POZ Community Forums
Main Forums => Living With HIV => Topic started by: marky on February 02, 2007, 03:09:55 pm
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Both my Partner in life and I have been experiencing small amounts of VL every time we get our blood work. Nothing much.. but around 60-400 copies/ml. We were always taking 100mcg of Selenium but after reading a new study about using 200mcg of selenium to reduce small VL amounts, we upped ours to 300mcg. Wow..... we both went undetectable! Our doc (one of the finest in South Beach) said he is starting to recommend to all his patients to add 200 mcg of selenium....in all cases. He feels there is alot of benefit, low cost (selenium is cheap) and viritually no side effects. What's not to like? Anyway... I know some of you have "blips" or even low low VL's (under 500) ... this may be the trick to get it Undetectable as it was in our case and backed up by recent good studies.
Cheers!
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Hey Marky,
How long had you been taking it?
And, may I ask which meds you and your partner are on?
Thanks,
Wesley
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Been on 300 mcg Selenium for 4-5 months now.
My meds:
Viramune
Epivir
Viread.
His meds:
Epzicom
Reyataz(boosted with norvir)
Viread
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I am going with 600 a day. Hell, it so cheap,why not?
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Quote: " I am going with 600 a day. Hell, it so cheap,why not?"
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Hey, I dont know you but I care enough to ask: is this safe?
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I couldn't find any selenium at the grocery store the other day. Can I only get it at a vitamin store?
Also, is there any danger in taking too much?
thanks,
brian
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Hey,
I bought Selenium at Target, pretty cheap if I remember... and yes, you can take too much.
Drew
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Hey Brian,
Walgreens carries it. I just bought two bottles of 100 count 200 mcg for 7.99, 2nd bottle was free w/ their special on Nature's Best.
I've been taking it about a week and a half and have noticed improved energy.
There is another thread going on with articles and links about the studies etc.
http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=3355.0
Hopefully, this thread will remain on what experience people have had. I'm gona keep taking it till my next labs and see if there is any improvement.
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Any online links to buy this you know of??
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This topic was visited recently at http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8189.0 (http://forums.poz.com/index.php?topic=8189.0). But yes, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. From wikipedia: "Although selenium is an essential trace element it is toxic, if taken in excess. Exceeding the Tolerable Upper Intake Level of 400 micrograms per day can lead to selenosis[4]. Symptoms of selenosis include a garlic odour on the breath, gastrointestinal disorders, hair loss, sloughing of nails, fatigue, irritability and neurological damage. Extreme cases of selenosis can result in cirrhosis of the liver, pulmonary edema and death[5]...Selenium deficiency is relatively rare in healthy well-nourished individuals...The Dietary Reference Intake for adults is 55 micrograms per day."
Paracelsus, the father of toxicology states-- "Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison". I've been undetectable since May 2004 with no relapse since then, without taking plain selenium supplements (but the concentration of selenium in my One-a-Day is 105 ug --and I have trouble taking my One-a-Day since I've had the same 250-pill bottle for the last 2 years). So if you're take selenium, please avoid ODing (going beyond the 400 ug TUI level or the level specified by your physician/nutritionist).
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You can take too much. It is toxic above a certain level, I think they do not recommend more than 400mcg a day.
I take 100mcg a day, plus I eat a handfull of brazil nuts which are packed with selenium, and I've done so since befoe I took meds. To be honest, I don't know that it did anything for my vl which went from 30,000 to over 500,000 pre-med, but I think it may have helped keep my cd4's around the 20% mark for a long time, before crashing to 13%.
Since meds and keeping up the selenium my cd4's have gone from 13% to 26% in 9 months which seems like a good climb from the little I understand.
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Hello Marky,
Glad to hear that things are going well, for you and your partner. I have been on the additional Selenium supplementation for several months now (200mcg) I also get 20mcg) in my multi Vitamin (Centrum).
Take care----Ray
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I have been on selenium for about a month now. I started after my first two lab draws so will be interesting what my labs look like in the next few months.
While I started on 200 mgs on my own, my naturopathic physician recommended 600mgs and I am doing fine with that. The hiv virus apparently destroys the selenium in the cells so we would be lower in this trace mineral than what the norm would be in the population, hence the higher dose. My hiv doctor is okay with the selenium as well.
I will also be interested to see how others are doing who are taking Selenium. I have a good friend who is on it and while his CD4 never gets above the low 200s his VL is undetectable.
