My Betty Crocker Boyfriend

[thunter34]

I've been off from the forums for the last day or so - returning to regular life and business at hand.  And also getting a little time in on the John front.  And I think I've done some reevaluation about the prospects of that relationship.  Don't get me wrong: there haven't been any fights or fallings out.  It's just that as we've moved along, I'm getting a better perspective on who he is and what he brings to the table.  And I've come to see that when he's there, he's fantasticly fun and loving.  He's considerably younger than me and brings out a more youthful side that has been in sleep mode ever since my diagnosis.  I'm playful when I'm around him in a way that I haven't been in years now, and that feels very good.  And the boy knows how cuddle up and smooch like nobody's business.  Like I said:  when he's there, he's terrific.  But when he's not there...well, he's just not there. 

He just doesn't offer a lot of follow through on the maintainance or nurturing that any sort of long term relationship will require, and I chalk a lot of that up to the age thing.  I was wise enough to expect that to be the case at the outset.  The weeks have just confirmed that yes, that's going to be the case.  Lord knows I am not a phone queen.  I don't do a lot of chit chat that way.  Still, an occasional "touch base" in between times is a good thing, and that just ain't happening with John.  And that absence can be really palpable at times.  I heard not a peep from him - not once - during this past weekend's med change.  And to me that's a pretty big deal.  I mean - yes, it went off without a hitch.  I wasn't sick or fatigued from it.  I didn't have any bad reactions to it.  It all went great.  But he didn't know that.   

This just underscores another issue that I've known from the beginning: the serodiscordant thing.  Me being positive may not be an issue to John...but it is to me in many respects where potential relationships are involved.  I've learned about myself that "touch base" maintainance has assumed a higher priority with me as a consequence of aging and HIV.  And though I try to remain vigilent about not falling into the trap of seeing myself as "tainted", I've come to recognize that there is some residue of that initial feeling still there.  In this situation where the other is negative, I confess that there's a nagging sensation of "waiting for the other shoe to drop"...for some other prospect to come along without the health issues, for some OI to come along that might make it "too much to handle"...all that.  And so I'm starting to think that, for me, any long term prospect might really have to be with a poz boy at this point.  I don't know if I am ever going to be able to feel completely at ease with a sercodiscordant relationship.  It isn't so much about not sharing my virus with a partner - I know the steps to take to prevent that.  It is more about not being able to share my virus with my partner.  I think to be completely able to "let go" into a relationship, I am going to have to have the confidence that can only come from the comfort in knowing that I have a partner who "gets it".  One who knows what meds changes mean, or what it is to have frequent doctors appointments, blood draws, concern over "blips" and watching for trends, having to be more precautious about choices and behavior, what it is to have a life long - and still potentially fatal - disease.

The game has changed for me, and I need someone who is playing what I am playing.

That said, John and I are still going to be dating.  (And we haven't had any "talk" about this business yet...I'm spilling it now live here for you folks first to vent it and to crystalize it for myself as I write it.)  I still have fun with John and he is a wonderful, wonderful man.  It's just that I think the long term prospects just might not be there - just because they aren't, ya know?  So meantime, I guess I've still got a pretty good thing going for myself.  I have gotten what I have so often said that I wished I had:  a Betty Crocker Boyfriend.  One that can be readied without too much fuss when those hunger pangs of lonliness creep in.  More than just a run of the mill "fuck buddy", the affection he brings make him a sort of "boyfriend snack" that satisfies, but not something I'll plan to base an emotional and spiritual life-long diet around.  Hope that little analogy makes sense and doesn't come off too corny - or dismissive sounding of John.  He is - and will be -  a long-term friend and someone who breathed life into a part of me that has been smothered for far too long.  And who knows?  In time, I may reevaluate this yet again - but I know myself pretty darn well, and my hunch is that this is going to be what it is going to be.

It may not be the grand prize in the love lottery, but it's won me enough to want to keep playing.

Love and Stuff,

T

[AndyArrow]

Great post and thanks for sharing. 

I'm sorry things are working out exactly how you wanted them to but it's good if you find out sooner rather than later.  And as you said who knows how things will progress.  He might start to mature very quickly (You cradel robber!!)

