POZ Community Forums
Meds, Mind, Body & Benefits => Nutrition & HIV => Topic started by: MadisonTeddy on March 23, 2014, 10:33:34 am
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Good morning...I am about to start taking some vitamin supplements..C,D,B and a Multi...Anything else suggested??
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I've moved your thread into the Nutrition forum as that is where we talk about things like vitamin supplements.
Don't waste your money on anything other than a run-of-the-mill multi-vitamin supplement if you feel you must take vitamins. All supplements really do is give you expensive pee.
What you should be doing instead is eating a well-balanced diet. Vitamins in real food are absorbed much better by the body then they can be when taken in the form of supplements.
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By the way, you really should read this thread - Another Supplement Warning (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=51929.msg617423#msg617423) and make sure you click on and read the articles linked to in that thread.
Personally, I stopped wasting my money on supplements a few years ago and other than having that little bit more money in my pocket, I haven't noticed the slightest difference.
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Actually my doctor has me taking a multi-vitamin, vitamin D/calcium, omega-3 fish oil and chondroitin; but the last three are for specific issues and not necessarily applicable to a newly diagnosed patient or someone who has not been on meds long.
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I take calcium w/ D, and Osteo-Biflex. The first is because of severe osteoporosis, the second is just an attempt to see if it helps the pain from the avascular necrosis. My ortho's nurse practitioner who does the healthy bone program at their office, told me some people swear by the Osteo. We'll see.
Of course right now the lingering pain from the hip surgery is kind of super-ceding the knee pain. So, we'll see.
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My personal choice when comes to multivitamins is Super Immune Multivitamin made by super nutrition and omega 3 fish oil 800 epa/500 dha made by vitamine shoppe.
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Um, just for the record, taking supplements under the direction and supervision of your doctor is a different situation to folks who, for example, think things like "if supplements are a good thing, then more supplements must be even better!"
Always let your doctor know if and what supplements you're taking - if he or she didn't prescribe them for you in the first place.
And by the way Madison, could you please acknowledge when you see this thread so I can remove the moved notice in the other forum? Thanks!
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Thanks everyone...I also checked out Dr, Joel Gallant and he only recommends 2000 vitamin D...Thanks for everyone's input.. Multivitamin, 1000 C, and 2000 D (on Atripla)
is my beginning choice...
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Most multi-vitamins have vit. D in it -- the one I take has 500 IU. Dr. Gallant is not Jesus, nor is he your doctor who knows what your current vitamin D levels are and if they necessitate taking more than that. Is there a reason you're not having these conversations with your own doctor?
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Vitamins are certainly not useless, nor are other holistic and herbal medications. Now, I do believe that there are some people out there that take a ton of vitamins expecting a miracle and end up with what Ann said, expensive pee.
When taken appropriately, vitamins have been shown to drastically improve and maintain overall health and certain conditions. That being said, there are many, many different variances in brands/composition, dosages and quality. There are also water-soluable (B and C) and fat-soluable vitamins (ADE and K) Each type has a different mechanism of action in your body, is absorbed differently in your body and is used differently in your body. Eg: You can take all the vitamin C you want to help yourself get over a cold but since it's water-soluable, especially since the normal tendency of the vitamin is to dissolve fairly quickly and pass through your body, it is entirely possible to take too much and have it do nothing.
As Ann said as well, vitamins (and minerals we all need to live) are found in all kinds of foods and are better absorbed through foods, but sometimes we have a deficiency or need a little extra...that's why there are supplements; Again, though, the quality of the supplement does matter.
I've personally taken vitamins for years and rarely get sick, have only had 3 cavaties, my cholesterol, lipids, blood pressure, liver function, kidney function (despite a couple kidney stones, which I blame on poor dietary choices on my part), bone density etc...are all rock star. Besides the fact I'm poz now, I've never really had any bad medical problems.
There's actually a fairly new study occuring where preliminary data has shown there is a link to selenium and multivitams delaying the progression of hiv:
http://consumer.healthday.com/aids-information-1/aids-and-hiv-sexually-transmitted-diseases-news-607/multivitamins-may-help-fight-hiv-progression-study-suggests-682529.html
(I don't know much about the above mentioned, but I'm interested to follow it)
Zinc has also been shown to not only improve immune function, but also to help testosterone levels in men, which not only naturally decrease with age but also decrease as a common side effect with hiv and its treatment.
To my understanding, though, as far as hiv meds go, one must be very cautious about herbal supplements. I asked my ID doctor if any of the vitamins I took would have an effect on the meds I would start and she told me no, that they were good to take.
So, keep doing the research, stay healthy and let us know how you're doing :)
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Vitamins have no impact on HIV progression, zero . The thread Ann linked to has some very good latest information about how vitamin therapy on a whole is not effective except where a deficiency is identified in select patients .
I cringe when I see article like the one linked in the above post , it gives the false impression that vitamins can help slow the progression of HIV but the truth is if you need treatment for HIV then ARV's is the only treatment that will save your life .
