Toss the salad: a reflexion on a clean lifestyle

[milker]

No this is not an off topic thread.

I have seen a few threads about germs, cleaning hands, cleaning the food, washing the bananas, wearing gloves when you go to the gym, never take a shower in the gym, etc etc..

Well I peed and didn't wash my hands, I didn't wipe out the handles on the gym gear, I got the trash out, I touched numerous dusty things, and.. I tossed the salad I'm going to eat tonight with my bare dirty hands.

Am I going to die of horrible bacteria infection? I doubt it. I've done this all my life (I'm French, remember?), and I believe that my body's defenses against bacteria is much better than people that scrub 10 times a day. We have seen children in the US that are getting all sorts of diseases because they've been so clean their body cannot react to a simple bacteria without causing havoc.

The only thing I changed since I tested positive is that now I wash fruit. I never did before.

Your thoughts?

Milker.

[thunter34]

Well I peed and didn't wash my hands, I didn't wipe out the handles on the gym gear, I got the trash out, I touched numerous dusty things, and.. I tossed the salad I'm going to eat tonight with my bare dirty hands.


Your thoughts?

Milker.

Remember not to eat at Milker's house.

[milker]

Remember not to eat at Milker's house.

LOL

And I was starting a serious thread...

[allopathicholistic]

I believe that my body's defenses against bacteria is much better than people that scrub 10 times a day.

I would suggest to everyone not to obsess over perfection. Just remember how mmmmm good clean feels physically and mentally and you'll improve automatically. The more this state of mind is with you, the more natural and automatic things become. Clean is good. OCD is bad

[milker]

I was thinking about Moffie's post, and other posts I saw like cleaning a banana, which I would never do  I clean pears, grapefruit but i would never clean a peeled banana 

Milker.

[Miss Philicia]

People clean bananas?  I missed that insanity.

And you clean grapefruit?  wtf... no way.  You don't eat the peel.  Pears make sense.

[milker]

People clean bananas?  I missed that insanity.

And you clean grapefruit?  wtf... no way.  You don't eat the peel.  Pears make sense.

Oops I meant grapes, not grapefruit! Yes, there was a post (not just one) about cleaning bananas after peeling them.

Milker.

[Miss Philicia]

How absurd.  I'm afraid to ask who was advocating this.  Was there some sort of logical thinking behind this advocacy?  Or was it similar to the recent board infatuation with all things amyl nitrate?

[timmeh]

I think it makes sense to wash your hands after using the bathroom, having sex and handling garbage. I don't recommend using those antibacterial liquid soaps as they kill the good bacteria as well as the bad. I like using Dr Bronners soap as it smells nice and minty and you can use it for many things.. 

I am amazed at the amount of times I notice that people don't wash their hands after taking a dump..

Hepatitis is not pretty... 

[Lis]

as a woman that has had this shit for 21 years..

I find it repugnant that you mock moffie... you mock him.. you mock me..

i live in a rural area.. water is ?  Ive had several OI's .. but i manage to care for a family of 4 .. please.. if you find the dark side dark.. dont hate... we ALL wish to be like you again..

milker.. you are a sweet man... your heart is HUGE... please dont hate..

lisbeth

[milker]

No Philly.. not related to our friend.

timmeh I do wash hands after "heavy bathroom work". What I'm wondering is if people that have been living a "very clean" life are more prone to bacteria infection when they are hiv poz, compared to people like me that overall is clean, but has never been crazy about washing hands everytime he handles something dirty.

Milker.

[milker]

as a woman that has had this shit for 21 years..

I find it repugnant that you mock moffie... you mock him.. you mock me..

i live in a rural area.. water is ?  Ive had several OI's .. but i manage to care for a family of 4 .. please.. if you find the dark side dark.. dont hate... we ALL wish to be like you again..

milker.. you are a sweet man... your heart is HUGE... please dont hate..

lisbeth

uh  Moffie's post made me think about my behavior with germs, this post is in no way an insult about what he said, it's actually a reflexion on what he said, because it struck me. Lis, you took my post completely wrong. It's Moffie's post that inspired me and made me think.

Milker.

[edfu]

Moffie's post about cleaning bananas was NOT about cleaning the banana fruit that is eaten; it was about cleaning the outside skin of the banana before peeling it, on the possibility that the banana peel came into contact with an undesirable substance, like fecal matter.  If that did happen, it's rather difficult to keep the fruit of the banana from coming into contact with the hanging peels--the way most people eat a banana.  The point is that the banana peel itself is possibly dangerous, not the banana fruit that is consumed, and the reasoning behind it is no different from washing any fruit whose skin you are actually consuming.   If you clean a pear, there is also some justification for cleaning the exterior of the banana.  If you ever visited a banana plantation in Central America, for example, you would understand how unhygienic conditions can be there.

