The plight of the gay elderly

[Miss Philicia]

Interesting article in today's New York Times about the twilight years of gay people.  It's a bit long to post the entire thing, and I realize one must be registered (though it is free) to read the entire thing.  If you want a password try going to www.bugmenot.com to get one... or of course you can just register to read the NYTimes.com by the normal route.

Aging and Gay, and Facing Prejudice in Twilight

Even now, at 81 and with her memory beginning to fade, Gloria Donadello recalls her painful brush with bigotry at an assisted-living center in Santa Fe, N.M. Sitting with those she considered friends, “people were laughing and making certain kinds of comments, and I told them, ‘Please don’t do that, because I’m gay.’”

The result of her outspokenness, Ms. Donadello said, was swift and merciless. “Everyone looked horrified,” she said. No longer included in conversation or welcome at meals, she plunged into depression. Medication did not help. With her emotional health deteriorating, Ms. Donadello moved into an adult community nearby that caters to gay men and lesbians.

“I felt like I was a pariah,” she said, settled in her new home. “For me, it was a choice between life and death.”

Elderly gay people like Ms. Donadello, living in nursing homes or assisted-living centers or receiving home care, increasingly report that they have been disrespected, shunned or mistreated in ways that range from hurtful to deadly, even leading some to commit suicide.

Some have seen their partners and friends insulted or isolated. Others live in fear of the day when they are dependent on strangers for the most personal care. That dread alone can be damaging, physically and emotionally, say geriatric doctors, psychiatrists and social workers.

The plight of the gay elderly has been taken up by a generation of gay men and lesbians, concerned about their own futures, who have begun a national drive to educate care providers about the social isolation, even outright discrimination, that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender clients face.

[englishgirl]

philly

thanks for posting this, i have to confess i'm shocked and horrified. i had some stupid/naive/idyllic idea that maybe in their 'twilight years' people would have to sense to rise above bigotry and intolerance and instead treat people in the same manner as they would wish to be treated themselves, and with the respect they deserve.

[Bucko]

Being a hard and brittle Bright Young Thing in the dim decades of the 70s and 80s, the greatest dread I had wasn't the bomb or AIDS, it was growing old, especially growing old alone.

I think it's sad that the pioneers of Gay Rights, all those Daughters of Bilitis and Mattachiners haven't found sufficient means to live out their retirements in the usual comforts of their generation, but as they lived as pariahs until well into their adulthood, they lacked the structure and numbers to establish a sense of community to themselves.

If and when I reach my late 60s and 70s, I presume that the sheer volume of like-minded gays and lesbians will help continue the communities that we helped found and nurture. But hopes and reatity are two different things...

[404error]

"the greatest generation" my ass... 

[Matty the Damned]

"the greatest generation" my ass...

Up,

Think very carefully before you decided to shit all over the contribution and legacy of those men and women Bucko and the Philodendron refer to in this thread.

Very carefully.

MtD

[Ann]

"the greatest generation" my ass... 

Up,

Would you care to explain your post? Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick, but this feels like flamebait. I sure hope I'm wrong!

Ann

[Andy Velez]

Matty, I'm not sure that Up was referring to the same men and women who Bucko was talking about.

Tom Brokaw wrote his best-seller THE GREATEST GENERATION, about those who came to maturity and were involved in WWII. So I wondered if Up wasn't referring to them and the failure of the survivors of that generation, now in their upper 70s and 80s to respond with any compassion for fellow aging people who also happen to be glbt.

Or was I misunderstanding that, Up? Please clarify.

As Bette Davis had on a cushion in her living room, "Old age is no place for sissies." That's for sure even truer for those who have been for the most part marginalized all their lives by a het society that still denies them equal rights, as well as a gay world which to a great extent still places its highest premium on youth, beauty and for many...assimilation.

The Times article paints a pretty sad and scary picture. If there's anything positive to be read in it maybe it's the fact of the article being published. After all it wasn't that long ago that this "paper of record" wouldn't use the word "gay" and insisted on "homosexual."

 

[Miss Philicia]

I think we'll need to make an AIDSmeds assisted living facility somehow.  I hate bingo, but I'll make an exception.  Bucko can be in charge of Cuban recruitment and foreskin cleaning.

