POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: xyahka on July 14, 2007, 12:37:31 am
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I read lately that some newbies were confused about the different theories about Hiv/Aids, specially that shit coming from denialists.
Well, i just got this website by email and i think it is pretty useful to answer some questions, check it out and share your thoughts
http://aidstruth.org/
cheers,
Juan Carlos
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I'm sorry Juan, but this is the second time I have been a smidgen displeased with your commentary tonight.
The first time was when you told Bettytacy that she should wish away her fears of her mothers' demise, and convince her mother to do the same, until the very last moment.
I thought that this was a very bad idea for both of these women, as mom's death was a fact of life, and no amount of wishing it not true would not make it so. I found your comment shallow, and your advice to this woman in need lacking insight.
By even publishing this denialist poo, I am again taken aback.
Perhaps this has not been a good day for you.
While I understand that you likely intended this post to be a cautionary publication, it has had a reverse ideation in my book.
I think you are a wonderful blogger, and have loved all of your offerings, but I wonder if you are not practised.
I hope that I have not come across too heavy, but I am ultimately interested in the fora as a whole.
If someone wishes to read denialist propaganda, it can easily be found without our pointing it out. We all know it exists, but it is destructive, and has no place here.
Please don't be hurt by my words here, but you may be reminded of these simple rules of conduct here.
I applaud your desire to enlighten others of the pitfalls that befall us.
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Lisa, I think you are mistaken...
aidstruth.org (http://www.aidstruth.org) was created by scientists and advocates to set out the science supporting (1) HIV causes AIDS (2) the benefits of ARVs outweight the risks (3) ARVs do indeed combat HIV infection. In particular it was created as a response to the lemon and garlic sellers in South Africa. The homepage opens:
"This website presents the scientific evidence that HIV is the cause of AIDS and that benefits of antiretroviral drugs (ARVs) outweigh the risks. The website was created by research scientists and community advocates engaged in the worldwide struggle against HIV/AIDS."
- matt
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(Juan) & Newt, I respectfully withdraw my opinion regarding the information supplied by the Website forementioned. I apologize for being too zealous in my post. I read the information with a closed mind, and I should not have done so.
Please forgive my blunder.
Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Isn't it a terrible injustice when an idea, or thought process is not given full appreciation?
Juan C. I am however, still of the opinion that your post regarding Bettytacy's mother was out of line.
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I'm sorry Juan, but this is the second time I have been a smidgen displeased with your commentary tonight.
The first time was when you told Bettytacy that she should wish away her fears of her mothers' demise, and convince her mother to do the same, until the very last moment.
I thought that this was a very bad idea for both of these women, as mom's death was a fact of life, and no amount of wishing it not true would not make it so. I found your comment shallow, and your advice to this woman in need lacking insight.
By even publishing this denialist poo, I am again taken aback.
Perhaps this has not been a good day for you.
While I understand that you likely intended this post to be a cautionary publication, it has had a reverse ideation in my book.
I think you are a wonderful blogger, and have loved all of your offerings, but I wonder if you are not practised.
I hope that I have not come across too heavy, but I am ultimately interested in the fora as a whole.
If someone wishes to read denialist propaganda, it can easily be found without our pointing it out. We all know it exists, but it is destructive, and has no place here.
Please don't be hurt by my words here, but you may be reminded of these simple rules of conduct here.
I applaud your desire to enlighten others of the pitfalls that befall us.
Hi Lisa, don't worry i am not hurt by your comments i do appreciate you are very kind when speaking and that's very nice.
I assumed there would be some missunderstanding with the site as we are used to find lot of shit supporting denialists theories (pity there is no control on internet and everyone can publish anything) but in this case this is one of the sites that support science and its fight against Aids. This site is on the good side of the "force" :).
About the comment to Bettytacy, what i meant to say was that she should keep the faith for her mother will be ok again. Perhaps i am wrong, but if i were in her case i would like to do so. I didn't mean to say her to wish away her fears... cause fears won't go, but i do think that if someone tells you these are the last days and you really expect them to be... they will be and the last moments will be harder. In my case I would prefer to think that things could get better and ask my mother to think same way... and perhaps, things could get better... Yes, this is more based on my spiritual beliefs .... i believe even worst things can change... even though i know it does not happen always.
