POZ Community Forums
Off Topic Forums => Off Topic Forum => Topic started by: egello on April 18, 2007, 02:48:05 pm
-
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10434961
with his history is some sort of mental sickness, he was still able to purchase a gun? and the seller said "he JUST sold the gun"??? wtf, really.
And, because of this, they talk about further lifting ban on gun control so that everyone can own gun??? wtf, really.
-
I know several people with mental illnesses. You talk with them for an hour and you wouldn't know that they have a mental illness. How would you expect the gun dealer to know? The only one that done anything wrong was the shooter.
-
definitely, but there should have been some sort of checks and balance,,, meaning make the gun law much more tough!
-
You tell me how to make it more toughfer? Law abiding gun owners don't comment the crimes.
-
Right. Because no other countries have tough crime laws and lower homicide rates.
-
Look at it this way. If one of the students that got killed had a gun. We certainly wouldn't have had 30 more students killed. We'd have had one or two and a dead idiot that thought it's OK to start shooting people.
It's easier to get an illegal gun than it is to go to the store and buy one. Making it harder for me to buy a gun legally will not make it harder for someone intent on doing harm to get one. It will succeed only in ensuring I have no way to shoot back and stop the idiot from killing wife, kids, whomever.
No I don't think everyone should walk around carrying weapons, I just think there's no way to legislate idiots. Trying to do so won't solve the problem.
-
In Ohio, you pull a gun on someone you best be sure they aren't packing one too. You break in a house and you might just get your ass shot. Waiting 5 minutes for the cops to come, may just be 5 minutes to late.
-
I personally do not own a gun and don't feel the need to have one in the future. However, I think it is near impossible to legislate against EVIL. A butter knife or hatpin could be lethal weapons in the hands of deranged individuals. It would be advantageous for our lawmakers to address the need for an individual to possess a weapon that fires 20 to 30 rounds successively.
Perhaps the gunmakers should create some kind of countermeasure on civilian owned firearms that would cause the trigger to "lockup" for 30-45 seconds between each round fired. Something like that could have allowed some of the innocents time to have escaped the massacre!
-
Insanity, using insanity to overcome insanity?
-
I own a gun... I got one after our door was kicked in while Liz was in the apartment by herself. If someone breaks into our apartment, they're getting shot.
I'm not a gun nut by any stretch of the imagination, although I think the Second Amendment is pretty explicit in its language. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Of course, I think one must use a degree of common sense... does this include nuclear arms? No. Even those automatic assault weapon thingies that were banned... I can't say as I have much of a problem with those not being allowed... but Americans should be able to own guns with reasonable restrictions. The old adage about the First Amendment not protecting someone who yells fire in a crowded theater holds here too, I think.
But of course, it goes both ways. Drugs are illegal and very easy to get. The sale of alcohol to people under 21 is illegal in the US, and lo and behold, where do those drunk 17 year olds come from? Making gun ownership completely illegal will not get rid of guns... not by any stretch of the imagination....
Personally, I'm comfortable with the gun laws we have in this country, and I'm comfortable with non-crazy people with no criminal record being able to own guns... what I'm not comfortable with is the complete and utter lack of enforcement with the laws that already exist.
The solution to a law being broken because of non-enforcement is not to pass more laws. It's to enforce the current one.
-
I think the Second Amendment is pretty explicit in its language. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
You neglected to mention that clause about militias.
-
You neglected to mention that clause about militias.
I know... but it doesn't say for militia-related purposes only.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I think if they'd wanted to limit gun ownership to private citizens, they would have mentioned something about it... they couldn't have banned gun ownership in a large country in the late 18th century where most people owned them anyway... and furthermore, more than 200 years of constitutional tradition has allowed private citizens to own guns... I see no reason to argue with it.
-
Look 'merica ain't changin the gun laws no matter what happens...no measly little massacre is going to change that. Next week it's back to all Sanjaya all the time, unless the next wacko can top this. The boy did raise the standards on carnage so it ain't going to be easy. It's what we are and there ain't no changing it.
-
Amendment 2 - Right to Bear Arms. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
-
I know... but it doesn't say for militia-related purposes only.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I think if they'd wanted to limit gun ownership to private citizens, they would have mentioned something about it... they couldn't have banned gun ownership in a large country in the late 18th century where most people owned them anyway... and furthermore, more than 200 years of constitutional tradition has allowed private citizens to own guns... I see no reason to argue with it.
It also allowed slavery and denied women the right to vote.
-
I know... but it doesn't say for militia-related purposes only.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I think if they'd wanted to limit gun ownership to private citizens, they would have mentioned something about it... they couldn't have banned gun ownership in a large country in the late 18th century where most people owned them anyway... and furthermore, more than 200 years of constitutional tradition has allowed private citizens to own guns... I see no reason to argue with it.
You stated that it was "explicit." I'm only arguing that if they'd wanted it as explicit as you claim they would not have inserted that clause at all. Therefore it is not explicit. Certainly it can be read other ways.
Of course, the definition of "arms" is quite different now too, so this is a rather mundane academic exercise you're engaging in.
-
true, but it could change,, look what happened to Austrailia with with their Tasmania shooting.
-
Personally, I think we should fight over a different amendment.
I'll give a dollar to someone who runs down the street screaming, "You're infringing my Third Amendment rights! Call the ACLU!"
And another dollar to anyone who can tell me what the Third Amendment says without looking it up.
-
You stated that it was "explicit." I'm only arguing that if they'd wanted it as explicit as you claim they would not have inserted that clause at all. Therefore it is not explicit. Certainly it can be read other ways.
