving door of corporate interests paying lobbyists who were ex-congressmen with access who used their time in congress to make contacts with the corporate lobbies so they would have a nice cushy job when they left congress along with people like Tom Delay putting pressure on lobbyists to fire anyone who didn't support their party on pain of lack of access.

At one point, we could rely more on the journalists to somewhat mitigate that problem, but thanks to the republicans continuing to erode the rules about media consolidation, instead of journalists being independent, they have become another mouthpiece for the megacorporations that own them.

The end result being that instead of the government for, of, and by the people that our founding fathers envisioned, we have a government that is for, of, and by the corporations.  It has gotten to such a point that corporations have more rights than and legal protections than a citizen (and if you don't beleive me, try hiding your income in Barbados and see how fast the government comes down on you or see how they made it easier for corporations to file bankruptcy while making it more difficult for individuals to file bankruptcy, the majority of whom do so due medically expenses sadly).

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: squareman on February 06, 2007, 07:33:33 pm
To be fair to BB, the point he was making is that a disproportnate share of healthcare investment is done by the US.  The US is resposible for 50% of drug R&D.  He did not say Europe doesn't research or doesn't export medical technology, just that they spend less on development (as a whole or per capita) than the US. 

It's easy to play games with stats.  For example, Ireland exports more drugs than most countries.  That's not because there's some sort of hot bed of drug R&D going on in Ireland, but that the government has favorable tax laws, so drug companies will set up manufacturing sites in Ireland and ship their products from that country to other countries.  But if you just looked at the export stats for Ireland, you would think it was the haven for drug research.  Or Belgium laying claim to Tibotec (not sure about it being the largest HIV research in the world.... that seems like a stretch given that it's just a company with 3 drugs in its pipeline). Plus, it's a bit ironic because Tibotec is a division of an American company (J&J).  It's all games and you can spin the stats to support any argument. 

Yes, the US has a disporpornate share of R&D.  Yes, the US is almost always the market drug companies take their products to first.  But that's probably due to the fact that the US, a) doesn't have price controls so companies can charge more for their products, b) is the largest market in the world so companies can get the most bang for their buck, and c) has the largest capital (stock/corporate debt) markets in the world....so companies can raise more capital for investment/start-ups in the US than elsewhere.  It's not because the US doesn't have universal health care (but I don't think that's what BB was saying anyway...he was just making the point that you need a strong private system to spur investment in addition to a public one to ensure the entire population has adequate cover.  That seems like a reasonable point to me.)

I think you are right this is not a question of one or the other but both, to my opinion.
But I too my knowledge do not see at all what r&d has to do with universal health insurance - I was merely stating that it is just that and people should stop blaming public health insurance for anything that can go wrong with a countries economy or total health system, nor should see it as a step up to a complete private system.
Maybe I interpreted the message completely wrong, at least, completely different than you did.

I just try to proove that in this discussion, for as far as I can see it, a lot of untruths are used to defend the position against any kind of public financing of universal health insurance. Being in a region where these systems are widespread I can clearly see how utter lies are told to support one point of view.

As for the bragging about my little country - well I generally get my data from american, hardly described as liberal, media like newsweek and time magazine - or on international ressources like OECD websites.

I do not want to discuss things like an american company that bought tibotec is now the shareholder and so on and so on... it is a proven fact that european and american economies and companies are strongly financially interconnected. The US spends 99 percent of its income, so if it wasnt for europeans saving up money there would be no money in the US to make investments, and if it wasnt for the enormous us consumer spending europeans could not export their goods to the US. Just trying to show that its a global world. I know you are a very proud american and you defend your nation bravely. I am just doing the same thing. Mind you I could write even longer posts about things that could be improved, and I guess you can too.

And to conclude my opinion: The US can have Universal Health Care if its people want to have it.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 07, 2007, 12:57:17 am
One more thing I'd like to point out that has not been brought up in this thread except peripherally is on the topic of research.

I've read more than one post that dismisses the notion that medical progress can take place in the presence of government run health care.

But I note that not a single person has mentioned the very first approved antiviral was AZT which was created under a grant from the NIH in the 1960's.

I bet most of us would be extremely surprised at how many medications have been created using private research funded by the government.

In fact, it would probably come as complete shock to many to know that 42 percent of research and development dollars for medications is funded by federal government grants.

Couple that with yet another 11 percent of funding that comes from non-industry sources such as private foundations, state and local grants, and donations and we have less than 50 percent of research and development of medications being funded by industry.

I wonder how that fits into the world view of those who think government has no role to play in development of treatments?

And one also wonders.....those figures above are just for medications.    I would imagine that the role of the government in funding research on new medical techniques and experimental surgeries is somewhat higher.  After all...surgical technique isn't quite the kind of commodity that is able to be bottled and sold.   As an independent contractor, you might make a decent profit until the procedure becomes widespread since your services are exclusive, but do you really think that doctors have to pay royalties to the creator of the appendectomy for removing an appendix?  And without the profit motive, is it really wise to believe that corporations would wasted billions of dollars funding research a new surgical technique?

Just some food for thought.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: gerry on February 07, 2007, 02:43:02 am
I think you are right this is not a question of one or the other but both, to my opinion.
But I too my knowledge do not see at all what r&d has to do with universal health insurance - I was merely stating that it is just that and people should stop blaming public health insurance for anything that can go wrong with a countries economy or total health system, nor should see it as a step up to a complete private system.
Maybe I interpreted the message completely wrong, at least, completely different than you did.

