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Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 04:13:08 pm

Title: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 04:13:08 pm: I was hanging out with some friends of mine last night... and since we're all sexually liberated young adults, the topic turned to sex.

We'd been drinking, so tongues were loosened, and during the "Unexpected Threesome Discussions" a good friend of mine mentioned that why yes, he'd had one right before Thanksgiving... and yes, he bottomed without a condom.

I pride myself on never losing it over anything... but I got after him... perhaps more than I should have. He told me that I was scaring him, and he didn't want to tell me because he knew I would get after him about it. I told him that if I didn't do it, probably no one else would with the required zeal. I told him to get tested ASAP, and then he starts with the self-deprecating, "Now you think I'm an idiot" thing... I was having none of it and said to him that he wasn't an idiot, but he did do something idiotic. Which we all do from time to time... it's just those stupid unintended consequences...

Would I have gotten after him as much if I wasn't poz? No. And that realization is a little bizarre for me.

Some part of me thinks that because my friends know someone who is HIV+, the knowledge that it happens to people should be much less abstract, and that they should take appropriate steps to protect themselves.

I can't decide if that's really selfish or something else. Le sigh.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: poet on December 31, 2006, 04:26:08 pm: It's always abstract until it happens to us. It can happen to a best friend and although it's a best friend, it's still not happening to us, anymore than someone getting cancer- say a parent or sibling- is often close enough to 'us' to make us change. Does everyone know, in theory, what is safe and what is not? Well, from our threads, we have our disagreements, right? It's even possible to bottom in a threeway and not get infected. To do it again, ditto. Again, ditto. Or do it once and you are now positive. Of why else to can friends of friends who drank and drove and died in accidents still not pause over drinking and driving? Because it hasn't happened to them yet. Win
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 04:29:18 pm: You're completely right... I'm being too logical, aren't I? :P
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: paintergirl on December 31, 2006, 04:35:58 pm: I agree with Win, but think you did the right thing to give your friend a little reality check. We all do dumb things, sure, but sometimes we need someone else to kick us in the *ss.

(I'm speaking from very recent experience that reads EXACTLY like your situation. Made a dumb decision last week, and my friend who is positive gave me a really hard time. I deserved it, and needed to hear it from someone else. We only get so many "get out of jail free" cards... no one knows which is their last. I ended up feeling like I was taking my own health for granted and gambling for no reason. Trust me - my friend's tirade will me in mind the next time I'm tempted to be dumb.)
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Life on December 31, 2006, 04:44:42 pm: I think you did it right and did the most responsible thing for a most irresponsible act... Keep talking to him and explain your care for him...

PS I wish I woulda been your friend a few years back and someone woulda kicked my ass before all this..... Le Pew...
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Amosboy on December 31, 2006, 04:54:51 pm: Benj,

No amount of lecturing is going to make someone use a condom. Granted, you are there, living proof that this shit can happen. You've had your say on the subject with your friend, and now, it is up to him to make sensible decisions. I think you have to be careful with friends and not spew too much advice, though in this case it is certainly warranted. Men are horny creatures and they are going to continue to fuck...with or without the impending threat of STDs.

When I bring my HIV into a sex talk with friends, I always speak from the "first person" about how great it is to fuck with condoms...of how much better it is not worrying about contracting some other STD to complicate my own situation. It can be very liberating using condoms. It's guilt-free fucking and you are protecting yourself as well.

In any event, I think the sex is better when all parties are free from fear and reservation. You might try that approach next time. Don't discourage sex...encourage it...with condoms.

Big hugs and kisses to you,

Brooks
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on December 31, 2006, 06:00:44 pm: Agrees with Amosboy but at least it shows you care. You should see me when my son and his friends come over, I'm like the condom fairy.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: marco23 on December 31, 2006, 06:05:33 pm: True friends are completely honest to each other. Even when they receive a slap of reality, it's only because you love them and true friends will understand that even after the buzz wears off.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Ann on December 31, 2006, 06:10:35 pm: Quote from: Queen Akasha on December 31, 2006, 06:00:44 pm
You should see me when my son and his friends come over, I'm like the condom fairy.