Of course, the definition of "arms" is quite different now too, so this is a rather mundane academic exercise you're engaging in.
I just think that the Amendment is pretty explicit in saying that Americans can own guns.
The potential qualifications in the language of the amendment solely regarding the militia... remember this is also a time when private militias were common... is open to a lot of interpretation. But I don't think "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is saying anything other than it is.
And yes, I fully agree with you that the definition of arms needs to be debated. I addressed that issue. Thomas Jefferson did not know much of Uranium-238, methinks.
You can't hug your children with nuclear arms.
-
can u imagine everyone in LA or NYC owning guns??? i know tons of people there who gets road rage and they are totally sane people, instead of middle fingers and cursing, they would all be shooting at each other..
-
can u imagine everyone in LA or NYC owning guns??? i know tons of people there who gets road rage and they are totally sane people, instead of middle fingers and cursing, they would all be shooting at each other..
I heard a half-ironic, tongue-in-cheek explanation that the reason that Americans are so polite to each other on the road (and we are, comparatively...) is that we don't know who's armed.
-
remember this is also a time when private militias were common...
Which is EXACTLY why you should not view it as being so explicit.
Why am I suddenly getting Ronald Reagan thread-style argument flashbacks on this?
-
This ain't got nothing to do with nothing...but I have a good friend who is a black woman and when we are out and about and someone gets on our nerves I whisper in her ear, "kill whitey" and we just laugh and laugh and laugh...
-
Which is EXACTLY why you should not view it as being so explicit.
Why am I suddenly getting Ronald Reagan thread-style argument flashbacks on this?
Damn.
I did recognize the logical flaw that made for my original argument when posting that but was hoping it was deeply imbedded and you wouldn't catch it.
Well played, good sir.
-
This ain't got nothing to do with nothing...but I have a good friend who is a black woman and when we are out and about and someone gets on our nerves I whisper in her ear, "kill whitey" and we just laugh and laugh and laugh...
What was that you were saying about thread hijacking yesterday, sweetie?
-
What was that you were saying about thread hijacking yesterday, sweetie?
I was saying you should move to Florida. ;)....and I did mention killing.
-
***BREAKING NEWS*** the man had been declared by a Virginia court order to be an "imminent danger to others" in 2005. Thank goodness our gun restrictions are so effective.
-
I'm staying out of this (if you're light-headed try to sit and rest your head between your knees) but will only make my standard remark about the 2nd amendment:
With a slight shifting of letters the amendment could be changed from:
"the right to bear arms" to "the right to arm bears," and I for one would be much more comfortable in a country where the only guns were owned by bears.
Gee. how many times has everyone seen that tired old chestnut?
-
You guys are a trip. You know how to get a person to smile. :D
-
Sorry my bad...when guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have guns.
-
I guess my hairy chest qualifies me to carry my gun. Because I'm a bear. ;)
-
***BREAKING NEWS*** the man had been declared by a Virginia court order to be an "imminent danger to others" in 2005. Thank goodness our gun restrictions are so effective.
How did he get one? A gun show?
-
Good ole HIPAA law.
-
How did he get one? A gun show?
Gun shop. He obviously should not have passed a background check having been declared an imminent danger two years ago.
-
Gun shop. He obviously should not have passed a background check having been declared an imminent danger two years ago.
Definitely.
Is there any talk of going after whoever sold him the damn things?
-
I heard a half-ironic, tongue-in-cheek explanation that the reason that Americans are so polite to each other on the road (and we are, comparatively...) is that we don't know who's armed.
its true,, thats why i never curse or give a middle finger,,, but so what???? i rather have someone scream and curse me than blow my head off
-
How did he get one? A gun show?
he just went to that store and bought it wiht three identificaiton and probalby some shabby background chekc
-
Definitely.
Is there any talk of going after whoever sold him the damn things?
NO,, thanks to our gun craze manicacs, the law doesn't allow going after the gun seller no matter what!
-
the second amendment was written when American did not have the strict security system that it has now or should have now. its a remnant of our racist and colonial history when people were afraid of the wild west and slave revolt, that should be gotten rid of now. Why the f. do you guys all think America has the highest or the most percentage (70 percenta) of all gun killing crime rate in the world? do you think Japan or Korea that has extremely strict gun law have this kind of civilian shooting??? Hell no!, you actually trust market economy and greed for money culture like our modern day hyper capitalistic culture to allow people to own and sell guns? why is it more strict for people to get antidepressant than getting a gun? freedom to n for what?
do you guy actually want people to be carrying around handgun in schools, hospitals, and churches just in case something like this might occur?
gosh,,, insane....
-
If they did you would never know it. "State owned media."
-
vs. corporate owned media hmmmm :-\
-
Definitely.
Is there any talk of going after whoever sold him the damn things?
Why would we go after who sold it? The gun shop owner (evidently) DID the background check and nothing showed up. Someone fucked up in whatever agency should have taken that 2005 court information and funneled into whatever database they tap into in a gun shop.
-
Why would we go after who sold it? The gun shop owner (evidently) DID the background check and nothing showed up. Someone fucked up in whatever agency should have taken that 2005 court information and funneled into whatever database they tap into in a gun shop.
I didn't think of that.
Somebody did screw up somewhere along the line, and they better investigate where it happened.
-
If they did you would never know it. "State owned media."
Odd. Japan and South Korea rank higher in an index of press freedom than the United States.
source (http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=639)
-
I didn't think of that.