I just try to proove that in this discussion, for as far as I can see it, a lot of untruths are used to defend the position against any kind of public financing of universal health insurance. Being in a region where these systems are widespread I can clearly see how utter lies are told to support one point of view.

As for the bragging about my little country - well I generally get my data from american, hardly described as liberal, media like newsweek and time magazine - or on international ressources like OECD websites.

I do not want to discuss things like an american company that bought tibotec is now the shareholder and so on and so on... it is a proven fact that european and american economies and companies are strongly financially interconnected. The US spends 99 percent of its income, so if it wasnt for europeans saving up money there would be no money in the US to make investments, and if it wasnt for the enormous us consumer spending europeans could not export their goods to the US. Just trying to show that its a global world. I know you are a very proud american and you defend your nation bravely. I am just doing the same thing. Mind you I could write even longer posts about things that could be improved, and I guess you can too.

And to conclude my opinion: The US can have Universal Health Care if its people want to have it.

Hi Squareman,

This is some food for thought about how disproportionate share of US R&D is linked to universal health care.  Part of what other countries with universal health care have in common is their government's ability to negotiate prices of patented drugs (including most HIV drugs) with the drug companies.  This happens in the US in a very fragmented way, such that even though there are some deals made by private pharmacy benefit managers with drug companies in behalf of insurance carriers and hospitals, the price tag for branded meds are still way higher than what it is in countries with universal health care.  This generates the profits which finances much of R&D (along with advertising, etc).  How much of the revenues actually trickle into R&D vs advertising? No one really knows but that's worthy of another thread altogether.  But let's assume for a moment that advertising is not part of the issue (which is an erroneous assumption) and most of the revenues are funnelled back to R&D.

So if you look at worldwide drug revenues per capita, the US leads here heftily, and that's partly because branded meds are sold and paid for more expensively.  Now, if in the imaginary world, there was this US universal health cares system in which an agency negotiated prices for all branded drugs with the drug companies and used its bulk purchasing as leverage, that will in fact reduce drug prices here drastically and will in turn reduce US prescription-drug related revenues.  I would think if multinational drug companies become faced with this shrinkage of revenues from the US market, it would try to recoup it elsewhere in the world, if they were to try to maintain the same revenues, which in turn would keep the R&D going.

I admit that's an overly simplistic view.  But it does provide the backdrop of how R&D is linked to the need to keep revenues up, which in turn is linked to why the pharma lobby is very strong at making sure that the US health care system remains fragmented.  And other countries of the world benefits in that model as well.  This is part of the reason why opening up the Canadian market to all US health care consumers will not be good for Canada's own interests (no offense intended, it's just the economics of the whole drug business with its unintended consequences).

Gerry
(who thinks you were part of this discussion in the old aidsmeds forums, but I might be wrong)

P.S.  This is not to say I am not in favor of universal health care because I am.  But part of the issue in this entire discussion is the soaring costs of branded prescription drugs, which is directly linked to the way R&D is financed.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 07, 2007, 08:04:58 am
h
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 11:44:16 am
Libvet, I'm sorry. Your information is simply incorrect with regards to new procedures and equipment. It's what I do for a living. It's what I've done for a living for a very long time. I watched children die because the government would not allow a physician to use an unproven procedure simply because it used a very simple but ingenious device. I personally built the proto-type and helped obtain funding to test the device and procedure. Until we performed significant studies the government refused us funding.  Can you guess who did fund us?  Private industry.  Can you guess why?  Profit.
  Even then the FDA insisted we do side by side studies.  Some kids got the new procedure, some didn't. A significant number of those that didn't died. Only 1 that got the new procedure died. 
Throw your arguments at me all you like, bottom line is; in a fully government controlled and funded system technological advancement slows. My current project, that offers a huge improvement in breast cancer detection has zero public funding.  Take away the prospect of profit, the project dies. Just as a side note, my company is based in one of those social medicine countries you praise so much, can you guess how much government funding they have from the "home" country?  Zero.  The project continues because the US Market will pay for the research many times over.  Once it's adopted by the US, the rest of the world will then start using it.  Thats how life works regardless of how loudly we scream otherwise.

Yes there are grants. Yes the Government helps fund some programs. The vast majority receive little or no federal/state funding.

Manipulate statistics any way you want. I'm dealing with day to day reality. If you take the profit out of the equation progress will slow.  Please note I didn't say stop. There are certainly procedures, drugs, and devices that come from federally funded research.  My statement is it will slow significantly.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 07, 2007, 12:35:38 pm
Although glacial in its movement toward universal health care I do see the coalescing of the left and the right to come up with health care coverage for all.

This morning AT&T, Wal-Mart, the Service Employees International Union, The Center for American Progress, and a host of other business and non-profit organizations will announce a new campaign to tackle the health care crises.

This UNUSUAL partnership, called " Better Health Care Together, " is motivated around four organizing principles:

1) We believe every person in America must have quality, affordable health insurance coverage;
2) We believe individuals have a responsibility to maintain and protect their health;
3) We believe that businesses, governments and individuals ALL should contribute to managing and financing a new American health care system.

Better Health Care Together plans to recruit business, labor and civic leaders commited to making health care reform a reality; enlist support for the principles from national, state and local elected officials, policy makers, candidates and opinion leaders; and persuade workers and customers that the current health care system needs to be reformed.

Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott said, "By following this campaigns common sense principles, we believe America can have quality, affordable and accessible health care by 2012." SEIU's Andy Stern added, " We need fundamental change, and it is going to take new thinking, leadership, new partnerships, some risk taking, and compromising to make it happen."

What the hell are those commies over at AT&T and Wal-Mart thinking? 

