Malaysian Jet Shot Down in Ukraine: 295 Dead

[tednlou2]

Lets be clear. The last few presidents' foreign policies have been total failures. Bush was a fool and an idiot, with the disaster war of choice in Iraq, and Obama's has been laughable. Obama seems totally detactched and out of touch and he alwas seems behind the curve on major events. As far as Hillary Clinton, I'm not clear on anything she accomplished as Secretary of State. As an Independent Progressive, I've been extremely troubled by the total  failurres in leadership during the last two preidents tenures and neither did anything to counter or articlate to the world how dangerous Russia is.

We need war crimes charges brought against those who shot down the plane, heavy targeted sanctions against Russia, and putting missile defense back in Europe to protect our allies and deterring Russia from invading any other countries.

The world is getting disastrous and Russia is run by thugs. Obama set red lines in Syria and didn't follow through and Moscow took notes and took Crimea. And Putin snickers at Obama because he knows he can basically do what he wants and Obama won't do anything. All talk no actions.

Do we have the moral authority for that, when Bush and Cheney were never brought up on war crimes?  There were never even calls for impeachment, when we hear those every day for Obama doing healthcare.  Cheney is invited on every Sunday morning show, as if he has any credibility.  Many atrocities were made by our country and Blackwater. 

President Obama was right on Syria.  Their chemical weapons have now been (or may still be in process) removed. We got it done, without any of our soldiers killed.  As I said earlier, people like John McCain wanted us to arm Syrian Rebels with the same hardware as the Russian rebels.  It often comes back to bite us, when we do those kinds of things.  They could be used against us or our friends.  They could have shot down a commercial plane, with our weapons.  Although, America would be given a pass for that.  Putin would have done Crimea, regardless. 

Europe has put economic interests over punishing Putin.  Europe needs to do something.  They've taken a huge loss here, so we will see what they do. 

[zach]

right or wrong, russia cannot and will never give up the the kerch strait. half of their naval fleet is on the other side of it, and would be cut off from the black sea and mediterranean. this will lead to a world war if mishandled.

again, the action was wrong, but what in the hell was a commercial aircraft doing flying over a war zone? i know for fact that most carriers have been diverting around that airspace. why malay air hasn't is beyond my understanding

[tednlou2]

I've heard 18 other planes had traveled that same route on that day.  And, many more than that in the week.  But, you're right.  A flight ban should have been made.  They just told jets to fly above 22,000 feet.  Those missiles can reach 23,000 feet (obviously) and higher.  I've heard different arguments that the skies are crowded to it would add thousands of dollars to their fuel cost and they would have to pay the countries they fly over.  I wonder how many international travelers are now asking where exactly the plane flies.  Is it over any war zones?

Since this is in Living, David Gregory interviewed Dr. Fauci LIVE from Australia, on Meet the Press.  They discuss the colleagues lost, which now appears to be 6 and not 108.  Dr. Fauci said his good friend who perished would always say, "If we can get Coca-cola into many parts of Africa, then we can surely get HIV meds."  They went on to discuss the goals of the conference, which mainly focused on getting more people into treatment. 

[mecch]

Why not wait until an investigation before saying that Russia and Putin are the responsible parties....  I mean, I'm thinking most of the so called super powers, and CERTAINLY the usa, provide/sell/traffic arms to the miscellaneous "rebels" they currently favour.  The USA didn't slap around Saudi Arabia but it was clear SA funded Al-Qaeda and its terrorism that cost the US so many lives.

I mean its a bit hypocritical. 

Early signs seem to point that Russian made missile launchers arrived the day or day before this missile attack. It looks like the pro-russian separatist either made a colossal mistake, or purposefully if rather inexplicably shot down a civilian airliner...  Shouldn't the first finger pointing go at this band of "separatists" and, then, yah, by extension Russia for "supplying" weapons.  I consider it far-fetched and also convenient to name Putin as the culprit, when it was probably some dimwit half-trained yahoos...

[mecch]

Ukrainian officials and news sites published images and footage allegedly showing the presence of at least one Buk SA-11 in a town near the crash site. The sophistication of the weaponry needed to bring down a plane at the height at which MH17 was flying makes it, Kerry said, "pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia into the hands of separatists." U.S. officials said Sunday that there was also evidence that the rebels had attempted to move the missile system back to Russia after the MH17 crash.

emphasis added


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/20/the-evidence-that-may-prove-pro-russian-separatists-shot-down-mh17/



Here is the dimwit murderer, it seems:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11295584

He was fine to take down an airliner, reporters claim, because he thought it was Ukranian... 

Igor Girkin, who also goes by the nom de guerre Strelkov, is reported to have claimed that his forces shot down a plane in the Donbass region of eastern Ukraine at 5.50pm (GMT+4), shortly before reports emerged the passenger jet was missing.

"We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured," he is reported to have said.

[RobbyR]

Yea the evidence is pretty obvious at this point. Russia started this horrendous crisis by invading Ukraine and annexing Crimea, and pouring their arms and weaponry into East Ukraine, along with technical advisors and probably Spetsnatz members of the Russian Special Forces & the FSB. The purpose was to support anti-Ukranian, pro-Russian sentiment in East Ukraine. Putin will never allow Ukraine to be fully united member of the West. Far East Ukraine is mostly Russian speakers and have deep religious/ethnic ties to Moscow unlike West Ukraine.

Eventually Ukraine will probably be divided into a loose weak confederation, with the east controlled by Moscow and the west pretty much independent and pro-Europe.

But Russia is totally responsible for the shoot down of MH17 because the created the conditions that caused this crime by arming the pro-Russian rebels in East Ukraine and sending in the heavy weapons like the BUK missile system that likely brought the airplane down.

It's clear who did it, whether the rebels ordered b Russian Special Forces pulled the trigger, or an actual member of the Russian military did, they did it.

Now we have to get clear on what can be done about it. In the next few days world leaders will probably continue calling out this atrocity for what it is, and demand that the site be protected. But at this point Russia has pretty much gotten and hidden every thing they think is incriminating. They'll probably do what they always do..just like with their horrendous anti-gay laws..lie, lie, and try and cover up the truth.

[Theyer]

Sorry Grasshopper.

RIP all the dead

Peace to the love ones off the innocent dead.




Putin May your dreams sicken you nightly.

[Grasshopper]

I am shaking writing this : My nextdoor neighbours were on that flight. This morning I dropped them off at the airport. I have their housekey to feed the cats.
The parents were here a moment ago, and now gone to the airport for information.
This is sick sick sick,  I have to stop shaking.  Such nice and sweet people 32 & 34yrs old

I've been following the news since last fall.....fearing what became reality today.

[Grasshopper]

I am aware that this has nothing to do with Living with HIV.

[Palliate]

Question for MODs:  why is this topic in the Living With HIVforum?

[Jim Allen]

It's from 2014 ... Before my time on this forum, so I can only presume it was simply overlooked. If you have any concerns about a thread/post on the forum you can use the "Report to moderator" function or send a PM.