Somebody did screw up somewhere along the line, and they better investigate where it happened.
What do you expect in a redneck state?
-
What do you expect in a redneck state?
Nothing less.
-
I believe its time we started taking personal responsibility for what we do....
and stop looking for someone else to blame.
Most guns used in criminal activity are either stolen or bought on the black market.
Now how can gun control do anything to stop these statistics?
Recently I bought a hand gun...there's some kind of crime spree going on in West Mobile
and it was an ordeal to get it. From my point of view gun control works but there are those
times when the system fails and when that happens it is a terribly tragedy.
I do offer my most sincere sympathies to the families and friends of those who lost their lives.
-
I believe its time we started taking personal responsibility for what we do....
and stop looking for someone else to blame.
Most guns used in criminal activity are either stolen or bought on the black market.
Now how can gun control do anything to stop these statistics?
Seems to work in other countries.
-
What about our neighbors to the north?
They have guns in Canada. Lots of them. 22% of Canadians own a gun.
But their level of gun violence is much lower than ours, even taking population difference into consideration.
They do have greater controls on ammunition sales and have registration laws... but aren't shooting each other all the time... but even before the registry was put in place, Canada's low crime rate was the stuff of which dreams were made.
-
The guy sent a mini-series to NBC... oh yeah.. now he's a tv star...
Milker.
-
What about our neighbors to the north?
They have guns in Canada. Lots of them. 22% of Canadians own a gun.
But their level of gun violence is much lower than ours, even taking population difference into consideration.
They do have greater controls on ammunition sales and have registration laws... but aren't shooting each other all the time... but even before the registry was put in place, Canada's low crime rate was the stuff of which dreams were made.
CRIME: Although criminal activity in Canada is more common in urban areas, overall crime levels are comparable to the United States and violent crimes such as murder, armed robbery, and rape can occur throughout the country. Visitors to large cities should be aware that parked cars are regularly targeted for opportunistic smash-and-grab thefts, and they are cautioned to avoid leaving any possessions unattended in a vehicle, even in the trunk. Due to the high incidence of such crimes, motorists in Montreal and some other jurisdictions can be fined for leaving their car doors unlocked or for leaving valuables in view. Auto theft in Montreal, including theft of motor homes and recreational vehicles, may occur in patrolled and overtly secure parking lots and decks. While Canadian gun control laws are much more strict than those of the U.S., certain large urban areas have seen an upsurge in gun-related violence.
from http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_KwHF9VgGpgJ:travel.state.gov/travel/canada.html+crime+level+in+canada+gun+control&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us&client=firefox-a
-
What about our neighbors to the north?
They have guns in Canada. Lots of them. 22% of Canadians own a gun.
But their level of gun violence is much lower than ours, even taking population difference into consideration.
They do have greater controls on ammunition sales and have registration laws... but aren't shooting each other all the time... but even before the registry was put in place, Canada's low crime rate was the stuff of which dreams were made.
There are a lot of variables I'm sure. Are they easy to conceal semi-automatics with multiple rounds of ammo? I'm sorry, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for these types of guns to be allowed for purchase. None.
I can't even believe that this argument exists.
-
There are a lot of variables I'm sure. Are they easy to conceal semi-automatics with multiple rounds of ammo? I'm sorry, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for these types of guns to be allowed for purchase. None.
I can't even believe that this argument exists.
I'm definitely not argung that point with you... why anyone needs to conceal a semi-automatic is beyond me, and I think they should be illegal.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how controlling you want gun control to be.
-
for me, its complete ban, and even make it EXTREMELY difficult for hunters to get them and enforce strict law against gun owning criminals. however, this day will never come because guess what,,, America makes killing out of selling guns
-
As far as relaxing gun control goes, some people think more people with guns would discourage stuff like this, they're wrong, the shooter was already suicidal, so why would he be afraid that someone there may be armed?
In reality, there would just be even MORE trigger happy idiots running around taking pot shots.
-
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how controlling you want gun control to be.
How can you misunderstand something I have not even stated?
-
How can you misunderstand something I have not even stated?
My head hurts.
Edited to add: I'm psychic. Yes... psychic.
-
And do you (everyone) think that showing those videos on TV is not criminal? How many teens will actually relate to what he's saying ??? "you make me feel like shit, you're gonna pay for it, i'm nothing for society etc.." Unfortunately it's too late. Since when authorities disclose suicidal notes too? Do those broadcasters have ANY idea of what they could start now ??? ???
Milker.
-
Guns should be used for saving lives, not taking them :'(
That said, it's on my to-do list to get a license and buy a handgun.
Everybody in Texas thinks I'm queer, since I don't have a gun rack on the back window of my vehicle.
I'll probably pack it in a crafting box, maybe one with silk greenery scraps, and forget about it. Statisically, I won't need it.
-
And do you (everyone) think that showing those videos on TV is not criminal? How many teens will actually relate to what he's saying ??? "you make me feel like shit, you're gonna pay for it, i'm nothing for society etc.." Unfortunately it's too late. Since when authorities disclose suicidal notes too? Do those broadcasters have ANY idea of what they could start now ??? ???
Milker.
Well, I don't think it sends a particularly good message... one that states, "if you shoot a whole bunch of people and go out in a blaze of glory, you'll be famous." Yes.
Although, that argument was made after Columbine, and it didn't seem to provoke a rash of copycat shootings... but that might have been because of the increased attention paid to little teenage time bombs at the time. People who are insane are gonna do shit like this regardless of how much attention is given to a person who commits these acts.