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Vitamins have no impact on HIV progression, zero . The thread Ann linked to has some very good latest information about how vitamin therapy on a whole is not effective except where a deficiency is identified in select patients .
I cringe when I see article like the one linked in the above post , it gives the false impression that vitamins can help slow the progression of HIV but the truth is if you need treatment for HIV then ARV's is the only treatment that will save your life .
Bizkits - what Jeff said.
Read carefully:
New research from Africa suggests that basic multivitamin and selenium supplements might greatly lower the risk that untreated people with the AIDS virus will get sicker over a two-year period.New research from Africa suggests that basic multivitamin and selenium supplements might greatly lower the risk that untreated people with the AIDS virus will get sicker over a two-year period.
There is nothing NEW about this. And the ideal situation is that people who need HIV treatment get the very best treatment available, at the right time. The ideal situation is that everyone in the world has enough good food to eat and actually eats it. How repulsive is this: Is this the best we can do?
lower the risk that untreated people with the AIDS virus will get sicker over a two-year period
Repeat. This has been known for years. All it means is that a few nutrients help people who desperately need them. THESE PEOPLE NEED TREATMENT. BASTA.
Jeez.
If you are not malnourished, and if you have access to treatment in a timely manner, supplements are meaningless in your fight against an HIV infection, if there is LACK OF TREATMENT. Research like this is scandalous and sad. To me, its like saying, research shows a person bleeding out will last a few hours longer before death, if you put a bandage on the gash.
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Im sorry to be testy. I remember we poured thousands and thousands of dollars in supplements into our loved ones with AIDS in the 80s and it was heartbreaking to know it couldn't stop the "bleeding".
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Im to lazy to go find it but I seem to remember a few negative national news story's when the African claim about vitamins and HIV came out it was soundly refuted pretty quickly .
As Mecch pointed out vitamin and snake oil salesman are a painful part of our past as well as the whole vitamin and HIV thing also has deep roots in the HIV denialist camp that has killed more than a few precious souls .
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Vitamins and Supplements are way for business to take money from the gullible and uneducated.
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I'm not disputing one bit the need for effective ART and I never once said that vitamin therapy alone would be effective against HIV.
However, what I am saying is that vitamin "therapy" is good for overall health maintenance and always has been. Can someone get enough vitamins, nutrients and minerals through diet alone? Well, sure, but the fact is nobody eats "perfectly". Not everyone exercises how the experts say we should if any at all. We all as humans have modifiable and non-modifiable conditions and behaviors as well which impact our overall health and how we need to take care of ourselves. If you smoke, you're going to have vitamin deficiencies. If you drink, you're going to have vitamin deficiencies. If you don't eat your veggies like a good boy or girl, you're going to have vitamin deficiencies, etc. If you're on certain types of meds, including those which treat hiv or hcv, you're probably going to develop a vitamin D deficiency...just as much as if you work night shift and never see the light of day.
According to the world health organization, vitamin and micronutrient deficiencies are the number one cause of preventable conditions. We're also not talking about starving, malnourished people in Africa who desperately need them. We're talking about every day, first-world people...who don't have enough sense to not eat at McDonalds every night or think that they're eating healthy because they're eating soup...out of a can. One must look closely at their lifestyle and determine if anything they're doing...or not doing could be causing any potential vitamin deficiencies, and decide if they want to supplement it or change their lifestyle. Does that fix everything? No, of course not. But it helps. On an opposite note, as a nurse, it's frustrating to see someone who can't afford anything to eat except a bag of cheetos or a candy bar out of a vending machine at a time. We can't always feed them, we can't always be right there with them. But we can send them out the door with a bottle of multi-vitamins and it DOES, if taken as directed improve their health to a degree.
I'd absolutely agree that "more is not better". It most certainly is not, and can absolutely cause damage in the long run. However, there are certain cases in which temporary increases in vitamins can help someone past an ailment, not necessarily just a chronic condition.
What baffles me the most is the seemingly ongoing debate over prescription medication vs. vitamins and why there are so many people at such bitter odds with each other over it. They are both appropriate and both have their useful purpose. BOTH need to be used appropriately, that has never been the argument.
I would encourage anyone, poz or neg, black or white, whatever, to take at the bare minimum a good solid multi-vitamin a day.
I must disagree with the point that the research such as I mentioned in my previous post is "scandolous and sad, like putting putting a band-aid on if you're bleeding out". Albeit my infamiliarity with it; It may not be an answer, it certainly is not a cure but it is something. It's something that maybe, just maybe could be used for good and also for the development of future research...no matter how big or small. That's just it-we don't know. We can all go on the internet and find hundreds if not thousands of websites full of articles and opinions from very a wide variety of sources and varying stances. Some more credible than other, I'll concede.
