Supplements

[newbernswiss]

Just wondering what type of dietary/Vitamin supplement does everyone take.

[dixieman]

Lots! myoplex protein, selenium, l-cartinine, CLA, fish oil mega 6, yerba mate, green tea,bentonite clay and a beauty regiment lol... and my favorite coffee enemas... get me going with the tough get going!

[blondbeauty]

Selenium, L-Glutamine and Alpha Lipoic Acid...but I forget most of the days.

[vokz]

A good diet mostly covers my needs, so just fish oil and a generic all-round multivitamin and mineral supplement for me.

[komnaes]

and my favorite coffee enemas... get me going with the tough get going!

One is tempted to ask what is coffee enemas in aid of?

[risred1]

I take this multi, which is the number 2 seller for all supplements on Newyorkbuyersclub.org

AMNI - Added Protection Without Iron from Albion Labs, a division of Douglas Labs. http://www.douglaslabs.com.

Added Protection III (AMNI) Each bottle, 180 tabs, a 30 day supply. This superior, highly bioavailable formula, with cutting-edge mineral delivery forms by Albion Laboratories, supplies over 30 basic vitamins, minerals, trace elements and other nutrients, including beta-carotene, vitamin K and boron. Added Protection III is unique in that the vitamins are coated to separate them from minerals which can oxidize and weaken them (seen sometimes as black spots on tablets). Beta-carotene gives the tablets their pink color. Added Protection III is extremely bioavailable since it can be taken in up to six separate doses per day if one desires, and the tablets are documented to disintegrate within 30 minutes following digestion. In addition, the minerals found in this multivitamin are obtained from Albion Labs, which produces chelated forms that are the most bioavailable (easily absorbed) in the industry, according to some studies. Chelation means that the mineral is embedded in amino acids, in this case, between two glycine molecules. The dosages of the minerals are also designed to provide optimal quantities but not too much, since too much can be toxic. In addition, the chelated (and other forms) are designed to limit side effects experienced by sensitive individuals. If you experience any stomach problems, nausea, diarrhea or constipation once starting this regimen, you may be experiencing a reaction to this formulation and should stop to see if the problem clears up. Recommended dose: 6 tabs/day (2-3x/day—or more often—with food). Store cool, dry, away from light.

Six tablets provide:

B-Complex Vitamins:
 Vitamin B1 (thiamine mononitrate) 100 mg
 Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) 50 mg
 Niacin (a form of Vitamin B3). 40 mg
 Niacinamide (a form of Vitamin B3) 150 mg
 Pantothenic Acid (B5, d-calcium form) 400 mg
 Vitamin B6 (pyridoxine HCl) 50 mg
 Folic acid 800 mcg
 Vitamin B12(on ion exchange resin) 100 mcg
 Biotin 300 mcg
 Choline (bitartrate) 150 mg

Other Vitamins:
 Vitamin A (palmitate, water soluble) 10,000 IU
 Beta Carotene (added Vitamin A activity) 5,000 IU
 Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, corn-free) 1200 mg
 Vitamin D-3 (fish liver oil) 200 IU
 Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 400 IU
 Vitamin K-1 (phytonadione) 60 mcg

Minerals:
 Calcium (citrate ascorbate) 500 mg
 Magnesium (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 500 mg
 Potassium (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 99 mg
 Copper (amino acid chelate) 2 mg
 Manganese (aspartate-ascorbate complex) 20 mg
 Zinc (amino acid chelate) 30 mg
 Iodine (kelp) 150 mcg
 Chromium GTF (bioactive ChromeMate form) 200 mcg
 Selenium (amino acid complex) 200 mcg
 Molybdenum (amino acid chelate) 150 mcg
 Vanadyl sulfate (vanadium amino acid chelate) 200 mcg
 Boron (aspartate-citrate) 2 mg

Other Ingredients:
 PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 50 mg
 Inositol (B-complex growth factor) 50 mg
 Bioflavonoids (from citrus fruit) 100 mg
 Methionine (DL-form, amino acid) 62.5 mg
 Cysteine (L-form, amino acid) 250 mg

[milker]

Multivitamin tablet, L-carnitine, O-3 complex, Green tea extract, L-glutamine, Alpha lipiod acid, selenium, N-Acetyl glucosamine and CM4.