But I still don't like the inherent message or what it says about our culture when people like this are showered with the level of attention he's been getting.
Personally, I believe that obsessive interest in the pathological is in and of itself pathological... but what do I know?
-
Guns should be used for saving lives, not taking them :'(
The only real purpose of a gun is to kill other people or animals.
The logical way to save lives with guns is to quit making them and destroy every gun in existence.
-
An FBI profiler on NBC just said that. That the networks should have given the facts, not show the pictures with the guns or the videos, as it energizes potential killers. Apparently there is a flaw in the background check.. if he had so many police records and had a state report, then how the f*** did he pass the background checks!
Milker.
-
An FBI profiler on NBC just said that. That the networks should have given the facts, not show the pictures with the guns or the videos, as it energizes potential killers. Apparently there is a flaw in the background check.. if he had so many police records and had a state report, then how the f*** did he pass the background checks!
Milker.
If he bought that gun in the area where Virginia Tech is... well... there are many, many unflattering jokes and statements regarding the general intellectual prowess of most residents of that part of the state.
-
If he bought that gun in the area where Virginia Tech is... well... there are many, many unflattering jokes and statements regarding the general intellectual prowess of most residents of that part of the state.
I've been to that area of Virginia, I can vouch for that, definitely not the sharpest tools in the shed, and watch your speedometer!!!!!!! Cause Virginia is like the Speeding Ticket Avengers, esp if you have out of state tags.
-
If he bought that gun in the area where Virginia Tech is... well... there are many, many unflattering jokes and statements regarding the general intellectual prowess of most residents of that part of the state.
<hijack><sarcasm>I know I lived in NOVA state where the intelligent people live.</sarcasm></hijack>
Well I hope it's just an "incident" as they say and that schools and enforcement will work better together.
Milker.
-
Well I hope it's just an "incident" as they say and that schools and enforcement will work better together.
Dare to dream.
-
The only real purpose of a gun is to kill other people or animals.
The logical way to save lives with guns is to quit making them and destroy every gun in existence.
I should amend my statement to say that I'm referring to handguns for personal possession. I'm not including rifles and assault weopons that have different roles (ideally) on this planet.
-
Americans and their gun-love. I will never understand it.
We were aghast at the watercooler over a phrase in the newspaper reports: "many of the students had guns, but were required to check them in with campus security". WTF, why would many students have guns?
-
Americans and their gun-love. I will never understand it.
I'm a resident alien, and I have been living in the US of A since 1998. After all those years living in the US of A I've had to explain to my friends back in Europe what it is about gun ownership in the US. I came with a European mind not understanding at all, then during my life in the US learned about the history of gun ownership, talked to many people about it (mostly in Texas!), and started to understand the culture behind it.
The constitution amendment will be discussed for ever by pros and cons about the right to bear arms. The result is that we have country where 99.99% of the people who own guns will never use them unless they are threaten and the rest will be allowed to get guns to commit "legal" crimes like we've seen at VT. Other crimes, which are 90% of the crimes, have been done using "unlawful" guns.
I'm not a gun owner, but my mother got a gun because she felt threaten. This was in France, she was allowed to get one, very lawfully, to protect herself. This gun would definitely kill people. So stop saying that the US is the only country that allows people to get guns that can kill people.
Why am I not a gun owner? Because I would be unable to take life. I'd rather get killed than kill someone. But this is just me.
Milker.
-
Look at it this way. If one of the students that got killed had a gun. We certainly wouldn't have had 30 more students killed. We'd have had one or two and a dead idiot that thought it's OK to start shooting people.
This line of thinking I just cannot understand. Allowing more people to have guns would be better. If this person had never been able to purchase a gun then we wouldn't have had the problem. Now of course some will say that he could get it off the black market, well let's attack the black market problem and get them off the street. One has to jump through more hoops to get a bulding permit or business license, then to purchase a gun. Makes no sense to me.
Woods
-
I'm not a gun owner, but my mother got a gun because she felt threaten. This was in France, she was allowed to get one, very lawfully, to protect herself. This gun would definitely kill people. So stop saying that the US is the only country that allows people to get guns that can kill people.
I somehow doubt France allows the purchase of semi-automatic weapons. It's quite notable that in the 2005 riots there only one gun incident occurred.
Could you go into more details by comparing and contrasting the gun policies between France and the US?
Anyway, I'm sure northernguy is aware that one can obtain a gun in Canada, it's simply more restrictive. Instead you chose to imply he was saying something I'm quite sure he wasn't saying.
-
Americans and their gun-love. I will never understand it.
We were aghast at the watercooler over a phrase in the newspaper reports: "many of the students had guns, but were required to check them in with campus security". WTF, why would many students have guns?
I don't love my gun. In fact, I hate having to have it... but once our door was kicked in, and I realized that my roommate and I were defenseless against someone coming in and chopping us up... I got one.
This was also on the heels of a highly publicized murder of an entire family (including two girls of seven and four) in Richmond whose throats were slit in the basement of their house. We decided that we'd be damned if we went down without a fight.
-
I don't love my gun. In fact, I hate having to have it... but once our door was kicked in, and I realized that my roommate and I were defenseless against someone coming in and chopping us up... I got one.
This was also on the heels of a highly publicized murder of an entire family (including two girls of seven and four) in Richmond whose throats were slit in the basement of their house. We decided that we'd be damned if we went down without a fight.
Yet if the US had more gun restrictions (and had this 50 years ago) the fear you feel about someone coming in with a gun would be considerably less, and most likely you'd not have bought a gun.