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 07, 2007, 12:45:30 pm
Sounds like a plan to hatch up an idea before the government does.  A plan that will probably mean lower cost (hint: taxes) for them, than if they just simply wait for the government to solve the problem.  How can Wal-Mart try to solve the health care crisis, when a lot (most perpahs) of their own employees aren't provided with health insurance?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 07, 2007, 12:46:32 pm
LOL Dash,

Wow, Walmart will do anything to improve its reputation I guess. ;)

Seriously, this is the first I've heard of any major players attempting something in collaboration with other big businesses.   And I like the 3 primary components.

Do you have a link or can direct me to where you located this information?

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 12:54:19 pm
I can't speak for others but I fully agree in an affordable insurance program that everyone can have access to.

My objections are to a fully funded and managed federal program.  Universal care.....absolutely, New laws that insure this happens....OK  A federally managed system...nope.    I've stated that several times,  others have stated that several times. Why do some insist on calling us names and twisting our words?  I'd guess it's the absence of a legitimate argument based on fact not a wonderful utopia we all wish life could be.
 Fix malpractice suits, fix the approval process for new devices and medications, fix the insurance gouging. Leave the government out of day to day care.

Thats not an ultra right wing stance, Thats a realistic approach to the big picture, not just the "I have expensive bills! I demand the government provide me with free health care!" stance
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 07, 2007, 01:11:58 pm

 Fix malpractice suits, fix the approval process for new devices and medications, fix the insurance gouging. Leave the government out of day to day care.


I completely agree with this statement.  Those outrageous lawsuits only drive up the cost for everyone.   Mistakes are made, but I don't think someone should win the lottery as a settlement.   
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 07, 2007, 01:26:48 pm
Did anyone bother to read (besides AustinWesley) that this is not Wal-Mart's plan to solve the health care crises? Could we at least wait and see what the entire group is proposing before we start bashing it? This is a group made up of business, labor, private and public entities. We bemoan the fact around here that every view is always one-sided...well here is a group comprised of business and labor...conservative Wal-Mart and liberal Center for American Progress at least willing to sit down and work for solutions. If they are fronting we will soon know it. I am willing to listen and give them the benefit of the doubt before proclaiming every idea D.O.A.

One more time...

"We need fundamental change, and it is going to take new thinking, leadership, new partnerships, some risk taking, and compromising to make it happen."


Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 01:54:35 pm
Personally I'm all for this concept. It pushes for change that doesn't turn everything over to the government.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 07, 2007, 03:50:33 pm
Wal-mart's CEO says, "By following this campaigns common sense principles, we believe America can have quality, affordable and accessible health care by 2012."  Sounds like a solution being proposed to me. 

Wal-mart has 1.4 million employees and only provides health insurance coverage for about 40% of them.  Maybe Wal-mart should focus on its own policies rather than trying to solve a nationwide problem.  Apparently at the press conference, Wal-mart's CEO was asked:

1.  Whether the company will increase its healthcare expenditures to cover its own employees.  The CEO didn't respond directly to the question (...that means no folks).

2.  Whether the company plans to stop funding candidates that are against universal coverage.  Again, the CEO refused to answer the question.  (that means no).

So a company committed to doing its part in providing universal coverage in America, has no plans to provide universal coverage to its own work force (hell, we'll settle for at least 50%), and it plans to fund campaigns of politicians who are against universal coverage. 

Yep, you can expect great things from this coalition!
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Dachshund on February 07, 2007, 04:00:30 pm
 If so inclined go to Think Progress.com and see their reasons for participating in this project. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of health care coverage so I will continue to work with the Tennessee Health Care Campaign and try to seek answers to why it can work instead of excuses to why it can't.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 07, 2007, 05:00:27 pm
Libvet, I'm sorry. Your information is simply incorrect with regards to new procedures and equipment. It's what I do for a living. It's what I've done for a living for a very long time. I watched children die because the government would not allow a physician to use an unproven procedure simply because it used a very simple but ingenious device. I personally built the proto-type and helped obtain funding to test the device and procedure. Until we performed significant studies the government refused us funding.  Can you guess who did fund us?  Private industry.  Can you guess why?  Profit.
  Even then the FDA insisted we do side by side studies.  Some kids got the new procedure, some didn't. A significant number of those that didn't died. Only 1 that got the new procedure died. 

I'm sure people have died because an unproven or unapproved treatment was denied by the government.  Part and parcel of the process of getting new treatments to market is going through the process of getting FDA approval.  That's a no-brainer. 

Yet the fact the remains that less than 50 percent of pharmaceutical r&d is industy funded.

It's all good and well to quote anecdotes, and nothing in my post suggested that NO procedures or medications were funded solely by industries, but those are the figures I quoted are factual, your personal experience not withstanding.

Trying to apply anecdotes doesn't really work.  It would be like me saying I've never been able to get public assistance for my medications, therefore government plays no significant role in providing health care assistance.

I certainly never made the case that all new medications are funded by the government.  What I did do was point out that between private foundations, federal, state, and local governments, more than half of all research on medications is funded by an entity other than an industry.

I thought I was very clear in that. 

If I were to apply my own personal observations to everything, I would have to assume ADAP, Medicare, Medicaid, and Ryan White programs don't exist and are a complete sham since I have never been able to get public assistance when I applied for it.  Obviously, a significant number of people are getting their medications through those programs, so they must in fact exist, my own personal experiences notwithstanding.