I'm really trying to understand the analogy ... so a f/bud is like a microwave dinner ... your guys is a Betty Crocker meal ... and a long-term is what a slow cooker?  (Hugs! ... I have such a warped sense of humor)

Best of luck with everything, Cutie!  You're cute, but I still miss cartoon Timmy.  He was a hottie 

AA

[thunter34]

I'm really trying to understand the analogy ... so a f/bud is like a microwave dinner ... your guys is a Betty Crocker meal ... and a long-term is what a slow cooker? 

Yes, I'd say a long-term generally presents as a Crock Pot.

[AndyArrow]

Aren't you the little punster!  I like it!

[Miss Philicia]

Uh... how old is this individual anyway?  I also need visuals.

As far as the other stuff -- shit happens.  The serodiscordant thing works for some, and I sure gave it my all for three years but I eventually had to take the old axe to him because he just wasn't "getting it" -- and really he was as perfect as it got initially with the subject of HIV.  He'd dated other guys with it, etc. and wasn't at all freaked out by it in the sack.  It's just that on a mental level I think he overly tried to minimize the subject, thinking that it would keep from whining overly about health issues.  But you know, sometimes we need to whine... though I do agree with not whining too much, and he did teach me about that... along with all of his trite Nigerian habits of repeatedly telling me I didn't have one iota of knowledge about true suffering and to STFU.  Bastard.

I don't know if I could have a relationship with another negativo.  I guess if I met one by chance I'd give it the ole college try, but it's not something I really desire to repeat again.  Then again, I just don't plain date anyone as it is so this whole discussion on my end is full of bullshit.

Carry on.

[Buckmark]

Tim,

I'll preface this all with the disclaimer that only you know what works and doesn't work
for you in terms of a relationship, and that there is no right or wrong approach.

That said, the lack of follow-through is notable, at least to me.  That may be just
youth, as you have described.  But you were going through a pretty significant
time transition meds, and I certainly would have checked in with someone going
through anything that significant.  Being both negative and youthful, he may
not view this as significant.  Or, perhaps he is trying not to come on too strong. 
Or he may be trying too hard not too focus on your positive status.  The
best way to find out, of course, is to talk with him about it.  If it is significant enough
for you to post here, then it is significant enough for you to have the conversation
with him.

Regarding serodiscordant relationships, I too have had a hard time feeling completely
at ease with someone who is negative.  Part of it is the whole "waiting for the other
shoe to drop" thing (i.e. OIs, etc.), and that being too much for a neggie to handle.
But, as time goes each of you will likely find or experience other things with each other
that is unexpected or disappointing.  In a good relationship, each of you will be able to
deal with these things (HIV included), and move on.  And it is not too much for you to
ask for someone to be able to deal with these things.

My personal opinion is that a poz guy would be able to deal better, and that would
certainly be my preference -- though also try to keep my mind open to the possibility
of a neggie.   There's nothing wrong with wanting a poz guy (or a neg guy).  But I do
sometimes feel that neggies sometimes try too hard to prove they are ok with a
pozzie, and likely pozzies sometimes try too hard to prove they are ok with a neggie.
If you have a preference, that's fine.

Your thoughts seem sounds to me:  you've identified something that is missing in the
relationship, but it's not a "deal-breaker" at this point, so you're going to keep dating him,
enjoy being together, and are open to the possibility that things may change as time goes on. 
Don't ignore your hunch about John -- that would be unwise.  But it sounds like you're not
going to let it prevent future possibilities.  As time goes on, you'll know when it is the right
time to takes things up (or down) to the next level.

I do understand your use of the term "Betty Crocker" boyfriend, but I'd suggest you not
use that term if / when you have a conversation with him.  Oh, and are you sure he is
not one of the guests lurking in these forums?   

Hugs,

Henry
(who could really go for a big slice of "boyfriend snack" right about now)

[Miss Philicia]

Oh, and I hate to indulge my HIV Lifestyle© but at this point I'm not even sure if I can date just "any" HIV+ person.  Clearly simply from numerous examples on this web board there are MANY that are no more adept at handling HIV issues than the negative kids... such is life.  At this point I'm thinking I need to have a relationship (if I decide I want one, which isn't a sure bet) with another LTS-er.

I get feeling that there's an internal serosorting of a different sort even within the HIV community.  You know, the boys that have never dealt with an OI or don't have any lipo don't wish to fuck with the other side of the coin... that sort of crap.  Frankly I find this even more annoying than stuff one might deal with from a negative person, but I digress.