Funny how that works.
-
I somehow doubt France allows the purchase of semi-automatic weapons. It's quite notable that in the 2005 riots there only one gun incident occurred.
Could you go into more details by comparing and contrasting the gun policies between France and the US?
Anyway, I'm sure northernguy is aware that one can obtain a gun in Canada, it's simply more restrictive. Instead you chose to imply he was saying something I'm quite sure he wasn't saying.
I don't know what she had to go through to get the gun. I will research. The gun was a very small gun but still able to kill people. It was definitely not a semi-automatic weapon. I will do research and come back to you. But she got the gun. I saw it, touched it, and got scared about it.
Milker.
-
Yet if the US had more gun restrictions (and had this 50 years ago) the fear you feel about someone coming in with a gun would be considerably less, and most likely you'd not have bought a gun.
Funny how that works.
You're right.
But with the way things are regarding the US and gun control... I feel better arming myself than not to make a statement. It may seem selfish and cynical, but I hope it makes sense.
I got the gun out of a reaction to a threat which came very close to becoming a reality... not a perceived one.
-
You're right.
But with the way things are regarding the US and gun control... I feel better arming myself than not to make a statement. It may seem selfish and cynical, but I hope it makes sense.
It's neither selfish nor cynical. But it's not an effective argument about gun policy on an internet message board, that's all I'm saying.
-
It's neither selfish nor cynical. But it's not an effective argument about gun policy on an internet message board, that's all I'm saying.
Nor do I expect it to be... but I have a rather dim view of human nature... and I know the history of America... and when it comes to prohibiting things... well, we don't take too kindly to that.
I suppose my inherent discomfort with the idea of complete and total gun control in the US is because I don't expect it to work too well. So, I figure that it's best to allow law-abiding citizens to own handguns to protect themselves... for the simple reason that I don't trust the the American government to successfully implement a policy of total gun prohibition.
-
Seems to work in other countries.
Gun Control is a fantasy.....Philly
With all the weapons currently available on the black market today
gun control is nothing more than a myth. No matter where you live
or what country... However I will admit we have more than our share
of violence and ninety nine percent of the time its absolutely senseless.
-
Well, you certainly have me convinced with that stellar argument based on zero data.
-
... So stop saying that the US is the only country that allows people to get guns that can kill people. Milker.
I didn't say that. What I was pointing out was that the thought of owning a handgun is alien to most of the population here. A hunting rifle is certainly more common in the rural areas of Canada, but saying you owned a hnadgun would get you a strange look from most Canadians.
-
the thought of owning a handgun is alien to most of the population here. A hunting rifle is certainly more common in the rural areas of Canada, but saying you owned a hnadgun would get you a strange look from most Canadians.
Agreed. Being from Europe it took me some time to understand the American's obsession with the second amendment. I don't think you can understand unless you actually live there for some time.
Milker.
-
Just for the record I was offering my opinion....not a stellar argument.
Regardless of where you live (in one way or another) violence affects us all.
It's the human condition...seeing how we're the only species that kills for
pleasure.
Handguns aren't the problem....It's the people who use them to take life.
Let's face it, anything can be used as a weapon... I wonder how many
people were killed with a knife, an automobile or for that matter a man's
bare hands? Regardless of how a person kills another...its still a tragedy
-
weak rationalizations man... really weak
-
The only way to have prevented the sick bastard last week would have been if students or teachers had been armed. That is a fact many will never be able to accept. This sicko would have found a way to get some type of weapon to accomplish his evil if we had stricter guns laws or if guns were totally illegal. The fight to ban guns is just as stupid as the war on drugs.
If I hear about this evil mutherfucker being bullied one more time I am gonna puke. Who wasnt bullied? He is dead and the world is a better place.
I am also sick of the national blame game that is in progress, much the same as after 911. Why cant people accept that there are evil people in the world and they are to blame.
I do not own a gun but most people here in Houston do and its a good thing.
-
Oh we know there are evil people in this world...believe me, we are well aware of the evil. Yep, we understand evil.
-
The only way to have prevented the sick bastard last week would have been if students or teachers had been armed.
No, actually, another way seems blatantly obvious to me. You said it yourself, Jack; SICK. He was SICK. Sick as in mentally ill. He needed help. He didn't get the help he needed - or at least he didn't get the proper follow-up to the meager help he DID get. He fell thought the mental health care cracks and over thirty people have been murdered as a result.
Is arming society really the answer? Kill all the mentally ill people? Where do you draw the line... kill everyone with hiv while you're at it?
For people such as we who are faced daily with the stigma of hiv, I'm surprised there isn't more compassion for people who face the stigma of mental illness. It boggles my mind.
Ann
-
Ann, unfortunately HIV infection does not impart greater wisdom or a more expansive world view. But I do share your pain.
-
Real compassionate bunch here indeed. The man had mental illness and even when discovered, nobody got him the help that he needed. Is that solely the fault of our society? No, but we share most of the burden. Having lived with mental illness I cannot convey how absolutely deluded you can become and for some, even the most heinous of crimes can appeal to them, to end their suffering, because they do not know how or where to ask for the help that they need.
Yes we need gun control laws because you only need look to Canada to see the effects of a society that is not armed. You can argue the Second Amendment all you want, but this country needs to get a grip and remove the millions of guns that have infected this country. Guns allow people to kill other people and other than hunting and sport, they serve absolutely no purpose amongst the general population. One way to read the Second Amendment is that when it was drafted, there were no police, national guard, etc. and to me it reads that we can empower people to use guns for civil order, but only as part of a professional security operation. To think that the entire US military would turn against the citizens, on behalf of our government, thereby necessitating average citizens to need to defend itself, is absolutely ludicrous.
