HIV & Dry Skin - Useless Study!

[northernguy]

Bit of a rant here.  Noticed on the opening page the medical study which drew the "stunning" conclusion that HIV & Dry Skin often go hand in hand.  Well, no shit Sherlock   I'm afflicted by this and a simple google search reveals skin issues are a common problem for those of us with HIV.  25 years into the epidemic someone felt spending money on this kind of study was worthwhile? 

What really burned my bacon was the last line "Because the study was not designed to identify the cause(s) of dry skin in people with HIV, researchers could not make prevention or treatment recommendations."   How very useful.

Article: https://www.poz.com/article/hiv-dry-skin-13108-3662

[Cliff]

Treatment recommendation: Use lotion or moisturising cream.  Bath in oil and avoid harsh soaps.  If all else fails, deal with it.

$150 please.

[Miss Philicia]

Have you still had no progress with this problem since you began posting about it?  I know we've exchanged some PM's about this issue in the past.  Exactly what has a dermatologist said?  Have you gone to more than one to make sure they're not incompetent?  What did they prescribe for it and how did that work?  What over the counter stuff have you tried?  What cleansers to you use daily?  What moisturizer?

Also, so everybody doesn't have to go research this number please post your most current lab numbers.  The lower your CD4 the harder it is to deal with this issue I've found.

[wishihadacat]

I'm sure you already know this, but it may help if you drink more water. Since I upped my water intake to 80-120 fluid ounces/day, my skin is less dry.  You should also use a good moisturizer, particularly in extreme weather conditions.  It won't protect against flaky people, but it will help your flaky skin.

[Miss Philicia]

If the skin is flaky you need to exfoliate first and REMOVE the flakes before putting on a moisturizer.  I hate to say it but this is Beauty Tips 101, and if HIV is making problems worse you need to do all of it on a daily basis.  If you do not exfoliate your just moisturizing flakes.  Seborrhoeic Dermatitis is caused by a yeast and it causes then thrives in dry skin, namely those very flakes of dry skin.

Also, once you start using prescription salves on it you can't expect instant results.  You have to use it religiously for a month to even several months to see results.

[Ann]

It won't protect against flaky people, but it will help your flaky skin.

Wish, if you find a drink that protects against flaky people, let me know, please!



I've always had dry skin and it's only worsened since I've been poz. I agree that this study seems useless - it only tells us what we already know, without offering any solutions. How daft.

Dunno. Maybe they had to have the proof in an official study - as opposed to years of anecdotal experience - before they could obtain funding for studies designed to look for a solution?  ~shrug~

Is anyone aware of previous studies specifically looking at hiv and dry skin?

Ann

[Miss Philicia]

Is anyone aware of previous studies specifically looking at hiv and dry skin?

Ann

http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/InSite?page=kb-04-01-01

dig in the references part of this at the bottom, specifically connected with the seborrheic dermatitis section as this occurs in 83% of HIVers with advanced HIV and 42% with symptomatic HIV disease.  Whatever the real numbers it's way more than the average 5% of the general public that has this.

[StrongGuy]

It does suck -- I had to deal with it and after trying all the strong scripts (useless - except for cortisone creams which I didn't want to use often because long term it thins out your skin) I found using coal tar shampoos work. It kept the flakiness under control (mostly my scalp and spots on my face) under control very well. Worth a shot. I still use the shampoo once a week, though I noticed as my CD4s have risen the flakiness is all but gone.

It does suck and I also have to agree why this is mentioned a lot more as seems to be pretty common amongst us.

[Miss Philicia]

I've discussed it before on here, but I'll say it again.  While I've used prescription salves on the offending skin areas during an intensely acute period of the manifestation, you MUST find a product that is less harsh to use on a DAILY basis.  You can't simply wait with this issue and only attack it when it gets bad.  It has to be done regularly as a preventive measure.

I've found that facial cleansers with glycolic acid work best, and was recommended this route for an early LTS about 7 years ago who is unfortunately no longer with us on Earth.  The word "acid" sounds harsh, but the amount of glycolic acid is minimal, and effectively removes the top layer of dry flaky skin.  The brand I use is very natural and also contains marine plant extracts like spirulina and seaweed.  One you use the cleanser DAILY you can lightly apply a moisturizer.

