Author Topic: At what level of intimacy do you disclose? (Read 12725 times)

bs4dd · « **on:** March 16, 2011, 10:53:07 am »

I've just had my first experience of "getting to know someone" since testing poz a little over a year ago.
I've seen much discussion of when to disclose one's status in the dating game.
But we had a very quick first date, that was nice, and then a passionate goodbye kiss, open mouth, French, etc, whatever.
Is this something that should not have happened without disclosure?
I know the science of risk associated with open mouth kissing, and I believe it to be a non-issue (i.e. I don't think anyone should worry about getting HIV through kissing).
But in kissing another person, without disclosure, I'm making that decision FOR them, when they are the one at risk. And that feels wrong. Yes the risk is infinitesimal, but shouldn't that be the decision of the person at risk?
Did I cross a line by letting this contact happen without disclosure?
So what do you guys do? Do you disclose before ANY physical contact happens? At what level of physical intimacy is one ethically bound to disclose?

woodshere · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:21:13 am »

I am not going to disclose for kissing. Would you disclose to someone if they drank after you or you shared a dessert. To me same thing.

bs4dd · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:47:54 am »

Quote from: woodshere on March 16, 2011, 11:21:13 am

I am not going to disclose for kissing. Would you disclose to someone if they drank after you or you shared a dessert. To me same thing.

To me, it's the same thing too.
But to a neg person who, for all I know, might have just had dental surgery or bitten his tongue, and who has NOT spent the last year learning everything he can about HIV and getting super informed about these kinds of issues.....it might not be the same thing.

woodshere · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2011, 12:01:24 pm »

In the end, the reasons one discloses and when is entirely up to the individual.

bs4dd · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2011, 12:05:42 pm »

Quote from: woodshere on March 16, 2011, 12:01:24 pm

In the end, the reasons one discloses and when is entirely up to the individual.

Well........YEAH..........and this individual is trying to figure out his reasons. I never thought it wasn't entirely up to me (who else would it be up to?? lol)

GSOgymrat · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2011, 12:29:05 pm »

Bs4dd, back when you were HIV- when would you have wanted a date to disclose?

leatherman · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2011, 12:37:42 pm »

Quote from: bs4dd on March 16, 2011, 12:05:42 pm

and this individual is trying to figure out his reasons.

you might want to do a SEARCH or two on this site for "disclosure" and "dating+disclosure" and read through the numerous threads about this issue. A lot of people have talked a lot about this issue for a lot of years.

personally, I've either sero-sorted and chosen other pozzies to be intimate with; or, since I'm very out about my status in general, I have disclosed in some of the very first introductions. Being upfront about it all though does require a bit of self-confidence.

However, there are reasons too for disclosing later rather than earlier. I think if you'll read through some of the previous discussions you'll see that disclosure is a very personal issue and each time must be comtemplated for the factors in each situation. (factors such as what is the other person's "need to know"? or What would happen with a "bad outcome"? or How well could you handle the possible rejection or anger?)

There is no one good answer as each situation is going to have so many different factors. I think reading through some of those other threads would give you a sense of different strategies and reasons that could help you in deciding your own thoughts and principles about this issue.

bs4dd · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2011, 01:40:14 pm »

Quote from: GSOgymrat on March 16, 2011, 12:29:05 pm

Bs4dd, back when you were HIV- when would you have wanted a date to disclose?

Very good question!
I think I probably would have wanted someone to disclose before kissing me like that (out of ignorance to be sure, but still).

Joe K · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2011, 02:29:23 pm »

Quote from: bs4dd on March 16, 2011, 01:40:14 pm

Very good question!
I think I probably would have wanted someone to disclose before kissing me like that (out of ignorance to be sure, but still).

You either accept that you cannot get HIV from kissing, or you do not. It seems you logically believe that kissing does not transmit HIV, but emotionally you seem unable to believe in the science. When you comment that the guy you were kissing may have had blood in his mouth, which exposes him to nothing, because you are the poz one. Unless YOU had blood in your mouth and copious amounts at that, you were also not exposing him to anything.