We also need to put pressure on our mental health system to insure that people like Cho do not fall through the cracks. Who knows what an intervention might have prevented, however one fact remains and that is Cho murdered all those innocents and he, and he alone deserves the blame.
-
Real compassionate bunch here indeed. The man had mental illness and even when discovered, nobody got him the help that he needs. Is that solely the fault of our society, no, but we share most of the burden. Having lived with mental illness I cannot convey how absolutely deluded you can become and for some, even the most heinous of crimes can appeal to them, to end their suffering, because they do not know how or where to ask for the help that they need.
Yes we need gun control laws because you only need look to Canada to see the effects of a society that is not armed. You can argue the Second Amendment all you want, but this country needs to get a grip and remove the millions of guns that have infected our country.
We also need to put pressure on our mental health system to insure that people like Cho do not fall through the cracks. Who knows what an intervention might have prevented, however one fact remains and that is Cho murdered all those innocents and he, and he alone deserves the blame.
The mental health care system is just an industry looking to make a profit, they don't care who gets hurt or why.
Now if this guy had a lot of money to pay them, and the drug companies, or real good insurance, then he probably wouldn't have "slipped through the cracks", like all parts of our health care system, they just want to make a quick buck, and they'd rather things like this happen than to give someone help for free.
-
im sure there will be a big reform anyhow pretty soon because the health care system, university, everyone is going to get sued.....
-
im sure there will be a big reform anyhow pretty soon because the health care system, university, everyone is going to get sued.....
Yeah, and they have tons of cash, tons of lawyers, and a shit ton of corporate lobbyists to drown out our voices with, as usual.
But I wish them lots o' luck with that.
-
Prince, I will never accept that we cannot affect change and for you to just blow off this issue, by blaming a failing health care system, just diverts the blame. If we want a reasonable society then we need to provide tools and services for those people who have special challenges. Mental illness is no different from a physical ailment and actually is one as well, as it interfers with certain chemicals in the brain.
My issue remains that everyone is so center on how he got a gun or whatever and they are totally missing the simple fact that if he had gotten the help he needed, this may not have happened. What we should be indignant about is why was no one responsible for following up on his therapy and if there is no way to do that, because he broke no law, they maybe we need to revisit what we believe are reasonaable limits on those who suffer from SEVERE AND UNTREATED mental illness. I would rather society be proactive in treating mental illness and sometimes that involves going against the person wishes, but ultimately it is what is best for the person.
Try and remember that for most of us, when in the middle of our mental challenges, reality flys out the window and we are incapable of making the choices that are in our best interest. We really need to work at worrying about people.
-
and i think the way things work here in the US correct me if im wrong......
Is the only thing that prohibits you from purchasing a gun is if youve been convicted of a felony??.....
Most mentally ill patients are usually more of a danger to themselves than a danger to others (of course there are the few exceptions and thats when this stuff happens) so barring mentally ill patients from owning a gun is going to be difficult....considering most people have suffered some emotional health problem in their lifetime
-
Prince, I will never accept that we cannot affect change and for you to just blow off this issue, by blaming a failing health care system, just diverts the blame. If we want a reasonable society then we need to provide tools and services for those people who have special challenges. Mental illness is no different from a physical ailment and actually is one as well, as it interfers with certain chemicals in the brain.
My issue remains that everyone is so center on how he got a gun or whatever and they are totally missing the simple fact that if he had gotten the help he needed, this may not have happened. What we should be indignant about is why was no one responsible for following up on his therapy and if there is no way to do that, because he broke no law, they maybe we need to revisit what we believe are reasonaable limits on those who suffer from SEVERE AND UNTREATED mental illness. I would rather society be proactive in treating mental illness and sometimes that involves going against the person wishes, but ultimately it is what is best for the person.
Try and remember that for most of us, when in the middle of our mental challenges, reality flys out the window and we are incapable of making the choices that are in our best interest. We really need to work at worrying about people.
A psychiatrist can order detainment against the patient's wishes, and have the police take them into custody, but like I said, that rarely happens cause the psychiatrist is there for a paycheck and doesn't give a rat's ass about the actual mental state of the patient.
One of the first things they ask you about, before ANY treatment is provided is HOW YOU WILL BE PAYING, and you could say that you're suicidal or that you're planning on killing someone, and unless they think they're getting paid, they won't treat you.
-
That is not true!....if you are suicidal or a threat to others you are LEGALLY bound to detain the patient....
That is why nobody ever tells the shrink they are suicidal even if they are lol.....im not saying that it never happens but many shrinks would be worried about the legal problems that would arise if they didnt detain someone...
In this case i believe that they recommended detainment but he agreed to get help from an outpatient clinic....but who knows the truth because im sure they are covering their ass :-D
and no matter how crazy someone is sometimes even the psychiatrist doesnt know how crazy he/she really is until stuff like this happens
-
Ann, I dont think I ever said anything about killing all the mentally ill people or hiv people. I said if others had been armed they may have been able to stop the sick bastard. He was a sick bastard. Are we not allowed to protect ourselves from sick evil bastards?
Play the blame game. This slaughter of human life is the fault of one person. Not the mean people who bullied him. Not the rich people who he went to school with(i thought all the rich people in Virginia went to U of V). Not the health system. Not you . Not me. Not the media. Not Bush. Not Clinton. Only one person is to blame and he is dead. And that is a very good thing.