[404error]

Think very carefully before you decided to shit all over the contribution and legacy of those men and women Bucko and the Philodendron refer to in this thread.

I'm not shitting all over anyone thank you but I'm happy to be reminded that hypersensitivity is alive and well in the age of political correctness...

Tom Brokaw wrote his best-seller THE GREATEST GENERATION, about those who came to maturity and were involved in WWII. So I wondered if Up wasn't referring to them and the failure of the survivors of that generation, now in their upper 70s and 80s to respond with any compassion for fellow aging people who also happen to be glbt.

Thanks for understanding Andy.  I wasn't trying to belittle the social activism of anyone here.  I was merely suggesting that many of those who may be considered to be part of "the greatest generation" are anything but great.

[thunter34]

Great thread here, philly. 

[pozattitude]

the greatest dread I had wasn't the bomb or AIDS, it was growing old, especially growing old alone.

I feel the same way as you do, especially being an only child I have no brothers, no sisters, no nephews, no nieces.  It will be just me, myself and I.
Honestly, the thought of being old and lonely is way more frightening than being at my death bed.

Rich
(who is not afraid of being alone, but is terrified of being lonely)

[Miss Philicia]

Actually, last time I went to see my parents I went with them on a tour of one of those fancy assisted care places.  Frankly, there's so much going on at those places there's just no way you'd get lonely and bored.  I was amazed -- we even ate dinner there and the food was quite good... several courses, etc.  I guess this was a bit better than some places.  My parents have wisely planned for decades for this eventuality due to what they went though with my grandmother.  Plus they do not want my brother or I to get stuck taking care of them, and though we were not wealthy growing up we were not poor either, and they seemingly saved a bit of money and invested wisely in the stock market, so now they can afford a very nice place when they make the decision to move into one of these places.

But yeah, with my broke ass from teh AIDS I have NO FUCKING CLUE what will come of me now that I'm expected not to die.  I don't fear death, but I don't like the idea of ending my days in some flea bag shit hole.

*sigh*

... and I'm too old now to locate a Sugar Daddy.  I should have taken that one up that wanted me a decade or so ago.  $$$... Broadway producer and all that, plus he was HIV+ too.

[pozattitude]

I was merely suggesting that many of those who may be considered to be part of "the greatest generation" are anything but great.

I agree with Up, I have to say it...
The greatest generation..why?  Because they fought in WWII?  Let's not forget that while black men were fighting this war, their families were treated much in the same way Jews were treated by the Nazis, and when those  man returned home, they came back to a society that didn't even acknowledge their contributions to this war, and denied them of their human rights.  So no, I don't believe they were the greatest generation ever.

Rich

[edfu]

We're a generation behind in planning for this.  We lost a whole generation that would have done so:  The generation who came out of the closet post-Stonewall--the first generation to be openly gay in our history--was the very group of people who were decimated by the big A.  Those who were in their 20s and 30s in 1969 are the ones who are now in their 60s and 70s--if they're still alive.  We have a lot of catching up to do if we're to effectively deal with this crisis.  I'm 65, and most of my peers are no longer with us.  Those of us in that age bracket will need to rely on those who are today in their 40s and younger.    

[Matty the Damned]

I know exactly who he was referring to and why he made the reference. For my part, my original comments stand.

MtD

[Miss Philicia]

Well, he was camping on the thread so I'm sure if he really wanted to clarify his statement he could have done so by now.

[pozattitude]

I have put some serious thought about going back to school to get the education I need to work with the elderly Poz.

I'm 65, and most of my peers are no longer with us. Those of us in that age bracket will need to rely on those who are today in their 40s and younger.    

...and this is going to be a big thing from now on, thanks to meds, the senior HIV positive population will only grow and the needs of a senior POZ are not the same of an HIV negative senior.


Rich
(who went to college for all the wrong reasons)

[404error]

I had a huge post written and when I went to post it, it timed out and I lost everything.  I'm too lazy to write it all out again.  Basically, people who are 70+ are intolerant when held against the standards that apply to those in their twenties and thirties today.  Thus, it should come as no suprise that these people are intolerant of homosexuality when fifty years ago (when they would have been my age) many were in support of things like; segregation, commie hunting, keeping women barefoot and pregnant and so on and so forth...