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes or discredit anyone and their knowledge and experience. I don't understand a lot of the reality of living through and with hiv, as I'm very new. I have however been in the medical/nursing profession for a while and I do have some knowledge and experience in the "taking care of yourself overall" category. I'm no expert, and I hope I will never stop learning, though.
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Bizkits, you put that nicely and I agree with you.
Also I personally see a value for supplements for healthy living. As well as compliments from other health systems, for example acupuncture, chinese medicine, ayurvedic medicine, some other stuff too which is pretty far out....
My objection to the research isn't the findings. Its just to be sure to make a meta statement and see such finding in social, economic, and historical context. And there is nothing "new" about the findings because a decade ago the selenium effect was already known and researched, and yes, in Africa. Which at the time was battling to get access to HAART - antivirals... Which was the real, moral correct need. Not a multivitamin.
Sure its good to know a multivitamin with selenium can statistically help an HIV+ population but as the article says the primary need is for HAART anyway.
Nobody would want to go into health care with an HIV infection and be "sent away" (in so many words) with a multivitamin, and a holding pattern that may not be individually suitable to the need, rather the result of limited resource allocation, we all agree...
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I was one of those unfortunates who, in the early days (late 80's, early 90's) thought supplements could suppress the virus. Oh, I also took the meds, off and on, but they were pretty toxic themselves.
What I found out from taking all the vitamins and supplements, was that I was spending copious amounts of money on pills that did nothing. The HIV progressed, I ended up in wasting, etc. And it's not always the uneducated that these treatments seem to draw. I was educated, academically.
I read a while back, research stating even a daily multivitamin was useless, in people who are already healthy. I believe all these types of things should be talked over with one's doctor. I take the calcium w/ D for obvious reasons. The Osteo-BiFlex is just an experiment. But that's it for me. I was over spending money on vitamins and supplements, quite a while ago.
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I can see your point, Mecch and I agree with it. Healthcare in any regard can't be looked at with anything less than a multi-faceted approach. But there are definitely specific treatments for specific conditions and that's what we should stick with.
I also support alternatives to healthy living such as you mentioned, having partaken in a couple myself. I personally love acupuncture, whether it's a placebo effect or not. I worked with a nurse at my last facility who for her promotion and advancement boards was having to do a research study of her own. Since she was also a LMT, she did it on "Healing Touch" and had some wonderful responses. So much so, in fact, she was given her very own clinic to conduct once-per-week.
I also fully support, especially in our cases discussing any vitamin or supplement you are taking with your doctor. That should go without saying.
There are always going to be the people who say vitamins are useless, worthless and a waste of money. I respect their opinion and right to take care of themselves the way they see fit. I, however am an advocate for vitamins, have always taken them and will always take them. That's not to say I use them in excess-that, I agree is foolish.
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A bit late here, but this is a topic I've been thinking about lately.
I've taken a daily multi-vitamin for years and years. Figured why not, it couldn't hurt and doesn't cost much. About three years ago I added a daily D3 tab on the advice of my doc, who said I was deficient in vitamin D.
But now there have been a spate of articles like this one: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/16/a-challenge-to-vitamins/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
I asked my doc about it recently, and he said a daily multivitamin is hard on the kidneys, and may be doing more harm than good. He still makes an exception for vitamin D.
Multivitamins also aren't supposed to be taken with the new integrase inhibitor Tivicay, a drug I might switch to later this year.
So I think the balance of evidence is finally in favor of dropping the daily multivitamin altogether, at least for me. One less pill a day doesn't sound bad.
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to those who think that supplements are useless and/or ineffective:
Blood test showed a Vitamin D deficiency. I started taking 5000 IU tincture of Vitamin D3 daily. My levels are now within range.
I had higher-than-normal LDL. I started taking fish oil. I now have an LDL well within range.
I had stomach issues. I take probiotics, and my stomch feels like new.
I added CoQ10; Calcium; Vitamin B12; GNC Mega-Men multivitamin chewable (without iron); chewable vitamin C, Turmeric tincture, astragalus, and bitter melon tincture.
I add Udo's Oil 3/6/9 with Flax to my oatmeal in the am.
I'll be adding melatonin to my supplement regimen soon.
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Nobody is arguing that supplements are "useless and/or ineffective."
People pay attention when people believe supplements might be important in HIV control.
Two different topics. ;D
As to your list of supplements, you can list things 100 items long, doesn't matter. You offer no proof for the benefits of this list:
I added CoQ10; Calcium; Vitamin B12; GNC Mega-Men multivitamin chewable (without iron); chewable vitamin C, Turmeric tincture, astragalus, and bitter melon tincture.
I'll share some medical counsel given to me by my ID in Geneva. He is a research professor at Geneva University with a long career in infectious diseases, including the entire history of the HIV epidemic. He said: "stop taking CoQ10 immediately. Anti-oxidants might just well increase cancer risk, not decrease it."
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Currently i'm taking probiotics, Alpha Lipoic Acid and Vitamin D and it works for me.