If you're using regular old soap to clean your face you're just making your skin drier probably, and compounding the problem.

[Ann]

Thanks, Philly, I thought there'd been plenty of studies, but didn't have time to look. (plus I'm tired, was in Liverpool yesterday)

Ann

[pozattitude]

That has been one of the things I noticed right away (dry itchy skin)  but no one has a good answer.  I get it really bad on my elbows, so bad it looks like a severe case of  psoriasis  .
I use Dove unscented soap and Gold Bond Ultimate Healing Lotion and it helps.  I'm just too lazy to exfoliate though

Rich

[allanq]

It helps to keep the showers short, with water that isn't very hot.

Like Rich, I've found that Dove unscented soap is easier on the skin than most other soaps.

AllanQ

[Tim Horn]

Hi Northernguy:

I just wanted to point out that the FRAM study is actually a massive cohort comparing HIV-positive to HIV-negative people, looking at a variety of parameters, including body-shape changes (lipodystrophy), cardiovascular risk, diabetes, and a slew of other health complications. It is actually proving to be one of the most important ongoing studies in the U.S. -- despite the fact that antiretroviral therapy is supposed to "normalize" our health, the FRAM study continues to show that HIV-positive people are still more likely to suffer from a variety of health problems. Better understanding the prevalence of these problems, especially among a large group of people on antiretroviral therapy, can guide additional research.

You've received some good advice here... and here's hoping that additional research will provide even better information.

Tim Horn 

[redhotmuslbear]

The greatest wisdom from my maternal grandmother who grew up in Depression Ear southeastern Oklahoma:  exfoliate, moisturize, and stay out of the sun.  What great words to give a seven year old budding homosexual!

Exfoliating can be as simple as using a bath brush daily.  I've always taken very good care of the skin on my face and neck, using an exfoliating scrub twice a week.  Yet, I would get scaly patches on my elbows, knees and ankles.  I started with the back brush about seven years ago to combat ingrown hairs and breakouts on my back, but the most immediate result was the clearning of the dry patches.  Always use a moisturizing soap of some kind, and always rub down with lotion after showering...... if only I can find one of the cute boys in the locker room to rub my back when I switch morning gyms to my weekend gym next week with my job change!

Namaste,
David

P.S.  Amen to the water thang, too!  And don't kid yourself by counting anything with caffeine in the water category--you should subtract it from your total liquid consumed since caffeine acts as a diuretic.

[HealthyMomma]

What a waste of time and money. Dry skin?! Hello...HIV/AIDS....and all we can study is dry skin?

[Miss Philicia]

What a waste of time and money. Dry skin?! Hello...HIV/AIDS....and all we can study is dry skin?

Would you feel the same way if your face was so itchy and red that you didn't leave the house for months at a time? Have you even dealt with seborrheic dermatitis yet? The thread title about "dry skin" is misleading, but due to nothernguy's previous posts on the subject and what he's been dealing with I knew what he was referring to.

here's what it can look like:

http://images.google.com/images?num=20&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&resnum=0&q=seborrheic+dermatitis&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

This is along the same lines of saying there should be no studies about lipodystrophy.  It's a quality of life issue for many people.

[wishihadacat]

David has it right about the caffeine - if you have dry skin, avoid caffeine (sorry, Starbucks fans) in anything, including soda, tea, etc., and drink that water!

As far as moisturizers go, I've had good results with Cetaphil, but as we all know, it depends on your skin type.

[Moffie65]

I haven't totally conquered dry skin, but I am aware that the skin is healed from the inside out in most cases.  What I have done in this case, and with great success I must say, is to increase my intake of "healthy" fats, such as olive oil and staying away from hydrogenated oils at all costs.  YES, I realize that with high triglycerides that one is not supposed to be indulging in fats, but my doctor instructed me to keep on doing what I am already doing as he has seen a marked increase in the healthiness of my skin, and overall health.  My triglycerides hover in the 500 range and have done so since '96 when they were measured at 2200, when I started PIs. 