[Oceanbeach]

There was a film on either HBO or Showtime called "If these Walls Could Talk II  In the segment with Vannessa Redgrave, her long time lover dies in a hospital and since she was not family of the dearly departed, the staff did not wake her. As the story unfolds, a distant nephew (with family) comes to take possession of the house and it's contents.  The comment is made, "Why should we take care of someone elses maiden Aunt"?  Fade to black, same house, different decade and different people.

This is my greatest fear, being old, alone and homeless. OR, being in a "assisted living" center/ old age home and never having any family or visitors. Do these people get the same quality of care as those who have children and grand children who may drop by unexpectedly at any time to visit?  I don't want to find out.  Have the best day
Michael

[komnaes]

Do these people get the same quality of care as those who have children and grand children who may drop by unexpectedly at any time to visit?  I don't want to find out.  Have the best day

I live in a society/culture that you're expected to take care of your parents/grandparents. You're supposed to live with them and take care of them when they're sick and dying. I suppose it was easier in the past as people simply didn't live that long. Right now people are living up to their 80s this system of elderly care is collapsing fast. Abuses are common and suicide rate among people over 60s are increasing rapidly.

Also because of this culture, no one really saves for their retirement much and nursing homes, assisted living centers are not popular. Since wealthy people usually have more "functioning" families (meaning only that they have the money to hire maids to take care of the elderly, large enough a home or a separate place to keep them, etc), those nursing homes are mostly for less well off families and their service quality is extremely poor.

Money is of course an issue at the end of the day, but even with reasonable saving in a place like Hong Kong, we don't have a choice. The lucky ones end up in government subsidized nursing homes, but last time I checked 80 percent of elderly died while waiting to get in one of those.

In any case I think everything is market driven to some extent - when there are more elderly lesbigay folks like us the market will catch up. I heard there are already such places in countries such as Thailand (well, mainly for expats/foreigners).

Shaun

[aztecan]

I don't know what will happen if or when I find myself elderly and in need of greater amounts of care.

I really have nobody to take on the role of caretaker. I have a sister, but I don't think she would want to be burdened by an older brother in his twilight years who is also more than likely going to be experiencing advancing or advanced HIV disease.

I guess it will be a flea bag motel for me.

I just hope there aren't too many roaches. I hate roaches.

HUGS,

Mark

[DCGUY2007]

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

[komnaes]

I just hope there aren't too many roaches. I hate roaches.

I don't know if I can make this a little bit more cheerful.. but I can try...

How about some giant mutated roaches that brought on by global warming? For whatever reasons I can't recall we give roaches a nickname in our family - "Little Armstrongs", as in, "arrruugh, there's a giant flying Armstrong landing on my arm!", screamed my sister. Somehow it makes them less fearful, somehow cuter...

For me the planning thing etc is only to give me a (false?) sense of security, somehow a feeling that I am still in control, which, of course, is not the case because no one can tell me how I will live for the last few years, months or days of my life. E.g. in this part of the world there's still a not so remote chance that we will get wipe out by a bird flu epidemic.

Big hugs to Mark

Shaun

[Oceanbeach]

Also because of this culture, no one really saves for their retirement much and nursing homes, assisted living centers are not popular. Since wealthy people usually have more "functioning" families (meaning only that they have the money to hire maids to take care of the elderly, large enough a home or a separate place to keep them, etc), those nursing homes are mostly for less well off families and their service quality is extremely poor.

Money is of course an issue at the end of the day, but even with reasonable saving in a place like Hong Kong, we don't have a choice. The lucky ones end up in government subsidized nursing homes, but last time I checked 80 percent of elderly died while waiting to get in one of those.

In any case I think everything is market driven to some extent - when there are more elderly lesbigay folks like us the market will catch up. I heard there are already such places in countries such as Thailand (well, mainly for expats/foreigners).

Shaun

Hi Shaun,

I think this scenario applies to many of us living with HIV.  We were once told we should expect to live another 5 years and jobs, savings and insurance policies went away with diagnosis.  At a later date, we began hearing undetectable and to plan to see old age (unless we get hit by a bus).