I sympathize with the moral dilemma you face and I suggest that you decide on what you are comfortable with, in terms of disclosing and then make rules that work for you. I always disclose my status, but only if there is going to be intimate personal contact, including bodily fluids. I have never disclosed before a kiss, because I know the science is sound. I also assume, whether right or wrong, that in this age, people should know how to protect themselves and act accordingly.

I think, that with some time, you will become more comfortable about disclosure, but never let anyone pressure you, into doing something that goes against your moral compass. You appear to be a decent guy, who is concerned and responsible in terms of not exposing others, but that does not relegate you to become celibate. I think of disclosure, in terms of my future with the person in question. However, you might want to check your local or state laws, in terms of the responsibility for disclosure. Some people think you can get HIV from being spat upon and there are some really strange, but still legal laws on the books.

Personally, I would suggest you think about what you are comfortable with, regarding disclosure and certainly read the other threads on this topic. It's a struggle that we all have and in time, you will find a comfort level with disclosing, so just take your time. You are not endangering anyone by kissing them.

WillyWump · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2011, 03:29:23 pm »

I would disclose before a kiss. If during the first date they came at me with puckered lips I would turn my head and maybe kiss them on the neck, or something. Then I would sleep on whether I thought this was a person I would want to pursue further relations with and if so i would disclose on the next (2nd date).

-Will

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:05:00 pm »

Quote from: WillyWump on March 16, 2011, 03:29:23 pm

I would disclose before a kiss.

That's such a "Barbara Please" it's almost not worth uttering. Do you disclose before shaking someone's hand too?

mecch · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:06:25 pm »

More considerations:

1) Check local disclosure laws, if any.

2) Its 2010. Everyone including the general population should know you dont trasmit HIV from a french kiss. So if all your considerations lead you to decide to french kiss, or do any other safersex contact for that matter, you are morally fine. If it backfires down the road cause the partner freaks and would have wanted disclosure, its either a teachable moment, or maybe someone not for you anyway, or whatever, but you still were activing responsibly. (If the answer to point 1 is there are not legal requirements to disclose).

3) Consider if you are undetectable or not and add that to your considerations in deciding. Its somwhat illogical considering in P2 we have decided kissing is not a risk, even if detectable.

Finally I agree just do what feels right for you and the other person and dont sweat it so much, as long as P1 is cool.

WillyWump · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:18:48 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 16, 2011, 04:05:00 pm

That's such a "Barbara Please" it's almost not worth uttering. Do you disclose before shaking someone's hand too?

Par for the course you are jumping to conclusions. It seems you are implying that I believe HIV is spread by kissing? You Fail.

I would not kiss before disclosure purely out of respect for the other person. Afterall the scenario is a first date, I would know very little about this person and his views and or knowledge about HIV, if in fact the person knows nothing regarding HIV (and perhaps believes HIV is spread by kissing) I would not want to get into the "OMG you ASS, why didnt you tell me you were HIV before you kissed me?" type thingy. etc..

Mary please.

-W

woodshere · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:44:54 pm »

I am really amazed at this discussion. We all know the science on this, we are not putting anyone in danger. If the person I kiss freaks out if he learns I am poz because he doesn't know the facts, I really can't imagine ever having any kind of relationship with that person. This is 2011 gay men especially should know the facts and if they don't it is not my fault.

WillyWump · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:48:17 pm »

Quote from: woodshere on March 16, 2011, 04:44:54 pm

freaks out if he learns I am poz because he doesn't know the facts, I really can't imagine ever having any kind of relationship with that person.

Right, and I would rather not have kissed him prior to that "Freak out"

hope_for_a_cure · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:49:21 pm »

Quote from: bs4dd on March 16, 2011, 10:53:07 am

Did I cross a line by letting this contact happen without disclosure?

No. Kiss away dude!

newt · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2011, 06:17:42 pm »

Quote

Yes the risk is infinitesimal

There is no risk.

Disclosure if there is substantial risk, yes I get that, but a kiss is a kiss and he might not like you next week cos of your hitherto undisclosed iTunes collection, in which case do you want him having deeply personal information about you that he may share with others?