Rick
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Good point Rick. Mind if I ask what's your VL? It's possible that the physician may adjust your selenium consumption as you reduce your VL towards undetectable...towards the norm. Also, just for clarification, did you mean 600 ug (ug=micro-grams...the u is actually Greek letter mu)? 600 mg=600,000 ug, which would mean you're popping in 6,000 or 3,000 pills of 100 ug or 200 ug each day, respectively. I blame these vitamin companies for the confusion. They use mcg=micro-gram and mg=milligram.
But that aside, here's a fun homework project for everyone. Rick mentioned trace mineral which should be found in trace amounts, hence it's a micronutrient (as opposed to a macronutrient). Looking at the back of your vitamin bottles, focusing only on the minerals (not vitamins), can you determine which minerals are macro- and micro-nutrients? I'm looking at my One-a-Day: Men's Health Formula and the macros are calcium, magnesium, and potassium (3 total). Zinc, selenium, copper, manganese, and chromium (5 total) are micros. There are a total of 7 macro- and 10 micro-nutrients. Make your own conclusions (if any) about this project.
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After reading your post, I checked my daily multi (GNC Ultra-Mega Gold) and it contains 150 mcg of selenium. I was happy to see that and feel I am good with that amt.
Thanks for the info
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Those are some great numbers for both you and your partner marky!
It will be interesting to see how your future results pan out...
I'm on 200mcg a day and have been for 2 months now.
Think its too soon to tell with bloods but here are my latest results:
Sept 2006:
CD4 - 287 (30%)
VL - 4927
Dec 2007:
CD4 - 351 (33%)
VL - less than 400! (which was a lovey surprise!)
Been positive over 7 years. No meds.
There seems to be more and more studies coming to the forefront about the beneficial effects of selenium in hiv+ folk. Its been pretty big talk in Greece for a while now. As long as people keep within the guidelines cant see it doing any harm as complementary therapy while studies are throwing up such positive results...
According to the Physicians Desk Reference (PDR) for Nutritional Supplements, the "Lowest-Observed-Adverse-Effects-Level" (LOAEL) for selenium intake is 900mcg. However the general maximum recommendation level for adults in most supplement literature I have seems to be 400mcg.
By the way, with reference to what Steve (Fearless) said, my UK nutritionist advised me that although brazil nuts are indeed naturally high in selenium, they lose a lot once they've been picked, transported and stored.
Another point worth mentioning is I also take 400iu of Vitamin E which synergises with selenium. They are both antioxidents that help to prevent/slow down aging and hardening of tissues through oxidation.
Heres to more great numbers all round!
Melia :)
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Terpie--still figuring my base numbers. My December VL was 46,000. Dont know the results of my January labs yet, which was only my 3rd draw. I am not on meds at this point. I take 600 milligrams of selenium BTW. I also take vitamin e also which aids in the absorption of selenium.
If this is any indication of how things seem to be working, I started working out at a gym almost a month ago. I had lost a lot of upper body mass from being so sick a good part of last year (acute hepatitis B and a nasty opportunisitic infection for two months to top the year off.) I've gained almost 10 lbs and it seems to be going where I want it to ;D I'm not claiming its due to the selenium but at least that has got to be part of the mix that is working.
Rick
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That's great Rick, good to hear you're health is heading in the direction you want it to. I gained weight too since this past Thanksgiving (8 lbs) and I'm not too happy with that because it's not healthy weight, hehe.
Also, can you PLEASE provide the brand name and where you get your selenium supplements? Or is it prescribed? The reason I ask is because the Upper Intake Level is 400 mcg=400 ug=400 micrograms=0.4 mg=0.4 milligram. Please check the bottle again if you can, because 600 milligrams (which equals 600,000 micrograms) is 1,500 times the recommended level in humans! I've checked Vitamin Shoppe http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/search/en/query.jsp?q=selenium&x=0&y=0&intsource=main (http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/search/en/query.jsp?q=selenium&x=0&y=0&intsource=main) and GNC http://www.gnc.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2108491&cp=2167069.2108499 (http://www.gnc.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2108491&cp=2167069.2108499) and the maximum concentration of selenium at both places is 250 mcg=250 ug=250 micrograms=0.25 mg=0.25 milligram (remember, 1 milligram=1,000 micograms). If you are indeed taking 600 "milligrams" and NOT "micrograms", PLEASE consult another physician ASAP. That's acute selenosis and you need immediate medical attention...