[Lisa]

Sounds like you've done a fair inventory of things. As long as you go into this with eyes wide open, you'll be OK.
He may just be a good time charley, but please be cautious, cause I don't wanna have to come down there and stomp his ass. 

[Jeff G]

 thunter , I have come to the conclusion that you are a beautiful man , inside and out .
 You have also given me allot to think about here . Thanks for sharing .

[mjmel]

Lordy.
Enjoy then, the Betty Crocker's just a "cupcake" boyfriend--and just lick the icing off the top. That's how your analogy reads, to me.
He's younger and not HIV+ and therefore doesn't even have a clue what to anticipate regarding you and the meds. That kind of support could come with time or you could open up and let him know you'd welcome that support.
He likely looks up to you--so therefore you are perceived as the strong one. I bet you even give off that vibe when you are with him.

Might you be rationalizing this relationship to it's finale? Are you using your excellent skills of the written word to say you don't wish to leave your comfort zone and take a risk of being disappointed later.........so you scribe away...eloquently saying "It won't work, anyway."

Goodness, Tim, your heart is not made of delicate glass. It's made of good quality stuff. Holds it's own.
Through laughter, through tears, through love, through losses, through HIV, throughout life.

Big Hug,
Mike

[Oceanbeach]

Timmy Dear,

The last time I saw my mom before she passed away, she asked me to stop being a "status date", find some nice man and settle down.  That was over 20 years ago and I continued to date exciting and handsome men until my phone stopped ringing (12 years ago/AIDS diagnosis).  I remember listening to a man in my first "living With HIV Support Group in L.A.,  He was a long term survivor in 1994 and credited his survival with finding a lover after being diagnosed with HIV.  I thought it would be the same for me so I grabbed the very first single gay man, I could find in a bar:

BF #1 was a serious mistake and lasted about a year because I had a disability income and HOPWA.  Did you know 2 people could live on nothing as easily as 1?

BF #2 chose me from the bar and his true love of his life had died in his arms (probably 7 years earlier).  I haven't seen him in 8 years and took his pictures down a couple of years ago.

BF #3 is a member of the Bar and is affected by all the friends and family who have died of AIDS.  We have agreed to not talk about HIV for awhile.

The one thing these three men have in common is they are HIV -.  Well that and having loved me for one reason or another.    I worked very hard to get rid of BF #1 and equally hard to keep BF #2.  It had been said that I could charm the pants off a snake 

Having chronicled nearly every step in meeting Walter and getting to the second date, was hard work.  I am happy to have had these Forums to "talk".   The dating site was always throwing in just over 200 profiles in the search and I blocked over 500 profiles just to get to those who would be more likely to be compatable.  I sent 5 intro greetings to men within 50 miles.  To Walter, I said: "Hi my name is Michael... I'm bold, brash and obnoxious in public, would you like to meet?"  I heard from him the next day and now everyday. 

During my last Lab follow up with my doctor, we spoke of Me, Walter and serodiscordant relationships.  Doctor felt there was a normal relationship in the making and Walters involvement with my HIV is not important right now.  If I may be so bold as to pass on some advice...  Betty Crocker makes some good products and if you like this John, you should go for it.  Have the best day
Michael

[bocker3]

Hey Tim,

I'm a firm believer in staying in tune with my "gut" on things.  However, I have to ask -- have you talked to him about the areas that you wish were different -- like the not checking in during your med change (which, I agree is a big deal).  It may be that he's young and things like that don't occur to him -- but maybe if you tell him how these things are important he can meet your needs.  I'm not saying this because I think you should do anything differently then you feel, but if you haven't shared your concerns with him, you might just be missing out "the one".
Over the years, I've gone through a few "cycles" with my partner, where I feel we aren't clicking, aren't needs are different, etc.  I usually stay like that until I finally stop having both sides of the conversation in my own head and actually talk.  It hasn't been a perfect relationship (ergo, I became positive during our relationship), but I simply can't imagine my life without him -- we are approaching 18 yrs.
Oh yeah -- the age thing is interesting -- I'm almost 9 yrs younger than Sid, but I'm the one who is better with checking in and all that.  So, it really isn't necessarily about age (although, I don't know him, and only know you through your posts here, so take it all with a grain of salt.)  Also, we are serodiscordant -- it definitely has it's challenges and is not the same as your situation because we were together long before our serodiscordancy (is that even a word??).  He can't really "get it" and I certainly don't want him to be able to -- so I have a very close "poz" friend that gives me that connection.  He tries his best and usually follows my lead as to how much or little to talk about my virus.
Bottomline, you have to listen to your inner voice, but just check and be sure that it is your true feelings and not a case of rationalizing yourself out of something good.  Talk to him and see how he reacts.
Best of luck.