LOL! Me too! When my daughter's mates used our house as their meeting place, I did the same. A nurse at my clinic laughingly said something to me about always taking so many free condoms (said she was jealous) but most of them went to the kids. I'm just glad they never called me the condom fairy - I don't suit little pink dresses. ;D
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Razorbill on December 31, 2006, 06:18:37 pm: it kinda depends on how much "zeal" you put into it. A good point to bring up, but of course your friend knows bottomming w/o a condom is risky, doesn't he? You probably embarassed him in front of others (unless your admonishments were aside) and frightened him with the specter of harm. I think you were well motivated - I would have given any advice quietly and without zeal. Some of that zeal is probably self-directed anger you know. Believe it or not, I think you should call and reset the tone by making a mild apology. Tell him you only care and don't want bad things to happen to him. Maybe you could explain the place you're coming from - maybe not.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 06:33:53 pm: I told him at the time the only reason I was getting after him was because I cared.

Razor, regarding the scepter of harm... if he's not gonna be scared of the possibility of catching HIV through risky behavior, I fail to see what other motivation I can attempt to use to encourage him to protect himself.

I'm not a fan of paternalism, but sometimes people need to be called out on that stuff... I wish someone had done it to me... it might have made a difference.

And it very well might be self-directed anger, but not all anger is bad, no matter where it's directed... and if I can channel it into a useful place, so much the better.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Razorbill on December 31, 2006, 06:37:49 pm: Je ne t'en veux rien, mon ami. I'm just pointing out some of the different aspects of the issue. I know you were being a friend - sometimes tho our friends don't see it that way.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Ann on December 31, 2006, 06:58:31 pm: Quote from: Razorbill on December 31, 2006, 06:18:37 pm
You probably embarassed him in front of others

I'd much prefer to be embarrassed than hiv positive.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: bear60 on December 31, 2006, 07:06:12 pm: I think you know that you did the right thing. It does take the form of an educational moment. Educating your friends is a good thing.
Le bon mot
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Nico on December 31, 2006, 07:12:26 pm: Ann,
You said it all. Wished I had been smarter, but stepping in someone's business once let "loose" for all to hear was a kind and smart move.

Aupo - You care for your friend. Cheers to you!

Roger
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: RapidRod on December 31, 2006, 07:44:50 pm: aupoint, I believe you done the right thing. I wouldn't care if it was in front of others. Maybe they would get the hit too. My friends know if they barebacked, don't tell me or I'll jump down their throat in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 07:50:07 pm: Quote from: RapidRod on December 31, 2006, 07:44:50 pm
My friends know if they barebacked, don't tell me or I'll jump down their throat in a heartbeat.

Exactly... I know we all see its extreme effects in the WWs in the AII forum... but sometimes guilt is good, I think.

Did you do something you shouldn't have? Yes, you did.

Do you feel bad about it? Good.

Would you like to avoid feeling bad about it?

Don't do it. Period.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: RapidRod on December 31, 2006, 08:10:07 pm: Exactly.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Eldon on December 31, 2006, 09:35:27 pm: (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o134/forfun_06/newyears-2007-165x208.jpg)
Yes, I AM Supporting You!

Hey Benj...

This topic is a prime example of what we ALL should take notice of in order to increase our efforts to raise the bar levels of Prevention and Awareness. If I were in your shoes at the time during the same conversation, I would have pulled him over to the side and gave him a quick rundown of what he could possibly expose himself to by having unprotected sex. I then would have backed it up with your experience. You did the right thing. No doubt because you cared and you wanted to HELP him.

Don't You Dare Give Up... Don't You Dare Give In...
BECAUSE It IS ALL Within YOU to WIN!!!
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Strayboy74 on January 01, 2007, 02:41:18 am: Quote from: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 04:13:08 pm
I can't decide if that's really selfish or something else. Le sigh.

It sounds like you need to learn to forgive yourself.