Milker.

[Suntropic98]

Here is what I take: 2000mg of EsterC, 1000mg of cod liver oil, 400iu of vit E, 800 mg of AL Carnatine and 1 vitamin B complex 1000mg. I also drink 8 oz of monavie a day. In addition, (if you want to call them supplements) I take anywhere from 1400mg -90000mg of test a week for a period of 3 months at a time.....maybe 4 months this time. I also take hgh, jintropin to be exact. 7 ius a day for 6 week periods. Thats how you become a rock star, boys. Seriously. Time for some of you to man up. 

[Ann]

Some interesting facts about jintropin...

...and quite a few about HGH in general

Ann

PS - just in case you didn't bother to click...

The defendants include Lei Jin, who is the CEO of Genescience Pharmaceutical Company (“GenSci” for short), located in Changchun, China.  GenSci is alleged to have manufactured Human Growth Hormone under the brand name Jintropin (jin-TROH-pin).  Jin is alleged to have used Web sites and e-mails to market Jintropin for illicit use in Rhode Island, in other U.S. states, and in other countries.

//

There is no doubt that the driving force behind the smuggling and illicit use of performance enhancing drugs such as HGH is false vanity – the desire of some to become artificially younger or stronger through the dangerous use of pharmaceuticals.  This illicit use of HGH and steroids is endangering the health of many who are on a fool’s errand.  Today’s indictments should send a strong message that we will pursue and prosecute these rings just as aggressively as heroin and cocaine rings, because the danger they pose is just as real. Even though their storefront is the internet, rather than the street corner, the people who engage in the smuggling and distribution of these substances are drug dealers, plain and simple, and we will treat them accordingly.

(first article linked to, dated Sept 07)

[Dachshund]

Man up boys.

Steve Michalik a former Mr Universe, knows only too well the dangers of steroid misuse. He had won 22 titles including Mr USA, Muscleman USA, and Mr America without resorting to steroids. But following a trip to Europe he succumbed to the attraction of bigger muscles and started anabolic steroids. By the time he was in his mid 40s, Steve had suffered liver failure, had a heart attack and a stroke. He spent time in a mental institution trying to come to terms with what he had done. Now he promotes steroid-free body-building.

As a legacy to his dalliance with steroids, Steve Michalik has been left with a testosterone level of a 12 year old girl and testicles the size of peanuts.

[Suntropic98]

Ball shrinkage is genetically related, any bodybuilder will tell you that. Sure, excessive AA or GH usage may contribute but based on personal exp my balls are the size of pecan shells if not sightly bigger. Some women know me as captain long dong. Go figure.

[Cerrid]

Well, looks ain't everything.

A good diet mostly covers my needs, so just fish oil and a generic all-round multivitamin and mineral supplement for me.

The same for me. Added minerals are selenium (1 x 200 mcg) and calcium (2 x 500 mg).

[Ninja1987]

  does supplement work in treating this disease in some way?

[risred1]

It would be a mistake to view Supplements as Treatment for HIV.

I view supplements as countermeasures to the side effects of HIV. Supplements may help replenish hard to obtain nutrients that HIV has been associated with depleting. Antioxidents may repair or assist the body in dealing with inflammatory responses the body my take against HIV. Supplements may provide support metobolically, which may help energy levels of a person affected by HIV.

HIV is after all a viral infection that for most the body cannot beat. So the idea is maybe supplements help stabilize or maintain body function and support the immune systems work against the virus longer than without supplementation.

But there is little doubt that if your infected, regardless of supplements that you take, at some point one will need medications to suppress the virus. Supplements at best can push that date back, but hard to say how long.

And as tribute to those who can maintain a healthy lifestyle through excellent Diet and Exercise, there are those who think the best thing is to life a disciplined healthy lifestyle is even more beneficial that anything you can take in a bottle. There is probably much to be said for this as well.