By that time, assets and possibilities were gone and meanwhile, back at the surburban style american house, funding for healthcare, support services and medications are on a frequent system of change.  There is no concrete reason to believe any of the existing systems of support will be available in any given year so the term "E word" has been utilized in many of our service organizations, meaning entitlement, which is a concept not a right.

When fresh out of the hospital from PCP, I began applying for any and all assistance programs.  I was medically disabled for life, had no money, and... federal subsity for housing "HUD, Section 8" would have made a marked difference in quality of life.  This is Los Angeles, 1996.  I was 46 and there was a two year waiting list to get on a waiting list for affordable housing.  I was finally accepted in the program to find, I no longer qualified because... I had a good year and made some money.  No further need , drop from the waiting list and move away.

Things went down hill in the new community, a Northern California community historic for retirement.  I applied for the same program in the same community to find (after being on a waiting list) that my income lever (100% below poverty level) was too high, I made $32.00 per year too much and did not qualify.  I spent the past three years here in Sonoma County fighting for RWCA funding.  I built a web site, talked to everyone who would listen and vote, disclosed my status to every newspaper and radio station in a five county region, got a lot of free press and still lost the $1.6 million per year for healthcare of our HIV persons.  I held a seat on the Commission on AIDS, participated in every subcommittee for two years and the very organizations whose funding was dependent upon such funding, failed to support my work.  Market driven? you bet... we lose services, they retain salaries.  They are in a managing scarcity economy and form new committees.  There are currently two people on the Sonoma County Commission on AIDS who actually are consumers of services.  Most of us resigned last March.

Her I am now at age 56 and can deal with the problems, issues and help find solutions but... what could happen in 5 or 20 years, is anyone guess.  Maybe, I have more in common with the poor and elderly in Hong Kong than I was aware of.  Much thanks for your post.  Have the best day
Michael
(who was 53 when the avatar photo was taken)

[jkinatl2]

note to self : break into the crypt of my father. The man who stood  up to a generation beneath him and praised his gay son.  The man who loved his wife for fifty one years. pummel the corpse.

Because that's the damned "best" generation.

[Robert]

So now we're all undetectable and expected to live long, productive lives.  Well, I'm not sure how productive they will be.  I'm also not sure of the quality. We are all on HAART now and as Jonathan has pointed out more than once, we're guinea pigs.  Who know the long-term effects of HAART?  After 30 years of putting this poison in our system, just how capable will we be? 

If only I could be a sugar daddy.  That would be the way to go.  Having some young thing hanging around the house.  <sigh>

robert

[woodshere]

I work for a social service agency that sole purpose is to assist seniors.  Some of our clients live in the most well to do areas of our city, have good insurance, financial resources and have no problem living "the good life."  However most of the ones I come in contact with are low income, live in public housing or in homes that should be condemned.  Our office is located in a public housing facility that at one time was a model for senior living with over 600 units all for seniors.  Sometime after the ADA was passed a decision was made to also place those who suffer from addictions and mental illness in the same complex.  Now only 35% of residents are seniors.  They find themselves living among drug addicts, prostitutes and the sort.  Some are subjected to abuse and exploitation, especially the first of the month when the "checks" come.  I speak with many sons and daughters who are in need of assistance to care for their parents.  I speak with seniors who are in need of care, because they have no one else to ask.  The sad fact of the matter is that we have not prepared for the onslaught of seniors.  Gay, straight, healthy, or chronically ill, the elderly, especially low-income, are in dire straights.  

Woods

[mjmel]

I do find most elderly humans to be understanding. They seem to understand the constant of living is change. What most don't understand--they fear--and can be quite stubborn in their stance and opinions. We know this is not confined to the elderly.
I consider this incident may be an isolated case of snobbery. Just maybe it was cuz I don't find the elderly condemning me in this small Ohio community. In fact, I have been surprised by their openmindedness.
Today I had a routine doc visit and while we were chatting I mentioned that I hope to see 65 yrs of age.
(being HIV+ for 17 yrs. 18 yrs.)
"You know, X, the retirement year to retire into infinity.", I jokingly said.
He said, "Mike, looking at your chart here, you can likely plan on mid-70's easily."