I have no doubt you will do the right thing at the right point. Some people will have ridiculous anxieties, some people will be cool, and some will be somewhere in between. You can't say who will be what. THIS IS NOT YOUR ISSUE.

So I would consider the right point before you have sex at some point. People develop their own strategies. Me, I like to wait til they's in bed, cos if they's gonna run its more of a level playing field (both being naked) and I like the kick, but over coffee is good cos it doesn't carry the risk of violence in your intimate personal space.

- matt

Edited 4 missing verb

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2011, 06:34:59 pm »

Quote from: WillyWump on March 16, 2011, 04:18:48 pm

Par for the course you are jumping to conclusions. It seems you are implying that I believe HIV is spread by kissing? You Fail.

I would not kiss before disclosure purely out of respect for the other person. Afterall the scenario is a first date, I would know very little about this person and his views and or knowledge about HIV, if in fact the person knows nothing regarding HIV (and perhaps believes HIV is spread by kissing) I would not want to get into the "OMG you ASS, why didnt you tell me you were HIV before you kissed me?" type thingy. etc..

Mary please.

-W

Obviously things are done differently in TexASS... either that or you haven't had a single date in the past year since getting teh AIDS.

CaptCarl · « **Reply #18 on:** March 16, 2011, 07:34:18 pm »

When I was single, I didn't disclose fr a kiss. I disclosed when it was obvious we were headed in the direction of sex. Someone did get upset once years ago. And the following histrionics made it clear to me that this man was unsuitable for anything, even a mild friendship. The facts are out there, if someone is so addicted to drama that they will ignore facts in order to stage a public hissy fit, that's fine. They only discredit themselves, and further reinforce that staying away from them is, as Martha Stewart would say, "A Good Thing"

I detest Drama Queens.....

CaptCarl

surf18 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:20:59 pm »

this is a good topic. i personally do not disclose. but if i put myself in the shoes of me seven months ago when i thought i was neg i m sure i would think differently than i do now about the risk. we all know there is no risk as this is what we do now, but a neg person even gay neg who is nt around this virus is proably ignorant on the risk.

woodshere · « **Reply #20 on:** March 16, 2011, 08:43:41 pm »

Quote from: surf18 on March 16, 2011, 08:20:59 pm

but a neg person even gay neg who is nt around this virus is proably ignorant on the risk.

Sad after 30 years that people gay or strt are ignorant regarding HIV transmission.

WillyWump · « **Reply #21 on:** March 16, 2011, 09:28:37 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 16, 2011, 06:34:59 pm

Obviously things are done differently in TexASS... either that or you haven't had a single date in the past year since getting teh AIDS.

Blah. This has nothing to do with Texas, and everything to do with how I disclose. Afterall it is up to each individual to choose how they do so. Actually it's been about 7 months since I had a date, and even then they were poz.

Quote from: woodshere on March 16, 2011, 08:43:41 pm

Sad after 30 years that people gay or strt are ignorant regarding HIV transmission.

It is sad. and a quick perusal of the AMI threads is evidence of the state of knowledge.

-Will

leatherman · « **Reply #22 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:02:22 pm »

Quote from: surf18 on March 16, 2011, 08:20:59 pm

but a neg person even gay neg who is nt around this virus is proably ignorant on the risk.

sadly it's always been that way with most diseases. many people just don't pay attention to illnesses that don't affect them or their immediate families.

I've seen this issue a lot lately as I have been in conversations with state legislators and have learned how woefully ignorant they are of any HIV issues - including prevention methods, basic HIV education, and the ADAP program - especially, during this budget dabating time, why ADAP is less costly than hospital care. These better-educated more-mature people who should be informed enough to make adequate funding decisions seriously lack any understanding about HIV and it's implications (though it's been a budget item for nearly 30 yrs!). But they're not the only ones lacking understanding about HIV. On the other end of the spectrum (less-educated and less mature), the rate of unplanned teenage pregnancies is another example that shows how little many sexually active people think about HIV - much less STDs or pregnancy.