   

[sacinsc]

Tried a bunch of crap for the immune system, omega acids, heart stuff, etc. Well my numbers went down to the point I got put meds, who hoo! So I tossed them. Now I take a one-a-day multi vitamin and selenium as my doc said that was all I needed. Occasionally I take some B stuff in the morning for energy. I got really into the supplements but they didn't work. Ask your ID doc about them!

[risred1]

That of course is your experience, therefore your projection that it is a bunch of crap is relative to your point of view. If you were taking supps to "treat" HIV, you and most folks out there looking at Supps are taking them for the wrong reasons.

I don't know what supplements you were taking and for what you were trying to accomplish. You state that they don't do anything is relative to what you wanted them to do. You do state that you are also taking a multi with selenium and you also note that you take B supps. So if its a bunch of crap, then why are you taking these supplements? Because a good multi vitamin gives you broad coverage for a less than perfect diet. Selinium has been shown to boost CD4, and B vits can help ones energy levels.

My point about supplements are that they don't for the most part do much to substantially fight HIV. Even if you can Boost CD4, VL may not be similarly impacted. What I believe that value of supplements is to deal with Side Effects of HIV, Metabolic Issues caused by HIV, and Inflammatory response the body produces fighting HIV.

Antioxidents are not going to stop HIV. Antioxidents can help with Liver function and Neuropathy issues. An article on Carnintine's affects on PN has been documented on Aidmeds not too long ago.

Other supplements such as ECGC may actually have a boosting affect on CD4 as reported with Selenium. If CD4 is is significant marker in one immune systems response to HIV, then my recent boost in CD4 is a good thing, which the supplements I'm taking to boost CD4, Selenium and ECGC, hopefully is having the intended affect. Of course my VL did not change because of my supplementation. That is an important factor in looking at supplements.

HIV's behavior is already unusual as for many the often many year gradual decline of one immune system doesn't fit the normal disease progression as one anticipates. Why HIV progresses in some so gradually and faster in others seems to be just a Viral behavior unique to HIV that while theories  abound, creates such variabilities from person to person.

So while this forum is about reflecting upon our personal experiences with HIV, Meds and the like, projections that what is a failure to some will be a failure for all is overreaching.

I have spoken to my specialist about supplements. His response is, he's a doctor and a scientist. He's looking for science to tell him what has efficacy and what doesn't. Stuff that is not studied is something he really can't comment on. But he did say that of all his patients, I'm taking the most supplements, and he also said, whatever I'm doing, keep it up. In his practice it is unusual to see CD4 count increase after a couple of floundering years in the 360-415 range.

I'm not advocating Coconut oil. All I'm trying to do is as I outlined. Improve the quality of my life by dealing with Side effects such as HIV induced Diarrhea  - glutamine, probiotics. Liver Enzyme issues with Alpha Lipoic Acid, NAC and Carninine and as a preventative for PN and potentially Aids Dementia effects. Ginsing MSM and a good Multi to combat HIV induced fatigue. And ECGC and Selinium in an attempt to boost CD4.

So I'm going to take the other side. It is not crap. You mileage may vary.

[sacinsc]

My ID doc said that there is no proven beneficial factors given to taking all of these supplements. Most of what you are taking is most likely being flushed down the toilet is what he told me. He said the only proven benefit is the mental. I was taking Vit C, D, E complex, B (complex, 6, 12) Iron, fish oil, flax seed oil, green tea extract, echinecea and goldenseal, selenium and a multivitamin. Since most of the 100% recommended daily allowance of these was already given in the multivitamin your body just pisses out the rest. Ergo, why waste the money when scientifically none of this have a real leg to stand on, and the bottle even says that! But if you feel that it does help you, health is all relevant to what you think, by all means go for it.

[risred1]

Frankly I will offer some information that supplements perhaps are not just, either a "happy" pill or placebo.

For example, Carnitine was one of those supplements that was thought of as a good idea, but proof or a study showing efficacy was lacking.

But now what do we have with Carnitine?