At any rate, the more you chastize others, the more you shut down communication and alienate. Perhaps acquainting your friend with YOUR consequences would have been more appropriate, and less likely to make them feel like they cannot tell you things - which seems to have been a 'just' concern for your friend.

Promulgate universal joy, expiate stigmatic guilt.

Look it up in your funk & wagnall. :)

-joseph
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Cliff on January 01, 2007, 03:07:49 am: It may be worth talking to him about what happened to make sure he was okay with what you said (and how you said it) and to assist in ensuring that he does go get tested. I don't think one tongue lashing will all of sudden change behaviour. Sometimes it takes persistence. Also, I think Razorbill does make some good suggestions. People handle things in various ways. This friend might be okay with the in-your-face approach. But another friend might be turned off by a public tongue-lashing...which may end up being counterproductive.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: qrky on January 01, 2007, 03:15:43 am: Look..fwiw. I knew the risks. I still did it. I'm not stupid. I feel like it now. But do I regret it? I dunno. I knew what I enjoyed doing that...and figured it would end this way. Well, it has. So...I'm not shocked. Not everyone who bottoms without condoms thinks its not gonna happen to them. Maybe you were right to flip on him, maybe not. I wasn't there so I can't say, and I don't know either of you. What can I say except the attraction to risk and death is either way in the distance or right on top of you. Some people can't live any other way. I would say...do it quietly. People react quite differently if they're in front of others.

-doug
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: carousel on January 01, 2007, 08:20:41 am: .
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Christine on January 01, 2007, 12:05:35 pm: I would have done the same thing. I don't want to see my friends in the same situation as I am in. Use a condom, use a condom...that is my little mantra...

Christine
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: thunter34 on January 01, 2007, 12:18:54 pm: I hardly ever confront an issue like this one you describe. Meth is about as common as coffee in the midtown area...and offered around about as casually:

Would you like a line or a bowl?

Nearly everyone I know in Atlanta is positive nowadays.

Gee thanks, Tina!
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Boo Radley on January 01, 2007, 12:50:03 pm: Being poz is like being an ex-smoker -- one almost feels the need to proselytize to those who are not on the same path...

That said, the only person I've ever fussed at about having unprotected sex is my niece. I'll make remarks to someone who tells me she/he has engaged in high risk behavior but I learned long ago most people do what they want to do, even if it's a mistake, and no amount of expressed concern makes an iota of difference. Sad but true.

I will argue until blue in the face with someone who declares a "right" to have bareback sex (strange how coining a new term for unsafe sex makes the stigma disappear) but, luckily, I changed milieus a few years ago and don't have to become entangled very often.

The lesson many (neg and poz) people need to learn is to act as if everyone is HIV+ and act accordingly. Don't even bother to ask someone else's status -- assume it's positive.

No one is infallible and we all make mistakes. It breaks my heart sometimes to see the agony of a newly diagnosed person beating him/herself up but by that time safer behavior lectures are beside the point. It's time to offer support.

Boo
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 01, 2007, 03:04:25 pm: Quote from: Ann on December 31, 2006, 06:10:35 pm
LOL! Me too! When my daughter's mates used our house as their meeting place, I did the same. A nurse at my clinic laughingly said something to me about always taking so many free condoms (said she was jealous) but most of them went to the kids. I'm just glad they never called me the condom fairy - I don't suit little pink dresses. ;D

Funny isn't it. I use to do the speech with the condom exchange but noticed my son would zone out on me..lol...So, I made another speech, short and sweet. When I go to the clinic, I had to put in a special request for XL condoms because the other ones was cutting off circulation... ;D
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Strayboy74 on January 01, 2007, 03:06:10 pm: Quote from: Queen Akasha on January 01, 2007, 03:04:25 pm
condom exchange

You mean, you can trade the old ones in for new ones??

wow! Progressive!
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 01, 2007, 03:10:00 pm: Ewww, that is so NOT what I meant.... ::)
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on January 01, 2007, 03:28:03 pm: Quote from: Strayboy74 on January 01, 2007, 02:41:18 am

Promulgate universal joy, expiate stigmatic guilt.