So now, I believe I will grow older than sixty-five. For the first time since 1989. Maybe as my wonderful animals die off I can start having gay geriatrics as home companions. We could complain about how stupid humans can be at times. Mostly I think we'd play cards and catch a little sun while gardening and watch butterflies.

"OK, who dealt the last hand?"

Mike

[bear60]

Its a scary topic. I may post more, after I think about it for a while.

[Miss Philicia]

I'll take care of you Joel.  You'll just have to fist me every day.

[bear60]

Can I bring in a fister for you?  I am not really into that.

[Miss Philicia]

SURE.  Please recruit a Dominican.

[Oceanbeach]

If only I could be a sugar daddy.  That would be the way to go.  Having some young thing hanging around the house.  <sigh>

robert

Dearest Robert,

I'm having some surgical augmentation done this year and am guaranteed to look GQ.  I won't actually be a sweet young thing but will have the appearance of.  I would require a contract including housing w/ 35 ft dock (preferably Sausalito), expense account, German made SUV and a severance package which will include medical, plus prescriptions for life.  The law firm of Hunt and Steele will be forwarding a proposed contract for your review.  Have the best day
Michael 

[Moffie65]

For fifteen years or so, my partner and I have thought about this issue, as we are planning to grow old together. 

Our solution centers around a group of investors that would sell their homes and form a corporation to buy a place to retire in.  It would give preference to those singles and couples with HIV, and would more than likely be in the country near a large city to be near a large hospital.  It would be on one level, and spread out, rather than a high rise complex.  It would have exercise facilities, including a wheelchair access pool.  It would be staffed with hot and cold running young men and women who would be on call 24/7, and would include a Nurse Practitioner to keep up with health issues.  We havee always felt that many health issues would be circumvented due to the reduction of social stress related attitudes listed above.  It would have a decent chef and accomidations for wheelchair races.  All in all, a place where we could "REMOVE" ourselves from society and establish a private and comfortable place to simply end this physical time on earth. 

How's that sound Edfu, Aztecan, Bear, and any others in the fifties and sixties generation???

Love,

[bear60]

Moffie
You took the words right out of my mouth.

[aztecan]

Hey Moffie,

Sounds like an idea to me.

I'll race ya! I'm a demon in a wheel chair.

HUGS,

Mark

Edited to add: It should be someplace without too much snow.

[pozattitude]

I'll race ya! I'm a demon in a wheel chair.

HUGS,

Mark

Mark, you are too funny.....it reminds me of my favorite Rick and Steve character..Chuck (aka RollAids).

 
Rich



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Miss Philicia]

Moffie, that's the same structure basically of the the facilities my parents are looking into.  If capitalism is the Holy Grail we've been taught it is, as HIV-ers begin to age in the upper brackets SOMEONE somewhere surely will wise up and start opening a chain of facilities.  I'd say it not have to be specifically HIV oriented, but as it would be gay a sizable amount of the members would need HIV services, among other medical needs.

Of course, for those of us with ZERO assets (*cough*) we will be living on the sidewalk outside of your fancy retirement community.

I've GOT to get back into the work force, but I now have a giant seven year hole on my resume that is rather difficult to explain in an interview.  I never expected to still be alive frankly.  Plus I'd be starting back at the lowest level, and not where I last left off so I'd probably be making around the same amount of money I take in with SS.  Sad really, plus I'd be shelling out for medical expenses which I don't now.

I swear, I really feel like I'm fucked.  Fucked with HIV, and fucked even more for still being alive due to advances in treatment.  I'd really not care so much if I was infected in the past couple of years as opposed to having been infected in my 20's.

///vent

[pozattitude]

I need me a sugar daddy so I can retire at this place...

A WELCOMING PLACE FOR GAY RETIREMENT
Historic hotel becomes Barbary Lane, based on popular 'Tales of the City' series

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/17/REGU1QE8SI18.DTL

it looks like retirement will be a privilege of the wealthy, what the hell am I supposed to do 


Rich

[Dachshund]

How's that sound Edfu, Aztecan, Bear, and any others in the fifties and sixties generation???

That sounds nice, but would you welcome those with meager assests. Those that will be living (barely) on social security?