Acetyl-L-Carnitine Promising for Neuropathy

October 1, 2007
In a recent article in the journal CNS Drugs, Michael Youle, MD, a noted HIV specialist at London’s Royal Free Hospital, claims that acetyl-L-carnitine (LAC), an over-the-counter amino acid supplement, is a promising treatment for a condition known as peripheral neuropathy. Characterized by alternating numbness, tingling and pain in the feet, legs, hands and arms, peripheral neuropathy is nerve damage that can result from the use of certain antiretroviral medications, predominantly Videx (didanosine) and Zerit (stavudine). There are currently few treatments for neuropathy, and none are highly effective.

In the article, Dr. Youle reviews several small studies that have explored whether taking LAC can protect people from developing neuropathy or treat people who have already developed it. One early study found that people who took LAC (1500 mg twice a day) showed evidence of both nerve regeneration and a reduction in painful symptoms. A somewhat larger study, published early this year, found that LAC was significantly better able than a placebo to alleviate neuropathy symptoms.

Many people with HIV have developed resistance to a number of antiretroviral medications and must use drugs like Videx and Zerit to build an effective antiretroviral regimen. Physicians need an effective method to prevent neuropathy from developing, if possible, and to treat it when prevention is not possible, writes Dr. Youle. He concludes that LAC shows promise in this regard and deserves larger studies to prove its effectiveness.

----

Now I agree that over supplementation is of little value. Loading up on C and E and B Vits will not do much except go down the drain. But not all supplements fall into this classification of Vitamins or minimum RDA values.

So here is the issue that I put to you, if you use glutamine to control HIV or Med based diarrhea, do you view Glutamine as a supplement? Because Glutamine is well understood as being able to provide relief in this area. And I don't think your going to get 5 grams of glutamine a day from food.

In this situation where obviously we sit on two different sides of this fence. I'm targeting specific supplements to manage side effects, metabolic issues, and offset inflammatory response.  I am not stating Supplements can substantially improve ones own Immune response to HIV nor claiming that Viral Load is impacted by supplements. As studies suggest now that selenium may be worth supplementing, I'm hoping down the line more proof about ECGC may prove beneficial. All I can offer on that front is an improvement in my CD4 count which my doctor was impressed by.

I really don't mind per see that you think supps are a waste of money and effort. I just don't think its quite that simple in light for the couple of examples I've provided, and hopefully the scope of what I believe supplements can address.

And I'm not so sure its about agreeing to disagree. Although what choice do we have? If studies continue to show efficacy of supplements, I would hope that we would welcome stuff that might help us out.

[madbrain]

My ID doc said that there is no proven beneficial factors given to taking all of these supplements. Most of what you are taking is most likely being flushed down the toilet is what he told me. He said the only proven benefit is the mental. I was taking Vit C, D, E complex, B (complex, 6, 12) Iron, fish oil, flax seed oil, green tea extract, echinecea and goldenseal, selenium and a multivitamin. Since most of the 100% recommended daily allowance of these was already given in the multivitamin your body just pisses out the rest. Ergo, why waste the money when scientifically none of this have a real leg to stand on, and the bottle even says that! But if you feel that it does help you, health is all relevant to what you think, by all means go for it.

Some vitamins (C, B) are water soluble and get pissed out, so you need to take them again every day. Others (D, E) are fat soluble and stay in your body much longer, so you can take them less frequently. The RDA are recommendations for the general population. If you are deficient in one of the vitamins or minerals, your body will actually need to take more than the RDA. But there is no way to tell how much you need and which one without a test. I had a vitamin D deficiency as shown by a blood test. The only reason the doc did that test was that one of my psych meds (tegretol) is known to deplete vitamin D. For 6 months I took 300% of the RDA. My serum vitamin D level hardly budged ! Then I switched to 3500% of the RDA for 3 months, and finally I had a vitamin D level in the normal range. I went down to 725% of the RDA recently, and I may be going back down to 200% soon if my next level hasn't gone back down too much. I am going to get this vitamin D level tested every time with my other HIV labs since I'm taking the tegretol long term.
When I go for my next annual physical (soon), I will ask my doc to run tests for the other vitamins and see if he is willing to do that. That way I can tell if I'm overdoing it on supplements and which ones I actually might need the most.
Yes, the supplements cost money, but it's all relative. I ask my doc to write prescriptions for the supplements so I can use pretax money to buy them from my healthcare flexible spending account at work. He has not been willing to do it for every single one based on the (lack of) available evidence that many of them help, but he was definitely fine with prescribing a multi, selenium, and vitamin D.

