Author Topic: Have a salad and skip your vitamins (Read 14184 times)

Miss Philicia · « **on:** February 21, 2009, 01:58:08 pm »

I realize that this didn't address specifics of HIV infection and vitamin deficiency, and for that reason I plan on continuing an intake of one multi-vitamin daily just as I have for 16 years of infection as a "safeguard", as well as vitamin D/calcium to address osteo potential issues due to Viread and fish oil for my minimally elevated lipid panel numbers. But it does make one wonder about the endless hyperventilation in some quarters about excessive focus on supplements.

The focus, I would think, continues to be on proper nutrition. Fortunately I adore grocery shopping and cooking.

New York Times link

February 17, 2009

Vitamin Pills: A False Hope?

By TARA PARKER-POPE

Ever since the Nobel Prize-winning biochemist Linus Pauling first promoted “megadoses” of essential nutrients 40 years ago, Americans have been devoted to their vitamins. Today about half of all adults use some form of dietary supplement, at a cost of $23 billion a year.

But are vitamins worth it? In the past few years, several high-quality studies have failed to show that extra vitamins, at least in pill form, help prevent chronic disease or prolong life.

The latest news came last week after researchers in the Women’s Health Initiative study tracked eight years of multivitamin use among more than 161,000 older women. Despite earlier findings suggesting that multivitamins might lower the risk for heart disease and certain cancers, the study, published in The Archives of Internal Medicine, found no such benefit.

Last year, a study that tracked almost 15,000 male physicians for a decade reported no differences in cancer or heart disease rates among those using vitamins E and C compared with those taking a placebo. And in October, a study of 35,000 men dashed hopes that high doses of vitamin E and selenium could lower the risk of prostate cancer.

Of course, consumers are regularly subjected to conflicting reports and claims about the benefits of vitamins, and they seem undeterred by the news — to the dismay of some experts.

“I’m puzzled why the public in general ignores the results of well-done trials,” said Dr. Eric Klein, national study coordinator for the prostate cancer trial and chairman of the Cleveland Clinic’s Glickman Urological and Kidney Institute. “The public’s belief in the benefits of vitamins and nutrients is not supported by the available scientific data.”

Everyone needs vitamins, which are essential nutrients that the body can’t produce on its own. Inadequate vitamin C leads to scurvy, for instance, and a lack of vitamin D can cause rickets.

But a balanced diet typically provides an adequate level of these nutrients, and today many popular foods are fortified with extra vitamins and minerals. As a result, diseases caused by nutrient deficiency are rare in the United States.

In any event, most major vitamin studies in recent years have focused not on deficiencies but on whether high doses of vitamins can prevent or treat a host of chronic illnesses. While people who eat lots of nutrient-rich fruits and vegetables have long been known to have lower rates of heart disease and cancer, it hasn’t been clear whether ingesting high doses of those same nutrients in pill form results in a similar benefit.

In January, an editorial in The Journal of the National Cancer Institute noted that most trials had shown no cancer benefits from vitamins — with a few exceptions, like a finding that calcium appeared to lower the recurrence of precancerous colon polyps by 15 percent.

But some vitamin studies have also shown unexpected harm, like higher lung cancer rates in two studies of beta carotene use. Another study suggested a higher risk of precancerous polyps among users of folic acid compared with those in a placebo group.

In 2007, The Journal of the American Medical Association reviewed mortality rates in randomized trials of antioxidant supplements. In 47 trials of 181,000 participants, the rate was 5 percent higher among the antioxidant users. The main culprits were vitamin A, beta carotene and vitamin E; vitamin C and selenium seemed to have no meaningful effect.

“We call them essential nutrients because they are,” said Marian L. Neuhouser, an associate member in cancer prevention at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle. “But there has been a leap into thinking that vitamins and minerals can prevent anything from fatigue to cancer to Alzheimer’s. That’s where the science didn’t pan out.”

Everyone is struggling to make sense of the conflicting data, said Andrew Shao, vice president for scientific and regulatory affairs at the Council for Responsible Nutrition, a vitamin industry trade group. Consumers and researchers need to “redefine our expectations for these nutrients,” he said. “They aren’t magic bullets.”