Living in the Arizona dry desert climate, I have always included a healthy dose of fats to keep ahead of the dry skin, and I shower daily, and used to use Dove, but have since moved to the liquid body wash.  I have also noted that hard water intensifies this annoying side effect, so if you can get a water softener installed it will help immensely.  In the winter I do use a lotion but it is a natural based one called "Udderly SMOOTH" Udder Cream.  It is meant to be used on cow's teats, but works wonders on dry skin naturally.  It is made by Redex Industries and can be found at www.uddercream.com or 1-800-345-7339.

Hope this helps.

Love,

[blondbeauty]

If I had known this before...I took Isotretinoin for my acne and oily skin for 9 months with fair results and had to stop it due to the side effects. Even with HIV I think my skin is still quite oily and I am already 39 y/o.

[keyite]

I've found that facial cleansers with glycolic acid work best, and was recommended this route for an early LTS about 7 years ago who is unfortunately no longer with us on Earth.  The word "acid" sounds harsh, but the amount of glycolic acid is minimal, and effectively removes the top layer of dry flaky skin.  The brand I use is very natural and also contains marine plant extracts like spirulina and seaweed.  One you use the cleanser DAILY you can lightly apply a moisturizer.

Philly, I am a little unclear whether you are recommending this type of cleanser for the face only or also for other parts of the body? Thanks.

[Miss Philicia]

Philly, I am a little unclear whether you are recommending this type of cleanser for the face only or also for other parts of the body? Thanks.

It's a facial cleanser.  Seborrhoeic dermatitis generally affects the scalp and face, though it can affect the body.  Most people on here at least generally complain about issues on their face, and that's the only place I've personally had issues.  If you are having these issues all over your body you REALLY need to see a dermatologist familiar with HIV issues.

I have had *some* slight dryness on my body (very little really), but I've found that's easily avoidable by using soap sparingly in odor offending areas.  People don't realize how drying commercial soaps are when used on a daily basis. 

Now that my lab number are +1,000 cd4s I've noticed pretty much all skin issues have resolved themselves, but I had very low numbers for 13 entire years and this was my experience with it.

[fearless]

I've had particularly dry skin all my life, that has only become more problematic with HIV.

For my face, I have a daily routine using Dermalogica products which seem to work best for me, but different products seem to work better for different folks. Trial and error to find the right products.

For my body generally. No commercial soap at all, except sparingly on my scruffy/smelly bits. Cool to warm showers only, if possible, as a hot shower breaks down the bodies natural oils (especially when combined with soap). I then use a reasonably priced moisturiser available in the supermarket each and every day.

The best tip I've ever had for dry skin on my body came from the Indian doctor I used to see as a kid. He gave me a list of soaps with a slightly acidic ph to use (most soaps are alkaline) which do help. But, he also told me to try using a small amount of olive oil and rub it into my skin after I shower. I don't do this everyday, but it really does help when the dryness on my body gets bad.

[Lisa]

Well poop! 
Moffie beat me to the udder balm ( it is almost pure lanolin), and Stevie beat me to the water temperature advice, as well as the use of Olive oil. All are stellar suggestions.
I really hope you are able to get some relief.


PS- have you been definatively ruled out for psoriasis?


That's it, the nails have to go! I've had to edit everything I've typed this evening.

[redhotmuslbear]

In the winter I do use a lotion but it is a natural based one called "Udderly SMOOTH" Udder Cream.  It is meant to be used on cow's teats, but works wonders on dry skin naturally. 

Since Moffie didn't go there, I will also note that Udder Cream works very well on agitated human nipples.  I keep it around to help a sub tolerate lengthy tit torture sessions by keeping his nips thoroughly lubricated.  As they dry with lubrication, the after-glow pain is heightened.

[Miss Philicia]

There is such a thing as olive oil soap.  I have some right now in my bathroom from Turkey.  They sell the stuff everywhere there and in Greece.