Perhaps it was not a good advice, if so i am sorry... i am not used to face death yet, i might do it wrong but well... this was just how i felt. I would preferred negation or faith (however anyone prefer to call it) instead of resignation.
What did you mean with "I think you are a wonderful blogger, and have loved all of your offerings, but I wonder if you are not practised." ???
Juan Carlos
just waking up... :o
/edited three times for early morning typo :o /
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It is amazing how Peter Duesberg continues to insist on his homophobic theory of AIDS.. His theory:
1. Drug use causes AIDS.
2. Antiretrovirals cause AIDS.
3. Bad Water.
I don't fall into any of these categories.
CA
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Everyone,
While discussing this subject, please keep in mind what our Terms of Membership and the forum guidelines have to say about posting denialist materials.
And remember, play nice! ;)
Thank you. :)
Ann
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One time at band camp I was denied by a confusealist...I know, I know, I'll be going to my room now. ;D
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I read lately that some newbies were confused about the different theories about HIVAiIDS, specially that shit coming from denialists.
Unfortunately it is not the newbies being confused about denialist information so much as the world at large that is the problem; I tire of people who are not poz telling me how they know I am wrong about meds or tests or treatments since they read so and so article.
It is also the non-poz (at least that we know of) who are deciding on funding for HIV programs (prevention through treatment) that we have to be worried about as far as countering ignorance and lies. Hell, as Ann pointed out in another thread - The U.S. govt has a great record of using the most convient answer that matches their agenda rather than the science and facts of what HIV is and who it affects and how to effectively combat it.
The site you listed is a good one and I have forgotten about it - in fact I used it once in an argument when someone posted an article it refutes in their site....unfortunately the person took ten seconds to "read" the entire site ::) then claimed it didn't refute any of his points....which brings us to the last sad truth - HIV denialists are by nature those who deny the truth regardless of the facts presented.
Of course that doesn't mean that we should stop telling the truth about the virus (as well as denialist) as we all have a part to play in fighting ignorance.
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Very interesting website. I actually didn't realise the extent of absurdity of denialist myths out there. ::)
Melia
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That's an interesting website. I heard about this (denialism) a long time ago. I don't know why that reminded me of this, but I remember Louise Haye's publications about AIDS. I think there were a lot of profiteers early on also.
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I think there were a lot of profiteers early on also.
There still are. Some of them try to market on here from time to time.
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I think a round of a really nasty OI like PCP (occurring pre-HAART) would convince most hardcore denialists. I know that without antiretrovirals, I'd be dead. It would have made a believer out of me.
David
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I think a round of a really nasty OI like PCP (occurring pre-HAART) would convince most hardcore denialists. I know that without antiretrovirals, I'd be dead. It would have made a believer out of me.
David
That doesn't always work and there's plenty of dead denialists to prove the point.
Ann
edited to add: http://aidstruth.org/aids-denialists-who-have-died.php
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Wow. And one of those people died from poppers.
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Lets not forget the innocent victims either. I think some of us remember this story ;
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=1386737&page=1
Ray
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That doesn't always work and there's plenty of dead denialists to prove the point.
Ann
edited to add: http://aidstruth.org/aids-denialists-who-have-died.php
My point was that if I had been a denialist, when HAART (plus antibiotics) saved my life, I would have been convinced. Add ignorance and / or stupidity to the mix, then you get aids-denialists-who-have-died as you listed above.
David
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Lets not forget the innocent victims either. I think some of us remember this story ;
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=1386737&page=1
Ray
Denial doesn't relieve one from their responsibilities to their children. Steps could have been taken when the child was first conceived to help prevent her having AIDS & PCP. The article mentions the child looking healthy with no signs of AIDS. How many of us have been in that same situation? I know I have. I wouldn't have known about my HIV+ status if I hadn't had a call from the Dept. of Health or until I was hospitalized with PCP. That child died from negligence.
David
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Denial doesn't relieve one from their responsibilities to their children. Steps could have been taken when the child was first conceived to help prevent her having AIDS & PCP. The article mentions the child looking healthy with no signs of AIDS. How many of us have been in that same situation? I know I have. I wouldn't have known about my HIV+ status if I hadn't had a call from the Dept. of Health or until I was hospitalized with PCP. That child died from negligence.