Part of the problem, he said, may stem from an inherent flaw in the way vitamins are studied. With drugs, the gold standard for research is a randomized clinical trial in which some patients take a drug and others a placebo. But vitamins are essential nutrients that people ingest in their daily diets; there is no way to withhold them altogether from research subjects.

Vitamins given in high doses may also have effects that science is only beginning to understand. In a test tube, cancer cells gobble up vitamin C, and studies have shown far higher levels of vitamin C in tumor cells than are found in normal tissue.

The selling point of antioxidant vitamins is that they mop up free radicals, the damaging molecular fragments linked to aging and disease. But some free radicals are essential to proper immune function, and wiping them out may inadvertently cause harm.

In a study at the University of North Carolina, mice with brain cancer were given both normal and vitamin-depleted diets. The ones who were deprived of antioxidants had smaller tumors, and 20 percent of the tumor cells were undergoing a type of cell death called apoptosis, which is fueled by free radicals. In the fully nourished mice, only 3 percent of tumor cells were dying.

“Most antioxidants are also pro-oxidants,” said Dr. Peter H. Gann, professor and director of research in the department of pathology at the University of Illinois at Chicago. “In the right context and the right dose, they may be able to cause problems rather than prevent them.”

Scientists suspect that the benefits of a healthful diet come from eating the whole fruit or vegetable, not just the individual vitamins found in it. “There may not be a single component of broccoli or green leafy vegetables that is responsible for the health benefits,” Dr. Gann said. “Why are we taking a reductionist approach and plucking out one or two chemicals given in isolation?”

Even so, some individual vitamin research is continuing. Scientists are beginning to study whether high doses of whole-food extracts can replicate the benefits of a vegetable-rich diet. And Harvard researchers are planning to study whether higher doses of vitamin D in 20,000 men and women can lower risk for cancer and other chronic diseases.

“Vitamin D looks really promising,” said Dr. JoAnn E. Manson, the chief of preventive medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and an investigator on several Harvard vitamin studies. “But we need to learn the lessons from the past. We should wait for large-scale clinical trials before jumping on the vitamin bandwagon and taking high doses.”

bear60 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2009, 02:16:05 pm »

Thanks for that David.
I find it very sad that so many unscrupulous people prey on those of us who are grasping at staws for something like a "magic" fix or cure or remedy or treatment.
There is nothing like a good diet.... I know.
My former partner died after a homeopathic doctor treated him for HIV and also changed to a macrobiotic diet ( Louise Hay...HEAL YOUR BODY). That doctor took money from him and promised he was treating the HIV.
Delaying treatment for HIV was the biggest problem. Paul ended up in the hospital with Pneumocistic Pneumonia and severe wasting. After one serious opportunistic infection, CMV, he died.
(Its no wonder I have little patience for posters that talk of "self dosing" with all sorts of questionable substances.)

lonewolf · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2009, 03:18:52 pm »

A fresh salad with tons of fresh vegies from the garden sounds so good. In the summer it tastes so good and fresh with tons of chopped up herbs from the garden too. Live way up north, in MN, so the smaller grocery stores don't have a large or fresh variety all the time..

Guess I will stick to the multi-vitamin daily too...

Hugs, Bruce

mpositive · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2009, 02:00:13 pm »

I hope and pray that people with any disease, be it chronic or terminal, see that Vitamins are NOT in any way a cure. I believe in them as complementary to your diet, but in no way an "alternative" to treatment.
M

Peter Staley · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:11:04 pm »

I'm actually thinking of dropping the multivitamin, which like Philly, I've been doing for as long as I can remember.

Why take something when we have no idea what good or bad it's doing to us? Maybe HIV itself loves a little boost of antioxidants (just like cancer cells do). We just don't know.