I refuse to make risky sex seemingly joyous for my friends.

As much as I love the joy of immunosuppressing viruses... I refuse to sugarcoat the facts about HIV to him.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: fearless on January 01, 2007, 04:22:33 pm: hey Aupo,

I don't think you did the wrong thing at all. Your reaction just showed that you care and I wouldn't be too concerned about making him uncomfortable. My reaction to such knowledge varies from a good 'getting at' to a more subtle 'I don't condone that, please look after yourself' approach, but I refuse to just let it pass.

Whether or not the message will get through, who knows. Next time he may just remember you 'getting at him' and make the wise decision, but he also may not. That, you have no control over.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Strayboy74 on January 01, 2007, 04:27:43 pm: Quote from: aupointillimite on January 01, 2007, 03:28:03 pm
I refuse to make risky sex seemingly joyous for my friends.

As much as I love the joy of immunosuppressing viruses... I refuse to sugarcoat the facts about HIV to him.

Don't be daft. That wasn't what my posting meant.

My post was about creating barriers of communication, which is what happens when you chastise others, rather than communicate in a less-abrasive fashion. That way you can get your message through, rather than be shut down for sounding preachy.

-joseph
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on January 01, 2007, 04:54:07 pm: Quote from: Strayboy74 on January 01, 2007, 04:27:43 pm
Don't be daft. That wasn't what my posting meant.

My post was about creating barriers of communication, which is what happens when you chastise others, rather than communicate in a less-abrasive fashion. That way you can get your message through, rather than be shut down for sounding preachy.

-joseph

I am abrasive with my friends though. It's kind of my style.

I will call them on their BS and leave no room for uncertainty there... and I did tell him the only reason I was reacting so strongly is because I do care about him... he acknowledged that.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 02, 2007, 12:51:30 am: Oooooooh look at them baby blues.....*swoons*
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Longislander on January 02, 2007, 01:04:21 am: Quote
Oooooooh look at them baby blues.....*swoons*

yup, count on Queen to drag this into another porn thread!!! ;) ;)

j/k sweety ;D
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 02, 2007, 09:50:28 pm: I'm a sucker for some pretty eyes among other things! :-*
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on January 02, 2007, 10:02:23 pm: Quote from: Queen Akasha on January 02, 2007, 09:50:28 pm
I'm a sucker for some pretty eyes among other things! :-*

So Queen... conceivably, I could come over to your place... flash the baby blues... and maybe get a free meal, right? ;D

I'm a sucker for food among other things! :D
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: David_CA on January 02, 2007, 11:42:23 pm: Quote from: aupointillimite on December 31, 2006, 06:33:53 pm

Razor, regarding the scepter of harm... if he's not gonna be scared of the possibility of catching HIV through risky behavior, I fail to see what other motivation I can attempt to use to encourage him to protect himself.
I'm not a fan of paternalism, but sometimes people need to be called out on that stuff... I wish someone had done it to me... it might have made a difference.

And it very well might be self-directed anger, but not all anger is bad, no matter where it's directed... and if I can channel it into a useful place, so much the better.

You know, I'm kinda agreeing that MOST of us knew the possibility of becoming HIV+ from risky behavior. With few exceptions, how else does one become poz?

I'll use the 'stop smoking' analogy. Go to a friend who's a smoker and give the scary cancer details to them in the manner you did for unsafe sex. See what results you get. As a previous smoker (16 years and haven't slipped once :) ), people really don't want to hear about it from me. What's the saying.... something about there's nobody worse than an ex-smoker to rant about the dangers of smoking. It's something like that.

I know you meant well, and hopefully your friend took it to heart. I don't think 'scaring' him is the right tactic; look at all the posts in "Am I Infected" to see scared folks. Honest, intelligent conversation about HIV would be MUCH more effective, in my opinion. Next time, perhaps you can take the person aside and tell them, calmly, that you're concerned 'cause you don't want what's happened to you to happen to him and that you want to help keep him negative. Otherwise, friend or not, caring or not caring, whether it's 'your style' or not, you might come across as bitching, and that seldom works. There's a good chance that it'll just keep your friends from telling you things in the future.