But you don't have to believe me.  Look it up for yourself how much tax payer money is funnelled into R&D for medications, devices, and procedures.   I'd suggest you start with how much John Hopkins gets spinal and head injury treatment research from the government.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 05:26:45 pm
  I'm sorry,  when did 20 years experience in a field become anecdotal? I do this for a living. You trying to tell me how my industry works just isn't cutting it. Yet you persist in steering things down a path that you like.
Yup Johns Hopkins gets funding. Drug companies get funding after they've reached a certain point in their research. Occasionaly simply because of an idea.
I've helped bring several devices into public use, not once did we get outside funding until it was very clear the device would work. The initial moneys almost always come from the private sector.  The private sector invests money to make money.
The 510K process takes millions of dollars.  The government does not often subsidize this.   Statistics are easily manipulated please feel free to do so.  Lets ask this question. If developing a new device costs 1 million in R & D and 1 million for the 510K then another million to set up production, train people, etc. Where exactly does the 1.5 million left unfunded by these wonderful federal, and private sources come from? This is assuming it will only take 3 million and assuming these agencies will hand over half.

My information is first hand working knowledge of how an industry works, your information is how you chose to interpret  numbers and statistics developed by people trying to get their point or view across. 
Now tell me who's being anecdotal?
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: blondbeauty on February 07, 2007, 06:32:34 pm
Maybe because English is not my mother tongue I did not explain myself accurately enough. Anyway Cliff understood what I meant. USA is the country that invests more in research.
Maybe the USA does not have a Public Health System like the one they have in France, which is one of the best in the world. I posted an article a few months ago of a new med (developed in the USA) that is being offered in France to people that are running out of options and it is only available in clinical trials in the USA.
But most of the meds I am taking supplied free by the Spanish National health System have been developed in the USA. Can you name a medication for HIV developed in Spain? Health care should be Universal. This does not mean you need two types of hospitals: private and public like we have here in Europe. If the government pays for health care in private hospitals to people with no money and insurance that would be good enough.
Sometimes in Spain, public hospitals send their patients to private hospitals when the waiting list is too long and the national health System pays for the operation (or the tests) to the private hospitals that performed them.
About going to Houston to receive cancer treatment, I can only tell you that my father had cancer in phase III and they recommended him to receive paliative care. But another Dr. decided to try something else...and he is still alive.
Houston might be the best place to go, but as Austin says, they can also make mistakes. We have the very recent case of a spanish artist that returned from houston full of infections that they were unable to cure. In Spain she was cured in a few weeks.
Our Health System might not be one of the best, but we have air conditioning in every room, :P not like in France in which firemen had to shower the buildings a few years ago due to the intense heat, and many Europeans come to be operated here because the Spanish social security covers things that other "more developed countries" do not cover: like the artificial lenses that are used in catarats operations.
The Spanish Government will start charging these operations to the countries of origin of these citizens. Only last year the region of Valencia spent 800 million euros in operations of citizens of other european countries.
The Hospital in which I am being treated is, together with "la Fé" of Valencia the hospital wich more transplants performs per year and one of the few that make double transplants (heart-lungs). Spain is the european country in wich more transplants are made per year completely free and covered by the national health system.
Another research made in a Public Spanish Hospital is taking place these days: the use of stem cells obtained from grease (in only two hours instead of days) to regenerate a damaged heart. It has not been made ever before in the world. All with public money in public hospitals. Yes they are crowded and waiting lists for no serious opeartions can be of 3 months...but if you need to be oprated quickly you will, if not in a public hospital, in a private one payed by the state.

Squareman: What I meant is that the private sector does not invest in research here in Spain. This is because they are only willing to do it in things that give great benefit in short time, like building companies or other similar things. In Spain there is a popular phrase that says "let the others invent". If you are young and willing to recieve financial support for research, Spain is dissapointing. If you want to buy a piece of land and build 20 blocks of apartments you will receive all the financial support you want. That is what I meant.
This is about my hospital which in 1986 did the second double transplant (liver-heart) in the world:
http://www.noticias.info/Archivo/2004/200409/20040924/20040924_33998.shtm
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Boo Radley on February 07, 2007, 06:38:39 pm
  I'm sorry,  when did 20 years experience in a field become anecdotal?

Your question seems to answer itself, Grinch.  Experience working in a profession doesn't necessarily make one's views empirical evidence, which is required to validate an argument like this one.  One person's field experience is inherently anecdotal.  1000 people's collected and collated experiences might be closer to evidence or strong arguments pro/con an issue but it's still anecdotal information until certain standards are applied to collecting and compiling the data. 

I'm not saying you don't know what you're stating, I'm simply pointing out that your experience in this (still unnamed) field is only one person's experience.  Would we get the same answers from 100 other people in your profession? 

I have 25 years experience working in libraries but I'm not an expert in the field of librarianship, which encompasses a hell of a lot more than many people think.  It's more than books...

Boo
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jack on February 07, 2007, 07:00:34 pm
Austin,First,I would like to address the private medical system in Houston tx that was attacked a little earlier. It happens to be the Number 1,2,or 3 medical center in the world,depending on who you talk too. You father did the right thing getting a second opinion but he could have probably got it from one of the many cancer center in houston. People from other countries come here for cancer and health issues everyday of the week.

I just cant believe the hatred of our economic system on this MB. I dont know if you all know it but we are in the midst of one the greatest economic booms in history. Real jobs are being created, not Y2k jobs and other late 90s phony jobs. Anyone telling you different is delusional.