I know two PWA's in NYC who died of complications from cryptosporidium from NYC tap water.  Once contracted, it can be extremely difficult to cure, especially if one's CD4's aren't high enough.  You just end up sh****** your brains out--it's literally an unending bout of diarrhea.  I will not drink NYC tap water if I can help it, only bottled water or boiled tap water.  I use the boiled water to make ice cubes as well.   And the bottled water must be either filtered to one micron or treated by reverse osmosis.  NYC's reservoirs, in upstate, are notorious for having undesirable run-off from dairy farms, which means, in plain terms, cow s***.  There has been much publicity about the troubles with NYC's water not being properly filtrated for all dangerous elements.   

[Lis]

what? NYC has yucky water?    EEEPPPP


thanks edfu!

[milker]

I actually didn't recall Moffie's posts talking about bananas, I was thinking about other posts. I find it ridiculous that my post has concentrated about bananas but hey.. whatever.

What is a PWA?

I drink tap water, it's interesting because the tap water from the bathroom tastes good but the one from the kitchen tastes bad It's all about pipes I guess ? Because the water comes from the same source.

You use boiled water to make ice cubes? I make ice cubes with tap water

Milker.

[fondeveau]

Wash Milker's salad before tossing it?  Scrub his banana?  This is sexual innuendo, right?

[edfu]

I'm not sure, Milker, if you're baiting me, but a "PWA" is a "person with AIDS."  I thought it was common usage.  Well, it used to be, at any rate, in my youth. 

The taste of water has no significance.  NYC's tap water is often touted as being superior in taste, but it is not filtered for cryptosporidium.   And yes, after boiling the tap water, I let it cool and then refrigerate it.  The cooled and/or refrigerated water is then used to fill my ice-cube trays, among other uses.  If you're ever visited Mexico, for instance, you would be familiar with what's called Montezuma's revenge.  Americans are advised not to drink the water, but they often forget that the ice cubes melting in their Cokes and tequila drinks are also the same water.

[Lis]

a PWA means.. A person with AIDS..

and yes you boil the water to not get micro-organisms... I have the filter right through the fridge (x2 WITH the filters thank you)

[milker]

I'm not sure, Milker, if you're baiting me, but a "PWA" is a "person with AIDS."  I thought it was common usage.  Well, it used to be, at any rate, in my youth. 

For some reason people think i'm making fun of this. I'm not. I never heard this PWA before, sorry.

So that's interesting you're saying that the taste is not a concern, but the taste of water from the kitchen is very different from the taste of what I get in the bathroom. Could it be related to germs in the tubes? Should I be concerned? I've seen the plumbing and it's like 40 years old!

Milker.

[edfu]

If the taste of the water is different in your kitchen and your bathroom, it is due to problems other than cryptosporidium, and it's probably due to the plumbing in your building.  Crypto has no discernible taste--it's a microorganism--and originates in the original source of the water, like a reservoir; it isn't caused by plumbing.  If you're drinking directly from the tap, I would suggest running the water a few minutes first, which I know runs contrary to natural-resource preservation recommendations.   Other than that, I suggest you research elsewhere for plumbing problems and water quality.  Crypto is the main issue, because it is so dangerous for those with deficient immune systems.

[StrongGuy]

You can get Cryposporidium and Giardia from other sources - not just tap water. And New York City water is monitored constantly for parasite levels -- though I would never tell anyone not to boil/filter if it makes them feel more comfortable.

Those parasites are also in streams and lakes and all over the country/world too in much higher levels. Further, Brookylyn College did a study on NYC tap water that asked the question, "Should we filter New York City Water?  If yes, then why?"


Here is the conclusion from the study:

Although there were outbreaks of Cryptosporidiosis in Carrollton, Georgia and Milwaukee, Wisconsin the general population need not worry because more advanced methods have been produced to determine the levels of Cryptosporidium and Giardia that might be present in New York reservoirs.  Also, the Clean Water Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act and the Nonpoint Pollution Program have been established to secure the quality of water as well as to show the public what the government is doing to protect consumers. However, if immuno-compromised persons still want to purchase specialized water filters as a precaution, even though their is no solid proof that immuno-compromised persons are at a greater risk of getting cryptosporidiosis and giardiasis, the prices range from $120 to $650.  For those who go hiking or camping, boiling water for about a minute before using it is advised.  Those who drink tap water and are concerned about becoming ill with the ingestion of Cryptosporidium and Giardia, although there has never been an outbreak of cyptosporidiosis and Giardiasis in New York City, can also boil their water or purchase specialized filters. Otherwise, there is not a need for the government to filter New York City's water because the size of the parasites are so small that even purification systems might not help in destroying these microbial contaminants

Here is the link to the study:
http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~scintech/water/Alink1.html

And I'm not saying people shouldn't filter or boil if they want to (especially if your CD4s are really low) - or that Cryposporidium and Giardia aren't nasty buggers that can pose a threat -- or that people haven't gotten sick from the tap water even if it hasn't been documented in NYC.