It would be nice if we could say that everyone understands HIV and the transmission of this virus, but as legislators are right now debating on whether it's time to get rid of abstinence-only sex "education" in America programs (support the "Repealing Ineffective and Incomplete Abstinence-Only Program Funding Act of 2011"), I don't think we can make that kind of assumption yet. I think we still need to assume that most people we meet know nothing about HIV or it's transmission.

Quote from: woodshere on March 16, 2011, 08:43:41 pm

Sad after 30 years that people gay or strt are ignorant regarding HIV transmission.

and it scares me some to think that with all these states not only cutting ADAP, but also cutting HIV education and prevention programs, that in the future this situation (this lack of knowledge across the spectrum) will only worsen. A lack of any education about HIV coupled with the loss of free condoms (through agencies like Planned Parenthood) sure won't make things better.

Hellraiser · « **Reply #23 on:** March 16, 2011, 11:36:39 pm »

Disclosure isn't about you, it's about the other person. You know all the facts and are coming from a place of knowledge. The other person might want to know and be reassured that kissing a positive person will not infect them. Besides Will wasn't telling you how to do it, just how he does it. I disclose really early and educate if necessary. If someone isn't interested after that then there's really nothing I can do to change their mind, nor would I want to even try.

tednlou2 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2011, 12:31:01 am »

If I were dating, I would be concerned about all these prosecutions that seem to occur on a weekly basis now. If prosecutors are willing to bring charges for spitting, then I could see where kissing without disclosing would be next. The prosecutors would just look at the "experts" who claim there is a theoretical risk from deep french kissing.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2011, 12:35:17 am »

Do you disclose when you let a dinner companion sample something off of your fork in a restaurant? If not, why not?

Hellraiser · « **Reply #26 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:39:50 am »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 12:35:17 am

Do you disclose when you let a dinner companion sample something off of your fork in a restaurant? If not, why not?

I disclose to someone I'm going to a romantic dinner with because down the road it may lead to something more. I wouldn't want them to feel misled or deceived and I would like to rule out anyone who might find my serostatus a dealbreaker. I do not disclose to people who I never have any romantic or sexual involvement with because it's none of their business. When did you become so dense?

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #27 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:51:59 am »

Quote from: Hellraiser on March 17, 2011, 01:39:50 am

When did you become so dense?

About the time the majority of you lost all sense of logic. Care for any more insults this evening or should I wait until I have my coffee in the morning?

Hellraiser · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:55:03 am »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 01:51:59 am

About the time the majority of you lost all sense of logic. Care for any more insults this evening or should I wait until I have my coffee in the morning?

I do apologize I had a rough day, but to me it seemed like you were attempting to set up a place were your point of view would be valid and ours would be invalidated. In reality we all admit that there is no right and wrong, everyone discloses in a different manner and at a different time. Sorry if you took it as an insult, philly.

skeebo1969 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 17, 2011, 02:16:52 am »

At what level of intimacy do you disclose?

After breakfast.

komnaes · « **Reply #30 on:** March 17, 2011, 04:10:13 am »

Quote from: Hellraiser on March 17, 2011, 01:39:50 am

I disclose to someone I'm going to a romantic dinner with because down the road it may lead to something more.

A "romantic dinner" before sex "down the road"? I thought this practice was abandoned since Mr. Darcy met Elizabeth.

Oh well..

Dachshund · « **Reply #31 on:** March 17, 2011, 07:30:53 am »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 01:51:59 am

About the time the majority of you lost all sense of logic. Care for any more insults this evening or should I wait until I have my coffee in the morning?

Girl it boggles the mind, but I doubt very seriously the girls are disclosing before the first appetizer hits their table at Applebee's.

woodshere · « **Reply #32 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:34:31 am »

Quote from: Dachshund on March 17, 2011, 07:30:53 am

Girl it boggles the mind, but I doubt very seriously the girls are disclosing before the first appetizer hits their table at Applebee's.

Oh sure they do, it's between "Our specials tonight are....." and "Care for anything from the bar".

Hellraiser · « **Reply #33 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:22:18 am »

Just because no one's been going through y'all's cobweb riddled nethers doesn't mean I'm not getting any.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #34 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:23:49 am »

Quote from: Dachshund on March 17, 2011, 07:30:53 am

Girl it boggles the mind, but I doubt very seriously the girls are disclosing before the first appetizer hits their table at Applebee's.