Who cares why WMT and INTC want to do it. They want to do it so they can stay competitive with foreign companies who do not share the same costs. Its a great idea,and the politician who joins them will win, but pols will want all the credit and thats cool.

i own both intc and wmt stock and think its a wonderful idea. Its their responsibility to perform for their shareholder. The unions forced US corps into the health care providing business and its good to see they have finally seen the light. The system will Bankrupt all US business.


Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: blondbeauty on February 07, 2007, 07:07:45 pm
One things I forgot to mention: the Public Spanish Health System might be bad and we, as Spanairds always complain about it, as I have done here many times. But a friend of mine who is from Holland with an unpronounceable name, came to live to Madrid with the only purpose of receiving a kidney transplant. He received his transplant 1 and a half years later. In Holland the waiting list was of 4 years. I met him after the transplant and he was still carrying a portable dialisys backpack (provided free, of course) in case the kidney failed to work. Now he is doing great.
We might be one of the last countries in Europe but we are becoming the surgery room of the "developed" Europe. And what is even more unbelieveble: in hospitals built in times of the dictatorship.
In the "Gregorio Marañon Public Hospital" is where stem cells from grease are being used to regenerate a heart for the firt time in the world.
Yo can read it in the news section of this link. It is in Spanish, but if you wish to translate it...
http://www.hggm.es/
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 07:48:24 pm
Your question seems to answer itself, Grinch.  Experience working in a profession doesn't necessarily make one's views empirical evidence, which is required to validate an argument like this one.  One person's field experience is inherently anecdotal.  1000 people's collected and collated experiences might be closer to evidence or strong arguments pro/con an issue but it's still anecdotal information until certain standards are applied to collecting and compiling the data. 

I'm not saying you don't know what you're stating, I'm simply pointing out that your experience in this (still unnamed) field is only one person's experience.  Would we get the same answers from 100 other people in your profession? 

I have 25 years experience working in libraries but I'm not an expert in the field of librarianship, which encompasses a hell of a lot more than many people think.  It's more than books...

Boo

My unnamed field as you put it....which I clearly stated is new product development for a medical equipment manufacturer. Prior to that I was a biomedical engineer at a major research and teaching hospital.
As I also stated I am a voting member on multiple committees that represent all of the medical equipment manufacturers world wide and in the US.
I have been and continue to be one of the researchers that bring new equipment to market and make recommendations to both FDA and congress via the committees I am a member of. You see I have more than personal experience.  I have the knowledge of what other manufacturers face. How much more expertise would you require before admitting I have a thorough understanding of the realities here?

Would you tell a lawyer that has been trial defense for 20 years he knows nothing but anecdotal evidence of the judicial system?
Would you tell a fireman that has been putting out fires for 20 years his knowledge is anecdotal?

  I guess libvet and others that take a different view than I have a much better understanding....after all, they want free health care...they MUST be right.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 07, 2007, 08:56:30 pm
I can't speak for others but I fully agree in an affordable insurance program that everyone can have access to.

My objections are to a fully funded and managed federal program.  Universal care.....absolutely, New laws that insure this happens....OK  A federally managed system...nope.   

Quite honestly, for profit insurance companies are one of the problems in our health care crisis, not the solution.  That is not to say they have could have no role in the solution, but some things have to change and the federal government would have to strictly regulate the health insurance industry in order to make them part of the solution.

As it stands currently, health insurance providers are beholden to profits only....providing you with health care is a secondary goal to them.  They are not going to give up their golden goose without a fight.


As I said in a previous post, things like cherry picking and pre-existing clauses and corralling people into high risk policies that suck will have to be dealt with firmly to make insurance companies part of the solution.

Unless you are willing to go there, the only thing that leaves for us a single payer system managed by the federal government.  When all things are considered, it may go against your philosophy but at least a government run program would be beholden to the people, rather than the whims of CEOs and shareholders and boards of directors demanding a fat profit.

 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Boo Radley on February 07, 2007, 09:26:17 pm
Grinch,

I apologize.  I hadn't read the post in which you stated some of what your response to me iterated.   Otherwise I wouldn't have written mine as it was finally composed.

You have a valid view of the current situation but, still, it is based on your individual experience.  Your view is confined to your field of expertise and you must allow that many other people in the "medical provider" industry have equally valid views on basic healthcare rights.   

I am not making innuendo or implying anything about you, and I've read about 2 devices you worked on which were obviously valuable additions to medical science and practice.  I know nothing of the medical equipment manufacturing industry or its scruples but my general knowledge of commerce is the bottom line is making the highest profit you can.  Like I said, I'm not saying you are a money-grubbing capitalist but I don't know for certain that profit-motive has no influence on your views or those of the industry. 

You make the distinction betweeen "universal health care" and a "single payer" system as well as "free healthcare" but I don't think this discussion is that specific -- it's about affording the basic right to medical care to all citizens of, in our situation, the USA.   By the way, did you state you don't live in the USA or did I dream that?

Quote
Would you tell a lawyer that has been trial defense for 20 years he knows nothing but anecdotal evidence of the judicial system?
Would you tell a fireman that has been putting out fires for 20 years his knowledge is anecdotal?

I might or might not depending on the topic.  Being a trial lawyer for 20 years doesn't mean one is an expert in estates or divorce or bankruptcy or non-profit law or corporate law or any of the many other fields of law practiced by individual lawyers.

Quote
I guess libvet and others that take a different view than I have a much better understanding....after all, they want free health care...they MUST be right.

Grinch, why must you make such simplistic accusations against those who disagree with you?  No one else posts such paranoic asides.   