David
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 03, 2007, 01:46:55 am: Quote from: aupointillimite on January 02, 2007, 10:02:23 pm
So Queen... conceivably, I could come over to your place... flash the baby blues... and maybe get a free meal, right? ;D

I'm a sucker for food among other things! :D

Feed you, get lost in those eyes and no booty, damn! Hmmm, what do you have in trade? ;)
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Longislander on January 03, 2007, 02:43:00 am: Quote
Feed you, get lost in those eyes and no booty, damn! Hmmm, what do you have in trade?

HA HA! I was going to say something like you may never make it out alive Benj, or possibly leave converted, but I didn't want to offend!!

Thanks Queen ;)
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 03, 2007, 03:13:29 am: Quote from: Longislander on January 03, 2007, 02:43:00 am

HA HA! I was going to say something like you may never make it out alive Benj, or possibly leave converted, but I didn't want to offend!!

Thanks Queen ;)

I was thinking along those lines too, Paul. Can someone convert back? But then Benj is young and I don't know if I have the stamina...lol....*pops some Geritol*...I'm going to be 38 in 9 days....
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: flashdance on January 03, 2007, 10:04:03 am: I love my friends....and since I have known that I have been poz since '90....three points...

-1-When the CDC was trying to put more pressure on the POZ individual to stop the spread of HIV...the only thing I heard was a bunch of caring public health officials practically telling me to wear a RUBBER SUIT. It became such an oppressive environment that I NOW DO NOT TELL MY DOCTOR or any public health official anything I do behind closed doors.

-2-If I made a mistake and broke one of my sex rules WHICH my doctor would not be happy to hear...then my doctor would probably fire me and I would have to find a new doctor.

-3-The biggest issue with newly infected people is that there is some HINT of DEPRESSION involved. Most likely covered up under layers of secrecy and circumstances but when you are going to try to talk about safe practices...REMEMBER THAT THE PERSON IS EXPERIENCING SOME SORT OF DEPRESSION. It then becomes a tug of war for the person just being honest with you because he/she is DEPRESSED and not protecting his/her self.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on January 03, 2007, 07:28:54 pm: Quote from: Queen Akasha on January 03, 2007, 01:46:55 am
Feed you, get lost in those eyes and no booty, damn! Hmmm, what do you have in trade? ;)

Another pussy for you.

ZING!
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: aupointillimite on January 03, 2007, 07:31:40 pm: Quote from: Queen Akasha on January 03, 2007, 03:13:29 am
Can someone convert back?

I did.

Oh yes.
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Queen Tokelove on January 03, 2007, 10:04:55 pm: Quote from: aupointillimite on January 03, 2007, 07:28:54 pm
Another pussy for you.

ZING!

There is enough pussy running around here now, I don't need more.... :D
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: Iggy on January 03, 2007, 10:33:40 pm: .
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: rcmft on January 08, 2007, 11:10:24 am: Hey All,
glad to hear that people are showing up for their friends wheter its around unsafe sex, HIV, etc. I've heard of several people sero converting and after decades 25 years into the epidemic and it both shocks, saddens and worries me around our self worth. Here's a saying I work to live by:
"A true friend is somebody who supports your being all that you are and won't settle for your being less than that."
Support can be both friendly and nice, along with being confrontational. Its hard to support someone if they are sick or dying from your lack or worry that they may not 'like you.' Get over it and love your friends, no matter what!
Peace,
rcmft
Title: Re: I love my friends, but...
Post by: SouthSam7 on January 09, 2007, 02:09:31 am: Hey I know what you mean about preaching safe sex to friends now that I'm positive. The difference between you and me is that some of my friends don't officially know I'm positive. Since being diagnosed, however, I am vigilant about "waking up" my friends to the reality of HIV.

I see myself in them being careless, and I don't want them to go through something that is in many cases, preventable. I wouldn't change the way to talk to your friends; they might thank you later.

Love,
Sam