I haven't stopped quite yet, but probably won't buy another bottle once my current supply runs out.

mpositive · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:46:05 pm »

"just like cancer cells"? Never heard that before, is that true?

madbrain · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2009, 09:14:11 pm »

I am not sure what to make of this. It's not the first time this writer from the NYT, and before that, the WSJ, has been writing against vitamins. See :

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/news-keeps-getting-worse-for-vitamins/

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117314400529327741.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB114235146814497776-email.html

Personally, I find it difficult to brush off all the research that has gone into vitamins so far all at once. Especially when she is a fairly lonely voice doing so. If you go to scholar.google.com and search for vitamins, you will find 846,000 scientific papers. I doubt that Mrs Parker-Pope has read them all.

There are still plenty of good reasons to take vitamins that don't have anything to do with the studies she cites .

For us HIVers, there have been many studies that showed HIV causes lower absorption even from a good diet, and that the multi vitamin helped make up for that problem.

Also, many medications (for HIV or not) cause depletions of certain vitamins in the body. You can ask your doctor about this type of side effect for every med you take. I take several meds that deplete my vitamin D, and I have for years. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that my new psychiatrist volunteered this information about this side effect of a med I had been taking for years, and I subsequently had my D level checked. I had a severe deficiency and now take very large doses of supplemental D (about 15x the RDA) to make up for it and be in the normal range for D level.

I would never say that that the vitamins are a magic bullet or cure for anything, and certainly not for HIV, but that's a very long way from saying that they are generally worthless. They should be used in combination with diet and whatever treatment is necessary, not as an alternative.

I will admit that I have been guilty of taking a large number of supplements. In fact, up to 28 different ones and 58 capsules/tablets per day at the peak. I will not renew them all when I run out, but there are some with more scientific support than others that I won't stop for sure, and these include the multivitamin and the vitamin D. The others are somewhat more difficult to decide on and I'm still unsure. When I first started my regimen in august 2007, my energy level was way down, and it shot up after I did. I don't know if it' a placebo effect or not. But I haven't felt very tired anymore like I used to before starting them. My CD4/CD4%/VL numbers have also remained very good with no sign of decline. Again, I have no way of knowing if any of the pills helped, and which ones, or if it's my genetic makeup protecting me against the HIV. I'm not really anxious to stop to find out, either. It seems easier to continue what works. Except I have to eat a lot of food with all those pills.

Peter Staley · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:49:43 am »

Quote from: mpositive on February 22, 2009, 07:46:05 pm

"just like cancer cells"? Never heard that before, is that true?

Studies have indicated this, yes. Read the NYT article at the top of this thread.

veritas · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2009, 01:41:02 pm »

Nutrition Wars:

The Growing War Between Modern Medicine and the Public

How can the U.S. significantly reduce health-care costs, and yet plan on increased employment in the health-care industry? According to the article linked below, this is the moral crux for American medicine. If Americans become healthier, there will be fewer jobs. Maybe this is why modern medicine drags its feet when it comes to preventive medicine.

The government is complicit in spawning the diabetes/obesity epidemic by subsidizing the production of non-nutrient-dense foods and high-fructose corn syrup. Statin anti-cholesterol drugs are approved by the FDA even though they don’t reduce mortality rates. Modern medicine is an industry that wants more, not less, disease to treat. Doctors aren’t interested in disease prevention -- conventional medicine is quick to dismiss any truly preventive therapies as unproven and requiring more study.

Still, an estimated 38 percent of U.S. adults, along with 12 percent of children, use some type of complementary and alternative medicine, according to a new U.S. government survey.

Complementary and alternative medicine refers to a wide-ranging collection of medical and health care systems, practices and products that aren't generally considered conventional medicine. They include herbal supplements, meditation, chiropractic treatment and acupuncture.

For the survey, more than 23,300 adults were interviewed about their use of complementary and alternative medicine. More than 9,400 were also asked about their children's use of complementary and alternative medicine.

The survey found that the use of techniques such as deep breathing, meditation, massage therapy, and yoga increased significantly. The most common supplements used by adults are omega 3 fats, glucosamine, echinacea, flaxseed, and ginseng.

Other findings from the survey showed that more women than men use complementary and alternative medicine (42.8 percent versus 33.5 percent). Older, more educated and wealthier adults also used complementary and alternative medicine in greater numbers.