Boo
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Mike89406 on February 07, 2007, 09:31:20 pm
Well Im in the military and I get Tricare I guess you can say that it is goverment funded but everything is free on active duty but when I retire I will pay a yearly premium when I retire for my spouse and children. I was told that i have to accept Medicare part B to be elgible for Tricare for life
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 07, 2007, 09:51:28 pm
  I guess libvet and others that take a different view than I have a much better understanding....after all, they want free health care...they MUST be right.

ROTFLMAO!  I'd like to you to point out where I suggested I wanted "free health care".   

Universal health care managed by the government in a public private partnership would be funded through tax dollars.  And unlike some people, such as our president, I am not under any misconception that tax dollars grow on money trees.  It's OUR money.  Any need to raise taxes to fund a single payer health care system would be offset by the fact we would no longer be paying for profit insurance companies premiums to manage our health care needs.   And single payer is not socialized health care....it's simply a method of payment and reimbursement for a private sector.   Doctors and hospitals would still private entities but would be reimbursed for the services they deliver through the program by our tax dollars.  Any services not covered by the government (such as that nose job or face lift that Paris Hilton wants) would still need to be out of pocket just like it is today.

I have never suggested free health care.  Even certain people in this thread who are already on public assistance for health care say that they already paid for their health care through their tax dollars when they were able to work.

I'll thank you to not put words in the mouths of what people are suggesting we move toward to get us out of the health care crisis that is deepening every day in the United States.

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 10:15:03 pm
Boo,
My original stance was simple. A wholly government run medical system would cause a significant slowing in advancement of technologies, drugs, and procedures. I've spent the rest of the time defending that position from people calling me simplistic and calling my views ludicrous. Thats not paranoid, thats being sick of being attacked by the vocal minority.

Every time someone takes a view that opposes what a small group on this forum deems correct, that person gets belittled and shouted down.

Not this time.  This is my area of expertise. You don't get to shout me down this time. You don't get to quote whatever source you find to support your position. You don't get to take words out of context.  You don't get to belittle or take the moral high ground.
I clearly stated I'm very much in favor of change that provides health care for everyone. I also said from the standpoint of advancement, a fully government funded or controlled system is a mistake.  Do you have the right to want or back a government controlled system?  Of course you do. You may even have a valid argument. Feel free to make it.  You don't however get to tell me  I don't know what I'm talking about for this little piece of the puzzle.
You don't get to bully me, not this time. 
Not once in this thread did I call someones views ludicrous. Not once did I belittle someones point of view. The second I comment in a manner you personally don't like you make sure to call me out on it. Where were you when people called my thoughts and ideas stupid. 

  I may argue in a manner some don't like but I always respect the fact that people may have an opinion I disagree with. What I refuse to accept is the attitude some take that their way is the only way. In this case those people refuse to admit their opinion could be mistaken. Even when I explain that I have a very thorough understanding of how new products are developed you still refuse to admit I might have a valid reason for my argument.  No instead you toss my thoughts aside as anecdotal. When I get mad that you refuse to see the other side you call me paranoid.
Sorry, not backing down, you don't get to bully me into submission.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 07, 2007, 10:30:23 pm
I honestly can't understand how a health care system in which the only payer is the government could be considered private sector.
The words Single Payer, imply only one payer, in this case the government. If the government pays all the bills it is government run. It means the doctors and everyone else are government employees. It means the building is owned by the government. You could call it anything you like but if the government pays all the bills, its a government facility. Please feel free to explain to me how a single payer system could be anything else. I honestly don't get it.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Boo Radley on February 07, 2007, 10:41:27 pm
Boo,
My original stance was simple. A wholly government run medical system would cause a significant slowing in advancement of technologies, drugs, and procedures. I've spent the rest of the time defending that position from people calling me simplistic and calling my views ludicrous. Thats not paranoid, thats being sick of being attacked by the vocal minority.

Call their views simplistic or ludicrous or whatever adjective you can think of to get your point across civilly.  Neither of those words constitutes an attack on you.   You may not agree with it but that is someone's critical opinion.

Quote
Every time someone takes a view that opposes what a small group on this forum deems correct, that person gets belittled and shouted down.

No one is "shouting you down" by disagreeing with you.  You make no attempt at compromise either, probably because on such topics people have deep seated beliefs that are not easily changed.   There isn't a cabal here which demeans other forum members, it's simply the way the cards stack in this discussion.  

Quote
You don't however get to tell me  I don't know what I'm talking about for this little piece of the puzzle.

Yes I can and do.   Nothing you've written indicates your view has any more validity than mine or anyone else's.  Just because you've worked in an area of the medical equipment field for 20 odd years doesn't make you an expert on universal medical care.  It doesn't, I'm sorry.  That's not an attack or shouting you down, it's just plain fact.  

Quote
You don't get to bully me, not this time. 

I'm not trying to nor have I ever tried to.  

Quote
  I may argue in a manner some don't like but I always respect the fact that people may have an opinion I disagree with.

Then how do you get into so many arguments?  It's all our fault because we belittle you, shout you down, quote you out of context, declare your ideas simplistic, bully you, and on and on.   You call the same shots every time.

I'd still like to know what country you're a citizen in or at least tell me I misread one of your statements I interpreted to mean you are not a resident of the USA.  Our topic is not specific to the USA but many of the posts, including yours, refer to the situation in the USA.

Thanks, and I mean it,

Boo
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: libvet on February 07, 2007, 10:50:48 pm
Grinch, who suggested a wholly government run medical system?