Hugs,
Mike

[Desertguy]

"""""...but it is to me in many respects where potential relationships are involved.  I've learned about myself that "touch base" maintainance has assumed a higher priority with me as a consequence of aging and HIV.  And though I try to remain vigilent about not falling into the trap of seeing myself as "tainted", I've come to recognize that there is some residue of that initial feeling still there.  In this situation where the other is negative, I confess that there's a nagging sensation of "waiting for the other shoe to drop"...for some other prospect to come along without the health issues, for some OI to come along that might make it "too much to handle"...all that.  And so I'm starting to think that, for me, any long term prospect might really have to be with a poz boy at this point. """""

Tim

I think I can relate to what you are saying and what you do say is touching.  I have dated several - woman as soon as I told them I was + they either ran or acted like they understood but really didn't.  Most didn't understand the maintaince thing that you speak about, they don't undstand the health issue such as sleep, eating right and keeping in shape & the daily ritual of taking the Meds.  I have never been with somone my age so yes it does make me younger to be with a younger person.  I have met a woman who is + & 15 years younger so now I am getting the best fo both I think.  Have the Crock Pot with the Betty Crocker Cook Book to go along with it.  It is nice to have someone to help understand what I am going thru all the issues you mentioned.  As far as feeling tainted I actually feel blessed about it.  It has given me a new outlook on my life my daughters have accepted me as a + father & life goes on.  Also if I was not + I would have never met this wonderful person that is now in my life.
Yes you have a hard decision to make Betty Crocker or Crock Pot. But I think you are a wise and reasonable young man and will make the right choice that you feel that you need in your life.
You seem like a very like person and I think you will find the right man for you.  They seem to come along when you least expect it.

Anyway take care and best of luck to you.  Just remember that if you have a Crock Pot it is a slow cooker and takes time

Dennis

[thunter34]

thank you for that.  i'll respond more to your posts and others tomorrow, but i'm zonked right now.  time for bed.

[Robert]

Tim.

I think most of this has to do with what you call "touch base" maintainance.  Simple phone calls, staying in touch, is such an each thing to do but for some they just can't get a handle on it.  The bummer is, when you mention this to them, then they think you're 'needy' and nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm inclinded to think it's more this than  +- status of the relationship. 

robert

[Central79]

Dear Tim

Such a great post. But you've thought this stuff through and you have such clear ideas about things before you've even spoken to John that it worries me a bit. My boyfriend is negative and we also dated for a couple of years before I caught HIV so I understand where you're coming from with the serodiscordancy stuff.

I guess I'm concerned when somebody admits to sometimes buying into the stigma of HIV and then goes on to write about waiting for the other shoe to drop - because you've developed some further health problem that becomes too much for him to handle. I've often put my fear of being rejected at the beginning of a relationship, or indeed the relationship I'm in now, into the HIV. It becomes a vehicle for all other stuff that I think most people carry around when they start to care for somebody else and feel vulnerable.

I guess the other point I'd like to made is that you don't know what John's thinking. I think you should have a conversation with him before crystallizing any of these thoughts/fears into some concrete action you might regret. I would talk to him about the issue of contact - it may be that he thinks he was doing you a favour by giving you some space, or that he's scared, or that he doesn't want to upset you by being all over you and drawing attention to the fact you have HIV. Tons of good reasons. I don't think his youth precludes him being committed in the event that you should turn yellow, or get sick. I've learnt to complain when I'm unhappy with some aspect of my relationship - the way the other person responds tells you a lot more about what they're thinking than guessing. If, as Robert suggests, he calls you "needy" then that's certainly pretty informative.

I dated a few other poz guys after diagnosis before getting back with my bf. I found that just because we were both positive didn't mean we cared/worried about the same things. Most of them were much further on than me, and either supremely well adjusted (which I certainly wasn't), or dealing with some scary health problems such a kidney disease or fatigue. I think in practice it's not possible to find another poz guy with the same issues as you around being poz, who's at the same stage of the infection and who will progress at the same rate. I understand that there's a general thing there and the "tainted" feeling has been better for me with other poz guys but I think maybe people overstate it as a bit of a panacea.