It’s no wonder that 38 percent of American adults have opted for alternative medicine. Where else can the public turn? Many patients are belittled when they tell their doctors they are taking dietary supplements instead of prescription drugs.

Americans are increasingly distrustful of prescription medicines. According to a 2005 poll, 35 percent of Americans who were prescribed drugs didn’t take them because they wanted to save money, and another 28 percent didn’t take them because of "frightening side effects.

It is becoming increasingly clear that conventional medicine is working against the public welfare.

Sources:
U.S. News December 10, 2008
National Health Federation
[blocked URL].com December 13, 2008

Merlin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2009, 04:23:38 pm »

I personally believe that there is a place for co-existence between allopathic and alternative medicine. In the West, there are still people who consider TCM as quack medicine, whereas in the East, it is an accepted proven practice considered routine, one which has been around since 2698 BCE.

We do not need to look far nor dig deep to have an example of what would happen if we put all our eggs into one basket.
Case and point: The Hoxsey Clinic and its many battles with conventional medicine is a highly documented, visible and famous example of what can happen and will, if we surrender our 10th Amendment rights to choose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na_ZOnWqWeI (Excerpt)

Full Hoxsey story: http://videos.gaia.com/416079/hoxsey_how_healing_becomes_a_crime

The article posted by veritas is indeed sad but true. If left to the vices of the powers that be, then everything that threatens the hefty profits of the medi-pharma industry will be regulated. The FDA & FTC are currently pursuing Codex Alimentarius; if approved, will spell the death of the natural supplements industry and plunge many into unnecessary unemployment and possibly poorer health from such unethical actions.

Read:
http://reliableanswers.com/med/vitamins.asp
http://www.natural-health-information-centre.com/codex-alimentarius.html

There MUST be balances/moderation in life to ensure the basic freedom in choice. If we allow extremes, it may one day prove, too far right or left, to ever recover from another of our own created disasters.

Similarly, has modern science ever proved that God of any faith, does exist or that believing in one's faith does not heal? Should we then allow conventional science the extreme powers to dictate miracles, if ever there will be, & limit the boundaries of all that is ever possible? You decide, whilst you still can.

aztecan · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2009, 10:30:05 am »

I tend to wonder whether a multivitamin is needed, especially in the States. It seems everything we buy here is fortified with something.

But, at the same time, I think living with HIV has been demonstrated to be a drain on our bodies and helps to more quickly consume any resources therein.

I try to get my vitamins from the food I eat or drink as much as possible, simply because I think it is more easily absorbed than the pills.

An example is the 8 oz of fresh carrot juice I drink each morning. I have had people warn me it would turn me orange and that too much would be harmful.

I have done it for years and never turned orange or had any other side effect.

I take some supplements, but most are for specific things:

Milk thistle to assist the liver;

Saw Palmetto for prostate health;

CoQ10 for heart health;

etc.

I also take a couple of things, specifically L Carnitine and Lipoic Acid, because they may address the build up of fat associated with lipohypertrophy.

Do any of these things work? I don't know.

I do feel better since I started taking them, but that could be the placebo effect.

In the end, I guess it boils down to personal choice.

HUGS,

Mark

mpositive · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2009, 02:45:28 pm »

Placebo effect? Not sure about that. Here's the thing we should all realize. Each and everyone of us, Pos or Neg for that matter, are different. We consume different amounts of certain vitamins and minerals based on our lifestyle.
The differences are wide ranging at that:
Different Stress levels - stress is known to drain a person
Different chemistry - each have our own health issues on going
Age - it is a fact that the older you get, the less your body is able to absorb nutrients in a timely fashion, meaning in the time the food goes through your body.

So, a multi-vitamin, provided that you have checked with your doctor for interactions of course, could only help, as it fills in any undetected gaps in your body. Especially during times of stress.

I remember a long time ago reading how one cigarette can absorb as much as 30mg of Vit C from your body. The FDA daily recommended value of Vit C is 60mg. At the end of the day, if it does not hurt you and has a chance of improving your daily life.....might be worth looking at.
Just some words a not so wise me,........