[bear60]

Quote Doxy:That sounds nice, but would you welcome those with meager assests. Those that will be living (barely) on social security?
.......................................................
Well, my model for this sort of community starts with forming a corporation which can tap into federal funding.  With the proper grant writing and funding in place, a facility that can accomodate HIV positive elders ( I have no objection to SENIORs ) could be established. What we need is a good lawyer, a good accountant, and a good CEO.
As a gay SENIOR, I am not going back in the closet, and would love to have some bear chasing power bottoms preparing my meals rather than those usually not very communicative  food service workers in nursing homes.  I'll be in charge of the hiring....ha !!!

[Moffie65]

Philly and all,

Yes, this is what I think you all are speaking of, and yes, it already exists.

http://www.rainbowvisionprop.com/

I will now try to explain what I was speaking of in my first post.  Lately I have been trying to keep my posts brief, because when I don't I tend to type stuff that seems to piss people off.  

This dream we have is not for the wealthy, or we would reserve our spot in the retirement home in Santa Fe New Mexico above.  We only have assets in the home, and that is it, not unlike many here.  I live on disability, and my partner makes a salary that is far from adequate, and he is now 65 with no retirement possibility.  

We would all take what we have, and funnel it into a location, most likely in Southwest, (cost and weather) and then what the corporation of investors would do is set up the place to accept people like Philly, and others of you here who would work for sweat equity to become part owners on paper.  All of our incomes would have to be funneled into some sort of system to support the whole, and for that I would gladly give up at least 50% of my income.  The staff would have to be paid, so this corporation would have to be a non-profit.  Under 501 (c) 3 status, we would seek out someone in the corp. who was capable in writing and applying for grants to sustain the facility and the people in it.  Most of this money would go for staff and operating expenses like utilities, food, recreation, therapists, hot and cold running boys and girls, and on and on.  If there is a membership with a vested interest, (on site owners) money becomes very much easier to acquire from the present grant system of the government.  So this would allow those of you who have not been able to purchase a home to be able to come in and be a part of this venture.  Of course as the first owners die off, there would always be room for new investors who want to sell their homes and invest in the place to move into and take up participation.  Only thing is, this also requires very clear and legal guidelines which would also come from those with a legal background who happen to want to be a part of it.  Or, other legal people from the community.  I know a pair of lawyers in San Francisco who would set this up for cost, due to their commitment to helping people with HIV.  

I hope this might clear up a few things, because my partner and I are not by any stretch of the immagination wealthy or even rich, we simply own our home and that is where it ends.  We still don't clear enough money to retire, or even to save anything monthly.  The bills seem to grow and absorb everything that is coming in.

So those of you who felt left out and seem to not fit into this scenario, well, just the opposite would be the case because when you factor in grant monies from the Government, then it really works much better, because it would require the corporation to seek out people in dire straights; which after all was the seed of this dream of ours.  We have watched far too many people move into their cars, and end up penniless, so part of our work has always been to try to keep this from happening.  Probably why we also don't have a load of cash today.

I hope this clears things up a bit, because I was trying to picture a missionary work rather than a comfort zone for the wealthy.

Love,

P.S.  Great minds Bear.  While I was typing, Bear summed it up in shorter terms.  Let's hear it for the FUZZIES!!!

[leatherman]

I swear, I really feel like I'm fucked.  Fucked with HIV, and fucked even more for still being alive due to advances in treatment.

Ain't that the truth.  I was nearly dead at 30; and now 46 is just around the corner. Every time the doc tells me that I'll probably make it to my 60's I'm just not sure if I should be happy about it or cry about it. 

But I do have to say that being fucked (and not in the good way. get your minds outta the gutter LOL) is still better than being dead. 

[Dachshund]

I hope this clears things up a bit, because I was trying to picture a missionary work rather than a comfort zone for the wealthy.

Thanks Tim, I knew you would never leave your brothers and sisters hanging.

[edfu]

Oh, Moffie, what a wonderful, wonderful idea.  The complexity of working it out would be daunting, however.  I plan to meditate on it to help me get to sleep at night; it might give me pleasant dreams.  I'm ready to sign on.

Love or what you will...

Ed