Anyway, I remember reading your posts when you first met this guy and thinking how nice it sounded. I hope you don't stymie it in your head over some of your own baggage.

Good luck with it, whatever you decide to do.

Matt x.

[BT65]

I personally think it all depends on the other person's maturity.  The people I've been in relationships with since being diagnosed have been negative.  The reason things didn't work out wasn't because they 'couldn't handle' if I got sick.  It was because they were just assholes in everyday life, irregardless of me being HIV+.

[Miss Philicia]

Look, the bottom line is that Timberly had a major med change and the guy didn't even ask how it went.  This equals douchery, and the boy should be dispensed into the garbage can.  Move on folks.

Some of these posts are just so far out of my line of thought in their recommendations that I almost have to hurl.  I'm sorry to be so blunt, but then again perhaps this is why I'm always single.

[thunter34]

Look, the bottom line is that Timberly had a major med change and the guy didn't even ask how it went.  This equals douchery, and the boy should be dispensed into the garbage can.  Move on folks.

Some of these posts are just so far out of my line of thought in their recommendations that I almost have to hurl.  I'm sorry to be so blunt, but then again perhaps this is why I'm always single.

Well, there's the rub.   Yeah, this to me = douchery.  But then when I get with him, it's like I hung the moon.  He's in his twenties, btw - a good decade younger than I am.  But old enough to know better.  Thing is, I've largely analyzed this and given it this new evaluation not so much to write it off prematurely, but to maybe help me take the pressure off of it for myself.  Maybe I can get myself to let go of this "waiting for the other shoe" thing if I can convince myself to stop worrying so much about what might happen with it and just enjoy it in the moment.  I kinda went over this with some mutual friends who basically told me, "Well, get used to it.  That's how John is.  He's there, he's not."  On the other hand, they also said that he usually isn't very affectionate with anyone at all - and that the way he attaches to me is unlike anything they've ever seen him do before.  That assessment from them made me feel somewhat better about the whole thing in that I was relieved to know it wasn't a "me" thing, but an established trait of his.  But it's also made me stop and take inventory of myself - and I question how much of that sort of thing I will tolerate no matter how good the face-time lovin' is...especially in light of the +/- thing.  I used to be able to roll with that type of deal, but I'm thinking the process of maturing plus diagnosis have changed me into the kind of guy who won't be able to hang

There's other posts on here I should respond to, but I probably need to reread them first.  Lost my net connection for most of last night due to some really cool spring thunderstorms that came through, so I haven't touched in on this thread much in the last 24. 

[Miss Philicia]

I used to be able to roll with that type of deal, but I'm thinking the process of maturing plus diagnosis have changed me into the kind of guy who won't be able to hang

Oh yeah.  My tolerance for BS dropped mightily the further along I went down the HIV road.  Either that or I've just become even more of a Bitter Old Cow than I've always been, which is a lot.

[bear60]

 I heard not a peep from him - not once - during this past weekend's med change.  And to me that's a pretty big deal.  I mean - yes, it went off without a hitch.  I wasn't sick or fatigued from it.  I didn't have any bad reactions to it.  It all went great.  But he didn't know that.    quote Tim
.......................
I dont know Tim....maybe he does not think of you as SICK. And why should he...you kiss real good and you seem to be doing well.  I wonder if you told him that you needed him to call....that it was important to you and that you were worried about the med change.  If you left it up to his intuition...maybe he hasnt developed his yet.  I think mine did not start coming into its own until I hit 50.
 
"But then when I get with him, it's like I hung the moon."  quote Tim

Sounds like its worth it to me!

[Assurbanipal]

Look, the bottom line is that Timberly had a major med change and the guy didn't even ask how it went.  This equals douchery, and the boy should be dispensed into the garbage can.  Move on folks.

Some of these posts are just so far out of my line of thought in their recommendations that I almost have to hurl.  I'm sorry to be so blunt, but then again this is why I'm always single.

I'm not sure that its fair to assume that a young neg guy really gets the idea of a major med change.  With lot of conditions, medications have limited or few side effects -- the idea that you are waiting to see if you turn yellow or worse is just an idea that I don't think people intuitively get . . . especially in their 20's.  At any rate, there appears to be mainly upside from a frank discussion.

Hope things go well

Assurbanipal ( 4000 year old romantic at heart)