M

dixieman · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2009, 02:59:29 pm »

I take vitamins, herbs, and exercise in moderation... so I think the odds outway the possibilities... of possible cancer but, selenium is a must...

risred1 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2009, 09:30:41 pm »

Please keep in mind that a good diet is a must, but a diet designed for folk who are HIV negative may not meet our needs as HIV Positive people.

HIV has a number of effects. Inflamatory, Metobolic, Digestive, Vascular, which all we have to do is go to the Aidsmeds news to witness.

I use supplements to counteract these effects and as a preventative agent.

For example, Aidsmeds reported that Acetylcarnitine may be effective in managing PN. I don't have PN, but I also am not waiting for the inflammatory effects of HIV to affect my nerve sheaths.

So while the NY times article on the study of vitamins is what it is. I don't necessarily see the relevance when put in context to what a person who is HIV positive has to deal with and what we are trying to offset dealing with a chronic condition.

Thinking in terms of being HIV negative, that may not be the best approach in dealing with ones HIV infection. I am not trying to be inflamatory, so to speak, but in my opinion, we are trying to deal with something that shouldn't be viewed from the mainstream, which these studies seem to largely be focused at.

fearless · « **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2009, 10:22:42 pm »

I agree with Philly's overall sentiment - the focus should be on proper nutrition.

It's kinda a bit silly to be popping multivitamins and the like if you have a crap diet in the first place. They really should be used, if at all, to supplement a healthy diet. A healthy diet should give you all the vitamins, minerals etc that you need.

A diet of burgers and junk food + a multivitamin is still a bad diet no matter which way you look at it.

sharkdiver · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2009, 10:29:25 pm »

Prevention seems to be a wise choice: vitamins to possibly prevent cellular damage from HIV...condoms to definitely prevent infecting others with HIV...
Although I think condoms are much cheaper than having to take meds the rest of your life and as well as extra vitamins.

Maybe this could be a new prevention mantra....Eat a Salad, Wear a Condom

modified for spelling..it's been a long day

risred1 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2009, 12:15:25 am »

Quote from: fearless on March 05, 2009, 10:22:42 pm

I agree with Philly's overall sentiment - the focus should be on proper nutrition.

It's kinda a bit silly to be popping multivitamins and the like if you have a crap diet in the first place. They really should be used, if at all, to supplement a healthy diet. A healthy diet should give you all the vitamins, minerals etc that you need.

A diet of burgers and junk food + a multivitamin is still a bad diet no matter which way you look at it.

The point is, what is a "healthy" diet for someone who is HIV positive?

Would you say it is the same as a healthy diet for someone who is HIV Neg? This is where I fundamentally disagree with this line of reasoning. Considering the known and documented effects of HIV, what diet would one follow to offset the inflamatory, metabolic, digestive and vascular effects alone?

If the response is, you should eat the following, then we are now getting somewhere, because the good ole, average everyday "good" diet, may not be doing enough for those specific effects I'm asking about.

So, my counterpoint is, saying a good diet is all you need, I think assumes we all know what that is. If we could point to a dietary guideline for folks with HIV, that is designed to address the above issues, might be a good counterpoint to supplementation. Because I think I'm addressing these issues with supplements.

I'm not talking about a multi vitamin. We're talking about Selenium, Vitamin D, NAC, Alpha Lipoic Acid, Carnintine, MSM, Glutamine, etc.

aztecan · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2009, 10:54:12 pm »

I think there have been several very good points made in this discussion.

To start with, I think the concept expressed by Philly, Steve and others is very true.

Eating a crappy diet can't be made up for by popping some pills.

Risred also made some good points regarding the addition of some supplements for those who do try to eat a healthy diet.

While I appreciate the New York Times story, It doesn't include, nor was it written for, Hi Fivers. We have different nutritional requirements that sometimes just can't be met with food.

Anyway, that's my 2¢ worth.