I have no compassion for this lunatic. I have a tremendous amount of compassion for all his victims. This clown was not a victim, he was fucking nuts and now he his dead.
Again the only thing that could have prevented this evil would be students or teachers with weapons.
-
The only way to have prevented the sick bastard last week would have been if students or teachers had been armed. That is a fact many will never be able to accept. This sicko would have found a way to get some type of weapon to accomplish his evil if we had stricter guns laws or if guns were totally illegal. The fight to ban guns is just as stupid as the war on drugs.
If I hear about this evil mutherfucker being bullied one more time I am gonna puke. Who wasnt bullied? He is dead and the world is a better place.
I am also sick of the national blame game that is in progress, much the same as after 911. Why cant people accept that there are evil people in the world and they are to blame.
I do not own a gun but most people here in Houston do and its a good thing.
man,,, ur ideas and people who live down there are SICK
Banning guns WORKS in other countries,,, r u saying that for some reason, Americans are just more violent? BS! Don't you realize that NRA is a biggest lobby in DC and there is TONS of money to be made in arming people???? Black market? Do you actually think it will be as easy to bring guns into the country as it is bringing drugs??? You can't compare,,,, R U one of those people who blame yourself for being promiscuous because you have HIV? what kind of rationalization is that?
If that kid was able to purchase a gun in the black market, there would have been at least some chance that he could have gotten caught, instead, he went down the street, went into the gun store, bought a gun and did all this killing. Gosh,,, I can't believe people with HIV thinks this way....
-
If that kid was able to purchase a gun in the black market, there would have been at least some chance that he could have gotten caught,
Actually getting things on he black market does not have that big of a risk of getting caught....it does have risk but definately not that big....
I bought tons of illegal substances on the blackmarket and never got caught...and i mean LOTS AND LOTS and i would drive to it....When you get things underground your usually pretty careful ...
-
did u get a gun? or just some petty drugs?
-
more than just petty drugs many drugs lol...but its all the same shit....you want something and you can get it.....
-
The 33 people (I am including the shooter since his death came as a gun shot suicide) killed at VaTech this week are less than 1% of the number of Americans that will be killed due to gun violence this year. Obviously what we are doing now is not working. The answer is definitely not to allow guns easier to get. I fail to see how allowing more Americans the opportunity to carry a concealed weapon will reduce the number of deaths. Strengthen the penalties associated with weapons possession, enforce the laws more diligently and ban any type of automatic or semiautomatic firearm. And while we are at it why don't all those churches worried about whether people of the same sex can marry concentrate on something that really hurts society - gun violence!!!
Woods
-
I don't think banning guns would help. More control, yes. But it's a society towards this violence and "kill first discuss later" attitude that is to be changed, and that, I think is possible. Education, network, communication, help, are tools that can make it work.
Oh and only 1 TV channel showing a fish tank so people go out and socialize instead of watching Kill Bill 2.
Milker (who loved Kill Bill)
-
guns or no guns....violent people are violent people ...its not going to help much with the crime rate or murder rates...if someone comes home to their wife screwing another guy....instead of shooting the person he will just stab him or beat him to death....Violence is already part of the society and it is what certain people know and act. You cant change that by taking away guns.....the violence neccesary to "kill" comes from within and has nothing to do with guns...
and there will still be masacres because if guns are "banned" then the only people searching for guns in the underground market will be killers, robbers, and the occasional "i dont care its illegal but i want to protect myself" person ...
This is how the world is going to end anyways : http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php ;D
-
people who live down there are SICK
What did you mean by that statement egello? I own guns and have, since I was 13. I'm a member of the NRA and I'm not sick nor have I have shot anyone. Just don't try to carjack me or break into my home.
-
sorry, i apologize, i was just furious.
so I am suppose to go on my life, as an American citizen, trusting that supposedly sane people like you, won't someday loose it, and take a gun outta wherever you keep it, and go on a rampage in a shopping center or schools,,,. I am suppose to depend my life on somebody else,,, and you know,, insanity is an easy line to cross over into.
-
milker and puertorico, I agree with what you both said. However, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to have any type of automactic weapon so why even have them available?
-
this sort of explains it all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_-gc9mLGHk&mode=related&search=
-
So when a lunatic like this guy at VT comes at me I can take him out.
-
i agree with maybe making gun controls stronger....
an insane person is going to go insane like that legal or not.....the person did not just walk into a store, buy a gun and go nuts....he had it planned out....
-
milker and puertorico, I agree with what you both said. However, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to have any type of automactic weapon so why even have them available?
i dont know why they have them available honestly....but as i said ...legal or not anything is obtainable if you look for it....
....on a side note....lets say someone buys something "underground" and then kills someone and flees and nobody survived to identify this person.....having bought the gun "legally" helps identify the shooter.....if you are forced to buy underground how would they know it was your gun???
-
There is a big difference between a semi automatic and a fully automatic. Do you think gun toting criminals are going to give a rats ass about laws? The only thing you are going to accomplish by more gun controls are with the law abiding gun owners not the criminals.
-
agreed ;D
-
And now a shooting at NASA.. I'm glad I work @ home..
-
Weak is baiting someone to get your rocks off.....
Hope you got off.............Philly
Now....
Perhaps you'd like to enlightened this ole Alabama boy
about gun control and dazzle me with your statistics.
-
milker and puertorico, I agree with what you both said. However, there is absolutely no reason for anyone to have any type of automactic weapon so why even have them available?