[BT65]

My feet have constant callouses on them.  I do have dry skin, which has become more problematic not only from the HIV, but also because I'm diabetic.  I've been warned against using a pumice stone on my feet, but I still do sometimes.  I used to use that udder cream on my daughter when she would get diaper rash and it worked beautifully!  I always put lotion on when I get out of the shower.  I use a Neutrogena facial soap and then I use a facial moisturizer.  I've never had psoriasis or seborrheic dermatitis.  I can only say good luck with that.  Sounds like there's some really good advice already.

[Basquo]

Amen to the unscented Dove boys!  I use it with a washcloth to exfoliate. I use a prescription cream 2-3 days a week, but try to limit it.  Udderly Smooth is great too.  Since my mom and aunt are Avon queens, they've turned me into one, too.  they're always giving me the Anew line, I think Mom wants me to be a case study.  They also have a "rough skin retexturizer that I use a couple of times a month for sandpaper elbow.

[Miss Philicia]

My feet have constant callouses on them. 

Mine too, but don't you have lipo issues like me?  I know that the soles of my feet were the first place I noticed fat loss on my entire body around 1996 or 7., way before my face and legs. I used to always walk barefoot on my hardwood floors and had to start wearing socks, then I had to go all the way up to flip flops.  Consequently all the calluses started and continue to this day.

[Jeff64]

What an idiotic study!

I have super dry skin and NOTHING makes it better.
Lotions are greasy and feel icky.

My skin has gotten much drier and ulcerations are appearing over and over...mt Dr. pretty much says "deal with it"

[northernguy]

Thanks everyone.  My frustration wasn't so much with my skin personally (good days & bad days) but as Ann points out, do we really need a study to point this out?  The figure of 85% as the number of HIV+ folks with seborrhea has been out there for years.  Thanks for the background on the study Tim, but honestly, at 25 years into this,why is it so hard to find out info on why this occurs and how to treat it?

I am encouraged by those who have had the skin issues go away with HAART.  Not sure how long I'll have to wait to start meds (I've added labs below), but at least that's one upside.

[aztecan]

I use an apricot scrub on my face to exfoliate. Then I moisturize with a sunscreen, usually Hawaiian Tropic SPF 70.

My dermatologist told me about a new product out that is less oily and won't run into my eyes, so I may try it.

My feet are so dry they drive me crazy. I am trying an oil/salt treatment to see if it helps.

I have heard of people using bag balm before. I may give it a shot, but not after a night at redhotmusclbear's place. 

HUGS,

Mark

[harles]

when iwas first tested positive i notice a quick change in my skin especially in the hand i was worried and the doctor told me to be drinking a lot of water, but i can notice any difference since then is even getting worstplease any useful advice.thanks

[David_CA]

I am encouraged by those who have had the skin issues go away with HAART.  Not sure how long I'll have to wait to start meds (I've added labs below), but at least that's one upside.

To be honest, that's one of the main improvements I've noticed since starting Atripla.  I started having skin 'issues' in early '05 (perhaps I can use that in saying I was infected pre-2005).  I had extremely dry skin on my neck and red cheeks and forehead.  Cortisone creams helped a lot, but didn't make the problems go away.  It was really frustrating.  It was only after testing HIV+ and starting meds 9 months later that I really even associated my skin problems with HIV.  I've always had oily skin, so it was a mystery to me.  I don't used Dove - it doesn't make me feel clean enough - and I scrub with a wash cloth.  I use moisturizer occasionally.  I'm sure living in the hot & humid South has helped some with the dry skin, too.  I agree with what some others have said about shampoo with coal tar; it really helped me pre-meds.  It does cause some sun sensitivity, I believe, so be careful when out in the sun.  Drinking lots of water did seem to help, too, as mentioned earlier.

David

[blondbeauty]

The best for dry skin is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjcLMVTW13A

[northernguy]

Since Moffie didn't go there, I will also note that Udder Cream works very well on agitated human nipples.  I keep it around to help a sub tolerate lengthy tit torture sessions by keeping his nips thoroughly lubricated.  As they dry with lubrication, the after-glow pain is heightened.

I think I'm coming over to your house for Skincare 101

[blondbeauty]

And for Friday nights...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vKv1CMKQsg