Oh, I'll have an order of mozzarella sticks and, by the way, my t-cell count is "4" and I have Hep C.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #35 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:25:14 am »

Quote from: Hellraiser on March 17, 2011, 10:22:18 am

Just because no one's been going through y'all's cobweb riddled nethers doesn't mean I'm not getting any.

Fine girl, put up or shut up and let's see a picture of how FAB.U.LOUS you look.

denb45 · « **Reply #36 on:** March 17, 2011, 10:26:23 am »

Quote from: Hellraiser on March 17, 2011, 10:22:18 am

Just because no one's been going through y'all's cobweb riddled nethers doesn't mean I'm not getting any.

I don't think a lot of you are getting any

go get some, life is to dam short

thunter34 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 17, 2011, 12:29:19 pm »

I must be a real heartless bastard because at no point in my AIDS history - not even when I was first diagnosed - did I ever even think about disclosure for a kiss or coffee.

You had to at least start trying to put your hands down my pants.

I've known since years before even coming out - like since the mid to late 80's that there was absolutely no health risk to a kiss.

And if the person I was with freaked out at that, I wouldn't be worried about what they were thinking. I'd be wondering how I could have spent this much time with someone that stupid and not seen it before now.

And then I'd thanking my lucky stars to lock the door behind them as they left.

wolfter · « **Reply #38 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:41:16 pm »

I guess we got a wide range of answer. Everything from before shaking hands to until after breakfast.
I choose to wait until it gets so hot that it no longer matters to him at that moment.

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #39 on:** March 17, 2011, 01:46:46 pm »

I only disclose when diamond rings are involved. Everything else is just fair game. And nobody ever said that life is fair, Christina.

denb45 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 17, 2011, 02:01:49 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 01:46:46 pm

I only disclose when diamond rings are involved. Everything else is just fair game. And nobody ever said that life is fair, Christina.

Miss P said he wanted jewelry, so get out your credit cards now

if you want some

and if your in debt don't go away mad, just go away

Dachshund · « **Reply #41 on:** March 17, 2011, 03:31:36 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 10:25:14 am

Fine girl, put up or shut up and let's see a picture of how FAB.U.LOUS you look.

Oh I don't doubt the truck stop Tina's are getting any, I just doubt they're disclosing.

CaptCarl · « **Reply #42 on:** March 17, 2011, 07:39:13 pm »

Quote from: thunter34 on March 17, 2011, 12:29:19 pm

And if the person I was with freaked out at that, I wouldn't be worried about what they were thinking. I'd be wondering how I could have spent this much time with someone that stupid and not seen it before now.

And then I'd thanking my lucky stars to lock the door behind them as they left.

What's that sound? Why it's the sound of Tim hitting the Nail right square on the head!!!

Life is too short to spend it in the company of uneducated Douchebags......

CaptCarl

Miss Philicia · « **Reply #43 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:45:51 pm »

I still want me some diamonds.

denb45 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 17, 2011, 09:27:26 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 08:45:51 pm

I still want me some diamonds.

Would you just settle for some nice city Ghetto BLING

I'm on a fixed income darling

CaptCarl · « **Reply #45 on:** March 17, 2011, 09:33:40 pm »

Quote from: Miss Philicia on March 17, 2011, 08:45:51 pm

I still want me some diamonds.

If you want diamonds, I'll introduce you to my ex. He's so tight, if you stuffed a lump of coal up his ass, you'd have a diamond in less than a week....

CaptCarl

mecch · « **Reply #46 on:** March 17, 2011, 09:53:23 pm »

I love fake rocks: rhinestone drag queen bling and vintage Main Line paste.

lost_boy · « **Reply #47 on:** March 28, 2011, 07:18:34 pm »

wow this thread went rapidly OT

I think it does demand a bit of respect for the other person - I know I'd have wanted/still want a potential partner to disclose beforehand. Yes, it's a very big ask but that's what being grown up is all about!

[boo what a boring post I just wrote]

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Author Topic: At what level of intimacy do you disclose? (Read 12725 times)