I agree, this is part of gun control. But most gun owners will say "if a burglar can get an AK47, then I want the right to own one too". Can't beat the argument if viewed that way.
Milker.
-
dazzle me with your statistics.
knock yourself out
(http://homepage.mac.com/bedstuy65/.Pictures/guns.jpg)
-
Philly can you repost as an attachment maybe, it's impossible to read :-\
Or a link?
Milker.
-
Philly can you repost as an attachment maybe, it's impossible to read :-\
Or a link?
Milker.
voila mon petit chou (http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html)
-
voila mon petit chou (http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html)
Merci ma poule :D
-
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
Statistics can be found to help both sides. Just sayin.
-
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
Statistics can be found to help both sides. Just sayin.
And this is where, as an informed individual, you make your own choices. I wish everyone would read both sides and think, but many don't.
Milker.
-
did u guys hear bush talking about making a list of people who might be threat/danger to the society????
randy on air America suggest making every gun purchaser get an insurance with every gun they own.
-
I"m already fingerprinted by the FBI, background checked, etc etc, because of my resident alien status, and on top of that state (and I imagine fed) knows i'm HIV+.
So I fall into this "dangerous" category.
Milker.
-
did u guys hear bush talking about making a list of people who might be threat/danger to the society????
this list would be incomplete....and many people who arent a danger to society will be put on this list...what a supid idea....it will just make people discriminate and fuel psychos to hate society.......it will affect people in jobs and other aspects of life and it may not be warranted....
its like making someone guilty before being proven innocent
-
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?id=206&issue=007
Statistics can be found to help both sides. Just sayin.
that still doesn't address comparable situations in other countries
-
.. I don't think you can understand unless you actually live there for some time.
Milker.
Perhaps, but I have zero desire to do so. As an HIV+ gay man, why would I?
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori
don't tell me this was just an accident!
so Benj,,, whatever happened to the guy who knocked out your door?
if not the gun law,,, what is making United States the most violent nation on the planet?
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori
don't tell me this was just an accident!
so Benj,,, whatever happened to the guy who knocked out your door?
if not the gun law,,, what is making United States the most violent nation on the planet?
People that try to take rights of others away.
People that keeps harping over and over on dead issues.
I suppose you want cars taken from people too? Cars kill how many people in the US each year? A hell of a lot more than guns do. ( 42,636 people died in car crashes in the U.S. in 2005)
How about stabbings? Do you want the government to collect all the knives?
-
*sigh*
That still doesn't answer the question about why our gun murder rate is so much higher than countries with tighter gun control.
And your having to resort to that old hobby horse argument about cars is hilarious and disingenuous.
-
yeap, yeap,
there really is no case for gun right people except that they want to own it, and will spend their money to fight to own it, where as people against guns have nothing to gain materially but just have strong opinions, so have less economical and political muscle power.
so, someone tell me why i should sacrifice my sense of safety so that few irrational people can have their fucked up sense of safety to rationalize their barbaric fear that can endanger others' lives while doing so?
what our government is doing in these wars, which are driven by their sense of fear that someone might take us down, is the same disgustingly simple and archaic convoluted rationalization; the core of which is really driven by their desire to make money at the cost of these barbaric murders.
-
Oh it would bother you to have your car taken away? But it wouldn't bother you about guns because you don't own any? Same difference guys. You wouldn't like it.
-
I don't own a car, little buckeroo.
At any rate, it's harder to get a car license in Virginia than a gun at a gun show, where there is no background check, etc. due to loop holes.
Still an irrelevant line of argument. Red herring fallacy, exit left please.
-
Oh it would bother you to have your car taken away? But it wouldn't bother you about guns because you don't own any? Same difference guys. You wouldn't like it.
owning cars does not equal owning guns,,,, is gun part of your everyday life? a necessity? for god's sake, its a killing weapon
i am sure any rational mind will understand how false this comparison is.
-
Try telling that to the man that was ran over by his wife in their Mercedes 10 times. Tell that to the people that have lost someone from a drunk driver. Don't tell me their is no comparison. Being able to have a gun is a protected right. Having a car and being able to drive it is a privilege.
-
Gun control doesn't generally mean "no guns" -- you DO realize this don't you Ron?
-
At any rate, it's harder to get a car license in Virginia than a gun at a gun show, where there is no background check, etc. due to loop holes.
That is something which has always mystified me. To be able to own and drive a car, you have to study, practice and pass both a written and practical exam. To own and use a gun, all you have to do is buy it. And then of course there's the issue of insurance...
Ann
-
And then of course there's the issue of insurance...
Well here is an idea.. get mandatory insurance before you can get the gun. Doesn't have to be expensive and could be insurance issued by the govt so it's not in private hands, but that would be another background check. If the govt had to pay insurance to all those families that lost people due to inappropriate use of a gun, I'm sure the background checks would be a lot more effective..
Milker.
-
Well if we take the guns away from the law abiding citizens ....then only the criminal element will have them and I don't know about you
but that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. But that's my opinion.
I do agree that assault rifles and other automatic weapons should be banned...
but even if they were outlawed....the criminal element would still have theirs and then the cops would be at a disadvantage.
No matter how you look at it....It is impossible to prevent this type of tragedy.
I'm quite certain Canada has tragedies like this too
maybe not as many but nonetheless they have them too.
-
Well if we take the guns away from the law abiding citizens ....then only the criminal element will have them...
That's pretty much the situation in every other progressive Western country, and it seems to work OK for all of us.