HUGS,

Mark

J.R.E. · « **Reply #18 on:** March 09, 2009, 06:21:00 am »

Here's a good read, and it's from the lessons : People need to decide, what is good and whats not good for them.

http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/Nutrition_7670.shtml

Ray

mjmel · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2009, 08:07:37 pm »

I pop a multi now and again. Not daily. Not regularly. Just here and there--in case my meals aren't balanced (they sometimes don't include all food groups). Been this way for the past 20+ years. No major illnesses. I haven't had the flu in about 7 years...can't even remember when I was sick with anything but an occasional cold. That being said, I have had my share of side effects from aidsmeds.
Mike

clsoca · « **Reply #20 on:** March 15, 2009, 08:33:48 pm »

Astronauts take vitamins. Therefore, If it's good enough for them, good enough for me.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2009, 07:45:51 pm »

I just found out at my doctor's visit today that calcium supplements are on our ADAP formulary so I will be able to get them for free now. Unfortunately they're refusing to put that new fish oil product on the formulary, but I've read elsewhere how much it costs so I don't find that surprising. Whatever the amount was it was outrageous considering what it costs elsewhere. No wonder our healthcare system in the US if fucked up.

madbrain · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:00:27 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2009, 07:45:51 pm

I just found out at my doctor's visit today that calcium supplements are on our ADAP formulary so I will be able to get them for free now.

Cool.

Quote

Unfortunately they're refusing to put that new fish oil product on the formulary, but I've read elsewhere how much it costs so I don't find that surprising.

What fish oil product ?

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:08:40 pm »

Lovaza.

http://www.lovaza.com/

From what I've read it costs $3360 per year for one person.

madbrain · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2009, 01:52:06 am »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 18, 2009, 11:08:40 pm

Lovaza.

http://www.lovaza.com/

From what I've read it costs $3360 per year for one person.

I hadn't heard of it. From the web site, it just looks like a regular omega-3 supplement, except they have a special "5-step purification process", and FDA approval.

The Costco online pharmacy price for lovaza is $243 for 180 1-gram capsules. It seems that daily dose is 4 grams capsules . That would put the annual cost at $1971.
Still, that's very expensive for what's essentially a dietary supplement and obviously unaffordable without insurance or ADAP coverage.

You can buy a good highly concentrated over-the-counter omega-3 supplement for much less than that though.

The following has about the same concentration of omega-3 EPA/DHA as lovaza : http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=8341&at=1 . And it's about 10% of the cost . It's also purified (though not 5 steps, whatever they are ..). Just not FDA approved. But it would probably work just as well if you match the dosage.

Merlin · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2009, 05:21:50 pm »

Pretty obvious that the FDA is moving into the supplements industry. By waving the FDA badge, they wield control. And so they think. I wonder if they got their bailout bonuses too?

aztecan · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2009, 12:18:45 am »

I know someone taking Lovaza. He is taking 4 grams (4,000 mgs) a day. It is by prescription. i don't know how much he pays in copays. but I believe it is more than I pay for over the counter concentrated fish oil.

I take 6,000 mgs of concentrated fish oil (that's 6 grams) every day. It runs me about $20 or so a month.

HUGS,

Mark

madbrain · « **Reply #27 on:** April 02, 2009, 07:03:21 pm »

Quote from: aztecan on March 20, 2009, 12:18:45 am

I know someone taking Lovaza. He is taking 4 grams (4,000 mgs) a day. It is by prescription. i don't know how much he pays in copays. but I believe it is more than I pay for over the counter concentrated fish oil.

I take 6,000 mgs of concentrated fish oil (that's 6 grams) every day. It runs me about $20 or so a month.

I am sure copays for a brand name drug would be higher than $20 a month on most insurance plans these days. Unless someone had double coverage.

Incidently, I went to the doc with my bf monday, and his tcells were good at nearly 394 - that's about as high as they have ever been -, but his triglycerides shot up the roof, to 336 . I don't recall right now what the unit was. The doc told him to take 4g a day of fish oil. He didn't give him a prescription for that, just told us to use OTC. I got him started later that day from my reserves (I take omega-3 too, but just 2g/day, for bipolar). He has to get another lab in a month to recheck triglycerides so we will see if the Now foods omega-3 works for him.

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Author Topic: Have a salad and skip your vitamins (Read 14184 times)