David, I'm guessing Ray meant the child was the innocent victim, not the mother.
Melia
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David, I'm guessing Ray meant the child was the innocent victim, not the mother.
Melia
I must not be explaining myself well tonight! ;) The child was the innocent victim. I was referring to one of the quotes in the article stating that the child appeared ok. I was relating it to the fact that I appeared ok, too, but I sure as hell wasn't. I don't think the mother was innocent of anything.
David
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Denial doesn't relieve one from their responsibilities to their children. Steps could have been taken when the child was first conceived to help prevent her having AIDS & PCP. The article mentions the child looking healthy with no signs of AIDS. How many of us have been in that same situation? I know I have. I wouldn't have known about my HIV+ status if I hadn't had a call from the Dept. of Health or until I was hospitalized with PCP. That child died from negligence.
David
Hello David,
I agree with you David. It was negligence. The person I was with back in 1985 was "healthy looking" ( One of the reasons I choose not to wear a condom.)
If it wasn't for the case of the clap, that I also contracted from him, I also probably may not have known my HIV status. Plus the fact that about a month later the individual told me that he was HIV positive. I am just thankful, I never passed this on to Ed.
I looked healthy for many years with this virus. Except for the Shingles in 1989,( which totally wiped me out) No one would ever suspect me of being HIV positive. Only my closest friends and family members knew.
That made a drastic turn in 2002-2003 though... People at work were making bets on how long I was going to have a pulse.
Take care------Ray 8)
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Ann's post about Denialists Who Have Died actually linked me to more denialist info than I ever expected to see through this site, but it was a great thing. I think at least some discussion on the subject is important to have on here. I ended up going on the most fascinating reading journey last night through web boards & posted emails...just amazing the mental gymnastics some will perform to leap around the obvious.
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Yeah, I noticed there were some denialist links on that page - I got the link from the front page of the original link Juan gave us. I hoped that people would understand the context in which the links are given on that website.
It's good to understand the enemy - just as long as you realise that they are the enemy.
I came across the denialists very soon after my diagnosis. As I wasn't looking for a way out, but rather a way forward, I wasn't taken in by their crazy claims. Plus, I did my homework on them - as I do with anything to do with my health. The danger from these people lies mainly with people who are themselves in deep denial about their hiv status. The denialists tell people in this position what they want to hear.
The danger lies not only in people not monitoring and treating (when necessary) their hiv infection, but also in the onward transmission of the virus by people who don't believe it exists and therefore don't use condoms. The damage these people cause can be very far-reaching.
Ann
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Well, also like that linked site states, the fact that the larger HIV community chose to basically ignore the denialist movement seeing it as largely marginal in fact allowed it to fester and grow. I'd have to agree.
While the denialists never affected me personally my situation was also helped by being diagnosed pre-internet. I would think for many currently diagnosed people it's torturous to have such easy access to their disinformation as it easily allows one to go into... uh, denial. I think we've all even seen it on these boards, where some new people state something that, while not directly referencing a denialist web site, it's obvious that they've read some of them.
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I deny the denialist... I only wish hiv was an imagination of everyone on this board but, unfortunately aids is a panedemic and hiv thus far has supporting evidence as the viral cause of this disease...
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I actually went to one of Christine Maggiore's meetings/ gathering, when I was first moved back to Los Angeles. It was in rented room in West Hollywood, and she was giving out copies of her book, she was so strong in her words, and determined to sway opinions. She had her daughter there and son whom she was breastfeeding right there in class, infact I meet one of my good friends at that seminor and she and I were amazed at her breastfeeding and alittle concerned. I felt that night she was putting her childern at harms way, not only by breastfeeding but by dragging them out late at night for her proganda meetings. And she said she wanted to protect her daughter from the stigma by not getting her tested.
I have a child of my own and I took every precausion I could to try to ensure he be negative and not have to live a life like mine. Thank god he is negative because of the meds.
Reading this post today really hashed up all those feelings when I first learned of her daughter's death. All I can say is FUCK HER. She should of never been promoting that crap.
Just a shame.
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Is it just me or do 85% of the denialists live in California?
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oh its just too much pot smoking dont you think?
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... and jaunts to the ashram