From Wikipedia.com http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium):
"[Selenium] Used widely in vitamins and food supplements, in small doses (typically 50 to 200 micrograms per day for adult humans). Some livestock feeds are fortified as well."
Yes, I take supplements too and a strong supporter for alternative therapies. Selenium seems to help a lot of people (although based on past postings, not everyone benefits from it). It's called a supplement for a reason, which is to make up for potential deficiencies in one's diet. Just please don't overdo it, because selenium is a non-organic mineral that can't be broken down but only excreted. Selenium (and other minerals such as iron, copper, etc.) are bound to and activate certain key enzymes in the body. Concentrations past the point of saturation (when all active sites of enzymes are occupied by the mineral) will result in unbound minerals floating in the system until processed by the liver. Being HIV+, our liver is already going through hell as it is trying to remove the toxic meds we take in (that's one reason why your liver enzyme levels are measured each time you have a blood draw, to make sure you're liver isn't overworked to potential damage). But, the saturation point varies from person to person and depends a lot on the person. Being only 5'2", I try to stay well below the guidelines, but someone bigger than me (which is probably everyone in this forum) will definitely have a higher saturation level.
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In my original post I forgot to say one more thing... my CD4% went up alot. I don't remember the exact number... but it was also a nice surprise according to my doc. The only thing I changed was adding the Selenium.....so it will be interesting to see if this continues... which most studies suggest it should.
Melia: In my mulit vitamin I get Vitamin E also... so it's good to hear the synergy between selenium and vitamin E.
Marky
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Congrats Marky on the CD4% increase. I've plotted my CD4 #'s, %, and VL since day one in 2003 till this day on excel (yes, I'm a dork). I suggest everyone keep some sort of record on their own in case one were to switch docs or need immediate documentation (from experience, my newest doc contacted my former one to ask that my records be faxed over, but there was no response...luckily I had my handy excel spreadsheet of all my #'s and vaccinations, etc).
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Hey
I read this! There's a news story about it on aidsmap here:
http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/2571C611-2069-48F8-ACAB-A21FE0BD28E0.asp
I take a multivitamin and a thing called immunace. They total up to 205 mcg of selenium, which I guess is okay. The one thing I was wondering, and that was mentioned in the trial, is that they were using a brand called Selenomax, because "other" brands have more binding gunk (technical term :P) in them that reduces absorbtion. Anybody have an opinion on this?
In addition do you guys in the US know how lucky you are? Why are vitamins so expensive in Europe and especially the UK? Can anybody help with this?
Lurve, Matt.
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Terpie-- (putting on glasses and looking at the small print on the bottle ;D) Yep the tablets are 200 mcgs---not mgs. Brand name: "Bi-Mart" which is a NW based, employee-owned, chain membership disccount store. Looking at other supps--some mgs, some IUs, some CFU's. Since I am also taking other supplements (prescribed by my naturopathic physician who communicates with my hiv MD) I can't be sure what may or may not be helping but time will tell if the overall effect is going in the right direction.
Rick
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Selemium in no way can replace a drug regimen; I took it for years for some reason I read that wasn't related, then quit cause I read about adverse effects of too much. To the point: perhaps I was diagnoised late with HIV partically due to this suppliment(and not getting tested as frequent any longer at the time); but if it kept my blood levesls up and I wasn't sick??? Oh well, it all worked out in the end. Any good vitamin with minerals has a fair dose of selenium; I was temped to run out and buy some till I read my mega vitamin bottle ingrediants. There seem to many of these types of little tings that can help us if used in moderation and accordingly, but I have taken the same combo of HIV drugs for 5 yrs now without adverse effects and my T-cells still slowly climb as I remain undetectable...
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My multi-vitamin, which I've been taking forever, has 20 mcg, I just read.
Sidenote: the reason your bottles say "mcg" instead of "ug" is because "ug" when handwritten with the Greek letter mu is now considered a dangerous abreviation in medicine. It's on the Joint Commision's "Do Not Use" list. When handwritten, it can be mistaken for "mg" and that's one way that medical errors happen.
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wrong thread.
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I take 2 200mg of selenium a day and my VL went from 14,500 to 1700 in 1 month.