FYI, my daily supplement list since august was :

2 softgels green tea (total 300 mg EGCG)
2 softgels omega-3 (2400 mg fish oil)
2 tabs ester-c 500 mg
1 cap alpha lipoic acid 200 mg
1 tab vitamin B12 1000mcg
1 tab vitamin B6 100mg
1 cap vitamin B5
1 cap coq10 200mg
3 softgels vitamin D 2000 IU
2 tabs IP6
4 tabs phosphorus
1 tab selenium 200
2 caps probiotics
2 tabs calcium 500mg
2 caps enzymes
1 cap acetyl l-carnitine 500
1 cap boron
1 tab molybdenum
1 cap n-acetyl cysteine 600
1 tab garlic
1 cap beta carotene 25000 IU
1 tab centrum multivitamin
1 tab b-complex
1 cap quercetin
1 softgel vitamin E 400
1 cap zinc 15mg
1 tab magnesium 250mg
1 cap l-glutamine 500
1 tab biotin 600
1 cap manganese
1 cap chromium 200
2 tabs fiber-choice
(weekly : 50000 IU vitamin D)

Note that the total daily cost of these was a bit over $2.
Believe me, it's not easy to take all those 45 at once in the morning as I was And that's just the supplements, doesn't include the 5 more of (non-HIV) meds. Better drink lots of water and eat some food with it. But it boosted my energy level for a while. I am still on that regimen for the most part except I take less vitamin D. I decided it was just too many, though. After I run out of most, I will switch to a better multivitamin than centrum, Now foods adam superior men, which willl allow me to take only about 1/3 as many supplements and keep taking most of the same stuff.
I am definitely curious to see what my levels will be for many of the nutrients at physical time - some of them are tested standard at Kaiser like calcium, magnesium and phosphorus, and I know my doc wants to check my selenium levels too.

[sacinsc]

I think the final say should be what your ID doc says about. None of these supplements and vitamin regimes have been approved by the FDA here in the states. Therefore any studies given by the companies are suspect since they have not be documented.

The thing is, if it makes you happy to take these things then do it. I am not saying they are useless. Just remember that any benefits that you see may be from one thing or another, because there is no scientific proof to support the supplements claim. I started out taking them all and saw no benefits coming from it. You take and you see benefits. You take them I don't. We are both the better for it

[madbrain]

I think the final say should be what your ID doc says about. None of these supplements and vitamin regimes have been approved by the FDA here in the states. Therefore any studies given by the companies are suspect since they have not be documented.

The thing is, if it makes you happy to take these things then do it. I am not saying they are useless. Just remember that any benefits that you see may be from one thing or another, because there is no scientific proof to support the supplements claim. I started out taking them all and saw no benefits coming from it. You take and you see benefits. You take them I don't. We are both the better for it

Well, it certainly makes me feel like I am doing something for my condition, since I am not on meds any my ID doc advised me to stay off them at the time. I sure would like to be more confident that the supplements are beneficial. The pills are not free, and taking them takes time. So far, my labs went in the right direction (both CD4 and VL) and I felt much better overall in the last 3 months since taking them than in the preceding 3, so I will keep taking some. I can't say how much is placebo effect or some other cause, and how much is really caused by the pills, and which ones. I certainly wish I could. I can't run a double blind study on myself.

The FDA does not approve supplements, but it still regulates them and the claims that can be made about them based on its review of significant scientific evidence.

Since we were talking about egcg green tea, here is one thing they had to say about it : http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/qhc-gtea.html