What we suggested was a government managed health care system.  Essentially, government acting as our insurance company instead of for profit insurance companies taking a big bite of health care dollar while leaving tens of millions of people without any health care at all and leaving us all living in fear of the day our company goes out of business or we become unable to keep up with the demands of the new management in the companies we already work for, especially in times of economic downturns, or getting fired for having the bad taste to get an illness that requires extensive therapy in a state that has an "at will employment" law.

Who do you think the government will buy medical services from?   ANSWER: The private sector.

Who do you think the government will be buying pharmaceuticals from? ANSWER: The private sector.

Who do you think the government will be buying durable medical equipment from?  Answer: The private sector.

Who do you think the hospitals and doctors offices will buy durable, portable, and disposable medical equipment and diagnostic tools from?  Answer: The private sector.

Pharmaceutical companies and medical equipment manufacturers are not going to go out of business by having the government act as our insurance company than military equipment manufacturers are going out of business because the government runs acts as the administrator of our defense forces.

The ONLY people that will be cut out of the equation will be the insurance companies that are doing a piss poor job of managing health care in this country.

And the benefits of going to such a system?

A healthier populace.

A private sector free of the burden of trying to be an employer and provider of health care benefits to it's employees and will be better able to compete in a global market against all the countries that DON'T put the burden of providing health insurance on the employers.

Less expenditure per health care dollar on administrative costs and more of that towards actually health care.

Less crowded emergency rooms when people currently without any health care no longer have to use emergency rooms as their primary health care provider.

Less people losing everything they own due to medical bills.


I don't mean to keep hammering home the same points over and over and over again, but EVERYONE seems to acknowledge that our health care system is in crisis....even Wal-Mart seems to have come to the conclusion that they no longer want to be a part of the health insurance-employer-employee symbiosis that is at the heart of the problems in our current system.

But some people are resisting change out of hand because of ideology instead of reason and I for one do not understand the insistence on clinging to a broken model of health care in America.

If you have a better idea on how to deliver health care more equitably and improve the status of health care in this country and cover the rising masses of people that have no health care coverage at all, then I am open to hearing them.

But the status quo can't be maintained indefinitely.   When people who actually work in providing health care are faced with no longer being able to afford health care coverage, something has to change and it has to change soon.

More and more people are coming around to looking at other first world industrialized countries and saying "Hey, how is it that they can manage to provide health care to all citizens, but we can't when we are supposed to be the greatest and richest nation on earth?".

So if you have a better way, by all means, present it.  Your window of opportunity for maintaining the status quo is closing fast and change is already in the wind.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: RapidRod on February 08, 2007, 05:37:35 am
Quote
Your window of opportunity for maintaining the status quo is closing fast and change is already in the wind.
Just like a fart, the air will clear and then nothing again.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Grinch on February 08, 2007, 09:30:27 am
Libvet,

Thats a beautiful scenario. You still have the issue that healthcare becomes wholly government run. You can call it anything you want but the reality is most hospitals would be 100% reliant on government dollars.
When there is only one customer, there is no competition.  When there is no competition the company that is awarded the contract becomes fat, bloated and inefficient.  Have you ever dealt with a DoD contractor?  Not fun!
I absolutely agree that having our employers pay the majority of our healthcare is plain stupid.

  Would you agree to keep the government out of it if someone could choke the life out of the insurance companies and bring down the costs of healthcare?  I agree whole heartedly that medicare/Medicade should be funded in a manner in which those that qualify should get full and quality care. I agree qualification should be reasonable.

 One reason our health care costs are so high is the whole trickle down effect of malpractice and other law suits.
Physicians are not the only people named in these suits.

  Another reason healthcare is so expensive is education. Not just physicians but every tech, nurse and other medical professional walks in the door hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Couldn't we reign in the universities?

There is a shortage of skilled health care workers. Have you any idea how bad the recruitment wars get with regards to employees?  Two hospitals in my area just reached an unofficial and in my mind illegal agreement to fix the wages of x-ray techs at a certain figure.  Techs were jumping back and forth between the two hospitals as they kept out bidding each other by a dollar an hour.  Did you know some techs make as much or more than some of the hospital CEO's? Of course I'll be accused of being anecdotal, but the two hospitals near me pay senior CT techs more than they pay the CEO after OT and on call.
 Thats not a complaint just a little factoid that many folks don't know.

  Wouldn't it be better to enact change to solve these problems, lower everyones costs, keep some competition alive, and promote the system that resulted in the best healthcare available?  Though I also agree that distinction is fading because things have gotten out of hand.

  Wouldn't it be better to reverse some of the absurd laws in place that the insurance companies fall back on?

You want a government controlled system, I want the government to clamp down on the periphery. Change the insurance system, get our education costs under control, and shut down the absurd law suits.

   That topic I would gladly debate in a civilized manner.
In my mind, my way results in more affordable health care while promoting competition and innovation.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: blondbeauty on February 08, 2007, 07:31:47 pm
This is the list of Public Hospitals in the city of Madrid. They all compete in research.
You may click on each one of them to see the latest research in each of them.
http://www.madrid.org/cs/Satellite?pestanna=5&pagename=PortalSalud%2FPage%2FPTSA_listaHospitales&language=es&cid=1162209993137
Mine is Puerta de Hierro.
And news about the HIV vaccine from a Public Hospital:
http://www.madrid.org/cs/Satellite?idConsejeria=1109266187266&idListConsj=1109265444710&c=CM_Actualidad_FA&pagename=ComunidadMadrid%2FEstructura&sm=1109266100996&idOrganismo=1109266228174&pid=1109265444699&language=es&cid=1142335628541
An HIV unit of a Public Hospital:
http://www.madrid.org/cs/Satellite?pageid=1152602704494&pagename=HospitalCarlosIII%2FPage%2FHCAR_listado&language=es&rendermode=preview&cid=1153903749781
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: northernguy on February 09, 2007, 09:15:40 pm
Reading skeebo's post here: http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8793.0

its hard for me to see why some don't think universal health care is a good thing:

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: blondbeauty on February 10, 2007, 06:00:48 am
Of course. Is like saying if eating is should be a right. Answering no is quite cruel, specially for the people that die of starvation.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Cliff on February 10, 2007, 08:15:44 am
I haven't seen anyone say universal health care is not a right.  What I see are debates over how you accomplish it.  Universal health care (or almost universal) is approached differently by countries and that is reflected in this debate.  I hope people don't confuse a debate over a one-payer (government) system for a debate on the goodness of universal health care.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: jyngfilm on February 11, 2007, 09:03:17 pm
is health care a right?...NO
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: AustinWesley on February 12, 2007, 02:46:02 pm
I think healthcare is a right and looks like the majority of politicians seem to be advocating some form of a univeral plan so I'm happy that there seems to be some progress in the right direction.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Jeff64 on November 05, 2007, 09:53:49 pm
I'm curious... why not?


I am curious....why does the earth owe us anything at all?

It is not the world's problem we got sick.

Jeff
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Mike89406 on November 05, 2007, 10:15:39 pm
aupointillimite,

Lets get one thing straight I along with many other americans agree that an overhaul is needed with the medical system. Copying the way Canada or UK etc... does not mean it will work here the same. Part of the problem and reality is goverment bureacratics would get in the way of attaining that goal.

Michael Moore is a money grubbing scrub that only showed one side of the story what he wanted you to hear.

The answer is they need to come up with something better what is going to actually work for our country.

But to answer you're question I think it is a right to those who have worked til they can't work anymore because of health reasons or still do work.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Matty the Damned on November 05, 2007, 10:18:26 pm
Mike,

Benji (aupointillimite) hasn't been here for a while and probably won't read your response. This is thread necromancy by Jeff64.

MtD

Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Mike89406 on November 05, 2007, 10:24:06 pm
Thanks MTd
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: 404error on November 06, 2007, 02:45:33 am
I think healthcare should be a right afforded to citizens of their respective nations.  I am glad I live in Canada.  I have a doctor I don't pay to see (well, other than through the piddly amount collected from me yearly via taxation.)  When I have to start meds, I will either be receiving them at a heavily subsidized discount or free of charge.  I've never paid for lab work, I've seldom paid to have claim forms filled in by my doctor, and I've only occasionally paid for any prescription medication I've required over the years.  A state should be responsible for looking out for the health and welfare of its citizens with the objective of keeping them; safe, healthy, educated and employed/employable. 
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Miss Philicia on November 06, 2007, 10:53:40 am
Quote from: matty.the.damned
This is thread necromancy

qft
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: LordBerners on November 06, 2007, 12:13:27 pm
Is health care a 'right'?  That depends on power:  in america health care is a right - for the rich.  Elsewhere slightly different power relationships apply, for the moment.  It takes power to get desirable things like income, health care, the obedience of others.  See Foucault.
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: newt on November 06, 2007, 02:28:39 pm
1945 - Harry Truman sends a message to Congress asking for legislation establishing a national health insurance plan.

You got 20 year's debate and Medicare. And as a necessary piece of AIDS exceptionalism somewhat late in the day, ADAP.

We got (financed with borrowed US dollars) the NHS. People do not wait for ARVs in the UK. 

Sure, things could be better, cos when it's bad, it's bad, and the waiting rooms are crap, and you might wait an extra 30 mins while an urgent case is seen, but when it matters it can & usually is so damn good, there's no treatment-by-insurance in the emergency room.  Private medicine we have too, some paid for by the NHS, but all the difficult cases they, er, refer to the NHS as a rule.

There was a lot right with Medicare when it was introduced and there still is, as far as it goes, there's a lot right with the NHS and other, different European solutions to universal coverage.  No system is perfect. Especially the NHS. But there's a lot wrong with rich countries saying they can't afford healthcare for all, however you divvy up the payments. 

In the end its a moral question, like do we want democracy? ... not a financial one (perhaps like fighting wars).

- matt
Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: Iggy on November 06, 2007, 03:10:19 pm

Sure, things could be better, cos when it's bad, it's bad, and the waiting rooms are crap, and you might wait an extra 30 mins while an urgent case is seen...

Actually on the above, I don't think there is any longer a big difference between the U.S. system and anywhere in Europe or Canada. 

I've had top notch insurance and private doctors and still had long waits both for general internal medicine visits and hospitalization.  Ironically most medical professionals will tell you that the longer waits are because of the the private healthcare system in the U.S. which forces them to overbook patients due to HMO and insurance paperwork bureaucracy, and payment restrictions..



Title: Re: Is health care a right?
Post by: LordBerners on November 06, 2007, 10:30:03 pm
In order to see through the arguments of the right-wing, I think it can be helpful to understand that the 'public'/'private' dichotomy is a false one.  Their cries of 'government interference' are absurd in light of the fact that their own exhalted position is granted and gauranteed by the State.  When they squeal about 'their' tax dollars, of course what they are really bemoaning is a loss of privilege.

Anyway, the reference to a 'right' is naive, since one's class opponent will never recognize one's 'right' to anything.  Political decision making is about power, and alas, as some have pointed out above, in american society the capitalist class (owners/wealthy/corporations) have an absolute monopoly on power.  Under what circumstances can it be wrested from them?  I fear only very unlikely or fantastic ones.