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I was taking Selenoprecise from Pharma Nord a Danish brand, but I changed it for vitamin worlds selenium because of the difference of price. 60 pills of Selenoprecise is 12 euros and a bottle of 500 pills of vitaminīs world selenium is 19 dollars. Maybe there is a great difference in quality. The smell at least is different. I canīt tell you about the results because I started taking selenium before treatment so I canīt compare. It is the only supplement I take.
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I am from the Philippines...
I am also taking a MULTIVITAMINS bought from the USA.
It contains 200mcg of Selenium. I take it since November 2006 almost daily (although there are days that I forget to take it)...
my CD4 cells went up from 452 last June 2006 to 588 this March 2007.
i dont see any reason why it went up except taking SELENIUM...
I believe it helps!
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I started getting my vitamins, nutrients, liver detoxificants, etc, intravenously from a rather homeopathic doctor who happens to specialize in chelation therapy though. He offers the intravenous treatment to a small group of POZ patients, and after starting this in November, which included 1000 mcg of Selenium, I went undetectable for the first time ever. However, this coincided with a slight change in regmien. I switched one of my meds from Viread to Truvada. And within 7 months, I was below 60 VL, but as should be expected with inital undetectable VL, my t-cells went down slightly from 385 to 335.
Good luck.
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The smell at least is different.
I'll second that.....Selenium is right up there with Valerian Root for "Most Obnoxious Odor When Opening Bottle..." :o
John
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Hi dying young i am malambing living here in manila. I'im really encouraged by your way of dealing with your condition. How I wish to see you in person to talk about things related to this epidemic. I am also living with it, and i knew it just recently. How can I contact you? I want to belong to a support groups if we have here in the philippines. I also want to be active in educating people and to live the rest of my life meaningfully. Good day!
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Hey Malam!
Welcome to the Forums. You might want to start your own thread to tell us about yourself and ask any questions. You can start a new thread by clicking on the "New Topic" link at the top of the Living With forum page.
MtD
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Selenium is right up there with Valerian Root for "Most Obnoxious Odor When Opening Bottle..." :o
Funny. I always thought the title of the 'worst smell in bottles' applies to my 'room odorizer'. ;D
And let me just add something useful to this thread: I'm also taking selenium, 200 mcg/d as selenomethionine. My HIV doc advised me that selenium as sodium selenite is not fully absorbed by the body, especially when taken together with vitamin C. Both are useful however, thus it's better to take them a few hours apart.
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I believe the vitamin shop has really good deals on their brands, in addition to, name brands. http://www.vitaminshoppe.com
NAC has got to be the stinkiest...funny when you have an open bottle of the stuff and you say "oh smell this, its g-r-e-a-t!" Ah the reaction.
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Both are useful however, thus it's better to take them a few hours apart.
Gasp. I take selenium as part of a multivitamin pill, so C and Selenium are in the same pill >:(
Milker.
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Something else I found helpful was B-12 (I take selenium in my multi vitamin too). D
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Gasp. I take selenium as part of a multivitamin pill, so C and Selenium are in the same pill >:(
Milker.
Well, perhaps you should rethink this strategy or move to another product. Even the manufacturers of sodium selenite pills warn about the malabsorption in the presence of vitamin C.
If you want to do some reading on the bioavailability of vitamins and minerals, try this nice summary (http://www.drinkables.com/jmf.html). It's taken from the Journal of Medicinal Food 1998, so I'd think it's free of commercial interests. It's all very interesting, but here's what they specifically say about selenium supplemented as selenomethionine vs. sodium selenite:
Selenium is included in Table 1 because it occurs in foods, mainly in the form of seleno-methionine (i.e., an organic rather than an inorganic form). Baker's or Brewer's yeast naturally converts selenium into selenomethionine and is widely used in supplements, although yeast-free selenomethionine-containing supplements are also available. Selenomethionine is absorbed like methionine, by active transport; its selenium is not immediately bioavailable but becomes so after enzymatic degradation.
In some products, selenomethionine is replaced by sodium selenite or other inorganic selenium salts. Inorganic selenium salts are also added to yeast, which is then offered as "organic" even though it does not contain selenomethionine.
Selenomethionine is compatible with vitamin C, but selenite is reduced by it to the bio-unavailable elemental selenium (Schrauzer and McGinness, 1979). The use of selenite in solid or liquid nutritional supplements should therefore be discouraged; also, the need for accurate labeling of supplemental selenium products is apparent.