It's just for me, personally, the odds and the risks of getting it from NYC tap water are extremely low (plus it tastes too yummy not to drink a cold glass). As always we each make our own decisions, but I'm not getting paranoid about filtering my water when the risk to me is almost non-existent (and you really need to boil the water to be sure because the buggers can likely slip through the filtration systems).

As with all things in life - to each his own!

Mike
(who loves tap water and rues the day he washes his banana)

[milker]

I always let the water run for a minute because it's brown for a few seconds when I start the bath. So I guess the pipes are very old. The bathroom, toilet, kitchen are fine. I don't drink out of the toilet so I can't say  but the taste is definitely different in the bathroom compared to the kitchen.

I recently brought a subscription to water delivery, with a dispenser. I'm very happy with it. But still, my original question was about day to day life living with germs, and overreacting because you're hiv, or reacting because you're hiv?

I did change my behavior in regards to fruits, salads, after reading some posts, but still, I will eat raw eggs and raw meat, and will not wash my hands every minute. I'm wondering if, because I've never really paid attention to this before, if my body is more aware and doesn't care, compared to someone that has been extremely careful and in return may be more prone to infections.

Milker.

[edfu]

http://www.gmhc.org/health/nutrition/factsheets/cryptosporidium.html

[Miss Philicia]

Here's a more extensive list of studies/reading on HIV and Cryptosporidium.  Personally I've not heard much warning on this since the early days of my diagnosis but like I said, I've filtered water in my apartments for 14 years.

Mind you, I'm not in some sort of manic state over this.  If I'm too lazy to pull out the filtered water pitcher to wash down some pills AND too lazy to even grab a glass, I'll stick my head under the kitchen faucet and take a swig.

I don't wash bananas either.

I do know living in NYC for 15 years and going through two bouts of wasting that when they first screen your stools this is one thing they are looking for.  I find it highly dubious that they've not had a single case there.

Like most things you need to worry about this more when in the low range CD4 cells.

[Cerrid]

I don't wash bananas either.

Me neither. But I wash my hands after peeling a banana. Of fecal matter I haven't heard of, but of large concentrations of pesticides which stick to the banana skin and hence, on the hands.

[bear60]

I think there are some merits to the washing or cleaning of things......like washing your hands after being out of the house. Or washing fruit before peeling it.
I had amoebic dysentery while in the Peace Corps and let me tell you, it is not something you want to mess around with.

[aztecan]

Hey Milker,

I think the answer to your question is it depends ( no pun intneded considering the references to giardia, etc.)

I have at least 22 years of living with the bug under my belt (literally  ) and I still eat sushi, sunnyside up eggs, etc.) But, my CD4s were also 1,332 last time I checked.

If my CD4s were lower, say less than 500, I would eschew sushi, my eggs would be fully cooked, etc., Its a matter of what your body could fight off should there be a problem.

Therein lies the difference for us hi-fivers. It is more of a consideration of what your body can handle rather than OCD.

It is rather a balancing act.

Were I to contract giardia or cryptosporiadosis or salmonella, etc., at this time, it would certainly be unpleasant, but probably not life threatening. If my CD4s were 432, that might not be the case.

I believe the level of scrutiny needed regardng food-borne pathogens must escalate based on the immune system of the person.

Now, do I think that we are overdoing it here in the U.S.? You bet!

People are so germ-phobic, they are doing themselves and the environment an injury by trying to kill off everything that may live outside our bodies.

I wonder how many people realize you must wash your hands for 20 minutes with most over-the-counter antibacterial soaps for them to be effective. Anything less and all people do is kill off a few of the weaker germs or create super germs that cannot be killed.

I personally don't buy antibacterial soaps, dishwashing liquid, laundry detergent, etc. Plain old soap does the trick just fine and doesn't create super germs.

My standard is moderation in all things. I clean things regularly, but try not to obsess about cleanliness.

I do wash all of my fruit, including bananas, for the above-mentioned reasons. Just an FYI, regarding grapefruit, oranges, etc., while it is true you don't usually eat the peel, you do handle the edible part after peeling the outside, right? Or, if you slice it in half, the knive just carried whatever was on the outside of the peel right through the center of fhe fruit.

That's why I always give mine a wash.

Is this making any sense whatsoever? I started Sustiva and wouldn't bank on making sense right now.

HUGS,

Mark

[milker]

Is this making any sense whatsoever? I started Sustiva and wouldn't bank on making sense right now.

It does! Thanks, I think I would pay more and more attention as my CD4 declines, as I said I started washing fruit which I never did before (unless I could see dirt, but it was about dirt, not germs). My mum said I was eating small rocks when I was a baby, I wonder if that helped

Milker.